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John L Stewart John L Stewart is offline
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Smile Hum Reduction for DHT Power Stage

Steve Bench published an excellant cure for the AC DHT filament hum problem more than 10 years ago. See it at this link-

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/m...ch/humbal.html

Have to say I'm not in favor of running the filaments on DC. Just another complication to get in the way of reliability. Altho in some instances we gotta do to.

Cheers, John
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Alex Pogossov Alex Pogossov is offline
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Default Hum Reduction for DHT Power Stage


"John L Stewart" wrote in message
...

Steve Bench published an excellant cure for the AC DHT filament hum
problem more than 10 years ago. See it at this link-

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/m...ch/humbal.html

Have to say I'm not in favor of running the filaments on DC. Just
another complication to get in the way of reliability. Altho in some
instances we gotta do to.

Cheers, Joh


Though steve's method of hum compensation by injecting rectified (double
mains frequency) signal works, he is not (completely) right about the
mechanism of the hum second harmonic generation.

He attributes the 120Hz hum to the filament temperature modulation. Though
it might contribute in smaller tubes, the main cause is different -- it is
transconductance nonlinearity, the law of 3/2.

If at the pek of the AC filament voltage, say one end of the perfectly AC
balanced filament goes down by -3V and the second end goes up by +3V, the
emission current from the first end increases by a LARGER AMOUNT than
emission decreases on the second edge -- it is due to the nonlinear
current-vs-grid voltage characteristic (law of 3/2). So at the peaks of the
filament supply total emission is always higher. Thus we have a frequency
doubling effect.

This effect will be most pronounced if the tube is driven to cut-off.
According to Steve, at cut-off point there would be no plate current,
regardless of temperature modulation.

In reality, if one end of the filament goes negative, this end starts
conducting (emitting), and the other end is still not conducting (deeper
into cutoff). When the filament polarity reverses, the ends swap roles. So
at zero instantaneous filament voltage the trube is not conducting, but at
either peak one or the other end of the filament causes the plate current to
flow. In a way it is a frequency doubler using "anode-bend" effect.

To check which effect (temperature modulation or "anode-bend rectification")
contributes most, one needs to check the phase of the 2F hum. If it is in
phase with the mains -- it is anode bend effect, if it is delayed, it is
temperature modulation. Temperature is 90 degrees lagging behind because of
the thermal mass (inertia) of the filament.

Regards,
Alex


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patrick-turner patrick-turner is offline
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Default Hum Reduction for DHT Power Stage

On Saturday, 8 December 2012 12:49:38 UTC+11, Alex Pogossov wrote:
"John L Stewart" wrote in message ... Steve Bench published an excellant cure for the AC DHT filament hum problem more than 10 years ago. See it at this link- http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/m...ch/humbal.html Have to say I'm not in favor of running the filaments on DC. Just another complication to get in the way of reliability.. Altho in some instances we gotta do to. Cheers, Joh Though steve's method of hum compensation by injecting rectified (double mains frequency) signal works, he is not (completely) right about the mechanism of the hum second harmonic generation. He attributes the 120Hz hum to the filament temperature modulation. Though it might contribute in smaller tubes, the main cause is different -- it is transconductance nonlinearity, the law of 3/2. If at the pek of the AC filament voltage, say one end of the perfectly AC balanced filament goes down by -3V and the second end goes up by +3V, the emission current from the first end increases by a LARGER AMOUNT than emission decreases on the second edge -- it is due to the nonlinear current-vs-grid voltage characteristic (law of 3/2). So at the peaks of the filament supply total emission is always higher. Thus we have a frequency doubling effect.. This effect will be most pronounced if the tube is driven to cut-off. According to Steve, at cut-off point there would be no plate current, regardless of temperature modulation. In reality, if one end of the filament goes negative, this end starts conducting (emitting), and the other end is still not conducting (deeper into cutoff). When the filament polarity reverses, the ends swap roles. So at zero instantaneous filament voltage the trube is not conducting, but at either peak one or the other end of the filament causes the plate current to flow. In a way it is a frequency doubler using "anode-bend" effect. To check which effect (temperature modulation or "anode-bend rectification") contributes most, one needs to check the phase of the 2F hum. If it is in phase with the mains -- it is anode bend effect, if it is delayed, it is temperature modulation. Temperature is 90 degrees lagging behind because of the thermal mass (inertia) of the filament. Regards, Alex


