Lucy Explainin wrote:

"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...
"A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it
is not even at a level that you consider loud enough".

Not.

Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a leading
positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker in
the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest
itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small loudspeaker
with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped.


Oh dear.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker
but you are wrong."

If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component
running on an essentially AC voice coil.)

But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers
for decoration :-)



Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker
but you are wrong."

If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component
running on an essentially AC voice coil.)

But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers
for decoration :-)



Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker
but you are wrong."

If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component
running on an essentially AC voice coil.)

But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers
for decoration :-)



Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
hlink.net...
"I'm not sure why you think that a square wave will do damage to a speaker
but you are wrong."

If you say so - (the square peak of a clipped signal being a DC component
running on an essentially AC voice coil.)

But hey - you know best - they just like to add clip lights to amplifiers
for decoration :-)



Look, you don't have to take my word for it, read the other replies too.

"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server)

Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is
constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to
trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in
bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get
distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way
to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not
anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been
running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad?
Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in
bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp?

Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig)
B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts
Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in
bridged mono

Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup
seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the
subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer
crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered
and should be in this week.

I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but
only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated
550, how can I get more out of it?

thanks in advance

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben

"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server)

Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is
constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to
trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in
bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get
distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way
to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not
anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been
running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad?
Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in
bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp?

Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig)
B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts
Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in
bridged mono

Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup
seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the
subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer
crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered
and should be in this week.

I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but
only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated
550, how can I get more out of it?

thanks in advance

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben

"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server)

Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is
constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to
trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in
bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get
distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way
to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not
anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been
running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad?
Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in
bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp?

Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig)
B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts
Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in
bridged mono

Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup
seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the
subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer
crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered
and should be in this week.

I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but
only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated
550, how can I get more out of it?

thanks in advance

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben

"sk8erteck" wrote in message ...
(this might be a repost, it never showed up on my ISP's server)

Alright i know that clipping is bad and such, but my subwoofer amp is
constantly clipping and not distorting at all. It isn't even enough to
trigger the 'warning' light on the woofer. When I put the amp in
bridged mode and turn the gain down, the amp doesn't clip but i get
distortion and the warning light on the woofer turns on. The only way
to reduce this is to turn the gain way down, to levels that are not
anywhere near enough or near where it was before the bridge. I've been
running it unbridged with the clipping for about 2 weeks, is this bad?
Why is it clipping but sounding fine? Why does it not sound fine in
bridge mode? Am i damaging the woofer/amp?

Here's what i am working withnot great but it was provided with the gig)
B-52 Band-Pass Subwooofer rated 550 watts
Behringer EP1500, rated 260watts at 8ohms in stereo mode, 800 watts in
bridged mono

Highs + Mids are on another EP1500 hooked up to Peaveys, but that setup
seems to be working fine. As of now there is no crossover, I have the
subwooferamp running off of the booth output of my mixer. A behringer
crossover(i cant remember the model off the top of my head) has been ordered
and should be in this week.

I'd estimate that the woofer is pushing 250+ watts in stereo mode, but
only about 100 in bridged mono without distorting. Since it is rated
550, how can I get more out of it?

thanks in advance

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben

A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

GM
"Ulrich" wrote in message
...

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...
"A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially
if
it
is not even at a level that you consider loud enough".

Not.

Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a
leading
positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker
in
the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest
itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small
loudspeaker
with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped.

I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is
bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when
clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage.
It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking
leads
only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters.

In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible,
and
perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs.

Ulrich DoD#732
www.dj-ulrich.com
adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above.

A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

GM
"Ulrich" wrote in message
...

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...
"A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially
if
it
is not even at a level that you consider loud enough".

Not.

Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a
leading
positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker
in
the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest
itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small
loudspeaker
with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped.

I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is
bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when
clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage.
It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking
leads
only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters.

In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible,
and
perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs.

Ulrich DoD#732
www.dj-ulrich.com
adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above.

A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

GM
"Ulrich" wrote in message
...

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...
"A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially
if
it
is not even at a level that you consider loud enough".

