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#41
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John Stewart wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: As far as I know, the Crowshurst idea with two el cheapo OPTs and which does allow cheap sound, has been in your barrow that you push for goodness knows how many years. Yes! Goodness knows (your words) only a year & a half since I decided to attempt this particular topology. But I'm so old I do recall the original articles beginning in 1957. I had lost track of the circuit but got copies of all three articles from Bill Perkins of PEARL about 12 years ago. I was curious so I finally tried one. The results were so much better than the many other circuits including UL of similar cost I had tried over the years. I've recently completed the 2nd. The results again exceeded my expectations. I might add that an ordinary UL amp using a pair of KT88 PP with a mere 16 db of global FB can produce no more than 0.1% thd at 35 watts using one well designed OPT. To get over twice the power at one fifth of the thd than the test results you quote above does cost a little more than $200, but permit most audiophiles the luxurious choice they make for far better overall performance, albeit at 6 times the diy price. But the audiophiles go to even further expense per watt, and choose SET, and although this seems ludicrous, leave them to it, they know what they are doing. As always, we should expect that throwing money at the project should result in some performance improvements. And they will with Crowhurst's circuit just as they do with any other circuit you might choose. That is a sure thing if properly executed. My articles are directed to ordinary folks who may not have thousands of dollars to gamble on a home built circuit that may fail & possibly kill them as a bonus. The money & effort available needs to be evenly spread over the whole sound system, not just the amplifier. But if it makes you feel more secure to criticize Crowhurst's work, please do. At times your arguments don't even make sense but I read them anyway! Well, your arguments are all ignored by the SET crowd, because they don't make much sense to them either. No amount of preaching will cause them to give up their SETs. I am not worried that the SET fanatics I know think they would never adopt many of my ideas. Luckily many of my customers like PP amps with finnesse and real balls. Patrick Turner. They may be of different faiths, but they are all God's children. Patrick Turner. BTW, my earlier reference to BS had absolutely nothing to do with SET amps as you have erroneously reported. Those are your words. Better go back & carefully read what I said. Not sure how you managed to read that into the thread. I was referring to the seeming inability of Westley to comprehend my responses to his query. And that is still a mystery to anyone, IMO! Cheers, John Stewart |
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#42
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John Stewart wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: Thanks Patrick for getting this tread back on track with a very interesting post. I don't know why so many seem almost ashamed for using feedback. Some brag that their design uses no feedback as if it were a merit of honor. I was impressed that you gave me a complete schematic of an 833 SE amp after only one post. Did you just make it up or did you have it already? The schematic is a design that I recently sent to a colleague who had a customer who wanted an 833 amp. The project didn't go ahead though, which often happens with "customer dreams." He builds more amps than I do, but I do all his critical OPT and schematic design work. What would you do besides a bigger PS to make that tube push 100 - 150 watts. Can the OPT be purchased or has to be custom made? Thanks. There is a pp Hammond OPT which can be used, if you settle for parafeed. This means there is *no* need for a special OPT suited to DC flow, which for a given power level for a given RL will have more primary. turns and a larger but gapped core. That simply moves the problem from the OPT to the choke. Any choke used will need to be properly gapped & be free from parasitic resonances. Don't bother trying a PS choke. The problems that any OPT may bring are not moved anywhere; they stay put in the OPT. The OPT will still need to remain free of saturation from LF signals at 20Hz and of 600 vrms amplitude, and it will need to have low leakage L and low winding losses. The choke from the B+ to 833 anode needs to be about 50H ideally, and the minimum Lp of the AC coupled OPT will be say 100H, so final LP seen by the tube will be 33H. Ra and RL in parallel = RA = about 5k, so the -3dB pole for such a value of RA will be at 5k / ( 33 x 6.28 ) = 24 Hz. This is a bit high for hi-fi, and the choke should really be a pair of 25H chokes in series to give LP = effectively 50H. Thus the LF pole will be at 16 Hz, and now were'e talking. The HF effect of the chokes will just be the self capacitance and stray C, which is easy to keep to a low level, especially if the chokes have divided bobbins and in effect have two coils in series, thus halving self capacitance, and since there would be 4 coils total, self C is reduced to maybe 100pF, hardly likely to affect the HF response as much as the C in the OPT. The choke/parafeed option is sensible, and the chokes can carry twice the turns than an OPT of the same core size, since there are no secondary windings. So the although the chokes may be largish, they will be easily doable. We are talking perhaps 100 watts of plate dissipation, so 85mA at 1,200v, and so the gap won't be huge, and L can be arranged to be high...... The pair of chokes mean that the signal voltage max across each choke won't be much more than 420vrms max. 3 x 33H chokes could be used, or 4 x 25H. Ha ha, lotsa chokin goin on! Patrick Turner. JLS The Hammond is the cheap option. Anything custom will cost more. |
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#43
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Patrick Turner wrote:
That simply moves the problem from the OPT to the choke. Any choke used will need to be properly gapped & be free from parasitic resonances. Don't bother trying a PS choke. The problems that any OPT may bring are not moved anywhere; they stay put in the OPT. The OPT will still need to remain free of saturation from LF signals at 20Hz and of 600 vrms amplitude, and it will need to have low leakage L and low winding losses. The choke from the B+ to 833 anode needs to be about 50H ideally, and the minimum Lp of the AC coupled OPT will be say 100H, so final LP seen by the tube will be 33H. Ra and RL in parallel = RA = about 5k, so the -3dB pole for such a value of RA will be at 5k / ( 33 x 6.28 ) = 24 Hz. This is a bit high for hi-fi, and the choke should really be a pair of 25H chokes in series to give LP = effectively 50H. Thus the LF pole will be at 16 Hz, and now were'e talking. The HF effect of the chokes will just be the self capacitance and stray C, which is easy to keep to a low level, especially if the chokes have divided bobbins and in effect have two coils in series, thus halving self capacitance, and since there would be 4 coils total, self C is reduced to maybe 100pF, hardly likely to affect the HF response as much as the C in the OPT. The choke/parafeed option is sensible, and the chokes can carry twice the turns than an OPT of the same core size, since there are no secondary windings. So the although the chokes may be largish, they will be easily doable. We are talking perhaps 100 watts of plate dissipation, so 85mA at 1,200v, and so the gap won't be huge, and L can be arranged to be high...... The pair of chokes mean that the signal voltage max across each choke won't be much more than 420vrms max. 3 x 33H chokes could be used, or 4 x 25H. Ha ha, lotsa chokin goin on! Patrick Turner. You covered that fairly well with one very important omission, probably the most important of all. That would be insulation in both the transformer & choke. At the voltages & impedances proposed the hipot capability would need to be at least 4 KV & better 5 KV. As you are well aware, if the load should by accident or plan become disconnected while a large signal is present there is a good possibility of insulation punch thru. These triodes made for Class B operation do not on their own provide much damping or control of the output signal, at all. Good Luck to those who would go into that territory! John Stewart |
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#44
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Sorry, trying to get back to West question, which I suppose is "what is the
best amp I can build on a cost-no-objection basis"? I mean, a unit able to drive almost any speaker AND really good sounding. I don't have positive answers ready, but I can try to rule out something: - First, I'd rule out SE because bi- or tri-amping is not included in this scenario and a SE arrangement has many clear disadvantages: 1.1: SE transformers, being affected by DC, have a bad time going down to the 17Hz of the last "A" on a grand piano's keyboard 1.2: 2nd harmonic distortion becomes too high unless the tube is only marginally exploited 1.3: power is low unless tube is "squeezed" very hard (see above 1.2) 1.4: output impedance (damping factor) is not very low unless feedback is employed, therefore the SE is no good candidate to drive difficult loads - Second, I'd exclude Unobtainium tubes and/or "strange" topologies like OTLs because the advantages are more than compensated by the problems - Third, I'd exclude output pentodes 'cause they need an awful lot of feedback to reduce distortion. - Fourth, I'd use only triodes along the signal path to minimise the noise. What is the result? A push-pull of triodes, which has the minimum intrinsic distortion, driven by an all-triode circuit... gosh, it looks like a Williamson... is it a coincidence? OK, in fact I prefer the long-tail phase splitter, but it asks for one extra tube in order to have a feedback inlet point. Now, let us consider the visual impact: BIG bottles with glowing thoriated tungsten filament are more "rewarding". SV811, NOS 845 and many others belong to the realm of Unobtainium and are out. The remaining contenders are the GM-70 and the 211 (some JAN VT-4C can still be bought at 200+$..). The Russian tube delivers 125W instead of 75, costs 1/3 and does not need to be pushed to positive grid. The socket is difficult to find, but an 813 type can be used. Final line-up: a low mu triode, followed by a long-tail splitter, followed by a differential amp big enough to feed the GM-70. Say 6J5, 6SL7, 6BX7 or a couple of trioded EL84s. I don't suggest using DHTs as drives 'cause all the ones I heard were terribly microphonic. There's gain enough for a sensible amount of feedback, which should give a damping factor high enough to drive almost anything (together with the 200WPC powered by a 1250V rail). Is it the best one? I'd still make a PPP with KT88s and use a lower B+ just for common sense and to have a lower transforming ratio-easier made OPT, but the DHTs glow so cool... Sure I cannot say I'm the one who defined the Final Amp... My own big one (now under the welding iron) uses the SV811 and a Williamson clone gain stage, but I'm satisfied with 100W or less. Now I got to deal a bit with other tubes (steel pipes, indeed), my job calls me back... Ciao Fabio "west" ha scritto nel messaggio news  Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west |
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#45
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west wrote:
"Johnny Boy, I had my own biomedical and Nuclear research business which came out with many innovative circuits and retrofits. I have a patent pending for one of them at this time. The sale of my business has allowed me to semi-retire at a relatively young age. I have nothing to prove, especially to a self appointed idiot like you. Translation = *WHACKA*WHACKA*WHACKA*WHACKA......* Adam |
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#46
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Patrick Turner wrote:
Now if you take away the NFB including the local NFB in the OPT arrangment your above $200 amps the THD will be somewhat not so good, with worse spectra than the SET which came off the "ark", as you suggest. Strange that you should mention that point. The same thing happens when you do that to a UL amp. JLS There is of course no reason why the SE amp could not have some NFB applied and thus will measure very much better. |
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#47
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"Fabio Berutti" wrote in message
