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#41
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... At what power ratings should one start to worry about this? some people don't realize that if you have a fully regulated amp, you get little to no benefits. if it's un-or-semi regulated you may/can see some benefits How do you figure? Headlight dimming would be more pronounced if anything for a fully regulated amp. no it wouldn't, fully reg. amps put less strain on elec. systems then un-reg. amps. |
#42
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when is capacitors used?
explain who there a gimmick, if you need a big boost of volts for a
bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough. What do you mean? It moves at the speed of light. electricy does not always move at the speed of light, it depends on the medium Right. In fact, it never moves at the speed of light. But relatively speaking, it's close enough. So that still doesn't clarify your point. |
#43
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when is capacitors used?
How do you figure? Headlight dimming would be more pronounced if
anything for a fully regulated amp. no it wouldn't, fully reg. amps put less strain on elec. systems then un-reg. amps. No, the dimming would be more pronounced because the regulated amp would draw more current than the unregulated counterpart. That is, in order to compensate for the drop in input voltage, excess current is drawn in the regulated amp. In an unregulated amp, the current drawn is directly proportional to the supply voltage. As a result, dimming increases with more regulation. |
#44
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... explain who there a gimmick, if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough. What do you mean? It moves at the speed of light. electricy does not always move at the speed of light, it depends on the medium Right. In fact, it never moves at the speed of light. But relatively speaking, it's close enough. So that still doesn't clarify your point. what are you talking about, I'm not following your line of questions. |
#45
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... How do you figure? Headlight dimming would be more pronounced if anything for a fully regulated amp. no it wouldn't, fully reg. amps put less strain on elec. systems then un-reg. amps. No, the dimming would be more pronounced because the regulated amp would draw more current than the unregulated counterpart. That is, in order to compensate for the drop in input voltage, excess current is drawn in the regulated amp. In an unregulated amp, the current drawn is directly proportional to the supply voltage. As a result, dimming increases with more regulation. no it's less pronounced the amp will change the rail voltage to compensate for lost power. |
#46
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when is capacitors used?
what are you talking about, I'm not following your line of questions.
You said: "if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough." I replied that it would get down the line quick enough because electrons move at the speed of light. |
#47
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when is capacitors used?
No, the dimming would be more pronounced because the regulated amp would
draw more current than the unregulated counterpart. That is, in order to compensate for the drop in input voltage, excess current is drawn in the regulated amp. In an unregulated amp, the current drawn is directly proportional to the supply voltage. As a result, dimming increases with more regulation. no it's less pronounced the amp will change the rail voltage to compensate for lost power. Huh? What amp does this? |
#48
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when is capacitors used?
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 21:13:26 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote: No, the dimming would be more pronounced because the regulated amp would draw more current than the unregulated counterpart. That is, in order to compensate for the drop in input voltage, excess current is drawn in the regulated amp. In an unregulated amp, the current drawn is directly proportional to the supply voltage. As a result, dimming increases with more regulation. no it's less pronounced the amp will change the rail voltage to compensate for lost power. Huh? What amp does this? There were/are some car amps that have switchable rail voltages - Carver comes to mind, for one. But the vast majority of regulated car amplifiers behave as you described - raising current draw to compensate for reduced input voltage. Scott Gardner |
#49
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when is capacitors used?
There were/are some car amps that have switchable rail voltages -
Carver comes to mind, for one. But the vast majority of regulated car amplifiers behave as you described - raising current draw to compensate for reduced input voltage. Yes, ESX also made an amp like this. And if I'm not mistaken, Sony as well? But this has nothing to do with regulation. |
#50
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... what are you talking about, I'm not following your line of questions. You said: "if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough." I replied that it would get down the line quick enough because electrons move at the speed of light. electrons do, but current doesn't |
#51
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when is capacitors used?
You said: "if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need
the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough." I replied that it would get down the line quick enough because electrons move at the speed of light. electrons do, but current doesn't Current is only limited by reactance, which isn't much greater in the battery than in the cap. |
#52
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... You said: "if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough." I replied that it would get down the line quick enough because electrons move at the speed of light. electrons do, but current doesn't Current is only limited by reactance, which isn't much greater in the battery than in the cap. You don't really get a boost of volts from a capacitor, you have a resevoir of charge which can provide current that prevents the voltage from dropping. Ideally, the capacitor would be as close to the amplifier as possible to reduce the impedance (reactance+resistance) between it and the amplifier. The effect of the impedance between the battery and the amplifier will cause the voltage to drop at the amplifier because of the high-current requirements which are associated with strong bass notes. Billh |
#53
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... You said: "if you need a big boost of volts for a bass note you'll need the cap then the batt. will never get the power down the line quickly enough." I replied that it would get down the line quick enough because electrons move at the speed of light. electrons do, but current doesn't Current is only limited by reactance, which isn't much greater in the battery than in the cap. I think it is, it's made to store and slowly release not give up the ghost quickly. |
#54
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when is capacitors used?
