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#81
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"Arny Krueger" wrote...
"surf" wrote in message news wrote A much more likely scenario, Mr. Atkinson, is that your reviewers are either deluded, incompetent and/or corrupt and cynical. A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived something you don't understand. Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough. thank you for confirming joey's assertion that one unlikely scenario is that people sense things you don't understand. |
#82
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" wrote in message link.net... "Clyde Slick" wrote in message news " wrote in message link.net... "George Middius" wrote in message ... duh-Mikey falls down and goes splat. The fact that you have spent good money to subscribe to a magazine that you detest is the classic case of stupidity. I didn't, my wife did without my knowledge. What does that tell you, Mickey? That I know more about audio magazines than she does. She knew only that it was about audio and figured I would enjoy it. perhaps this mag is more to your liking. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/k...atingbugs.html Still George's bitch I see. I see you're still Arny's ass wipe. |
#83
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough. After you've wiped your ass on another thousand dollar check. |
#84
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" wrote...
"surf" wrote ... wrote A much more likely scenario, Mr. Atkinson, is that your reviewers are either deluded, incompetent and/or corrupt and cynical. A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived something you don't understand. How could they perceive the impossible without being both deluded and incompetent? No one else is saying it's impossible Mike. Joey (McCarty) is saying "a much more likely scenario" and Arny is saying "not likely". Please stop saying the world is definitely flat. Don't you think a claim as wierd as those being made for Mpingo disks or Shakti Stones deserves some technical measurments? A likely scenario is that they have no audible effect. And even if they have no audible effect, how can you say they didn't perceive something? You've already stated that sighted listening is unreliable. duh. That none have been offered pretty much says it all IMO. Nope. It doesn't say it all. But thanks for saying Malesweski is an asshole. |
#85
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message . .. "Clyde Slick" wrote in message news "Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... Right now you've got some of the biggest boobs in the history of Usenet on your team. Admit it, you have no chance at all with Maggie. Never have been attracted to big boobs. your wife has a small rack? |
#86
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote ...
For a magazine devoted to consumer audio to publish rather far-fetched claims for a product without any attempt to substantiate them other than by patently flawed methods -- should that be of concern to people interested in consumer audio? Have your concern, Steve. Share your concern. These people hear beautiful music. When they try to compare two setups and listen for differences, they're unable to hear what they heard when they were listening to music, so they discard the testing methodology as ineffective. They listen to music. They describe what they hear. That's what the magazine is. You don't like it. OK. Move on. You don't have to be a dick. You could be wrong. The world may not be flat. |
#87
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Mr.T MrT@home wrote: Or indeed anything approaching a disclaimer that it IS only the unsubstantiated opinion of one person. So *everything* in that magazine should be viewed with great suspicion by the non technical readers. Isn't that true for every magazine? At least there are some wonderful nuggets of solid information there -- most magazine don't even give you that. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#88
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Steven Sullivan wrote: So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on gear makes it sound better than before. If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about that either? Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not. (A bit of my background: My educational background is in EE/Comp. Sci. and Psychology. My Psych interests are perception, attention and cognition, while my EE interests are currently audio-related. They both expressed by doing R&D in Artificial Intelligence and designing binaural field recording equipment.) The question for you is: what's the difference between loudness and SPL (sound pressure level)? You can measure SPL directly and objectively. Loudness, in contrast, is a subjective perception and can't be measured by test equipment. You can amass statistical data for groups (as in the Fletcher-Munson curves) but a single-subject loudness evaluation tells you essentially nothing. So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. If large groups of people say that they hear a difference, then there'd be some statistical "proof" that there's a difference. But you, as an individual, might not hear a difference. So what's to argue about? -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#89
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So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. |
#90
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Mr. **** doffs his raincoat. Admit it, you have no chance at all with Maggie. Never have been attracted to big boobs. Firehoses are another matter, however. |
#91
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"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message
Steven Sullivan wrote: So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on gear makes it sound better than before. If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about that either? Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not. Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive and informed. Informed people now know that the world is not at all exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum. The perception that component A sounds different than component B could be due to differences in loudness, timing or natural variations in the listener's state of mind. Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of severe sanctions. |