... Sorry, trying to get back to West question, which I suppose is "what is the best amp I can build on a cost-no-objection basis"? I mean, a unit able to drive almost any speaker AND really good sounding. I don't have positive answers ready, but I can try to rule out something: - First, I'd rule out SE because bi- or tri-amping is not included in this scenario and a SE arrangement has many clear disadvantages: 1.1: SE transformers, being affected by DC, have a bad time going down to the 17Hz of the last "A" on a grand piano's keyboard 1.2: 2nd harmonic distortion becomes too high unless the tube is only marginally exploited 1.3: power is low unless tube is "squeezed" very hard (see above 1.2) 1.4: output impedance (damping factor) is not very low unless feedback is employed, therefore the SE is no good candidate to drive difficult loads - Second, I'd exclude Unobtainium tubes and/or "strange" topologies like OTLs because the advantages are more than compensated by the problems - Third, I'd exclude output pentodes 'cause they need an awful lot of feedback to reduce distortion. - Fourth, I'd use only triodes along the signal path to minimise the noise. What is the result? A push-pull of triodes, which has the minimum intrinsic distortion, driven by an all-triode circuit... gosh, it looks like a Williamson... is it a coincidence? OK, in fact I prefer the long-tail phase splitter, but it asks for one extra tube in order to have a feedback inlet point. Now, let us consider the visual impact: BIG bottles with glowing thoriated tungsten filament are more "rewarding". SV811, NOS 845 and many others belong to the realm of Unobtainium and are out. The remaining contenders are the GM-70 and the 211 (some JAN VT-4C can still be bought at 200+$..). The Russian tube delivers 125W instead of 75, costs 1/3 and does not need to be pushed to positive grid. The socket is difficult to find, but an 813 type can be used. Final line-up: a low mu triode, followed by a long-tail splitter, followed by a differential amp big enough to feed the GM-70. Say 6J5, 6SL7, 6BX7 or a couple of trioded EL84s. I don't suggest using DHTs as drives 'cause all the ones I heard were terribly microphonic. There's gain enough for a sensible amount of feedback, which should give a damping factor high enough to drive almost anything (together with the 200WPC powered by a 1250V rail). Is it the best one? I'd still make a PPP with KT88s and use a lower B+ just for common sense and to have a lower transforming ratio-easier made OPT, but the DHTs glow so cool... Sure I cannot say I'm the one who defined the Final Amp... My own big one (now under the welding iron) uses the SV811 and a Williamson clone gain stage, but I'm satisfied with 100W or less. Now I got to deal a bit with other tubes (steel pipes, indeed), my job calls me back... Ciao Fabio Fabio, Your posts begs a few questions but for just a quickie: I don't understand what you mean than an 845 is almost impossible to find. I see them advertised in many places. Perhaps I'm missing something? maybe someone else knows what he meant? BTW: As hobbyist, our objectives are not usually "cost effective" projects. If we intended to mass produce and sell, that's a different story. west |
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#48
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John Stewart wrote: Patrick Turner wrote: That simply moves the problem from the OPT to the choke. Any choke used will need to be properly gapped & be free from parasitic resonances. Don't bother trying a PS choke. The problems that any OPT may bring are not moved anywhere; they stay put in the OPT. The OPT will still need to remain free of saturation from LF signals at 20Hz and of 600 vrms amplitude, and it will need to have low leakage L and low winding losses. The choke from the B+ to 833 anode needs to be about 50H ideally, and the minimum Lp of the AC coupled OPT will be say 100H, so final LP seen by the tube will be 33H. Ra and RL in parallel = RA = about 5k, so the -3dB pole for such a value of RA will be at 5k / ( 33 x 6.28 ) = 24 Hz. This is a bit high for hi-fi, and the choke should really be a pair of 25H chokes in series to give LP = effectively 50H. Thus the LF pole will be at 16 Hz, and now were'e talking. The HF effect of the chokes will just be the self capacitance and stray C, which is easy to keep to a low level, especially if the chokes have divided bobbins and in effect have two coils in series, thus halving self capacitance, and since there would be 4 coils total, self C is reduced to maybe 100pF, hardly likely to affect the HF response as much as the C in the OPT. The choke/parafeed option is sensible, and the chokes can carry twice the turns than an OPT of the same core size, since there are no secondary windings. So the although the chokes may be largish, they will be easily doable. We are talking perhaps 100 watts of plate dissipation, so 85mA at 1,200v, and so the gap won't be huge, and L can be arranged to be high...... The pair of chokes mean that the signal voltage max across each choke won't be much more than 420vrms max. 3 x 33H chokes could be used, or 4 x 25H. Ha ha, lotsa chokin goin on! Patrick Turner. You covered that fairly well with one very important omission, probably the most important of all. That would be insulation in both the transformer & choke. At the voltages & impedances proposed the hipot capability would need to be at least 4 KV & better 5 KV. In previous posts where use of HV OP circuits are involved I recommended oil filled transformers. Do I have to spell out the obvious dangers of HV circuitry? Such dangers with HV do not stop keen and capable diyers; they enjoy the challenge and the music. As you are well aware, if the load should by accident or plan become disconnected while a large signal is present there is a good possibility of insulation punch thru. I always like to see a zobel network across the OPT primary so that there is a load on the tubes at least at HF. With the ise of a Hammond OPT cap coupled to a HV anode, the OPT primary is at OV potential. Sure, the anode swing could rise to 3 times the B+, say to +3,600V with a back emf, but the rise at the input of the OPT primary will only be to 2,400V. Normal operation of the OPT will involve +/- peak 1,000v maximums at one end of the primary. Keen amateurs will build a sealed box for each choke and OPT and fill each with oil. Amateurs not so keen may suffer insulation breakdown if they don't address the problems of over voltages with limiting circuits or very good insulation. Ppl used to use a pair of points across the OPT to allow a spark where voltages tried to rise too high. This was adjustable with a screw and lock nut, so any HV would arc safely across metal point instead of through or around insulation. These triodes made for Class B operation do not on their own provide much damping or control of the output signal, at all. The 1957 GE book I have lists a PP amp with D1505 triodes good for 1,100 watts. It has the spark gap. Good Luck to those who would go into that territory! Only the foolhardy would try building a HV amp first up. But anything with 300V is potentially deadly. One needs to feel fear when working with tube gear. Patrick Turner. John Stewart |
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#50
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I¹ve been away on vacation and haven¹t been able to follow the threads.