Not.

Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a
leading
positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker
in
the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest
itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small
loudspeaker
with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped.

I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is
bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when
clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage.
It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking
leads
only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters.

In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible,
and
perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs.

Ulrich DoD#732
www.dj-ulrich.com
adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above.

A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

GM
"Ulrich" wrote in message
...

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...
"A clipping amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially
if
it
is not even at a level that you consider loud enough".

Not.

Clipping involves (as you describe) a squaring off of the wave, or a
leading
positive and negative DC edge. This WILL cause damage to a loudspeaker
in
the form of damage to the voicecoil - and it won't take long to manifest
itself. For this very reason it is SAFER to overdrive a small
loudspeaker
with a big amp and keeping the signal clean and non clipped.

I do not concur. Clipping isn't bad for voice coils. Being over driven is
bad for voice coils. Tweeters oftten fry, in passive x-over systems, when
clipping is happening. But, it's not the clipping that's doing the damage.
It's simply that the bass clips first, so that excessive gain cranking
leads
only to an increase in wattage to the tweeters.

In an active crossed system, lightly clipping the sub amps is inaudible,
and
perfectly OK; if you are not, as a result, overdriving your subs.

Ulrich DoD#732
www.dj-ulrich.com
adelphia email addy is never checked, please use URL above.

"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6
ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC
resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the
speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC
resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt
it (P=I*I*R).


If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the
input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone
*acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage
remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost.
This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the
signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean
signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power
delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher.
In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the
power delivered into the DC resistance.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current
and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases
due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-)

"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6
ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC
resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the
speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC
resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt
it (P=I*I*R).


If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the
input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone
*acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage
remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost.
This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the
signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean
signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power
delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher.
In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the
power delivered into the DC resistance.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current
and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases
due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-)

"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6
ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC
resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the
speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC
resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt
it (P=I*I*R).


If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the
input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone
*acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage
remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost.
This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the
signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean
signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power
delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher.
In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the
power delivered into the DC resistance.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current
and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases
due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-)

"G M" wrote in message ...
A voice coil is nothing but a coil of wire with almost zero ohms of
resistance. While the voice coil is moving through a magnetic field,
counter electro-motive force generated creates the impedence.

Nope. Typical resistance is about 3 ohms for a 4 ohm speaker and 6
ohms for a 8 ohm speaker. So 75% of its nominal impedance is the DC
resistance. Furthermore, the only part of the power delivered to the
speaker that turns into heat, is that dissipated in this DC
resistance. If the coil had a zero ohm resistance you could not melt
it (P=I*I*R).


If you clip the signal going into the speaker, you will end up with the
speaker not smoothly moving in and out, but a longer than usual standstill
at the most outward and inward positions. It will then lose impedence,
creating much higher current, and heat generated. If the problem is not
corrected, you will melt the fine wire in the voice coil.

Wrong. It is not the position of the cone that is proportional to the
input voltage (above the system resonance) but the cone
*acceleration*. So the cone will not "stop" because the input voltage
remains fixed. Not that it would matter, though.

That is why, as a general rule, you can over-power a lower rated speaker
with a larger clean running amp, than run a clipping amp into a higher rated
speaker.

Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost.
This will lead to a constantly high high frequency content of the
signal. This is fed to the tweeter, and the tweeter burns. In a clean
signal, the high frequency content is much lower, so the power
delivered to the tweeter is less, even if the total power is higher.
In a 1-way system, the ONLY thing that can melt the voice coil is the
power delivered into the DC resistance.

Of course, if you really try, you can burn out any speaker's voice coil.

Yes, it's an interesting experiment. While you do, record the current
and voltage so you can figure out how much the DC resistance increases
due to the increased temperature. But that is another thread. :-)

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"G M" wrote in message
.. .

Thank you :-)

Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should
never
find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage'
remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty.


I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car
will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver,
not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the
speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no
damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your
computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long
as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"G M" wrote in message
.. .

Thank you :-)

Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should
never
find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage'
remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty.