Maybe your'e right about this, and in SE amps with say one OP tube and with horn speakers of sensitivity 95dB/W/M, maybe hum could be heard if you don't use a hum nulling pot to at least minimise it. In PP amps with 2 x OP tubes and two heater supplies, perhaps DH cathode hum is more easily nulled and CMRR tends to supress hum across OPT primary because its applied by both tubes with same phase.

I won't be mucking about adding 2H signals any time soon, and I WILL CONTINUE with use of DC heated cathodes to avoid any hint of modulation of audio with any hum. Its reliable for audiophiles who hate any adjustments and who invariably adjust things wrongly if its possible to do so. Meanwhile IDC = SILENCE when amp is turned on and warmed up, even without any GNFB. Its not been universally popular because its not damn well traditional, and sure wasn't done in 1928 when 300Bs came out to power the new fangled sound systems that ended the silent movie era. No body minded if there was hum, but many actors and actresses had terrible voices so they lost their jobs, and to to get a job youse 'ad ta speak proppa and cleer like, and loud with good self projecting quality because general bandwidth of any audio was so bloomin' attrocious, and no better than 78 records could offer. But by 1938, things were better, and certainly by 1958, although just how good sound was depended a bit in how many prints of prints and copies were made. I have heard some absolutely terrible digitized old movies put onto DVDs and played by the old local Australian Film and Sound Archives ppl in their outdoor screenings of things like the 1939 Thief Of Bagdad in nice COLOR, but shame about the sound. I recall going to local cinemas in Sydney in 1950s where they had GE gear and a huge horn speaker. I don't recall much hum, but sound was definately "tubey" and although there was distortion, sound seemed remarkably clear and firm. Some film tracks of 1940s movies were exceptionally good despite the SNR.

But I digress.

There's always going to be lousy audio quality spoilt by noise somewhere, and over last 18 years I have chased it out of amps constantly, as part of my living, and much to everyone's delight. Simple for me with DH tubes means a decent CRC rectifier, usually using Si diode bridge and two 15,000uF caps plus whatever R is needed to drop say 10Vdc to 5Vdc for a 300V or whatever. 845 present a good challenge because heaters are 3.3Amps at +10V, and an LC filter or CLC filter makes sense, depending on the available Vac winding and the taps so Vdc can be trimmed. Luckily, 15,000uF with high ripple ratings are cheap and can be paralleled easily. The luxury of this wasn't around in 1930s, but car batteries were, and so if you wanted to heat a 300 silently, you could use a 6.3V car battery with series R to trim voltage. Hafta gofor drive later to charge the battery maybe, and of course you would hafta, because after wooing GF with sweet 1930's smoozik from 78s, you'd hafta drive the GF home and then her chaparone, and you'd discuss what's the next best step might be to get married, because otherwize a bloke'd afta go without a root.

But I digress. I recall ppl were very very nice to each other before the wedding.

Patrick Turner.
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Alex Pogossov Alex Pogossov is offline
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Default Hum Reduction for DHT Power Stage


