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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!


Duuhh! I was clipping the main stereo output buss, so was wondering
why Ozone 5 Maximizer wasn't doing too much! Thankfully it wasn't too
bad, so the client didn't notice anything....but after they left, I
compared their tracks to some store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.

I ended up Drop-boxing them the fixed tracks, so not a great loss.

Live and learn.....and PAY ATTENTION!!


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[email protected] thekmanrocks@gmail.com is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

On Monday, January 12, 2015 at 1:09:59 AM UTC-5, Paul wrote:
Duuhh! I was clipping the main stereo output buss, so was wondering
why Ozone 5 Maximizer wasn't doing too much! Thankfully it wasn't too
bad, so the client didn't notice anything....but after they left, I
compared their tracks to some store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.

I ended up Drop-boxing them the fixed tracks, so not a great loss.

Live and learn.....and PAY ATTENTION!!


__________

Levels, Levels, LEVELS!

(A lost art in this "Use Your
Ears!" century)
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Dave Plowman (News) Dave Plowman (News) is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clipping badly already!!!

In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.


You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 13/01/2015 3:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.


You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)



Since "store bought CD's" vary in both peak and average levels by up to
20dB depending on genre, label, era, mastering engineer etc. the whole
concept above is a joke, not just the reply. Surely the easiest way to
determine clipping these days is to simply look at the waveform in your
DAW? Flat tops are a definite give away!

Trevor.

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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 13/01/2015 4:58 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 3:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.


You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)



Since "store bought CD's" vary in both peak and average levels by up to
20dB depending on genre, label, era, mastering engineer etc. the whole
concept above is a joke, not just the reply. Surely the easiest way to
determine clipping these days is to simply look at the waveform in your
DAW? Flat tops are a definite give away!

Trevor.


Zoom out and see how 'solid' the timeline 'enve

Can be hugely compressed with no flat-tops at all.

geoff


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 13/01/2015 4:18 PM, geoff wrote:
On 13/01/2015 4:58 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 3:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.

You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)



Since "store bought CD's" vary in both peak and average levels by up to
20dB depending on genre, label, era, mastering engineer etc. the whole
concept above is a joke, not just the reply. Surely the easiest way to
determine clipping these days is to simply look at the waveform in your
DAW? Flat tops are a definite give away!


Zoom out and see how 'solid' the timeline 'enve

Can be hugely compressed with no flat-tops at all.



Well duh! Did you actually read what he wrote about "clipping badly"
before replying??

Trevor.


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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 1/12/2015 9:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.


You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)


How the Hell can anyone do THAT? :/

What you can do, is lower the peak-to-average ratio,
so that the overall average loudness level is much higher than normal.

At any rate, I pulled back my levels, so the main stereo buss
was not clipping (except for maybe one or two points in the song),
and properly used Ozone 5's Maximizer, with multiband compression,
and a little EQing and overall reverb, and the result was much better.




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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 13/01/2015 7:59 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 4:18 PM, geoff wrote:
On 13/01/2015 4:58 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 3:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.

You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)



Since "store bought CD's" vary in both peak and average levels by up to
20dB depending on genre, label, era, mastering engineer etc. the whole
concept above is a joke, not just the reply. Surely the easiest way to
determine clipping these days is to simply look at the waveform in your
DAW? Flat tops are a definite give away!


Zoom out and see how 'solid' the timeline 'enve

Can be hugely compressed with no flat-tops at all.



Well duh! Did you actually read what he wrote about "clipping badly"
before replying??

Trevor.




No, came in after that, it seems.

geoff
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 13/01/2015 8:44 PM, geoff wrote:
On 13/01/2015 7:59 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 4:18 PM, geoff wrote:
On 13/01/2015 4:58 p.m., Trevor wrote:
On 13/01/2015 3:10 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Paul wrote:
Thankfully it wasn't too bad, so the client didn't notice
anything....but after they left, I compared their tracks to some
store-bought CDs, and they were way too loud.