I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car
will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver,
not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the
speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no
damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your
computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long
as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"G M" wrote in message
.. .

Thank you :-)

Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should
never
find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage'
remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty.


I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car
will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver,
not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the
speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no
damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your
computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long
as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message
...

"G M" wrote in message
.. .

Thank you :-)

Soft Clipping is often used in a recording stage for effect but should
never
find its way into high-power pa. I do so love the 'it won't do any damage'
remarks. hell we add a clip light to make the amp look pretty.


I've got a fasten seatbelt light on my car but it does not mean that the car
will be damaged if I don't wear my belt! The belt is to protect the driver,
not the car! The clipping lights are to protect the amplifier, not the
speaker! I still urge you to give it a try and see that it will do no
damage. I'll bet you can download software that will let you use your
computer as a signal generator. Play a square wave and let it run as long
as you like. Your speakers will not be damaged.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message
om...
"G M" wrote in message
...
"Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost."

So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and
amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying
that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes?

Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the
woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W
of square wave, so there is still a risk here).

"and the tweeter burns."
Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped
harmic top end signal why would this be so?

Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter
can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power
handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is
based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the
amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and
the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters,
they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual
power the tweeter can take is far less.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message
om...
"G M" wrote in message
...
"Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost."

So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and
amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying
that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes?

Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the
woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W
of square wave, so there is still a risk here).

"and the tweeter burns."
Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped
harmic top end signal why would this be so?

Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter
can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power
handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is
based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the
amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and
the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters,
they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual
power the tweeter can take is far less.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message
om...
"G M" wrote in message
...
"Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost."

So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and
amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying
that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes?

Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the
woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W
of square wave, so there is still a risk here).

"and the tweeter burns."
Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped
harmic top end signal why would this be so?

Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter
can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power
handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is
based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the
amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and
the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters,
they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual
power the tweeter can take is far less.

"Lucy Explainin" wrote in message ...
"Svante" wrote in message
om...
"G M" wrote in message
...
"Nope. The problem with clipping amplifiers is mainly that the spectral
content of the signal is shifted towards higher frequencies as the
signal is clipped, and also that the dynamics of the signal is lost."

So if we put a 1v 150hz sine wave with nearly no harmonics into and
amplifier and then on to a speaker and push it to cliping you are saying
that a bass driver will not burn its coil out - yes?

Right. Unless the power amplifier delivers more RMS power than the
woofer can take. (A decently spec'ed 100 W amp can deliver up to 200 W
of square wave, so there is still a risk here).

"and the tweeter burns."
Why? If it's within it's power rating and is just getting a nasty clipped
harmic top end signal why would this be so?

Because in a typical loudspeaker system of say 100 watts the tweeter
can only take some 10 watts or less. This balance between power
handling of the parts of a loudspeaker system (woofer vs tweeter) is
based on the spectral content of normal music. By overloading the
amplifier the power balance is shifted towards higher frequencies and
the tweeter may burn. If you browse through datasheets of tweeters,
they will mostly state "maximum SYSTEM power" or similar, the actual
power the tweeter can take is far less.

Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but
it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels
and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off
before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at
such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter.

My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my
Friday show.

I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me
is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i
am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if
you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be
sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono:

1 - on (clip limiter on)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - on (bridge mode on)
7 - on (bridge mode on)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - on (clip limiter ch2)

Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt
hooked up to anything)

1 - off (clip limiter off)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - off (bridge mode off)
7 - off (bridge mode off)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - off (clip limiter ch2)

Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel
2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since
it was never used I dont understand how.

The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from
RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater
control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the
main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no
difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and
distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the
output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put
everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone
adaptor, and gets the job done.

Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill
from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years
old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing
equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the
gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the
day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance
floor from karate.



"Ben" wrote in message
m...

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben




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Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but
it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels
and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off
before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at
such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter.

My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my
Friday show.

I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me
is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i
am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if
you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be
sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono:

1 - on (clip limiter on)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - on (bridge mode on)
7 - on (bridge mode on)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - on (clip limiter ch2)

Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt
hooked up to anything)

1 - off (clip limiter off)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - off (bridge mode off)
7 - off (bridge mode off)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - off (clip limiter ch2)

Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel
2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since
it was never used I dont understand how.