#92
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"andy" wrote in message
oups.com So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Len is merely playing with words. The idea that Mpingo disks are ineffective is a negative hypothesis, and is therefore difficult or impossible to prove. However, the idea that Mpingo disks are effective is a positive hypothesis, and could possibly be proven. But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence. OTOH, saying that you put forth a heck of an effort into proving that Mpingo disks do something audible, and either came up negative or had to do something impractical or illogical is pretty meaningful. In these cases the truth is in the eye of the beholder. Note that some beholders couldn't see truth if it bit them on the nose. Politics anybody? ;-) |
#93
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Fun, fun, fun! Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. This is what the audio hobby is all about. You're an inspiration. |
#94
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The Rev. Kroofeces takes a dump and prepares to deliver a sermonette. Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not. Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive and informed. IOW, some have faith in what they can't perceive, and others don't. Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of severe sanctions. Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level matching" is the first step on the road to audio 'borgism. |
#95
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"George Middius" wrote in
message Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level matching" is the first step on the road to audio 'borgism. So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of HD580s would be too much pain for you to bear? |
#96
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The Krooborg is chowing down on a fresh turd. Everybody watch for flying dingleberries. Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level matching" is the first step on the road to audio 'borgism. So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of HD580s would be too much pain for you to bear? Tnanks Mr. **** for admitting that your best "system" is a pair of headphones. |
#98
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"Denis Sbragion" wrote in message
6.1 Hello Arny, "Arny Krueger" wrote in news:W6ydnUUJFabDGrTeRVn- : ... But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence. true, but the negative results IMHO could still be quite useful. For example to me the fact that nobody has been able so far to prove under DBT conditions that cables make an audible difference (apart from few pathological cases) is enough to avoid worrying about cables at all. That would be a tiny leap of faith that most rational people are able to make. Even in the worst case that all concerns about supposed reduced sensitivity of DBTs are true (and to be clear I don't think they are true) all the negative results collected so far clearly show that any supposed difference between cables is subtle enough to escape many DBTs performed by many different peoples under many different conditions. Well, consider all the reports of "mind-blowing differences" that turn to mush when levels are matched, etc. Considering that there are parts of an audio chain that are so weak that could be probably proven as audibly different even if the DBT is performed while wearing eraplugs, I wonder why I should worry about the effects of components that have been so far negative even after many different trials. I prefer to concentrate on the proven weak parts of the chain, because there changes are probably going to provide the greatest improvements. Exactly. English speaking peoples use to call this "the biggest bang for the buck", isn't it? I'm more likely to consider removing the beam from the eye before going after the dust under the rug. |
#99
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"George Middius" wrote in
message The Krooborg is chowing down on a fresh turd. Everybody watch for flying dingleberries. Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. "Get thee to the Krooborg's hovel, and listen ye well to the cacophony of a Hive-approved system, and stay ye there until ye have learned thy lesson!" And that lesson would be that "level matching" is the first step on the road to audio 'borgism. So George, you're saying that listening to a pair of HD580s would be too much pain for you to bear? Tnanks Mr. **** for admitting that your best "system" is a pair of headphones. All things considered that would be an admission of your ignorance, George. The world is full of really pretty credible speakers that sonically underperform a pair of HD580s. BTW, who exactly is this person that you are *tnanking*, George? |
#100
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On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:26:24 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: A possible scenario then, is that the reviewers perceived something you don't understand. Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough. Yes, you've claimed in the past that it smells like your toilet. |
#101
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andy wrote: So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their perceptual gestalt, so you've proven nothing. Perhaps everything about the listening experience matters? Quantifying perceptions is a lot different that Test & Measurement. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#102
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George Middius wrote: Arny Krueger wrote: Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of severe sanctions. Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. Arny is not being totally forthcoming with the truth, George. There are no "sanctions" on the forums at www.stereophile.com. Instead, we decided to implement the same rule that r.a.h-e applies wrt blind testing comments: that they be restricted to threads that are specifically _about_ blind testing. In other threads, posters are free to make comments about sound quality without being subjected to demands for "proof" and questions along the lines of "how many blind tests have you performed to be so sure of what you say?" John Atkinson Editor, Stereophile |
