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#81
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speaker protection
ID ROCKS[flame] -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#82
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speaker protection
I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp overdriven
far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause the speaker to freak out and heat up. And the speaker would freak out how? The speaker doesn't have a mind, it simply plays what is fed to it. It really isn't that complicated of a concept to grasp. As long as it can handle the power being fed to it, the speaker will play whatever its given. You should re-read all posts in this thread, as well as look at the link Mr. Zarella posted to an article he wrote. Some smart people have posted on this thread in response to you, something they really didn't need to take their time to do; since they basically reiterated the same points in different ways to try to make you understand. There is a lot to be learned by going over those postings. I appreciate the physical evidence layed out by Mark and others. Jamie |
#83
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speaker protection
"BANDIT2941" wrote in message ... I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp overdriven far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause the speaker to freak out and heat up. And the speaker would freak out how? The speaker doesn't have a mind, it simply plays what is fed to it. It really isn't that complicated of a concept to grasp. As long as it can handle the power being fed to it, the speaker will play whatever its given. A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated signal. |
#84
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speaker protection
e=MC2 TO THE THIRD POWER WITH NEG INFLUX TO THE ORBITAL PATERN TO MARS WHILE HAVING POSITIVE ION ATTACHMENT TO SEA WATER. WHO CARES. [flame] -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#85
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speaker protection
A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal. A speaker does not care as long as you do not exceed the thermal limits. What part of that dont you understand?? Sure it sounds bad but unless you give it more power than it can handle then it will not damage it. That has been the whole point of this thread. Yet you STILL think that a square wave or whatever wave will damage a speaker. It is not that simple. I am still waiting for you to bring some evidence to back up the points you have made in this thread. So far you have provided nithing. To Cujo; You have a responsibility to your customers and the car audio business in general to have accurate knowledge. I am glad that you have had no returns but if you continue the misinformation about power ratings and "underpowering" and clipping you are doing a disservice to you customers. Keeping a myth alive whether by lying or by ignorance is not helping people understand audio. Give an installer a solid basis in physics and electronics and they will be 10 times more effective. I cannot think of anyone that would disagree with this. BTW: when you reply qoute the text you are talking about so that everyone can follow, otherwise we never know. Les |
#86
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speaker protection
Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended. You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well. Now with your attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical THEORY with little or no actual hands on. Probably been in the industry 3-5 years. The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no knowledge in physics. Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the day. I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt blow speakers. As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all together. And try to match power with consumption. I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours. -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#87
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speaker protection
I only had 2 semesters of physics, but I would think that an amp overdriven
far beyond its capabilites would create some distortion that would cause the speaker to freak out and heat up. Cause the speaker to "freak out"? Being a bit vague perhaps? As I previously mentioned, heat in this case can only come from electrical power. Not special waveforms. This is basically the underlying theme of the first law of thermodynamics (kinda sorta). No, the waveform has very little to do with anything as long as the frequency is high enough to allow for the cone motion to sufficiently move air and dissipate heat (anything over a few Hz is fine for this). Power content has everything to do with it. The speaker doesn't care whether the increase in power is due to clipping or due to just using a more powerful amp. The only thing the speaker cares about is how much current is flowing through the coil. That's it, nothing more. |
#88
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speaker protection
A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated
signal. Do you not know that Fourier proved many many years ago that a square wave is nothing more than the sum of a combination of sine waves? |
#89
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speaker protection
Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended.