You managed to exceed 0dBFS? ;-)



Since "store bought CD's" vary in both peak and average levels by up to
20dB depending on genre, label, era, mastering engineer etc. the whole
concept above is a joke, not just the reply. Surely the easiest way to
determine clipping these days is to simply look at the waveform in your
DAW? Flat tops are a definite give away!


Zoom out and see how 'solid' the timeline 'enve

Can be hugely compressed with no flat-tops at all.



Well duh! Did you actually read what he wrote about "clipping badly"
before replying??



No, came in after that, it seems.


Not going to attack you, at least you are being honest, but it is still
right there in the header.
And FWIW, my pet hate is people who claim some commercial CD's are not
clipped just because they are normalised to -0.3dBFS, when you can
clearly still see all the flat tops. Not saying you are necessarily
claiming that, but IME most commercial CD's that have the bejesus
compressed out of them, also have severe clipping, even if they don't
actually reach 0dBFS. And as I said, it is all readily apparent what is
happening simply by *properly* examining the waveform in any DAW,
assuming of course they know what they are looking at. Many don't
unfortunately.

Trevor.




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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

Trevor wrote: "- show quoted text -
No, came in after that, it seems.


"Not going to attack you, at least you are being honest, but it is still
right there in the header.
And FWIW, my pet hate is people who claim some commercial CD's are not
clipped just because they are normalised to -0.3dBFS, when you can
clearly still see all the flat tops. Not saying you are necessarily
claiming that, but IME most commercial CD's that have the bejesus
compressed out of them, also have severe clipping, even if they don't
actually reach 0dBFS. And as I said, it is all readily apparent what is
happening simply by *properly* examining the waveform in any DAW,
assuming of course they know what they are looking at. Many don't
unfortunately.

Trevor. "


Agree, agree, and AGREE! A clip is a duck is a clip, whether it's
down at -2dBFs or kissing 0. And I'm tired of the hatred generated
by all the denialists on here, or at Gearslutz, etc.

They'll tell you "zoom out" of the waveform, the clipping "isn't really
there", or, "just use your ears"(a classic Shepherdism if ever I heard
one!).




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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clipping badly already!!!

Paul ~ Just a note ... there is an important difference between "your"
(something you own, for example) and "you're" (contraction of 'you are').
Someone had to say it.

--
~ Roy
"If you notice the sound, it's wrong!"
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 14/01/2015 1:10 a.m., Trevor wrote:



Well duh! Did you actually read what he wrote about "clipping badly"
before replying??



No, came in after that, it seems.


Not going to attack you, at least you are being honest, but it is still
right there in the header.


"If" and "Probably" .

And FWIW, my pet hate is people who claim some commercial CD's are not
clipped just because they are normalised to -0.3dBFS, when you can
clearly still see all the flat tops.


And my pet hate it people equated clipped peaks with hyper-compression.

geoff

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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

geoff wrote: "And my pet hate it people
equated clipped peaks with hyper-compression."


So you hate mixing up terms more than you
dislike the actual damage itself being done to
the music.


Classic denialism. smh..
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 14/01/2015 7:05 AM, geoff wrote:
On 14/01/2015 1:10 a.m., Trevor wrote:
And FWIW, my pet hate is people who claim some commercial CD's are not
clipped just because they are normalised to -0.3dBFS, when you can
clearly still see all the flat tops. Not saying you are necessarily
claiming that, but IME most commercial CD's that have the bejesus
compressed out of them, *also* have severe clipping, even if they don't

^^^^^^
actually reach 0dBFS.



And my pet hate it people equated clipped peaks with hyper-compression.


Well as I said they are two different things, but those who want the
absolute maximum level in their CD's often seem to use both. So IME the
loudness wars have lead to both hyper compression and the acceptance of
clipping as normal by not only the buying public but the mastering
engineers it seems. :-(

Trevor.