You don't really get a boost of volts from a capacitor, you have a
resevoir of charge which can provide current that prevents the voltage from dropping. Ideally, the capacitor would be as close to the amplifier as possible to reduce the impedance (reactance+resistance) between it and the amplifier. The effect of the impedance between the battery and the amplifier will cause the voltage to drop at the amplifier because of the high-current requirements which are associated with strong bass notes. Billh Right, but Ghee wasn't talking about v drops. He was talking about speed. |
#55
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when is capacitors used?
Current is only limited by reactance, which isn't much greater in the
battery than in the cap. I think it is, it's made to store and slowly release not give up the ghost quickly. It doesn't "slowly release". The impedance would have to be sky high for that to be true. |
#56
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... Current is only limited by reactance, which isn't much greater in the battery than in the cap. I think it is, it's made to store and slowly release not give up the ghost quickly. It doesn't "slowly release". The impedance would have to be sky high for that to be true. I know that's why you need caps to get the voltage to the other end quickly. |
#57
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when is capacitors used?
It doesn't "slowly release". The impedance would have to be sky high
for that to be true. I know that's why you need caps to get the voltage to the other end quickly. I'm afraid you're wrong. It's not a matter of speed. Current is limited only by the phase lag provided by the reactive component of the output impedance. It's physically impossible for it to get as high as you seem to be suggesting. |
#58
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... It doesn't "slowly release". The impedance would have to be sky high for that to be true. I know that's why you need caps to get the voltage to the other end quickly. I'm afraid you're wrong. It's not a matter of speed. Current is limited only by the phase lag provided by the reactive component of the output impedance. It's physically impossible for it to get as high as you seem to be suggesting. the purpose of the cap is to recharge and discharge volts quickly. |
#59
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when is capacitors used?
Is it me or is it they way people dechiper a battery and compair a cap to a
battery. A battery is a power source, a cap is a storage device. When dealing woith stored energy and the potential difference created across the positive and negative plates of a cap, is quite different than the energy that is chemically produced than a battery. I thought that Stored of dissipated energy is more depicted by represemnting it as Joules. If you break down how many Joules of power is realesed from a battery at a given point and compair that to the cap you might find that the Joules in a cap are quite insignifigant compaired to the battery. Just to figure something out can anyone tell me where the storage of the potential in a cap is? -- 1991 Tornado Red Corrado, CCA Member # 6645 Stereo is a continuous W.I.P. There are two parts to wisdom: 1) Having a lot to say, and 2) Not saying it. "Tha Ghee" wrote in message ... "Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... It doesn't "slowly release". The impedance would have to be sky high for that to be true. I know that's why you need caps to get the voltage to the other end quickly. I'm afraid you're wrong. It's not a matter of speed. Current is limited only by the phase lag provided by the reactive component of the output impedance. It's physically impossible for it to get as high as you seem to be suggesting. the purpose of the cap is to recharge and discharge volts quickly. |
#60
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when is capacitors used?
"Donald Sherwood" wrote in message
news:wq1Ob.82691$xy6.141815@attbi_s02... Is it me or is it they way people dechiper a battery and compair a cap to a battery. A battery is a power source, a cap is a storage device. When dealing woith stored energy and the potential difference created across the positive and negative plates of a cap, is quite different than the energy that is chemically produced than a battery. I thought that Stored of dissipated energy is more depicted by represemnting it as Joules. If you break down how many Joules of power is realesed from a battery at a given point and compair that to the cap you might find that the Joules in a cap are quite insignifigant compaired to the battery. Just to figure something out can anyone tell me where the storage of the potential in a cap is? -- 1991 Tornado Red Corrado, CCA Member # 6645 Stereo is a continuous W.I.P. the only power source in a car is the alt not batt. and a batt. is a storage device like the cap. and they rest I can't decipher, please turn on the spell check. |
#61
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when is capacitors used?