You should not be. I said people either lie, as in they know the truth and say otherwise, or they are ignorant. Now ignorant was not meant as an insult, it just means that you lack the knowledge. And you even admit you dont know, that it was just what you were told. You take things however you wish. You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well. You seem to have a problem understanding that they were wrong. They never provided you scientific proof. And did you ever think to question the sales rep?? 9 out of 10 times they send out a marketing or sales rep to educate you, not an engineer. I have been to several of these and never once gotten an engineer, It does happen though. Now with your attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical THEORY with little or no actual hands on. And you would assume wrong. I have obtained most of my knowledge by reading AND experimenting. My hands on experience is quite extensive. So do you think that an installer that has a solid background in electrical theory would not be a better installer? You must have the theory first before you can apply it. Just knowing this is how you do something but not knowing why makes someone a competent installer, but it would be hard for them to be more than just that. If you do not have the knowledge how can you manipulate it to make it fit the situation you are trying to correct. Probably been in the industry 3-5 years. Made a living at it for 5 years, but it has since become a hobby, an expensive one, and now I make my living as a Pro audio engineer. Way more fun for me, and you sure as hell better have a good background in electrical theory or your likely to get yourself or someone else hurt. The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no knowledge in physics. So? Do you think he would have benefited from it? I never said you could not be a good installer but I think you would be a better one if you added more knowledge. Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the day. Well they taught you wrong. I am pointing that out. If you have some reason to think I am wrong then we will discuss it, but we have to discuss it on a scientific level because the excuse of thats the way I was taught just doesnt have alot of weight. I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt blow speakers. Good. Then why defend the way you were taught? Why not go with your sense and find out why? If it makes sense to you that underpowering does not blow speakers then why did you not question those people telling you just that? As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all together. But it will come up and what do you tell them? Being able to give the customer a correct consice answer makes you a better installer. If you cannot give them the correct answer then they may continue to believe the lies and then the myths perpetuate. If you love car audio so much why would you want that to continue? I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours. I understood you perfectly. I merely said that you are doing a disservice to your customers by not being able to inform them the correct answer. So maybe your comprehension skills could use a little work. Oh ya, you still didnt quote. It is really not that hard and you look a lot more intelligent when you can figure out that simple feature. Les |
#90
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speaker protection
"Pug Fugley" wrote in message ink.net... A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated signal. A sine wave? That's it? Rarely do I listen to music that is composed of sine waves. A sine wave is one of the dullest sounds out there. The human voice, a flute, a saxophone, a guitar, drums (gasp!)... these produce anything but a sine wave. And my speakers handle them just fine. THE ONLY REASON CLIPPING MAY DAMAGE A SPEAKER IS IF THAT SPEAKER WAS BEING DRIVEN CLOSE TO IT'S LIMITS *BEFORE* THE CLIPPING STARTED, AND IS THUS BEING DRIVING BEYOND IT'S LIMITS (+ ~30% ) WHEN CLIPPING BEGINS. This has been explained to you in every imaginable way I can think of. A 400w capable sub CANNOT be damaged by a 50w capable amp *if* these numbers are accurate. At full clipping that 50w amp would not exceed 400w and thus the sub would play it's square wave just fine. The shape of the wave is not the issue, it's the power delivery that wave is capable of. Since a square wave can deliver more power to the voice coil, than it is possible to blow a sub by clipping already-near-its-limits output. And this would be called "overpowering." -Bill |
#91
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speaker protection
A speaker is designed to play a sine wave, not a square wave or a saturated signal. The speaker doesn't care! It plays whatever signal is sent to it, provided it can handle the power. |
#92
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speaker protection
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message .. . If used properly "clipping" can yield almost 30% power, You can deliver more than 30% more power if you clip severely. It's limited only by the output impedance of the amplifier. didn't know that about how much more can you extract?? |
#93
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speaker protection
Soundfreak03 wrote:
Now i I neither lie nor am I ignorant. So by that i am a bit offended. You should not be. I said people either lie, as in they know the truth and say otherwise, or they are ignorant. Now ignorant was not meant as an insult, it just means that you lack the knowledge. And you even admit you dont know, that it was just what you were told. You take things however you wish. You seem to have a problem understanding that this is how I was taught by these companies. And i am assuming pug as well. You seem to have a problem understanding that they were wrong. They never provided you scientific proof. And did you ever think to question the sales rep?? 9 out of 10 times they send out a marketing or sales rep to educate you, not an engineer. I have been to several of these and never once gotten an engineer, It does happen though. Now with your attitude i guess i am safe in assuming you are one of these people mecp certified probably from a course with a strong knowledge in electrical THEORY with little or no actual hands on. And you would assume wrong. I have obtained most of my knowledge by reading AND experimenting. My hands on experience is quite extensive. So do you think that an installer that has a solid background in electrical theory would not be a better installer? You must have the theory first before you can apply it. Just knowing this is how you do something but not knowing why makes someone a competent installer, but it would be hard for them to be more than just that. If you do not have the knowledge how can you manipulate it to make it fit the situation you are trying to correct. Probably been in the industry 3-5 years. Made a living at it for 5 years, but it has since become a hobby, an expensive one, and now I make my living as a Pro audio engineer. Way more fun for me, and you sure as hell better have a good background in electrical theory or your likely to get yourself or someone else hurt. The best installer i have evr seen was a drummer. With no knowledge in physics. So? Do you think he would have benefited from it? I never said you could not be a good installer but I think you would be a better one if you added more knowledge. Lets end this with this. In no way was I defending underpowering blows speakers. I was defending this is the way we were taught back in the day. Well they taught you wrong. I am pointing that out. If you have some reason to think I am wrong then we will discuss it, but we have to discuss it on a scientific level because the excuse of thats the way I was taught just doesnt have alot of weight. I also stated that it would make sense that underpowering couldnt blow speakers. Good. Then why defend the way you were taught? Why not go with your sense and find out why? If it makes sense to you that underpowering does not blow speakers then why did you not question those people telling you just that? As for my customers i tend to stay off that subject all together. But it will come up and what do you tell them? Being able to give the customer a correct consice answer makes you a better installer. If you cannot give them the correct answer then they may continue to believe the lies and then the myths perpetuate. If you love car audio so much why would you want that to continue? I would think that an edumacated person like youself would have some english comprehension to back up that physics degree of yours. I understood you perfectly. I merely said that you are doing a disservice to your customers by not being able to inform them the correct answer. So maybe your comprehension skills could use a little work. Oh ya, you still didnt quote. It is really not that hard and you look a lot more intelligent when you can figure out that simple feature. Les Back at it again Les???? EFFENDI |
#94
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speaker protection
Back at it again Les????
EFFENDI You know me. Except this time I wasn't even trying to offend him. They are just ignorant to the meaning of ignorant, and lack some reading skills. Les |
#95
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speaker protection
Jesus you know what you dwaddling techno loser. You need to read the posts at what i was saying. Its people like you that bore and dull this industry. Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech. And i dont care to quote. -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#96
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speaker protection
Jesus you know what you dwaddling techno loser. You need to read the
posts at what i was saying. Its people like you that bore and dull this industry. Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech. And i dont care to quote. You dont care to quote because you cant figure it out. I am fun to hang out with and do some badass stuff in my off time, but hey I dont really care what you think, everyone I have installed for have not only had thier expectations met but exceeded. Your just upset that someone pointed out that your NOT meeting your customers needs because you dont have the BASIC knowledge of car audio electronics. It is not all theory, its PRACTICAL. You should have this knowledge. You should know what clipping is and its effects. You should know exactly how it effects a system. But you don't. You have a responsibility to the industry as an installer to have the knowledge directly relevent to the industry. If every installer had that knowledge, and the desire to have the knowledge, I think the reputation would be different. We should all be learning new things and challenge things that do not make sense. Hey even if your wrong at least you went through a thought process and you thought about WHY something was or wasnt or worked or didnt work. But we have too many installers like you who know how to put in a HU and a couple speakers, perhaps a fairly basic system and think thats all there is. Well its not. Les |
#97
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speaker protection
Im glad that you arent in this industry, so other shops dont
have to hear the ever popular that guy is a dick speech. BTW: I was never a dick to the customers. But I always am to halfway competent installers who could barely trace a signal path and will actually call themselves experienced without having basic electronics knowledge that is absolutely essential to the industry. It not just theory its practical and applicable knowledge. Les |
#98
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speaker protection
Tha Ghee wrote:
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message .. . If used properly "clipping" can yield almost 30% power, You can deliver more than 30% more power if you clip severely. It's limited only by the output impedance of the amplifier. didn't know that about how much more can you extract?? Depends on the amp. In theory (that is, assuming an output impedance of zero), you should be able to get 100% more power. But amplifier output impedances aren't zero. If you assume that a particular amplifier has an output impedance of, say, 0.25 ohms, and the speaker is 4 ohms across the entire bandwidth, then you're talking something like 16/17 = 94%. This is assuming a pretty low/constant output Z and a speaker impedance of 4 ohms across the entire frequency bandwidth, which is an "ideal" situation, so to speak. Oh, and also severe clipping such that the entire signal is clipped all the time and fully creating a square wave out of a sine wave - not usually realistic. |
#99
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speaker protection
Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing your own pole. Number one I am not an installer, never said I was. Dont know where you got that. Maybe your little fantasy world where you are queen and everybody thinks you are a god. And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list right now. And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through. So You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious. I NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES. So go back to the mirror rub your own nipples some more and go back to your fairy land. And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your hole. -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#100
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speaker protection
Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing
your own pole. Ok leave your homo fantasies in your mind, none of us really care. Number one I am not an installer, never said I was. Well you sure as hell implied it "And sure as **** i remember them saying and emphasizing that underpowering a speaker will blow it. For years i heard this." I dont know of those manufactures who just let anyone off the street just come to thier training, You have to be an installer typically. Or how about this. "I love car audio. I love working in the industry. And this is all i care about i have never had a customer bring back a system that I laid out for him for any reason." Customers? But your not an installer. I just assumed that someone going through tech training and that has customers with systems that they are an installer. Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how to install. But if your not an installer your posts would lead one to think otherwise, you used present tense everytime you talked about your "customers". If they were in the past you should learn to use past tense. Dont know where you got that. From your posts. Maybe your little fantasy world where you are queen and everybody thinks you are a god. Ok what is your deal with your homo tendecies? We dont care. And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list right now. Nah, your just too much of a dumbass to figure it out. I thought at first maybe you were just ignorant but now I just think your an idiot. And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through. I pointed out that you should know exactly what clipping is and the effects on the system. You said that it doesnt make sense and I said you should follow up on that and find out why. By not doing that you are doing a disservice to the industry that you say you love. But instead you dont care, and just let the myth continue. Thats just stupid. That is the exact attitude that makes alot of people HATE shops, "I dont care", and you have it. o You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious Ok, I am waiting. I NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES. I know. I told you to go with your senses and find out WHY. My last 2 posts to you have dealt with that. Read them again. I realize that you dont think it makes sense, but I also realize that you dont know why. And if you love car audio then one would think you would want to know why. So who is overlooking the obvious. So go back to the mirror rub your own nipples some more and go back to your fairy land. Enough with the homo talk. And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your hole. I did. I made assumptions based on your posts which implied you were an installer. I also agreed that you dont think clipping blows speakers. But I have tried to get you to the the merit in finding out why. But like most shops out there you have the attitude of "I know enough, I don't care" And that is exactly the reason that so many people are inherently mistrustful of shops. Think about it. For anyone still reading what do you think. Should installers have basic electronics knowledge? Should they know what clipping is and what it does and why? And then of course expand it to ohms and caps and the other myths. But to me it seems essential. Les |
#101
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this whole damn mess called r.a.c.
Soundfreak03 wrote:
Can you read at all. Or do you just try to spend all your time rubbing your own pole. Ok leave your homo fantasies in your mind, none of us really care. Number one I am not an installer, never said I was. Well you sure as hell implied it "And sure as **** i remember them saying and emphasizing that underpowering a speaker will blow it. For years i heard this." I dont know of those manufactures who just let anyone off the street just come to thier training, You have to be an installer typically. Or how about this. "I love car audio. I love working in the industry. And this is all i care about i have never had a customer bring back a system that I laid out for him for any reason." Customers? But your not an installer. I just assumed that someone going through tech training and that has customers with systems that they are an installer. Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how to install. But if your not an installer your posts would lead one to think otherwise, you used present tense everytime you talked about your "customers". If they were in the past you should learn to use past tense. Dont know where you got that. From your posts. Maybe your little fantasy world where you are queen and everybody thinks you are a god. Ok what is your deal with your homo tendecies? We dont care. And maybe I will learn to quote, just isnt on my things to do list right now. Nah, your just too much of a dumbass to figure it out. I thought at first maybe you were just ignorant but now I just think your an idiot. And where do you keep getting me mistaken with the whole clipping thing. I was pointing out training that I have gone through. I pointed out that you should know exactly what clipping is and the effects on the system. You said that it doesnt make sense and I said you should follow up on that and find out why. By not doing that you are doing a disservice to the industry that you say you love. But instead you dont care, and just let the myth continue. Thats just stupid. That is the exact attitude that makes alot of people HATE shops, "I dont care", and you have it. o You have already bored the hell out of me. You seem more content on proving that you know everything that you overlooked the obvious Ok, I am waiting. I NEVER SAID CLIPPING BLOWS SPEAKERS. I STATED A FACT ON HOW I WAS TRAINED BY THESE COMPANIES. I know. I told you to go with your senses and find out WHY. My last 2 posts to you have dealt with that. Read them again. I realize that you dont think it makes sense, but I also realize that you dont know why. And if you love car audio then one would think you would want to know why. So who is overlooking the obvious. So go back to the mirror rub your own nipples some more and go back to your fairy land. Enough with the homo talk. And maybe the day will come when you might think before you open your hole. I did. I made assumptions based on your posts which implied you were an installer. I also agreed that you dont think clipping blows speakers. But I have tried to get you to the the merit in finding out why. But like most shops out there you have the attitude of "I know enough, I don't care" And that is exactly the reason that so many people are inherently mistrustful of shops. Think about it. For anyone still reading what do you think. Should installers have basic electronics knowledge? Should they know what clipping is and what it does and why? And then of course expand it to ohms and caps and the other myths. But to me it seems essential. Les **** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post. I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car. I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping **** real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend. I have gone from selling car audio to installing it. I been in this for a while like most of the halfway decent people on here. Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in something like this. Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do. EFENDI |
#102
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speaker protection
I never implied I was an installer. SOUNSTREAM, ORION,HIFONICS,PPI,CLARION,ALPINE.MEMPHIS,JL AUDIO,INFINITY,MB QUART,FOCAL,MARK ANTONY,CRYSTAL MOBILE SOUND,KOVE,KENWOOD, AND A FEW OTHERS I CANT REMEMBER were the tech trainings i have been to. And none of them were just for installers.If you are in the industry definately you have been to trainings and you should know that they are for an entire shop. And in some cases entire regions. They were for sales, installers,MANAGERS,(theres an implication dumbass) and owners. Hell a couple were open for guests as well. Now as far as clipping goes, I dont have to worry about it for 1. I dont sell subs with underpowered amps. 2.sell underpowered amps for a customer sub. 3. Advise in any way that doing so is ok 4. AND FOR THE OVERALL REASON IS IT SOUNDS LIKE ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont know of any customer in the world who actually wants to sit down and hear somebody spit out Sir Isaac Newton for severall hours when all they want to do is bump. A sales persons job is to help the customer make the best choice possible. Talking tech with 90% of the customers will make them run out the door. Here lets try this customer: Mr sales guy I have a jensen 50 watt amp and i want to run my JL 12w3D2. I was worried that it isnt enough power. I heard that it could hurt the sub is that true. Sales guy: no that isnt true,BUT IT WILL SOUND LIKE ASS. You would be better going with a better amp. No techno garbage GET IT[flame] -- cujo613 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Posted via RealCarAudio.com - The checkmate of the caraudio community. http://www.RealCarAudio.com cujo613's Profile: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/m...fo&userid=2284 View this thread: http://www.realcaraudio.com/forums/s...threadid=11952 |
#103
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speaker protection
Dont tell me your someone worse, just a salesguy who doesnt even know how
to install. I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice, not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any installer we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when they were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman. Paul Vina |
#104
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speaker protection
I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice,
not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any installer we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when they were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman. Paul Vina Paul, You shouldnt be offended. I have done sales myself, out of the bay for a reason. So like you I was a lowly salesman, but I suspect that you like me also designed systems. That is different than just being a salesman, who says hey buy this, but actually helping to decide not only what gear but how the installation should be. And you cant really design well without know how to install. Right? The comment was meant for those "salesman" who do NOT know how to install. Most of those types of salespeople can only spew back marketing jargon. If my point was unclear that it was directed at those who do not even know how to install I apologize. You are clearly not the type that does not know what they are doing. Les |