West, stop being such a jerk. Jon |
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#51
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Adam Stouffer wrote:
Translation = *WHACKA*WHACKA*WHACKA*WHACKA......* Adam What's the translation for *WHACKA* ? |
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#52
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"west" ha scritto nel messaggio m... "Fabio Berutti" wrote in message ... Sorry, trying to get back to West question, which I suppose is "what is the best amp I can build on a cost-no-objection basis"? I mean, a unit able to drive almost any speaker AND really good sounding. I don't have positive answers ready, but I can try to rule out something: - First, I'd rule out SE because bi- or tri-amping is not included in this scenario and a SE arrangement has many clear disadvantages: 1.1: SE transformers, being affected by DC, have a bad time going down to the 17Hz of the last "A" on a grand piano's keyboard 1.2: 2nd harmonic distortion becomes too high unless the tube is only marginally exploited 1.3: power is low unless tube is "squeezed" very hard (see above 1.2) 1.4: output impedance (damping factor) is not very low unless feedback is employed, therefore the SE is no good candidate to drive difficult loads - Second, I'd exclude Unobtainium tubes and/or "strange" topologies like OTLs because the advantages are more than compensated by the problems - Third, I'd exclude output pentodes 'cause they need an awful lot of feedback to reduce distortion. - Fourth, I'd use only triodes along the signal path to minimise the noise. What is the result? A push-pull of triodes, which has the minimum intrinsic distortion, driven by an all-triode circuit... gosh, it looks like a Williamson... is it a coincidence? OK, in fact I prefer the long-tail phase splitter, but it asks for one extra tube in order to have a feedback inlet point. Now, let us consider the visual impact: BIG bottles with glowing thoriated tungsten filament are more "rewarding". SV811, NOS 845 and many others belong to the realm of Unobtainium and are out. The remaining contenders are the GM-70 and the 211 (some JAN VT-4C can still be bought at 200+$..). The Russian tube delivers 125W instead of 75, costs 1/3 and does not need to be pushed to positive grid. The socket is difficult to find, but an 813 type can be used. Final line-up: a low mu triode, followed by a long-tail splitter, followed by a differential amp big enough to feed the GM-70. Say 6J5, 6SL7, 6BX7 or a couple of trioded EL84s. I don't suggest using DHTs as drives 'cause all the ones I heard were terribly microphonic. There's gain enough for a sensible amount of feedback, which should give a damping factor high enough to drive almost anything (together with the 200WPC powered by a 1250V rail). Is it the best one? I'd still make a PPP with KT88s and use a lower B+ just for common sense and to have a lower transforming ratio-easier made OPT, but the DHTs glow so cool... Sure I cannot say I'm the one who defined the Final Amp... My own big one (now under the welding iron) uses the SV811 and a Williamson clone gain stage, but I'm satisfied with 100W or less. Now I got to deal a bit with other tubes (steel pipes, indeed), my job calls me back... Ciao Fabio Fabio, Your posts begs a few questions but for just a quickie: I don't understand what you mean than an 845 is almost impossible to find. I see them advertised in many places. These are Chinese 845s. Often SE DHT maniacs crave for NOS tubes and a RCA "world logo" 845 from the Forties costs nowadays about 1 kilo-$, if You manage to find one. It is not a technical issue, new Chinese production 845s are said to be good tubes (I never used one), it's a matter of tube fetish. If You're lucky enough not to be affected by this perversion, then Valve Art 845s are out there by the dozen. Perhaps I'm missing something? maybe someone else knows what he meant? BTW: As hobbyist, our objectives are not usually "cost effective" projects. I know, but each project, Saturn Five included, has a sort of a budget, which means that money is better spent where it delivers maximum result. As an example: a GM-70 will yield more watts than both 845 and 211, it is readily available, according to its anode curves it is in the same league in terms of linearity, AND it can be easily bought for 70-80$ max: why should I pay 200 or 300? I'd save 150$ per tube and then I'd invest 'em in better OPTs or larger filter capacitors. As a 211 / 845 price reference, see http://www.tubedepot.com/211845.html ; http://www.kraudioproducts.com/tubes/845/ ; http://www.tubesandmore.com/ As per the GM-70, see http://www.tubedepot.com/so-gm70.html or http://www.gstube.com/tubes/ (Russian site, much cheaper). Ciao Fabio If we intended to mass produce and sell, that's a different story. west |
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#53
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833 Amp StewartJon,
I believe you are the "jerk." You been on vacation and do not know what has transpired. Are you prone to being a bull in a china closet? You certainly didn't act like an asshole when I was buying your merchandise. I guess you lost another customer for life. BTW: This is the first time that I was involved with any controversy and I hate it. All I have done is to defend myself from repeated attacks by Stewart. I hate this sort of thing, mostly because when garbage is throw out, as I have said in the past, the dogs will come around sniffing (Jon). On the other hand Jon, from what I have observed, has been involved many time with flame wars. I supposed we have witnessed a prime example of the cause. I will never answer a post by (PA or Iverson) because I truly believe for them to be insane, so what they say doesn't mean anything to me or most RATs for that matter. Jon, on the other hand shows moments of civility (not this time) so that's why I am disappointed in him to say the least. You will all notice that I didn't start this thread. Go back on vacation, I think you need it. west "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... I've been away on vacation and haven't been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon |
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#54
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As a general rule, (and there are certainly exceptions) the older a basic tube type the simpler it is to build and the greater likelihood that the Chinese can get it right. They could not possibly get things like Nuvistors and Compactrons to work well but the 845 and 300B and other single triode types are much less challenging to produce. The problem is that there are hundreds of Chinese tube plants, all backwoods operations to one extent or other, and no traceability at all. Personally I think we should use the FTC to require traceability on all imported tubes, thus making it much more sensible for someone to make them here. This has kept manufacture of AN hardware-nuts, bolts, fluid fittings, et al-here as the cost of US manufacture is cheaper than documenting the Chinese product! I suspect that is the real purpose of the Euro no-lead laws-making lead free consumotronics will become too much trouble for the ollies and they will start making them in the EU instead. I used to like to say the Frogs couldn't organize a ****-up in a brewery but they sure can organize a farm or truck strike!! |
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#56
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833 Amp JonWhat you are saying is akin to "black is a dark color." I think out of all the regulars, I'm probably the least knowledgeable regarding tube electronics. I know and have a deep and abiding appreciation for John and Patrick and Fabio's, et al. tube knowledge. However, I do not believe that a person be should solely judged by tube knowledge. This is a very small spectrum in Life's scheme of things. I pointed out that I'm a biomedical engineer only to demonstrate that my ignorance is not broad band. I chose this as a hobby because I love good sounding music and it presents me with a challenge that I needed at this time in my life. It's pathetic to judge someone by their knowledge of tubes. It's more pathetic to jump in where you were not involved and hurl insults at someone who has never done you any harm. I have nothing personal against John or anyone. I agree 100% of your assessment of him, which buttresses my point of you jumping in without having any knowledge of the genesis of the conversation. Now that you are better informed, show everyone that you are a real man with integrity, who made a mistake and apologize for what you said. We await your response. (sorry for the soap box, folks).
"Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... in article , west at wrote on 7/5/05 5:16 PM: Jon, I believe you are the "jerk." You been on vacation and do not know what has transpired. Are you prone to being a bull in a china closet? You certainly didn't act like an asshole when I was buying your merchandise. I guess you lost another customer for life. BTW: This is the first time that I was involved with any controversy and I hate it. All I have done is to defend myself from repeated attacks by Stewart. I hate this sort of thing, mostly because when garbage is throw out, as I have said in the past, the dogs will come around sniffing (Jon). On the other hand Jon, from what I have observed, has been involved many time with flame wars. I supposed we have witnessed a prime example of the cause. I will never answer a post by (PA or Iverson) because I truly believe for them to be insane, so what they say doesn't mean anything to me or most RATs for that matter. Jon, on the other hand shows moments of civility (not this time) so that's why I am disappointed in him to say the least. You will all notice that I didn't start this thread. Go back on vacation, I think you need it. west "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... I've been away on vacation and haven't been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon West, Who licked the red off of your candy? I hoped to spare you the embarrassment of a "mine's bigger than your's" comparison with John Stewart, which you were sure to lose. IMHO Patrick & John are consistently generous in their contributions and willingness to help. John gave you assistance in private e-mail before you pounced on him. In light of all the different questions about all of the topologies that you've posed on R.A.T. I think John's question is a fair one. After all, he is one of the folks that is investing time and goodwill to help you. He wasn't flaming you, but your response was WAY over the top. In my experience J.S. Is one of the most genteel and civil folks on R.A.T. Give him a break! As to whether or not you buy stuff from me, well, I guess I'll just have to be a big boy and suck up to the fact that there are consequences to expression. In fact, you've displayed a side of yourself that's new to me . . . . . Don't know what all of your anger is about. I hope it abates. Maybe it's time for YOU to take that vacation . . . . . Cheers and best regards, Jon |
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#57
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West,
I meant what I said. I¹m sorry if you take personal offence instead of constructive criticism. Q.E.D. Jon in article , west at wrote on 7/5/05 9:03 PM: What you are saying is akin to "black is a dark color." I think out of all the regulars, I'm probably the least knowledgeable regarding tube electronics. I know and have a deep and abiding appreciation for John and Patrick and Fabio's, et al. tube knowledge. However, I do not believe that a person be should solely judged by tube knowledge. This is a very small spectrum in Life's scheme of things. I pointed out that I'm a biomedical engineer only to demonstrate that my ignorance is not broad band. I chose this as a hobby because I love good sounding music and it presents me with a challenge that I needed at this time in my life. It's pathetic to judge someone by their knowledge of tubes. It's more pathetic to jump in where you were not involved and hurl insults at someone who has never done you any harm. I have nothing personal against John or anyone. I agree 100% of your assessment of him, which buttresses my point of you jumping in without having any knowledge of the genesis of the conversation. Now that you are better informed, show everyone that you are a real man with integrity, who made a mistake and apologize for what you said. We await your response. (sorry for the soap box, folks). "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... in article , west at wrote on 7/5/05 5:16 PM: Jon, I believe you are the "jerk." You been on vacation and do not know what has transpired. Are you prone to being a bull in a china closet? You certainly didn't act like an asshole when I was buying your merchandise. I guess you lost another customer for life. BTW: This is the first time that I was involved with any controversy and I hate it. All I have done is to defend myself from repeated attacks by Stewart. I hate this sort of thing, mostly because when garbage is throw out, as I have said in the past, the dogs will come around sniffing (Jon). On the other hand Jon, from what I have observed, has been involved many time with flame wars. I supposed we have witnessed a prime example of the cause. I will never answer a post by (PA or Iverson) because I truly believe for them to be insane, so what they say doesn't mean anything to me or most RATs for that matter. Jon, on the other hand shows moments of civility (not this time) so that's why I am disappointed in him to say the least. You will all notice that I didn't start this thread. Go back on vacation, I think you need it. west "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... I¹ve been away on vacation and haven¹t been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon West, Who licked the red off of your candy? I hoped to spare you the embarrassment of a ³mine¹s bigger than your¹s² comparison with John Stewart, which you were sure to lose. IMHO Patrick & John are consistently generous in their contributions and willingness to help. John gave you assistance in private e-mail before you pounced on him. In light of all the different questions about all of the topologies that you¹ve posed on R.A.T. I think John¹s question is a fair one. After all, he is one of the folks that is investing time and goodwill to help you. He wasn¹t flaming you, but your response was WAY over the top. In my experience J.S. Is one of the most genteel and civil folks on R.A.T. Give him a break! As to whether or not you buy stuff from me, well, I guess I¹ll just have to be a big boy and suck up to the fact that there are consequences to expression. In fact, you¹ve displayed a side of yourself that¹s new to me . . . . . Don¹t know what all of your anger is about. I hope it abates. Maybe it¹s time for YOU to take that vacation . . |
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#58
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833 Amp JonOk Jon, I suposed in your world calling someone a jerk is constructive critism. I didn't expect for you to apologize.