The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from
RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater
control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the
main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no
difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and
distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the
output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put
everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone
adaptor, and gets the job done.

Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill
from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years
old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing
equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the
gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the
day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance
floor from karate.



"Ben" wrote in message
m...

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but
it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels
and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off
before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at
such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter.

My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my
Friday show.

I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me
is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i
am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if
you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be
sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono:

1 - on (clip limiter on)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - on (bridge mode on)
7 - on (bridge mode on)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - on (clip limiter ch2)

Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt
hooked up to anything)

1 - off (clip limiter off)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - off (bridge mode off)
7 - off (bridge mode off)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - off (clip limiter ch2)

Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel
2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since
it was never used I dont understand how.

The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from
RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater
control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the
main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no
difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and
distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the
output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put
everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone
adaptor, and gets the job done.

Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill
from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years
old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing
equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the
gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the
day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance
floor from karate.



"Ben" wrote in message
m...

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Sorry about the late response, but yes I am currently driving only one sub.
There are plans to install a second, and some wiring has been installed, but
it is not hooked up. When I go in Friday I'll definatly test the clip levels
and let you know how it goes. As for the limiter, it cuts the bass off
before it distorts, and in bridged mono I turned it on but it distorted at
such a low volume anyway that it didn't matter.

My crossover didn't come in today, hopefully it will arrrive before my
Friday show.

I am aware of the settings for bridged mode, the only thing that concerns me
is that you stated that a pin needs to be moved in the speakon connectors( i
am using speakon connectors btw). I'm not sure what you are reffering to, if
you mean the DIP switches, i think those were moved correctly. Just to be
sure, here are the switch settings i used for bridged mono:

1 - on (clip limiter on)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - on (bridge mode on)
7 - on (bridge mode on)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - on (clip limiter ch2)

Here's the settings i use for regular mode(ch2 does not matter, it isnt
hooked up to anything)

1 - off (clip limiter off)
2 - on (30hz low cut filter)
3 - off (low cut filter on)
4 - off (stereo)
5 - off (stereo)
6 - off (bridge mode off)
7 - off (bridge mode off)
8 - off (low cut filter on ch2)
9 - on (30hz low cut filter ch2)
10 - off (clip limiter ch2)

Switching from stereo to parallel makes no difference, it just turns channel
2 input into a relay. I'm leaning towards channel 2 being blown, but since
it was never used I dont understand how.

The booth output of the board is being merged with a $5 adaptor from
RadioShack, then fed into the subwoofer amp. This lets me have greater
control of the subwoofer. I tried hooking up the subwoofer directly to the
main output of the board, with and without the adaptor. There was no
difference, it still had the same clipping issues in regular mode and
distortion issues in bridged mode. The only thing i found was that the
output was slightly louder with the adaptor, so I left it in when I put
everything back together. The adaptor is a 1/4in stereo to mono headphone
adaptor, and gets the job done.

Also, power is not a concern, the building might be an old, rebuilt mill
from the 1880's, but the club/ballroom has its own(less than three years
old) transformer and utility room, with voltage monitoring and stabilizing
equipment in the utility room. The only problem i've had so far is with the
gym downstairs(same owner, different electrical) using the room during the
day. I've had one speaker hit with a basketball and a gash in the dance
floor from karate.



"Ben" wrote in message
m...

Just to check, you have just ONE sub, right?

First of all as everyone else said you need an active crossover ASAP.