#105
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speaker protection
.If you are in the industry definately
you have been to trainings and you should know that they are for an entire shop. And in some cases entire regions. They were for sales, installers,MANAGERS,(theres an implication dumbass) and owners. So even worse. Your a MANAGER of a car audio store? And you do not have basic electronics knowledge? How absurd is that. So all you can do is spout marketing BS right back out. So tell me can you atleast install a HU? Hell a couple were open for guests as well. Now as far as clipping goes, I dont have to worry about it for 1. I dont sell subs with underpowered amps. 2.sell underpowered amps for a customer sub. 3. Advise in any way that doing so is ok You DO have to worry about it. It should be your responsibility as a manager to not only be able to tell your customers but your employees what it is and how it affects the system. A manager is supposed to lead, and what example do you set? That its ok to not give a **** and not know the very basics of car audio. And of course the old thought of I know enough I dont need to learn more. What can you tell the customer that wants to know? What do you do when you get customers that are just wanting to simply augment the low end a bit? Sell them a 500 watt amp when a 100 watt amp will achieve the desired listening level without distortion? 4. AND FOR THE OVERALL REASON IS IT SOUNDS LIKE ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thats still not an excuse for not even knowing what it is. Anybody off the street could tell you that. Then again it would seem that anybody off the street could do your job too. I dont know of any customer in the world who actually wants to sit down and hear somebody spit out Sir Isaac Newton for severall hours when all they want to do is bump. It is simple. Anyone can understand it. Well almost anyone, you still seem to have some trouble. It is ok I am writing a book "Clipping for Dummies" and it is geared for people like you. How many people come in under the false conceptions that "underpowering blows more speakers than overpowering" or "clipping puts out DC" or one of the good ones "clipping will pop a voice coil". And what explanation do you offer when you may know they are untrue but dont know why? Why should they believe you when their buddy told them that. But hey maybe you just get he people that just wanna bump. Throw in a couple of subs and an amp and call it a "system". But when I worked in the shop I dealt with people who wanted it to sound good, look good, and asked questions. Different clientel, based on the rep of your shop. A sales persons job is to help the customer make the best choice possible. Yes. And the best choice cannot always be based on numbers. And they should be able to answer questionsr with some accuracy. And you cant say, unless youve only been working a couple of days, that you havent heard those examples above. What did you tell them? Talking tech with 90% of the customers will make them run out the door. Nah. Only if your a dumbass like yourself who doesnt know how to do it. I had many customers that liked to talk tech. They just didnt want a system they wanted to know what the system is and how it worked and why. Like I said different clientel. Here lets try this customer: Mr sales guy I have a jensen 50 watt amp and i want to run my JL 12w3D2. I was worried that it isnt enough power. I heard that it could hurt the sub is that true. Sales guy: no that isnt true,BUT IT WILL SOUND LIKE ASS. You would be better going with a better amp. No techno garbage GET IT[flame] And what do you tell the customer when they want to know why? You just sound like some dumbass salesman trying to make the bigger sale. Maybe thats all your customers need, just someone to spew marketing BS back to them. But all the shops that have the reputation of being good also have the reputation of knowing thier ****. Those guys could explain to you all the "techno garbage" and tell you how it applies to the particular situation. Face it, car audio is based on the "techno garbage". You dont need to know how to design an amp but you should at least have a basic understanding of how it functions. You should know basically how a speaker works, and you should know what clipping is, and what a capacitor really is and what it can really do. And most importantly you should know WHY. Anyone can spew back **** they heard, but actually understanding why is what the installers, the supposed experts, should know. And a manager of the store should sure as hell know. GET IT???? Les |
#106
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this whole damn mess called r.a.c.
**** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem
to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post. Your right. And I would have let it go except for the fact that the guy works in the industry and does not even care to learn. Thats just stupid. I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car. We are agreed. I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping **** real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend. Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in something like this. Sounds like a good idea. You could have discussions. But alas I would probably have to stay most out of it as I have no patience for idiots who think the laws of physics somehow do not apply to cars. Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do. EFENDI Agreed. You know we actually agreed on something. And if we can get along here then anyone can Les |
#107
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this whole damn mess called r.a.c.