Is it me or is it they way people dechiper a battery and compair a cap to
a battery. A battery is a power source, a cap is a storage device. When dealing woith stored energy and the potential difference created across the positive and negative plates of a cap, is quite different than the energy that is chemically produced than a battery. I thought that Stored of dissipated energy is more depicted by represemnting it as Joules. If you break down how many Joules of power is realesed from a battery at a given point and compair that to the cap you might find that the Joules in a cap are quite insignifigant compaired to the battery. Well, first of all Joules are a unit of energy, not power. When making the comparison, it's the time component that differentiates power and energy that comes into play with a capacitor. The point is that the capacitor can discharge current through a relatively small output impedance compared with that of the battery/alternator. If the battery/alternator had the output impedance that a capacitor has, they wouldn't exhibit the voltage drop that they do. Just to figure something out can anyone tell me where the storage of the potential in a cap is? The energy in a capacitor is stored in the dielectric. Is that what you wanted to know? |
#62
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when is capacitors used?
the only power source in a car is the alt not batt. and a batt. is a
storage device like the cap. A battery is a source. |
#63
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when is capacitors used?
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 22:18:14 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote: the only power source in a car is the alt not batt. and a batt. is a storage device like the cap. A battery is a source. I agree with Ghee on this one. Both batteries and capacitors are storage devices. Batteries store and release energy by chemical reactions, wheras capacitors store and release energy by means of a differential charge between two plates separated by a dielectric. The only thing in a car that actually generates electrical energy is the alternator, by means of relative motion between a magnetic field and wire windings. Scott Gardner |
#64
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when is capacitors used?
A battery is a source.
I agree with Ghee on this one. Both batteries and capacitors are storage devices. Batteries are the prototypical voltage source. Open any electronics or physics text and they're using batteries as sources. Batteries store and release energy by chemical reactions, wheras capacitors store and release energy by means of a differential charge between two plates separated by a dielectric. The only thing in a car that actually generates electrical energy is the alternator, by means of relative motion between a magnetic field and wire windings. The key difference of course is that batteries CREATE charge by transducing energy from chemical potential to electrical potential. Therefore, it's a source. Your argument is based on the premise that it stores energy, therefore it cannot be a source. That it stores energy is irrelevant, because energy must by definition (conservation of energy) always be accessible by any voltage source so that a potential difference can be generated. It doesn't matter whether the energy is in the form of chemical potential, temperature gradients, magnetic fields, or atomic forces. A device that transduces one form of energy into a voltage is a voltage source. A device that transduces energy into a current is a current source. Capacitors do not do this. They strictly store charge. They do nothing else. No energy transduction, no charge generation. |
#65
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when is capacitors used?
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:09:24 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote: A battery is a source. I agree with Ghee on this one. Both batteries and capacitors are storage devices. Batteries are the prototypical voltage source. Open any electronics or physics text and they're using batteries as sources. Batteries store and release energy by chemical reactions, wheras capacitors store and release energy by means of a differential charge between two plates separated by a dielectric. The only thing in a car that actually generates electrical energy is the alternator, by means of relative motion between a magnetic field and wire windings. The key difference of course is that batteries CREATE charge by transducing energy from chemical potential to electrical potential. Therefore, it's a source. Your argument is based on the premise that it stores energy, therefore it cannot be a source. That it stores energy is irrelevant, because energy must by definition (conservation of energy) always be accessible by any voltage source so that a potential difference can be generated. It doesn't matter whether the energy is in the form of chemical potential, temperature gradients, magnetic fields, or atomic forces. A device that transduces one form of energy into a voltage is a voltage source. A device that transduces energy into a current is a current source. Capacitors do not do this. They strictly store charge. They do nothing else. No energy transduction, no charge generation. You're absolutely right, Mark. I should have gone back to my "Electric Circuits" textbook (dug off the shelf after too many years, obvioiusly) BEFORE I posted my reply. Here's the definition of "Source" from that book - "a device that is capable of converting nonelectric energy to electric energy and vice versa" So as you posted, a battery satisfies that definition. An alternator wouldn't, since it only converts one way, from mechanical energy to electrical energy, not the other way around. Also, you're correct that since capacitors do not convert between electrical energy and any form of non-electrical energy, they are NOT sources. Thanks for the correction. Scott Gardner |
#66
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when is capacitors used?