west "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... West, I meant what I said. I'm sorry if you take personal offence instead of constructive criticism. Q.E.D. Jon I've been away on vacation and haven't been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon in article , west at wrote on 7/5/05 9:03 PM: What you are saying is akin to "black is a dark color." I think out of all the regulars, I'm probably the least knowledgeable regarding tube electronics. I know and have a deep and abiding appreciation for John and Patrick and Fabio's, et al. tube knowledge. However, I do not believe that a person be should solely judged by tube knowledge. This is a very small spectrum in Life's scheme of things. I pointed out that I'm a biomedical engineer only to demonstrate that my ignorance is not broad band. I chose this as a hobby because I love good sounding music and it presents me with a challenge that I needed at this time in my life. It's pathetic to judge someone by their knowledge of tubes. It's more pathetic to jump in where you were not involved and hurl insults at someone who has never done you any harm. I have nothing personal against John or anyone. I agree 100% of your assessment of him, which buttresses my point of you jumping in without having any knowledge of the genesis of the conversation. Now that you are better informed, show everyone that you are a real man with integrity, who made a mistake and apologize for what you said. We await your response. (sorry for the soap box, folks). "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... in article , west at wrote on 7/5/05 5:16 PM: Jon, I believe you are the "jerk." You been on vacation and do not know what has transpired. Are you prone to being a bull in a china closet? You certainly didn't act like an asshole when I was buying your merchandise. I guess you lost another customer for life. BTW: This is the first time that I was involved with any controversy and I hate it. All I have done is to defend myself from repeated attacks by Stewart. I hate this sort of thing, mostly because when garbage is throw out, as I have said in the past, the dogs will come around sniffing (Jon). On the other hand Jon, from what I have observed, has been involved many time with flame wars. I supposed we have witnessed a prime example of the cause. I will never answer a post by (PA or Iverson) because I truly believe for them to be insane, so what they say doesn't mean anything to me or most RATs for that matter. Jon, on the other hand shows moments of civility (not this time) so that's why I am disappointed in him to say the least. You will all notice that I didn't start this thread. Go back on vacation, I think you need it. west "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ... I've been away on vacation and haven't been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon West, Who licked the red off of your candy? I hoped to spare you the embarrassment of a "mine's bigger than your's" comparison with John Stewart, which you were sure to lose. IMHO Patrick & John are consistently generous in their contributions and willingness to help. John gave you assistance in private e-mail before you pounced on him. In light of all the different questions about all of the topologies that you've posed on R.A.T. I think John's question is a fair one. After all, he is one of the folks that is investing time and goodwill to help you. He wasn't flaming you, but your response was WAY over the top. In my experience J.S. Is one of the most genteel and civil folks on R.A.T. Give him a break! As to whether or not you buy stuff from me, well, I guess I'll just have to be a big boy and suck up to the fact that there are consequences to expression. In fact, you've displayed a side of yourself that's new to me . . . . . Don't know what all of your anger is about. I hope it abates. Maybe it's time for YOU to take that vacation . . |
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west wrote: Jon,I believe you are the "jerk." What's a jerk? maybe a Jolly Energetic Reasonable Kount. Lets not savage each other with jerkisms; hell there's a bit of jerk in all of us, no need to point it out in others, ( and are you listnin' Jon?) You been on vacation and do not know what has transpired. Are you prone to being a bull in a china closet? You certainly didn't act like an asshole when I was buying your merchandise. I guess you lost another customer for life.BTW: This is the first time that I was involved with any controversy and I hate it. Taking an active part in almost any news group makes one **extremely** suceptable to being called all sorts of names and being the at the centre of controvesy, and one can't really expect a dream run of politeness forever. If I had a dollar for every time someone called me a jerk f***head, autistic, or told me to die soon, get cancer, or that I was a criminal, and an incompetent amp maker I would be fairly wealthy by now. I have developed secret raincoat and rain hat that is coated with a soon to be patented layer of special silicone material that prevents mud from sticking, and I must say its come in handy at times. Id also be wealthy if I had a dollar for each time I ask myself " am I really correct in what i am saying, or do i need to say this, or shall I get take offense, or shall I just put up with it? " All I have done is to defend myself from repeated attacks by Stewart. I hate this sort of thing, mostly because when garbage is throw out, as I have said in the past, the dogs will come around sniffing (Jon). Mr Stewart means very well, and like many folks he also has his barrow of vegetables to sell like everyone else in the market. If a particualrly large melon or pumkin rolls off his barrow to obstruct you, then dodge around it, no need to kink up a stink because vege markets do have a bit of a smell anyway..... On the other hand Jon, from what I have observed, has been involved many time with flame wars. I supposed we have witnessed a prime example of the cause. I will never answer a post by (PA or Iverson) because I truly believe for them to be insane, so what they say doesn't mean anything to me or most RATs for that matter. Sometimes the insane have something worthwhile to say, I decide who gets upset by whatever they say, not them, and I am quite serene about PA or Ian I being here. You see sometimes the discussion may bring no feel good factors to your own particular focus, but then the subject may be a vehicle in which all the group might travel to understanding, even though there maybe mud all over us. Hell, you can't have a decent car rally without a bitta mud! So no need to take things toooooooooooooooo seriously. Jon, on the other hand shows moments of civility (not this time) so that's why I am disappointed in him to say the least. You will all notice that I didn't start this thread. I am more capable of seeing the good side to our Jon, forgive him now, you'll be rewarded tomorrow, that's how I try to work. But wasn't it you who began asking about the use of 833? Never mind if it wasn't, its all water under a bridge now. Go back on vacation, I think you need it.west I reckon if we all took vacations as often as you suggest, all america would be at the beach all year. Then guys would be standin around arguing about who saw the biggest wave, or which sheila had the biggest tits. Hey, not a bad idea, but I guess we'd need a wetsuit in January. Patrick Turner. "Jon Yaeger" wrote in message ’ve been away on vacation and haven’t been able to follow the threads. West, stop being such a jerk. Jon |