Soundfreak03 wrote:
**** Les you should just let this go. These are situations that you seem to love responding to; I say let people go on being ****heads. If they dont want to learn its they own problem. If you want to change that by contributing to something positive then skip to the end of my post. Your right. And I would have let it go except for the fact that the guy works in the industry and does not even care to learn. Thats just stupid. It is stupid so let it go man. I digress. As a beginning installer myself I must say that unless you have some kind of first hand knowledge of electronic theory and the practical application of it you should be nowhere near any customers car. We are agreed. I cant believe that half of the people on here do not understand clipping. It just shows you how misinformed the consumers of this industry are. What more is that the marketing in this industry is full of misinformation and bull****. Im trying to change that by keeping **** real. You all got to be willing to learn. Dont bust out answers to questions of which magnitude you cant even begin to comprehend. Think its time that we just school everyone in a giant thread? Basic electronic theory, wiring, etc. I know there are some brilliant people on here with a ton of knowledge that can help everyone. I want to offer something of a level of MECP education. But discussed in different threads on a weekly basis. Even a name of the school/thread should be considered. I am willing to contribute to this effort if everyone else is. I jus think that if everyone on here has an equal understanding it would be a lot more 'fun'. Holla back at me if you are interested in something like this. Sounds like a good idea. You could have discussions. But alas I would probably have to stay most out of it as I have no patience for idiots who think the laws of physics somehow do not apply to cars. The purpose of what I want to do is to teach those willing to learn. Not to tolerate those who have chosen (thats right ignorance is a choice) to be ignorant. Cleaning the bull**** off the walls. Hey it aint a nice job but we have an obligation in some form if we have any passion for what we do. EFENDI Agreed. You know we actually agreed on something. And if we can get along here then anyone can As long as we share the same ideas and passion then there should be no reason to disagree. Nah mean? You are a knowledgable person that needs to put that knowledge to work instead of wasting your time arguing with people. I am serious about this effort because I really want some help in some areas that I really dont know anything about. But I feel that I have enough knowledge and first hand experience in some areas that I can share with others. I am willing to orchestrate a weekly/biweekly thread and topic and discuss it with members of this newsgroup. I am willing to set up a yahoo group with a mailing list if anyone is interested. Les |
#108
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speaker protection
You're right. I've always been really intrigued by audio and electronics
so I've always wanted to learn as much as I could about it. Maybe it's because I'm left handed. You know what's funny, I still design systems for people. They'll see my posts here or on SD and for some reason they just email me out of the blue. I don't mind (I actually think it's fun) just strange that someone with no more knowledge of a person than what they type into a computer, would solicit advice on something as personal as an audio system from someone they've never even seen. Paul Vina "Soundfreak03" wrote in message ... I take offense to that. I never worked in the install bay out of choice, not because I couldn't and I had as much or more training than any installer we had and even would go in the bay to help them figure things out when they were having problems or couldn't grasp what I wanted them to do. Hell, I even did a lot of their troubleshooting in the parking lot to keep from wasting their time with easy fixes. An all I was was a lowly salesman. Paul Vina Paul, You shouldnt be offended. I have done sales myself, out of the bay for a reason. So like you I was a lowly salesman, but I suspect that you like me also designed systems. That is different than just being a salesman, who says hey buy this, but actually helping to decide not only what gear but how the installation should be. And you cant really design well without know how to install. Right? The comment was meant for those "salesman" who do NOT know how to install. Most of those types of salespeople can only spew back marketing jargon. If my point was unclear that it was directed at those who do not even know how to install I apologize. You are clearly not the type that does not know what they are doing. Les |
#109
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speaker protection
Soundfreak03 wrote:
So even worse. Your a MANAGER of a car audio store? And you do not have basic electronics knowledge? How absurd is that Its not absurd at all! SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner |
#110
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speaker protection
Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K Paul Vina |
#111
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COmpetence and Expereince speaker protection
Its a legit question ... All my guys are somewhat involved in
electronics, all but my 1 afterschool helper are active ham radio operators with valid liscenses, it does take a passing score on a goverment test to get the liscense, and it proves they have a resonable electronics background.... Everyone here has passed my own installer test as well - http://installer.com/tech/test.html Some of them are even MECP certified but thats not something I require, experience and the HAM test far surpass the MECP requirements IMO... They can all operate a meter, an osciloscope, an oscillator, and they all have been trained by me in troubleshooting techniques.... But still I sometimes hear my guys answer the odd question by a customer in a way I would not answer it.... Sometimes in my own store I hear the MYTHS retold by my own people.... it happens! and no one knows everything...... Week before last even I told a customer something would work and it didnt work, I was sure positive, I would have bet on it, and it ends up I was mistaken bigtime.... Oh well... ?? ha ha But still, shop around, most of the shops are staffed by folks that can handle the average