You're absolutely right, Mark. I should have gone back to my
"Electric Circuits" textbook (dug off the shelf after too many years, obvioiusly) BEFORE I posted my reply. Here's the definition of "Source" from that book - "a device that is capable of converting nonelectric energy to electric energy and vice versa" So as you posted, a battery satisfies that definition. An alternator wouldn't, since it only converts one way, from mechanical energy to electrical energy, not the other way around. Actually, an alternator is a source too. First, I don't think the "vice versa" part is necessary, though I can't think of a situation where it doesn't exist one way and not the other. An alternator, for example, is a mere extension of Faraday's law so electrical input would indeed result in a force. It's based on the same principles as a speaker or microphone (which are essentially the same thing). You can push down on the cone in an oscillatory manner and a voltage will appear at the terminals, or you can apply a current and the speaker will move. That means that a speaker/microphone can also be considered a source, and in fact it's often modelled as such. |
#67
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when is capacitors used?
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:29:09 -0500, "Mark Zarella"
wrote: You're absolutely right, Mark. I should have gone back to my "Electric Circuits" textbook (dug off the shelf after too many years, obvioiusly) BEFORE I posted my reply. Here's the definition of "Source" from that book - "a device that is capable of converting nonelectric energy to electric energy and vice versa" So as you posted, a battery satisfies that definition. An alternator wouldn't, since it only converts one way, from mechanical energy to electrical energy, not the other way around. Actually, an alternator is a source too. First, I don't think the "vice versa" part is necessary, though I can't think of a situation where it doesn't exist one way and not the other. An alternator, for example, is a mere extension of Faraday's law so electrical input would indeed result in a force. It's based on the same principles as a speaker or microphone (which are essentially the same thing). You can push down on the cone in an oscillatory manner and a voltage will appear at the terminals, or you can apply a current and the speaker will move. That means that a speaker/microphone can also be considered a source, and in fact it's often modelled as such. Yep - it may be an instance of context. In the pastI have used motor/generators, which obviously do the conversion both ways. The Naval nuclear reactor I trained on when I was enlisted had several of them. Since the alternator in a car is never used to convert electrical energy to mechanical energy, I guess it can't be considered a "source" - in THAT context. Scott Gardner |
#68
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when is capacitors used?
Actually, an alternator is a source too. First, I don't think the "vice
versa" part is necessary, though I can't think of a situation where it doesn't exist one way and not the other. An alternator, for example, is a mere extension of Faraday's law so electrical input would indeed result in a force. It's based on the same principles as a speaker or microphone (which are essentially the same thing). You can push down on the cone in an oscillatory manner and a voltage will appear at the terminals, or you can apply a current and the speaker will move. That means that a speaker/microphone can also be considered a source, and in fact it's often modelled as such. Yep - it may be an instance of context. In the pastI have used motor/generators, which obviously do the conversion both ways. The Naval nuclear reactor I trained on when I was enlisted had several of them. Since the alternator in a car is never used to convert electrical energy to mechanical energy, I guess it can't be considered a "source" - in THAT context. I don't believe that a source needs to operate both ways. It certainly doesn't need to in a circuit. So if you can't use context as the criteria. |
#69
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when is capacitors used?
when we used to test alternators out on tractors and very old cars we used
to hook them up backwards to see if they would spin without bearing noise. "Scott Gardner" wrote in message ... On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:29:09 -0500, "Mark Zarella" wrote: You're absolutely right, Mark. I should have gone back to my "Electric Circuits" textbook (dug off the shelf after too many years, obvioiusly) BEFORE I posted my reply. Here's the definition of "Source" from that book - "a device that is capable of converting nonelectric energy to electric energy and vice versa" So as you posted, a battery satisfies that definition. An alternator wouldn't, since it only converts one way, from mechanical energy to electrical energy, not the other way around. Actually, an alternator is a source too. First, I don't think the "vice versa" part is necessary, though I can't think of a situation where it doesn't exist one way and not the other. An alternator, for example, is a mere extension of Faraday's law so electrical input would indeed result in a force. It's based on the same principles as a speaker or microphone (which are essentially the same thing). You can push down on the cone in an oscillatory manner and a voltage will appear at the terminals, or you can apply a current and the speaker will move. That means that a speaker/microphone can also be considered a source, and in fact it's often modelled as such. Yep - it may be an instance of context. In the pastI have used motor/generators, which obviously do the conversion both ways. The Naval nuclear reactor I trained on when I was enlisted had several of them. Since the alternator in a car is never used to convert electrical energy to mechanical energy, I guess it can't be considered a "source" - in THAT context. Scott Gardner |
#70
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... the only power source in a car is the alt not batt. and a batt. is a storage device like the cap. A battery is a source. a battery is not a source for power just a storage device. A battery can't generate it's own power. |
