[Les Cargill[_4_]]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be

--
Les Cargill

[geoff]

On 12/11/2018 9:22 AM, Les Cargill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be


As I've mentioned before,once upon a time I did a (single)blind
experiment with Monster and several other 'esoteric' brand interconnects
at -10dBV Line level, compared to unscreened coat-hanger wire. I could
not perceive a difference, even wrt noise level. At phono cartridge
level there was noise pickup which would have masked any wire effect.

It was repeated later in a double-blind scenario with the same result.

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff wrote:

As I've mentioned before,once upon a time I did a (single)blind
experiment with Monster and several other 'esoteric' brand interconnects
at -10dBV Line level, compared to unscreened coat-hanger wire. I could
not perceive a difference, even wrt noise level. At phono cartridge
level there was noise pickup which would have masked any wire effect.

It was repeated later in a double-blind scenario with the same result.

Gabe Weiner and I did an A/B test between some low voltage lighting cable
(giant zip cord with doubtful dielectric) and MIT interconnects, and there
was a clear difference. He opened up the box on one end of the MIT cable
and found inductors and capacitors in there. So, of course it sounded
different. It was designed to sound different.

There are a lot of cables in the high end home market that specifically have
weird distributed reactance in order to deliberately be used as a tone control.
I am not a fan of this, but it's a thing that people do in the world of
high-Z interconnections.

It is easy to make things sound different. It is much harder to make things
sound better.

I urge people to do null testing, because if you do it in a high impedance
environment you'll hear all kinds of weird stuff, and if you do it in a
low-Z 600 ohm pro audio environment you won't hear anything at all. To my
mind this shows the superiority of the balanced low-Z interface more than
anything else.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 3:22:37 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be

--
Les Cargill

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of the differences.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 11/12/2018 10:03 AM, Ty Ford wrote:

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of the differences.

When you throw a mic and preamp into the mix you have too many
interactive variables.

It would be interesting to do a null test on mic cables with a preamp in
line. Even with two channels of the same preamp and same cables it would
be unlikely that you'd get a perfect null, so I'd suggest a test like this:

Test an ordinary cable along side an ordinary cable plus preamp and
learn (or record) the sound with the best null you can get. Then start
substituting boutique cables and lengths of zip cord, whatever, for the
cable between the source and the preamp and listen for differences.

The results will almost certainly differ with a different preamp, and
whether the source is inductive, capacitive, or resistive.

--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Ralph Barone[_3_]]

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/12/2018 10:03 AM, Ty Ford wrote:

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type
found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3,
Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent
to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature
of the differences.

When you throw a mic and preamp into the mix you have too many
interactive variables.

It would be interesting to do a null test on mic cables with a preamp in
line. Even with two channels of the same preamp and same cables it would
be unlikely that you'd get a perfect null, so I'd suggest a test like this:

Test an ordinary cable along side an ordinary cable plus preamp and
learn (or record) the sound with the best null you can get. Then start
substituting boutique cables and lengths of zip cord, whatever, for the
cable between the source and the preamp and listen for differences.

The results will almost certainly differ with a different preamp, and
whether the source is inductive, capacitive, or resistive.


The one thing that wasn't discussed in Ethan's video was source impedance.
I seem to recall there being an adjustment on one of his boxes for
impedance, but he didn't spin that dial during the tests. If your source
impedance is low enough, wire should just be wire. However if both source
and load impedances are very high, then differences in the shunt parasitic
elements of the cable might be audible (guitar cables). Similarly, if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet via 200' of Cat 5).

[Don Pearce[_3_]]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2018 19:32:01 +0000 (UTC), Ralph Barone
wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/12/2018 10:03 AM, Ty Ford wrote:

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type
found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3,
Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent
to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature
of the differences.

When you throw a mic and preamp into the mix you have too many
interactive variables.

It would be interesting to do a null test on mic cables with a preamp in
line. Even with two channels of the same preamp and same cables it would
be unlikely that you'd get a perfect null, so I'd suggest a test like this:

Test an ordinary cable along side an ordinary cable plus preamp and
learn (or record) the sound with the best null you can get. Then start
substituting boutique cables and lengths of zip cord, whatever, for the
cable between the source and the preamp and listen for differences.

The results will almost certainly differ with a different preamp, and
whether the source is inductive, capacitive, or resistive.


The one thing that wasn't discussed in Ethan's video was source impedance.
I seem to recall there being an adjustment on one of his boxes for
impedance, but he didn't spin that dial during the tests. If your source
impedance is low enough, wire should just be wire. However if both source
and load impedances are very high, then differences in the shunt parasitic
elements of the cable might be audible (guitar cables). Similarly, if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet via 200' of Cat 5).

Wire is just wire when source impedance, load impedance and wire
impedance are the same. Any other condition, the length of the wire
will introduce frequency response errors.

d

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 11/12/2018 2:44 PM, Don Pearce wrote:
Wire is just wire when source impedance, load impedance and wire
impedance are the same. Any other condition, the length of the wire
will introduce frequency response errors.

This is true, because you're eliminating a standing wave, and an
important consideration at radio frequencies. But at audio frequencies
and normal studio cable lengths, the effect is so small as to be
negligible. The phone company still needs equalizers to correct for
mismatches when dealing with long line (and that's where we got
equalizers in the studio from).