Ok you have two problems.. the first is the question of whether it is
ok to run it on just one channel of the amp with the amp clip light
blinking. Answer is "it depends". If it is just blinking briefly on
peaks and sounds ok then you are probably safe. If you have a really
good amp then you can push it pretty hard, the clip lights are just a
warning and you have a little bit more room.. like my QSC amp, which
is conservatively rated.. I can run it with clip lights blinking for
hours and there's no audible distortion or overheating problem... on
the other hand there is the Behringer which a cheaper amp made to LOOK
a lot like a QSC... I would not push it too hard because especially
running subs, by the time you hear it sounding bad it will be too
late. I would save this setting for the peak of the evening and not
run it that way all night. In any case you should have the limiter
feature of the amp turned on, it will help protect you from blowing
anything. The other thing you should do is, when no-one is around,
run just the sub alone (no full-ranges) on a track with clean bass,
and then bring the level up slowly, until you can hear it start to
strain, if you bring it up and down slowly you will hear where the amp
starts having a problem.. back off from there until it definitely
sounds good again. Now look at what the peak lights are doing. Don't
let them blink more than that ever. Use the lights as your guide as
to how high you can go not just the knob positions since there are so
many ways to change the level on the mixer...

Also make sure that when you are running with just one channel of the
amp that the other channel input is turned all the way down.

Ok, now your bridge mode problems. What I hear you saying is that
when you are running the amp in bridge mode, you are not getting a
clip light on the amp but getting distortion and a warning on the sub.
So far this sounds right, since with the amp in bridge mode it has
more than enough power to blow the sub if you set the level too high.

But then, if you back the levels down to a point -before- you get
distortion or a warning light on the sub, you don't get as much
undistorted bass as you did running unbridged??? That tells me you
have one of two problems:

1) One channel of the amp is partly or totally blown. It works right
in stereo mode because you happen to be using the good channel.

Or more likely:

2) You don't have the amp hooked up right for bridge mode and you are
lucky you haven't blown anything. I looked at the manual for this amp
(it is on the Behringer web site) and it shows on the back first of
all the speaker connections.. If you have bare wires coming from your
sub then it's easy enough, the two sub wires are connected to the two
middle speaker binding posts (red posts) nothing is connected to the
black posts. That is the connection for bridge mode ONLY. If you are
using a speakon connector to plug the sub into the amp then one wire
in the speakon connector needs to be moved to a different pin (look at
the back of the amp, it tells you), THEN plug the connector into
output #1. If you have't done that it's not going to work correctly.
Also according to the manual, use only input #1, turn down the level
on input #2 and turn off the filter and limited switches for input #2.
The limiter switch should be on for input #1. This also means that
you can only take one channel from your booth output, either left or
right, not both. It doesn't matter so much for now since bass is
usually about the same in both channels.

Once you have this all checked and it's 100% right, then start with
your booth output at no more than 50% and amp input #1 levels at 0,
bring it up slow. If you cannot get as much bass (without distortion
or warning light on the sub) as you did before you bridged it.. then
the amp is screwed up somehow.

Let us know what happens. Good luck.

-Ben




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Sorry for the late response,

Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday
at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a
subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an
LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The
mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the
amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have
run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems.


"megabite" wrote in message
...
Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do
the
assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline,
just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above
the
desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz.
depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play
the
mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking
about.
In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing
the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually
black or white.)
"sk8erteck" wrote in message
...
I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what
you
said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in
higher
powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make
sense
to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning
light
on
the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than
when it is clipping.

I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the
gig.
There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get
more
power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify
the
highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys,
a
guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other
one
was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a
basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone.
Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine.


"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...

Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is
clipping?
Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage
is
driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current
amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and
watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see
a
sine
wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping
the
tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot
supply
enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off.

If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you
should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud
enough
then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A
clipping
amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is
not
even
at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that
you
are
likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage
the
voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and
out
too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted
voice
coil so I know that it can happen.

I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover.
This
is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical
instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the
woofer
then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are
rugged
and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as
a
tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good
idea.






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Sorry for the late response,

Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday
at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a
subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an
LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The
mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the
amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have
run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems.


"megabite" wrote in message
...
Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do
the
assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline,
just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above
the
desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz.
depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play
the
mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking
about.
In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing
the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually
black or white.)
"sk8erteck" wrote in message
...
I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what
you
said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in
higher
powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make
sense
to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning
light
on
the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than
when it is clipping.

I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the
gig.
There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get
more
power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify
the
highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys,
a
guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other
one
was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a
basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone.
Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine.