#71
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... A battery is a source. I agree with Ghee on this one. Both batteries and capacitors are storage devices. Batteries are the prototypical voltage source. Open any electronics or physics text and they're using batteries as sources. Batteries store and release energy by chemical reactions, wheras capacitors store and release energy by means of a differential charge between two plates separated by a dielectric. The only thing in a car that actually generates electrical energy is the alternator, by means of relative motion between a magnetic field and wire windings. The key difference of course is that batteries CREATE charge by transducing energy from chemical potential to electrical potential. Therefore, it's a source. Your argument is based on the premise that it stores energy, therefore it cannot be a source. That it stores energy is irrelevant, because energy must by definition (conservation of energy) always be accessible by any voltage source so that a potential difference can be generated. It doesn't matter whether the energy is in the form of chemical potential, temperature gradients, magnetic fields, or atomic forces. A device that transduces one form of energy into a voltage is a voltage source. A device that transduces energy into a current is a current source. Capacitors do not do this. They strictly store charge. They do nothing else. No energy transduction, no charge generation. if a battery has no charge it can't generate it's own power you hook a battery up with no supply source and it'll deplete it power/energy. with an alt. this can never happen. |
#72
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when is capacitors used?
if a battery has no charge it can't generate it's own power you hook a
battery up with no supply source and it'll deplete it power/energy. with an alt. this can never happen. sure it can. What happens when an alternator goes bad? It stops loosing the ability to provide power. Does that mean it was never a power source? No. The same is true for a battery. It IS a power source, just because it becomes completed does not make it less of a power source than it was before. What is the power source for your remotes and other batt. operated devices? Les |
#73
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when is capacitors used?
if a battery has no charge it can't generate it's own power you hook a
battery up with no supply source and it'll deplete it power/energy. with an alt. this can never happen. The battery will only deplete its energy if the electrochemical gradient is no longer sufficient to generate a charge. Under normal conditions, this gradient generates charge through an energy transduction process that turns chemical energy into electrical energy. Likewise, an alternator will deplete its energy if the mechanical energy is disrupted. It's the same process. One turns chemical energy into electrical energy, the other turns mechanical energy into electrical energy. Disrupting the energy pathway eliminates the device's ability to generate electrical energy. |
#74
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when is capacitors used?
A battery is a source.
a battery is not a source for power just a storage device. A battery can't generate it's own power. Of course it can. A battery, just like any other source, converts one form of energy into electrical energy. Power is the time rate of energy. A battery doesn't "store charge". It stores energy. There's an energy transduction process that you're intentionally ignoring. If you were to prevent the battery from performing the necessary chemical reactions to generate charge (perhaps by manipulating the temperature), you wouldn't have a charge. The same cannot be said of a capacitor, whose sole job is to store charge. |
#75
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when is capacitors used?
"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
... if a battery has no charge it can't generate it's own power you hook a battery up with no supply source and it'll deplete it power/energy. with an alt. this can never happen. sure it can. What happens when an alternator goes bad? It stops loosing the ability to provide power. Does that mean it was never a power source? No. The same is true for a battery. It IS a power source, just because it becomes completed does not make it less of a power source than it was before. What is the power source for your remotes and other batt. operated devices? Les it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own power. |
#76
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when is capacitors used?
it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own
power. It holds potential energy, not potential. If it's a voltage storage device, what charges it up? |
#77
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when is capacitors used?
it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own
power. Yes it does. It takes a chemical reaction and turns it into electrical energy. Do battery operated devices need a power source? Yes. And what is that power source? A battery. Les |
#78
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when is capacitors used?
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message
... it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own power. It holds potential energy, not potential. If it's a voltage storage device, what charges it up? the alt. |
#79
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when is capacitors used?
"Soundfreak03" wrote in message
... it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own power. Yes it does. It takes a chemical reaction and turns it into electrical energy. Do battery operated devices need a power source? Yes. And what is that power source? A battery. Les a car battery and a Duracell are different. |
#80
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when is capacitors used?
it's a storage device it holds potential, it doesn't generate it's own
power. It holds potential energy, not potential. If it's a voltage storage device, what charges it up? the alt. I don't have an alternator to charge my flashlight batteries. |
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