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[geoff]

On 13/11/2018 8:32 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
..


The one thing that wasn't discussed in Ethan's video was source impedance.
I seem to recall there being an adjustment on one of his boxes for
impedance, but he didn't spin that dial during the tests. If your source
impedance is low enough, wire should just be wire. However if both source
and load impedances are very high, then differences in the shunt parasitic
elements of the cable might be audible (guitar cables). Similarly, if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet via 200' of Cat 5).


Maybe that was thought to be too obvious to bother mentioning !

geoff

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

Ralph Barone wrote:

if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet viaÂ* 200' of Cat 5).



On 11/12/2018 4:55 PM, geoff wrote:

Maybe that was thought to be too obvious to bother mentioning !

For a while, the audiophools were hawking the benefits of using 300 ohm
twin lead (old school TV antenna cable) as speaker cable. It's about 22
gauge stranded wire. Of course it had to be raised off the floor by
little bridges every six inches, made from a rare crystal mined by
virgins in the Himalayas and carefully carried by yaks to Japan where it
was polished, packaged, and sold through high end audio dealers.


--

For a good time, call http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Ralph Barone[_3_]]

geoff wrote:
On 13/11/2018 8:32 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
.


The one thing that wasn't discussed in Ethan's video was source impedance.
I seem to recall there being an adjustment on one of his boxes for
impedance, but he didn't spin that dial during the tests. If your source
impedance is low enough, wire should just be wire. However if both source
and load impedances are very high, then differences in the shunt parasitic
elements of the cable might be audible (guitar cables). Similarly, if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet via 200' of Cat 5).


Maybe that was thought to be too obvious to bother mentioning !

geoff


Perhaps for Ethan, but since the subliminal message in the video was "all
cables sound the same", it would have done good to shed some light on the
applications where cables can actually sound different.

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Ralph Barone wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:
On 11/12/2018 10:03 AM, Ty Ford wrote:

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type
found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3,
Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent
to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature
of the differences.

When you throw a mic and preamp into the mix you have too many
interactive variables.

It would be interesting to do a null test on mic cables with a preamp in
line. Even with two channels of the same preamp and same cables it would
be unlikely that you'd get a perfect null, so I'd suggest a test like this:

Test an ordinary cable along side an ordinary cable plus preamp and
learn (or record) the sound with the best null you can get. Then start
substituting boutique cables and lengths of zip cord, whatever, for the
cable between the source and the preamp and listen for differences.

The results will almost certainly differ with a different preamp, and
whether the source is inductive, capacitive, or resistive.


The one thing that wasn't discussed in Ethan's video was source impedance.

It rather was discussed - most sources these days are pretty lo-Z.
Anything with an RCA almost certainly will be.

I seem to recall there being an adjustment on one of his boxes for
impedance, but he didn't spin that dial during the tests. If your source
impedance is low enough, wire should just be wire. However if both source
and load impedances are very high, then differences in the shunt parasitic
elements of the cable might be audible (guitar cables).

They might be and they might not be. If it matters, buffer it or
select cables more carefully. The worst case is some sort of peizo
and there are several good DI solutions for that.

A lot of people like GeorgeL cables but I can't tell the difference
myself in practice.

Similarly, if your
load impedance is very low, then series parasitical may cause audible
effects (ie: trying to run a 2 ohm cabinet via 200' of Cat 5).


Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do that....

--
Les Cargill

[geoff]

On 13/11/2018 4:03 AM, Ty Ford wrote:
On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 3:22:37 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be

--
Les Cargill

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of the differences.

Regards,

Ty Ford


Differences greater than the influence of moving your head more that a
short distance ?

geoff

[Scott Dorsey]

Ty Ford wrote:
As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type fou=
nd differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (do=
n't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Ger=
ry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.=20

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of=
the differences.

With what mike? Again, this has a lot to do with source and load. With a
Collette you shouldn't expect to hear any differences, but with a 77DX into
a preamp set up properly for it you sure will.

And yes, a proper null test will demonstrate it.

The solution? Locate the preamp next to the mike when you're using the 77DX.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Ty Ford wrote:
On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 3:22:37 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be

--
Les Cargill

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of the differences.

Regards,

Ty Ford


Was this with a ribbon mic?

That makes me think that something like a Cloudlifter or other
buffer might be a good idea. There are even inline preamps that run off
phantom these days. One's by sE - the sE DM1.

--
Les Cargill

[Ty Ford[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 13, 2018 at 7:34:33 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
Ty Ford wrote:
On Sunday, November 11, 2018 at 3:22:37 PM UTC-5, Les Cargill wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyWt...ature=youtu.be

--
Les Cargill

As I've mentioned before, pre 2000, myself and two other recording type found differences in mic cables at Flite Three in Baltimore. GAC-3, Belden (don't recall the number) and EMT (still have a length of it sent to me by Gerry Graham of Gotham sound along with the M71 Gefell mic.

We were simultaneously excited and dismayed. We all agreed on the nature of the differences.

Regards,

Ty Ford


Was this with a ribbon mic?

That makes me think that something like a Cloudlifter or other
buffer might be a good idea. There are even inline preamps that run off
phantom these days. One's by sE - the sE DM1.

No. A U87 and possibly a C414.

Regards,

Ty Ford