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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

Trevor wrote: "So IME the loudness wars have lead to
both hyper compression and the acceptance of
clipping as normal by not only the buying public but the
mastering engineers it seems. :-(

Trevor. "


I don't think the mastering engineers have "accepted"
clipping or hyper-compression per se. They do it as per
request of their clients(artists, producers, labels). If
an artist says, "Leave as much of the dynamics in
the mastered version as possible", most engineers
will listen to such requests and make it so. A la
'Chinese Democracy'.


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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 14/01/2015 1:03 p.m., Trevor wrote:



And my pet hate it people equated clipped peaks with hyper-compression.


Well as I said they are two different things, but those who want the
absolute maximum level in their CD's often seem to use both. So IME the
loudness wars have lead to both hyper compression and the acceptance of
clipping as normal by not only the buying public but the mastering
engineers it seems. :-(


I'd call the clipping more of a "poor person's exciter" ;-) , or should
that be ;-( .

geoff

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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 14/01/2015 7:16 PM, geoff wrote:
I'd call the clipping more of a "poor person's exciter" ;-) , or should
that be ;-( .


Definitely :-(

Trevor.


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Paul[_13_] Paul[_13_] is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 1/13/2015 6:36 PM, Trevor wrote:
On 14/01/2015 12:05 PM, wrote:
Trevor wrote: "So IME the loudness wars have lead to
both hyper compression and the acceptance of
clipping as normal by not only the buying public but the
mastering engineers it seems. :-(


I don't think the mastering engineers have "accepted"
clipping or hyper-compression per se. They do it as per
request of their clients(artists, producers, labels).


Of course, but it is also up to them to educate the customers where
possible. I know I have to do it all the time. Naturally you don't want
to turn away clients for the sake of principle however. And then they
simply get someone else to stuff up what you've already done anyway :-(


Oh, this is a big problem.

Even the customers want their mixes to be loud, Loud, LOUD!!!

I had one guy bring the just-burned CD to his car, and he
promptly compared it to an FM radio signal, which was no doubt
ultra-compressed with an Orban Optimod up the wazzoo! He them
complained that the mastered mix I just made was not as loud
as what was on the FM radio! Jesus, I had to give him a lecture
that you should really only compare to CDs, and even then, as the
other poster mentions, commercial recordings are also ultra compressed
as-is, anyways!



If
an artist says, "Leave as much of the dynamics in
the mastered version as possible", most engineers
will listen to such requests and make it so.


Of course, *IF* the artist has any say in it. It is usually the label
execs that are the biggest problem.

Trevor.


So I don't see the loudness wars going away...EVER.

Most bands want their songs to stick out.

Doesn't anyone want dynamic range in their songs anymore?




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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 14/01/2015 7:40 PM, Paul wrote:
So I don't see the loudness wars going away...EVER.

Most bands want their songs to stick out.

Doesn't anyone want dynamic range in their songs anymore?


Yes, but it's a fairly small percentage these days, and almost non
existent in the pop genres.

Trevor.




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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

Trevor wrote: "On 14/01/2015 7:40 PM, Paul wrote:
So I don't see the loudness wars going away...EVER.

Most bands want their songs to stick out.

Doesn't anyone want dynamic range in their songs anymore?


Yes, but it's a fairly small percentage these days, and almost non
existent in the pop genres.

Trevor. "


So my advice is, hold on to whatever UNremastered versions
one owns of pre-1990s pop/rock/rap/r&b/country - on CD or LP.

Show your grandkids someday the way recorded music used to
sound!
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

geoff wrote: "- show quoted text -
No. They are totally separate issues, though can be combined to
make an even worse mess.

This is one of the things that had been explained to you by many
people, ad nauseum, that you fail to comprehend.

geoff "


I know they are two different things geoff.

You just want to nit pick- I'm looking at the big pictu
All of these processes are leading to dynamically
compromised, ridiculously loud representations of our art.