#103
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"Clyde Slick" said:
If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about that either? But that's true. Ever seen a green Ferrari? :-) only in my rear view mirror. **grin** -- "Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes." - Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005 |
#104
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Arny Krueger wrote: Informed people now know that the world is not at all exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum. The perception that component A sounds different than component B could be due to differences in loudness, timing or natural variations in the listener's state of mind. If there ever was a rationale for subjective opinion columns, you've stated it quite precisely. -- Len Moskowitz PDAudio, Binaural Mics, Cables, DPA, M-Audio Core Sound http://www.stealthmicrophones.com Teaneck, New Jersey USA http://www.core-sound.com Tel: 201-801-0812, FAX: 201-801-0912 |
#105
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"Len Moskowitz" wrote in message
andy wrote: So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their perceptual gestalt, Of course. so you've proven nothing. Wrong Len. You've shown something with respect to the changed perceptual gestalt. Really Len, when is the last time that this kind of double-talk work on a mentally competent adult? Or even an older teenager? Perhaps everything about the listening experience matters? Perhaps an occasional individual doesn't think that looks are all that matters? Quantifying perceptions is a lot different that Test & Measurement. My life was never the same after I fell in love with an experimental psychologist. |
#106
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John Atkinson said: Things have gone downhill so far at Stereophile, that mere mention of level matching, time synch and bias controls on almost all of Stereophile's forums comes with a promise of severe sanctions. Really? If I were the one laying the "sanctions", my first choice would be to banish a reviewer to Michigan for a week of audio torture. Arny is not being totally forthcoming with the truth, George. There are no "sanctions" on the forums at www.stereophile.com. Instead, we decided to implement the same rule that r.a.h-e applies wrt blind testing comments: that they be restricted to threads that are specifically _about_ blind testing. In other threads, posters are free to make comments about sound quality without being subjected to demands for "proof" and questions along the lines of "how many blind tests have you performed to be so sure of what you say?" That's a reasonable policy, but this is Arnii Krooborg, not a reasonable person. I believe that for Turdborg, your policy amounts to religious discrimination. G |
#107
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Denis Sbragion wrote Hello Arny, Arny Krueger wrote ... But, the absence of proof is not proof of the absence. Hello. true, but the negative results IMHO could still be quite useful. For example to me the fact that nobody has been able so far to prove under DBT conditions that cables make an audible difference (apart from few pathological cases) is enough to avoid worrying about cables at all. Even in the worst case that all concerns about supposed reduced sensitivity of DBTs are true (and to be clear I don't think they are true) all the negative results collected so far clearly show that any supposed difference between cables is subtle enough to escape many DBTs performed by many different peoples under many different conditions. You seems to be saying then that when the differences among the components you wish to upgrade are subtle, then the dbt may not be a viable test to use in detecting differences between those units. I thought all along that dbt is use to detect subtle sound differences. With regards to your confidence about DBT above, what do you think, in your opinion, does the "test" or the "proctor" or the "methodology" ...etc. do in proving beyond doubt (to you) that the components involve, indeed, sound alike 'cause, as it show, each time test comparisons were made, they sound the same. Considering that there are parts of an audio chain that are so weak that could be probably proven as audibly different even if the DBT is performed while wearing earplugs, I wonder why I should worry about the effects of components that have been so far negative even after many different trials. I prefer to concentrate on the proven weak parts of the chain, because there changes are probably going to provide the greatest improvements. English speaking peoples use to call this "the biggest bang for the buck", isn't it? -- Denis Sbragion |
#108
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"Signal" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" emitted : OTOH, saying that you put forth a heck of an effort into proving that Mpingo disks do something audible, and either came up negative or had to do something impractical or illogical is pretty meaningful. It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own ability to make rational judgements to such a degree that you require proof. ] So what are you saying Dormer, its irrational to want proof of anything? |
#109
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"Signal" wrote in message
"andy" emitted : So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Thank you for exposing the irrelevancy of DBTs for consumers so succinctly... Question.. do you routinely blindfold yourself when listening? Just shows that Dormer is so out-of-it that he thinks that DBTs necessarily involve blindfolding. |
#110
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dave weil said to FecesBorg:
Not likely given that I understand the smell of money well enough. Yes, you've claimed in the past that it smells like your toilet. I thought he meant the sight of money makes him want to take a dump. |