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#61
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I think if "lower standard of living" means no more $39 unfixable DVD
players and $7995 Kias, ditto, I'll be happy to take that lower standard of living. If people have to learn to fix things and cook at home more nights than going out we'll be smarter and healthier. Our tube industry may be dead, but yours....did you ever even have one?? As far as the Africans growing anything-they can't feed themselves let alone anyone else. I think the whole continent should be sealed off for thirty years, allowing for nature to do what she does best. Pouring aid into Africa is only going to make the toll of death and starvation longer. I do agree US farm policy isn't the best-but I think Europe is smart to protect their family farms. Unreasonably low raw food costs have destroyed American small farmers and made most Americans fat-I think we should put an instant $5000/day fine on burger chains for hiring illegals and put a tax on fast food. About the only good aspect of ultracheap food in the US-most of it laden with high fructose corn syrup-is that the population is decreasing because so many people here are getting literally too fat to ****. |
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#62
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If you don't care about millions of kids dying in pain, it may be
best to keep quiet. Unless you really want to campaign for a cruel world. If you cared you would think, and if you thought you would be less likely to contradict yourself. As far as the Africans growing anything-they can't feed themselves let alone anyone else... ...Europe is smart to protect their family farms... What, from people who can't grow anything? President Bush has stated that the US will not move on open trade with Africa because it would hurt the economy. How? Heaps of food comes from Africa to Europe, but still many projects fail for lack of open markets. Restrictions seem to apply according to value added, so in many cases they can't sell processed goods, only the raw materials. I think the whole continent should be sealed off for thirty years, allowing for nature to do what she does best. Like what? Sealed off how? You would find the cost of your lifestyle would rocket, because Africa currently contributes much more than it consumes. Electronics (for example) would become difficult for lack of raw materials such as tantalum and rare metals. Fruit and veg would become expensive and seasonal again without the major southern-hemisphere suppliers. Energy prices would increase. Of course it is a complicated issue, perhaps too hard for anyone to understand completely, but we can at least make an effort. Mozambique is worth looking at, if you want an example of how aid can work. You might also find it uplifting to lend a hand, perhaps via http://www.live8live.com/whatsitabout/index.shtml cheers, Ian |
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#63
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west wrote:
Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west Hi west, At great risk of fire, here's a link to an 833 amp: Amp: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/se833nynoise.gif PSU: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/ps833nynoise.gif Bob D. does some interesting things with odd tubes. You should visit his site. Regards, Raymond |
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#64
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Any photos of the built amp?
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#65
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Raymond Koonce wrote:
west wrote: Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west Hi west, At great risk of fire, here's a link to an 833 amp: Amp: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/se833nynoise.gif PSU: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/ps833nynoise.gif Bob D. does some interesting things with odd tubes. You should visit his site. Regards, Raymond Interestingly, the driver tube cathode FB is +ve at DC. Makes me nervous!! Cheers, John Stewart |
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#66
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Raymond Koonce wrote:
west wrote: Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west Hi west, At great risk of fire, here's a link to an 833 amp: Amp: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/se833nynoise.gif PSU: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/ps833nynoise.gif Bob D. does some interesting things with odd tubes. You should visit his site. Regards, Raymond Interestingly, the driver tube cathode FB is +ve at DC. Makes me nervous!! Cheers, John Stewart |
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Ian Iveson wrote: If you don't care about millions of kids dying in pain, it may be best to keep quiet. Unless you really want to campaign for a cruel world. If you cared you would think, and if you thought you would be less likely to contradict yourself. As far as the Africans growing anything-they can't feed themselves let alone anyone else... ...Europe is smart to protect their family farms... What, from people who can't grow anything? President Bush has stated that the US will not move on open trade with Africa because it would hurt the economy. How? But Dubbya just said he'd get rid of farm subsidies if the euro countries got rid of theirs. But europe won't, just like pigs can't fly, and it looks like Ds statement was grandstanding, to make himself look generous.... Meanwhile Oz farm subsidies largely don't exist, and we have trouble getting produce into the US to compete with their home grown. Heaps of food comes from Africa to Europe, but still many projects fail for lack of open markets. Restrictions seem to apply according to value added, so in many cases they can't sell processed goods, only the raw materials. Everything is stacked against the Africans. The little man can only do what he can, the big man just does what he likes. I think the whole continent should be sealed off for thirty years, allowing for nature to do what she does best. Like what? Sealed off how? You would find the cost of your lifestyle would rocket, because Africa currently contributes much more than it consumes. Electronics (for example) would become difficult for lack of raw materials such as tantalum and rare metals. Fruit and veg would become expensive and seasonal again without the major southern-hemisphere suppliers. Energy prices would increase. I found it wiser to not answer the above line about sealing the place off and letting "nature take its course.." Maybe there are ppl who'd like to see all of Africa starve die of aids or perish in the intermidable petty wars and results of government by fools who are mostly corrupt; but I ain't one of them. I decided I'd be wasting my time over this non tube issue....... Patrick Turner. Of course it is a complicated issue, perhaps too hard for anyone to understand completely, but we can at least make an effort. Mozambique is worth looking at, if you want an example of how aid can work. You might also find it uplifting to lend a hand, perhaps via http://www.live8live.com/whatsitabout/index.shtml cheers, Ian |