And the labels and the public who buy music are so
conditioned to this "sound" that when they hear the
right way(pre-mid-1990s) it sounds 'wrong' to them.
Having to turn the the volume up past more than
1/10th of its range seems 'odd' to modern/young
listeners.


And geoff I know you're going to defend the modern(hyper-
squashed brickwalled, clipped whatever-term-you-want-to-
use, makeup-gained) way by asking "Who are you to
decide what sounds right or wrong?" Go ahead, I know
it's on the tip of your tongue(or fingers).
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clipping badly already!!!

"geoff" wrote in message
...
On 14/01/2015 11:54 a.m., krissie kretin @ kmail.com wrote:
geoff wrote: "And my pet hate it people
equated clipped peaks with hyper-compression."


So you hate mixing up terms more than you
dislike the actual damage itself being done to
the music.


So you hate learning, refuse to learn, and prefer to lie about what
other people believe.

Classic denialism. smh..


Classis necrohippophilia.

No. They are totally separate issues, though can be combined to make
an even worse mess.

This is one of the things that had been explained to you by many
people, ad nauseum, that you fail to comprehend.


It's not just that he fails to understand. He refuses to even try. He
prefers to be a retarded trolling toddler.


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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

geoff wrote: "On 15/01/2015 12:41 a.m., wrote:


And geoff I know you're going to defend the modern(hyper-
squashed brickwalled, clipped whatever-term-you-want-to-
use, makeup-gained) way by asking "Who are you to
decide what sounds right or wrong?" Go ahead, I know
it's on the tip of your tongue(or fingers).


Shows how much you know then. I had been complaining about
hyper-compression for years before it became your hobby-horse."

How the F- is the loudness war "my hobby horse"? WTF
does that mean?! Sheez, as if I was the only person in
this SOLAR SYSTEM opposed to it...


"Again, again, again, you can have hyper-compressed music with NO
clipping. You can have brick-wall limiting with little compression.
Make-up gain can be used with any level of compression (massive,
moderate, or minute compression).


geoff "

Agreed and perfectly understood. And I'm sure that there are
also examples of combinations of all the above available right on
retail shelves. To deny that hyper-compressed + clipped, or,
brick wall limited + compressed music exists doesn't make
sense either.
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

On Wednesday, January 14, 2015 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-6, wrote:


How the F- is the loudness war "my hobby horse"? WTF
does that mean?! Sheez, as if I was the only person in
this SOLAR SYSTEM opposed to it...


Well, you've given the *impression* that you think you're the only person in this solar system opposed to the loudness war. And that you think the rest of us don't care about it, or that we like it, or accept it.

I've been reading this newsgroup since the 1990s, and I can assure you that most of its longtime contributors are well aware of hyper-compression, and loathe it. Most of us have also realized that we're not really in a position to do much about it except in very limited circumstances.

There have been panel sessions on the "loudness wars" at AES meetings, and the loudness wars haven't gone away. I wish they would. (I just got done with pre-production on a radio segment, and a cut by a Cajun band I am planning to use is pure toothpaste. That from a folk label, no less. Sheesh.)

But as long as record company execs are nincompoops (which they've been since about, oh, 1901), the hyper-compressed recordings will keep coming out.

Peace,
Paul
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dumb **** k-baby @ gmail.com wrote in message
...
Agreed and perfectly understood.


You don't understand at all, and you'll be back next week, proving it
by riding that rotting corpse of a dead hobby horse.

You really are a dumb****, and you've proven, again and again, that
you either refuse to learn, or you're just too stupid. So which is it,
k-kretin?


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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probablyclipping badly already!!!

PStamler wrote: "But as long as record company execs are
nincompoops(which they've been since about, oh, 1901), the hyper-
compressed recordings will keep coming out. "

^This!

Computer - check!
Word processing software - check!
Printer on, paper loaded - check!
Envelopes stamped - check!!

Mount keyboard - ready, aim,

TYPE!!


Y'all know where to send your gripes to now.