"patrick-turner" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 8 December 2012 12:49:38 UTC+11, Alex Pogossov wrote:
"John L Stewart" wrote in message
... Steve Bench published
an excellant cure for the AC DHT filament hum problem more than 10 years
ago. See it at this link-
http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/m...ch/humbal.html
Have to say I'm not in favor of running the filaments on DC. Just
another complication to get in the way of reliability. Altho in some
instances we gotta do to. Cheers, Joh Though steve's method of hum
compensation by injecting rectified (double mains frequency) signal works,
he is not (completely) right about the mechanism of the hum second
harmonic generation. He attributes the 120Hz hum to the filament
temperature modulation. Though it might contribute in smaller tubes, the
main cause is different -- it is transconductance nonlinearity, the law of
3/2. If at the pek of the AC filament voltage, say one end of the
perfectly AC balanced filament goes down by -3V and the second end goes up
by +3V, the emission current from the first end increases by a LARGER
AMOUNT than emission decreases on the second edge -- it is due to the
nonlinear current-vs-grid voltage characteristic (law of 3/2). So at the
peaks of the filament supply total emission is always higher. Thus we have
a frequency doubling effect. This effect will be most pronounced if the
tube is driven to cut-off. According to Steve, at cut-off point there
would be no plate current, regardless of temperature modulation. In
reality, if one end of the filament goes negative, this end starts
conducting (emitting), and the other end is still not conducting (deeper
into cutoff). When the filament polarity reverses, the ends swap roles. So
at zero instantaneous filament voltage the trube is not conducting, but at
either peak one or the other end of the filament causes the plate current
to flow. In a way it is a frequency doubler using "anode-bend" effect. To
check which effect (temperature modulation or "anode-bend rectification")
contributes most, one needs to check the phase of the 2F hum. If it is in
phase with the mains -- it is anode bend effect, if it is delayed, it is
temperature modulation. Temperature is 90 degrees lagging behind because
of the thermal mass (inertia) of the filament. Regards, Alex


Maybe your'e right about this, and in SE amps with say one OP tube and with
horn speakers of sensitivity 95dB/W/M, maybe hum could be heard if you
don't use a hum nulling pot to at least minimise it. In PP amps with 2 x OP
tubes and two heater supplies, perhaps DH cathode hum is more easily nulled
and CMRR tends to supress hum across OPT primary because its applied by both
tubes with same phase.

I won't be mucking about adding 2H signals any time soon, and I WILL
CONTINUE with use of DC heated cathodes to avoid any hint of modulation of
audio with any hum. Its reliable for audiophiles who hate any adjustments
and who invariably adjust things wrongly if its possible to do so. Meanwhile
IDC = SILENCE when amp is turned on and warmed up, even without any GNFB.
Its not been universally popular because its not damn well traditional, and
sure wasn't done in 1928 when 300Bs came out to power the new fangled sound
systems that ended the silent movie era. No body minded if there was hum,
but many actors and actresses had terrible voices so they lost their jobs,
and to to get a job youse 'ad ta speak proppa and cleer like, and loud with
good self projecting quality because general bandwidth of any audio was so
bloomin' attrocious, and no better than 78 records could offer. But by 1938,
things were better, and certainly by 1958, although just how good sound was
depended a bit in how many prints of prints and copies were made. I have
heard some absolutely terrible digitized old movies put onto DVDs and played
by the old local Australian Film and Sound Archives ppl in their outdoor
screenings of things like the 1939 Thief Of Bagdad in nice COLOR, but shame
about the sound. I recall going to local cinemas in Sydney in 1950s where
they had GE gear and a huge horn speaker. I don't recall much hum, but sound
was definately "tubey" and although there was distortion, sound seemed
remarkably clear and firm. Some film tracks of 1940s movies were
exceptionally good despite the SNR.

But I digress.

There's always going to be lousy audio quality spoilt by noise somewhere,
and over last 18 years I have chased it out of amps constantly, as part of
my living, and much to everyone's delight. Simple for me with DH tubes means
a decent CRC rectifier, usually using Si diode bridge and two 15,000uF caps
plus whatever R is needed to drop say 10Vdc to 5Vdc for a 300V or whatever.
845 present a good challenge because heaters are 3.3Amps at +10V, and an LC
filter or CLC filter makes sense, depending on the available Vac winding and
the taps so Vdc can be trimmed. Luckily, 15,000uF with high ripple ratings
are cheap and can be paralleled easily. The luxury of this wasn't around in
1930s, but car batteries were, and so if you wanted to heat a 300 silently,
you could use a 6.3V car battery with series R to trim voltage. Hafta gofor
drive later to charge the battery maybe, and of course you would hafta,
because after wooing GF with sweet 1930's smoozik from 78s, you'd hafta
drive the GF home and then her chaparone, and you'd discuss what's the next
best step might be to get married, because otherwize a bloke'd afta go
without a root.