customer (maybe) but few are staffed by anyone that knows much about audio or car installation of anything past the basic PLUG IN HARNESS and MOUNT THE KIT installation..... Here is a good story, I have told it before but you may or may not have heard it... In the old days there were none of the wire harnesses like we have today, installers from my generation had to CUT the wires and figgure out what each wire was as we installed the car stereos.... When the wire harnesses started coming out in the early 1990s the problem for a store owner like me was that the installers tended to give the harness away with the install, so I had my guys do it the old fasioned way for many years, I always told them it made them a much better installer than the installers at the average shop... One of my installers that worked here about 7 years earned his engineering degree and went from here to work at NASA... Once he told me that my training has heled his so much when working at NASA he thanked me for making him do things like wire the radios the hard way because it made him better! Here is a picture of my ex installer Brandt (also a ham radio operator BTW) he is in a space suit working in the NBL (Neutral Boyancy Labratory) where he taught the astronauts how to use tools in space to build the space station. http://installer.com/tech/Welker.jpg Makes me think my guys are at least a little above average... ;-) Eddie Runner River Oaks Car Stereo HOUSTON Paul Vina wrote: Its not absurd at all! SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K Paul Vina |
#112
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COmpetence and Expereince speaker protection
That's what my old shop was like. There was a lot of in-house training
going on. The biggest thing I got from him was his troubleshooting skills. Before I worked there I would go around in circles instead of following a logical path and it's made me 100 times better. Paul Vina "Eddie Runner" wrote in message ... Its a legit question ... All my guys are somewhat involved in electronics, all but my 1 afterschool helper are active ham radio operators with valid liscenses, it does take a passing score on a goverment test to get the liscense, and it proves they have a resonable electronics background.... Everyone here has passed my own installer test as well - http://installer.com/tech/test.html Some of them are even MECP certified but thats not something I require, experience and the HAM test far surpass the MECP requirements IMO... They can all operate a meter, an osciloscope, an oscillator, and they all have been trained by me in troubleshooting techniques.... But still I sometimes hear my guys answer the odd question by a customer in a way I would not answer it.... Sometimes in my own store I hear the MYTHS retold by my own people.... it happens! and no one knows everything...... Week before last even I told a customer something would work and it didnt work, I was sure positive, I would have bet on it, and it ends up I was mistaken bigtime.... Oh well... ?? ha ha But still, shop around, most of the shops are staffed by folks that can handle the average customer (maybe) but few are staffed by anyone that knows much about audio or car installation of anything past the basic PLUG IN HARNESS and MOUNT THE KIT installation..... Here is a good story, I have told it before but you may or may not have heard it... In the old days there were none of the wire harnesses like we have today, installers from my generation had to CUT the wires and figgure out what each wire was as we installed the car stereos.... When the wire harnesses started coming out in the early 1990s the problem for a store owner like me was that the installers tended to give the harness away with the install, so I had my guys do it the old fasioned way for many years, I always told them it made them a much better installer than the installers at the average shop... One of my installers that worked here about 7 years earned his engineering degree and went from here to work at NASA... Once he told me that my training has heled his so much when working at NASA he thanked me for making him do things like wire the radios the hard way because it made him better! Here is a picture of my ex installer Brandt (also a ham radio operator BTW) he is in a space suit working in the NBL (Neutral Boyancy Labratory) where he taught the astronauts how to use tools in space to build the space station. http://installer.com/tech/Welker.jpg Makes me think my guys are at least a little above average... ;-) Eddie Runner River Oaks Car Stereo HOUSTON Paul Vina wrote: Its not absurd at all! SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner Is yours? lmao! I had to do it Eddie! J/K Paul Vina |
#113
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speaker protection
Its not absurd at all!
SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner Too true. And its unforntunate. Then again I could most likely run a successful business fixing botched installs from other places. Hmmm interesting idea. Les |
#114
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speaker protection
we used to put in out print adds and radio adds that we could
fix what the other places mess up... it was kind of our MOTTO for many years.... It even got us biz direct from other shops that had problems they couldnt overcome by themselves... Soundfreak03 wrote: Its not absurd at all! SHOP AROUND, you might find it is the NORM to find car audio stores staffed with idiots! SHOP AROUND! ha ha ha Eddie Runner Too true. And its unforntunate. Then again I could most likely run a successful business fixing botched installs from other places. Hmmm interesting idea. Les |
#115
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Competence and Expereince speaker protection
so many installers do work in circles when they are troubleshooting... its
funny! and when they fix something that way its because of LUCK not skill.... Its amazing there are so many installers/shops out there like that.... Those logical thinking skills can carry over to ANY job the installer ever takes or anything he ever does... Eddie Paul Vina wrote: That's what my old shop was like. There was a lot of in-house training going on. The biggest thing I got from him was his troubleshooting skills. Before I worked there I would go around in circles instead of following a logical path and it's made me 100 times better. Paul Vina |
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