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Raymond Koonce wrote: west wrote: Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west Hi west, At great risk of fire, here's a link to an 833 amp: Amp: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/se833nynoise.gif PSU: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/ps833nynoise.gif Bob D. does some interesting things with odd tubes. You should visit his site. He is using the 833 at a low anode voltage of only 660V, hence there is only 16 watts of output power. And there is no NFB, so Ro will be too high. Patrick Turner. Regards, Raymond |
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John Stewart wrote: Raymond Koonce wrote: west wrote: Fellow Rodents, Anyone know where to find schematics (save World Tube Audio) for an amp utilizing the 833 transmitter tube? Perhaps you have some experience with this tube that you might want to share? All comments welcomed. Cordially, west Hi west, At great risk of fire, here's a link to an 833 amp: Amp: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/se833nynoise.gif PSU: http://www.geocities.com/bobdanielak/ps833nynoise.gif Bob D. does some interesting things with odd tubes. You should visit his site. Regards, Raymond Interestingly, the driver tube cathode FB is +ve at DC. Makes me nervous!! The DC FB is positive FB. If the driver Ek moves +ve, so does the input triode Ek, thus the input tube Va moves +ve and lifts the driver Ek a bit more. And all that BS just to avoid a coupling cap between V1a and V1b. Normal CR coupling between V1a&b would be be fine. Patrick Turner. Cheers, John Stewart |
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wrote:
Any photos of the built amp? http://enjoythemusic.com/nynoise2001/secondgroup.htm has a shot a short scroll down the page. No others that I know of. |
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At that B+ the tube is hardly being utilized efficiently-what's the
quiescent plate dissipation vs. filament wattage? |
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#73
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"Raymond Koonce" wrote in message
news:w5_ze.40156$DC2.8170@okepread01... wrote: At that B+ the tube is hardly being utilized efficiently-what's the quiescent plate dissipation vs. filament wattage? Well, the SE topology is not known for its efficiency :-) The Enjoy the Music page says 100mA plate current (65W ?) and the spec sheets say 100W filament wattage. The 833 can push 150w class A when a power tube such as a 6550 triode strapped is driving it. west |
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west wrote: "Raymond Koonce" wrote in message news:w5_ze.40156$DC2.8170@okepread01... wrote: At that B+ the tube is hardly being utilized efficiently-what's the quiescent plate dissipation vs. filament wattage? Well, the SE topology is not known for its efficiency :-) The Enjoy the Music page says 100mA plate current (65W ?) and the spec sheets say 100W filament wattage. The 833 can push 150w class A when a power tube such as a 6550 triode strapped is driving it. west Perhaps it can, but to get that 150 watts of output power, plate efficiency cannot ever exceed 50% for class A, and 35% is more realistic, so the input plate power needs to be 428 watts, which requires a good fan, which is out of the question due to noise. And one has to add in the heater power, also high in itself. I know a dude who built a pair of mono amps with 8 x 300B in parallel each. Total input power including heaters is about 340 watts for the 64 output watts of class A1. Canada is a great place to own such amps because they double as room heaters for 9mths. But I waste power on my PC to talk to the world. I live in the western world and enjoy all of its wasteful benefits, so we are ***ALL*** guilty of the enormous waste of resources compared to say the folks in impoverished parts of Iraq, or Somalia or Eritrea. Patrick Turner. |
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It isn't "waste"-it improves our lives. My ultimate fantasy is to own
my very own supersonc jet fighter-yes, you can-and the feeling of pushing the throttle through the gates to AB (or 'reheat' to Brits) is worth however many gallons an hour you burn. Sympathy for the Third and Fourth World is usually misplaced. |
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wrote in message
oups.com... It isn't "waste"-it improves our lives. My ultimate fantasy is to own my very own supersonc jet fighter-yes, you can-and the feeling of pushing the throttle through the gates to AB (or 'reheat' to Brits) is worth however many gallons an hour you burn. Sympathy for the Third and Fourth World is usually misplaced. There but for the grace of G-d, go I. Any way, I think my fantasy is more realistic. That is to live in the mountains (rural) with my own generated electricity to run the cabin including tube audio and computer stuff. Solar cells are still artificially kept at a high cost-effectiveness west |
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You'd better have a lot of real estate to cover with PV cells....and
before getting sanctimonius factor in the damage from semiconductor fab plants to make those PV cells. Solar energy is still a very marginal source because the amount of energy used to make the cells is never factored in. Ditto wind power. Hydro is "cost effective" because the dam builders don't pay for the now-submerged real estate-nor would they pay if the dam failed and the newly dry, developed flooded areas had to be paid for. |
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On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 01:56:40 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote: The French are about to build a first nuclear fusion reactor, and if that works, it may give at least a lotta energy with out such a high cost or pollution, but not straightway..... Nuclear at least doesn't have the CO2 burden during operation. Mining, etc. is a significant CO2 load, and early on, was a net energy loss. Who could you believe nowdays? I don't give a **** about the future; it can all take care of itself. If I live another 20 years, I reckon I will die at about the right time in history. We may very well have been blind **** house lucky enough to have been born at exactly the best time in foreseeable history. I'll take lucky over good any time. Chris Hornbeck "I met a girl, snowball in Hell; she was as hard and as cracked as the Liberty Bell. I got her to come on and move in with me. I said I'd find a better place we could spend eternity." -E.S. |
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I don't give a **** about the future; it can all take care of itself.
If I live another 20 years, I reckon I will die at about the right time in history. We may very well have been blind **** house lucky enough to have been born at exactly the best time in foreseeable history. I'll take lucky over good any time. No, to be the age I am now in 1960 give or take a couple of years would have been to be born at the exact best time in history. Certainly for an American. In fact maybe even a little before that yet-Frank Sinatra, Arthur Miller, Joe DiMaggio all hit the linen circa 1915. America had its best days before the Vietnam debacle. Those of you in backward nations may differ, those in more sophisticated ones also-I consider Switzerland more sophisticated, all other English speaking countries somewhat behind (the UK itself lost its ass after the war, although 60s Carnaby Street Beatles London would have been interesting...). |
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