#111
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"Steven Sullivan" wrote in message
In rec.audio.tech Len Moskowitz wrote: Arny Krueger wrote: Informed people now know that the world is not at all exactly what we perceive naively. That solid object is really composed of atoms and space-wise mostly vacuum. The perception that component A sounds different than component B could be due to differences in loudness, timing or natural variations in the listener's state of mind. If there ever was a rationale for subjective opinion columns, you've stated it quite precisely. I don't think so. the key words are "listener's state of mind". In truth, the listener's state of mind". is unknowable. Subjective opinions are always unknowable. What we get in audio subjective opinion columns is what the writer wants us to believe about his state of mind. Most people read them to find out about the state of equipment, not the state of some journalist's mind. The state of the writer's mind usually has a liberal dose of intellectual noise. If there ever was a rationale for ignoring subjective opinion columns about components, he's stated that quite well here too. Exactly. That Len didn't get that tells me a little something about his ummm, state of mind. ;-) |
#112
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"Signal" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" emitted : So, let's see, he said that putting a Mpingo disc on gear makes it sound better than before. If he'd written instead that painting a car red made it go faster than before, you wouldn't find anything wrong about that either? Auto speed is measurable. My perceptions are not. Perceptions come in at least two different flavors: naive and informed. Oh yes... the moral crusade! No, support for education. So Paul, you are against education? Snip gratuitous insults |
#113
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"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast
[dot] net wrote in message That's a reasonable policy, but this is Arnii Krooborg, Given your past criticisims of less-than-perfect spelling George, this can't be a tyop. Who is Arnii Krooborg? |
#114
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PD said: It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own ability to make rational judgements to such a degree that you require proof. One of Krooger's many problems is that he assumes all tweaks are phoney and their proponents are all lying. If the scientific establishment were run by 'borgs, no investigations of perceived phenomena would be permitted because "proof" would be required before data can be collected. Remind me.. why do have faith in god? One born every minute... Good to have you back. What's kept you away? Watch out for Sillyborg. He's been prattling on like a ninny about DBTs and it turns out his entire system is some cheapo speakers and a low-end Pioneer receiver. |
#115
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"Signal" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" emitted : So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their perceptual gestalt, Of course. so you've proven nothing. Wrong Len. You've shown something with respect to the changed perceptual gestalt. Really Len, when is the last time that this kind of double-talk work on a mentally competent adult? Or even an older teenager? Oh dear Len, you have caused offense by making a valid rational point. Let the snot storm begin! Looks like you've already provided the first squall of that snot storm, Dormer. Do you really lack that much personal insight? |
#116
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"Arny Krueger" said:
"Signal" wrote in message "andy" emitted : Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Thank you for exposing the irrelevancy of DBTs for consumers so succinctly... Question.. do you routinely blindfold yourself when listening? Just shows that Dormer is so out-of-it that he thinks that DBTs necessarily involve blindfolding. The unknown poster known as "Andy" used that phrase first. -- "Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes." - Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005 |
#117
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"Arny Krueger" said:
It's meaningful if you lack confidence in your own ability to make rational judgements to such a degree that you require proof. ] So what are you saying Dormer, its irrational to want proof of anything? How irrational is it to believe in a god, without any proof that it exists? -- "Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes." - Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005 |
#118
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"Arny Krueger" said:
Given your past criticisims of less-than-perfect spelling George, this can't be a tyop. LOL! -- "Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes." - Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005 |
#119
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Talk about tripping over your own feet.... George, this can't be a tyop. Riiiight........ |
#120
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So getting to the point that perhaps you missed, if someone says that
the Mpingo Disks makes his audio system sound better, I can't disprove it and neither can you. Nonsense. Unless the person claims being able to see Mpingo Disks (whatever they are) is a requirement then simply blindfolding the subject while adding or subtracting the disks will determine the truth of what is perceived or not. Nonsense (to use your words)! Blindfolding someone changes their perceptual gestalt, so you've proven nothing. The nonsense referred to your daft assertion that one cannot test a persons perception. If you believe that sight is important in this case then simply substitute the Mpingo Discs with ones that look the same but contain no working parts (assuming they have any). Perhaps everything about the listening experience matters? Quantifying perceptions is a lot different that Test & Measurement. This statement is also largely nonsense. The act of measurement is quantification. |
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