But I digress. I recall ppl were very very nice to each other before the
wedding.

Patrick Turner.
------------------
Alex:
Your digressions are always entertaining... Thanks.

As for this DC or AC heating of the tubes -- I do not care, since (IMO) the
best tube is a transistor anyway. I am not a masochist to go into business
of creating problems resulting from using tubes in general and DHTs in
particular, and then overcoming the problems with bunches of 15000uF
capacitors, heat dissipating resistors and other stuff.

(However, you are lucky that audiphooles do exist, which gives you bread
plus enjoyment from fiddling with tube electronics.)

The point I was making is purely of academic interest. Though this guy Steve
correctly discovered the phenomenon of doubling of the um frequency, he
misunderstood its cause attributing it to temperature modulation, while in
fact it is caused by "anode-bend" full wave heater voltage rectification on
both end of the filament.


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patrick-turner patrick-turner is offline
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Default Hum Reduction for DHT Power Stage

Alex: Your digressions are always entertaining... Thanks. As for this DC or AC heating of the tubes -- I do not care, since (IMO) the best tube is a transistor anyway.

Its getting near Xmas, so lets not get christerical about what tube is best, the one with va-koomy inside, or the other one mit de sandan**** inside.
Maybe one has too little of anyfink innit, and tuther has too much of somink innit, and what might be best has yet to be invented, although mosfetishistas have done a fair old job of faking it, so that you'd think there were about 100 KT88 within one good power fet, with all of them forbidden to run at 30 Watts of Pda.

I am not a masochist to go into business of creating problems resulting from using tubes in general and DHTs in particular, and then overcoming the problems with bunches of 15000uF capacitors, heat dissipating resistors and other stuff.

Ah, but ya got one thing wrong, I'm a sadist, inflicting fabulous hi-fi onto infidels who hate vacuums. There's a gleam in my eye as I turn on the power, and serve 'em up a dish of 15,000 uF sausages.

(However, you are lucky that audiphooles do exist, which gives you bread plus enjoyment from fiddling with tube electronics.)

Weel, I guess I could say I'm lucky, but the pay rate for fixin up phules IS LOW. But its only been possible because ppl have a listen to music via tubes and they often have a little religious mystical experience which is a kind of audiologladical psychotic audiogasm. Suddenly, out of the blue comes this dreadful question, "why did I spend so much on huge lumbering SS gear with 0.0000000000000000001% thd at 1,000,000 Watts? I just can't help how ppl think, except to say, a little while later, "now that'll be $4,000 please". Christ, you see the crap they buy for $20,000.


The point I was making is purely of academic interest. Though this guy Steve correctly discovered the phenomenon of doubling of the um frequency, he misunderstood its cause attributing it to temperature modulation, while in fact it is caused by "anode-bend" full wave heater voltage rectification on both end of the filament.

Ah well, it should be common mode for a PP amps and thus not appear differentially across the OPT. I guess with 2 tubes in parallel SE, maybe having heater voltges in opposite phases, you get cancelation.

But all such dreampt up cancellations are not perfect, and usually there has to ba a damn hum nulling pot somewhwere, so for me, putting Vdc on DH cathodes is OK. Usually the Vdc is quite small compared to grid bias Vdc, so differences between emissions at each end of cathode becomes negligible. I believe the 15,000uF was right when it told me, " jus' lemme smooth 'tings ova fo yo bro, and den de amps begin ta bop."
Patrick Turner.



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