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On Thursday, 15 January 2015 14:33:13 UTC+1, wrote:
PStamler wrote: "But as long as record company execs are
nincompoops(which they've been since about, oh, 1901), the hyper-
compressed recordings will keep coming out. "

^This!

Computer - check!
Word processing software - check!
Printer on, paper loaded - check!
Envelopes stamped - check!!

Mount keyboard - ready, aim,

TYPE!!


Y'all know where to send your gripes to now.


Thekma, man, you're so borring and aannoying.
I believe you're not that much stupid, as you make us all believe,
but, unfortunatelly, i do not have a proof.
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On Friday, January 16, 2015 at 11:54:28 AM UTC-5, Luxey wrote:
On Thursday, 15 January 2015 14:33:13 UTC+1, wrote:
PStamler wrote: "But as long as record company execs are
nincompoops(which they've been since about, oh, 1901), the hyper-
compressed recordings will keep coming out. "

^This!

Computer - check!
Word processing software - check!
Printer on, paper loaded - check!
Envelopes stamped - check!!

Mount keyboard - ready, aim,

TYPE!!


Y'all know where to send your gripes to now.


Thekma, man, you're so borring and aannoying.
I believe you're not that much stupid, as you make us all believe,
but, unfortunatelly, i do not have a proof.



Then you must be one of the record execs PStamler
referred to.
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the k-dumb**** @ shortbus.org wrote in message
...

.... the dumb**** ...

wrote"
Then you must be one of the record execs


.... and there's the dumb****'s hobby horse ...

Gee, Krissie Dumb****i, a few people had probably already forgotten
what a dumb**** you are. Thanks for the reminder! Krissie Dumb****i
the k-dumb****, confirming that you're a short-bus dumb****. Isn't it
time for you to "report" me to Gurgle, or Interpol or someone? No,
it's just time for you to step off the dumb**** short bus, and start
flogging that hobby horse again. Your dumb**** hobby horse.

In case there was any doubt, you confirm that you have no intention of
ever learning anything. Maybe you're just too much of a dumb**** to
learn.

Dumb****.



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wrote:

How the F- is the loudness war "my hobby horse"? WTF
does that mean?! Sheez, as if I was the only person in
this SOLAR SYSTEM opposed to it...


Lots of people are opposed to it, but most of them can also talk
about other things without constantly bringing it up in the middle
of totally unrelated discussions. You do not seem to be able to
talk about anything without bringing it up.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 1/17/2015 9:14 PM, John Williamson wrote:
M*3 fo**te*t.*No* *he**'s a*tho*g*t.





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For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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None None is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clipping badly already!!!

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
...
On 1/17/2015 9:14 PM, John Williamson wrote:
M*3 fo**te*t.*No* *he**'s a*tho*g*t.



WTF? lol! LOL! f-kn OMG.

smh.



Yes, it already writes in the lossy compression of two-thumbed broken
English. Very broken. And of course, there's the microcephalic "lossy
comprehension" reading ability.

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[email protected] thekmanrocks@gmail.com is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

hank alrich, Jeff Henig, Mike Rivers,
et al:

I understand a LOT MORE than you
BULLIES give me credit for. That's
right, now all that you guys are reduced
to, by your own behavior as evidenced
by your most recent replies to this
thread, are the proverbial jerks at the
back of the school bus!

Glad I didn't go to grade school with
any of you.
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Duuh!! If your Peak limiter has no effect, your probably clippingbadly already!!!

On 18/01/2015 5:48 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote:

How the F- is the loudness war "my hobby horse"? WTF
does that mean?! Sheez, as if I was the only person in
this SOLAR SYSTEM opposed to it...


Lots of people are opposed to it, but most of them can also talk
about other things without constantly bringing it up in the middle
of totally unrelated discussions. You do not seem to be able to
talk about anything without bringing it up.
--scott


A bit like people who drive and Audi. They always seem to be able to
drop an Audi reference into a discussion of almost any topic !

geoff
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