"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...

Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is
clipping?
Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage
is
driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current
amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and
watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see
a
sine
wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping
the
tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot
supply
enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off.

If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you
should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud
enough
then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A
clipping
amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is
not
even
at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that
you
are
likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage
the
voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and
out
too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted
voice
coil so I know that it can happen.

I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover.
This
is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical
instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the
woofer
then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are
rugged
and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as
a
tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good
idea.






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----






-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Sorry for the late response,

Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday
at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a
subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an
LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The
mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the
amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have
run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems.


"megabite" wrote in message
...
Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do
the
assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline,
just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above
the
desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz.
depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play
the
mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking
about.
In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing
the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually
black or white.)
"sk8erteck" wrote in message
...
I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what
you
said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in
higher
powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make
sense
to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning
light
on
the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than
when it is clipping.

I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the
gig.
There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get
more
power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify
the
highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys,
a
guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other
one
was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a
basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone.
Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine.


"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...

Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is
clipping?
Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage
is
driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current
amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and
watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see
a
sine
wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping
the
tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot
supply
enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off.

If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you
should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud
enough
then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A
clipping
amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is
not
even
at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that
you
are
likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage
the
voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and
out
too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted
voice
coil so I know that it can happen.

I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover.
This
is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical
instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the
woofer
then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are
rugged
and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as
a
tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good
idea.






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Sorry for the late response,

Crossover should have come in today, but it didn't...should be in by Friday
at the latest which is my next show. The sub doesnt have an LFE, its just a
subwoofer in a box with a passive crossover. I've never seen(or heard of) an
LFE on a sub, only on pre-amp equipment and on home stereo equipment. The
mixer does not have an LFE out, only main, booth, and tape. Right now the
amp is being fed off the booth output, with the Peaveys on main, but i have
run the subwoofer off the mains only to have the same problems.


"megabite" wrote in message
...
Behringer are not especially rugged, high end, electronics. They will do
the
assigned job. I suspect you'll need an external "Active" crossover inline,
just before the amp. That way, you will be able to "Cut" anything above
the
desired selected hertz you want to amplify and play perhaps 30 hz.- 300hz.
depending on your woofers rating. I think your Woofer is trying to play
the
mid and upper freq's and causing the clip and distortion your talking
about.
In spite of any crossover that's "Passive" and internal. Are you inputing
the signal at the subs LFE? (Low Freq. Extension, RCA connector, usually
black or white.)
"sk8erteck" wrote in message
...
I know its clipping based on the clipping light. I'm familar with what
you
said, but it sounds better when its clipping versus not clipping in
higher
powered mode(bridged mono) at the same sound levels. That doesn't make
sense
to me, espesically when i came close to blowing the speaker(warning
light
on
the speaker came full on) in bridged mode. The output was no louder than
when it is clipping.

I know a crossover is needed, I had one ordered as soon as I got the
gig.
There is one built into the woofer, but im thinking that i might get
more
power out of the amp with a crossover, since it doesnt have to amplify
the
highs + mids. That and it will give me more protection for the Peaveys,
a
guest DJ already blew one. (voice coil burnt) We thought that the other
one
was blown, but when we went up to look at it, it must have been hit by a
basketball or something because the front grill was bent into the cone.
Pulled the grill off and it sounded fine.


"citronzx" wrote in message
link.net...

Could you explain how you have determined that the amplifier is
clipping?
Clipping is a form of distortion. It happens when an amplifier stage
is
driven up to and beyond the supply voltage (or current if a current
amplifier). Imagine that you are feeding an amplifier sine wave and
watching the output on an oscilloscope. Well, if all is well you see
a
sine
wave of larger amplitude on the scope. If the amplifier is clipping
the
tops of the waves will be flattened off because the amplifier cannot
supply
enough power to form the tops of the peaks; it clips them off.

If a light on the amplifier is telling you that it is clipping the you
should turn it down until the light goes off. If this isn't loud
enough
then you should consider getting a more powerful amplifier. A
clipping
amplifier probably will not damage the speaker, especially if it is
not
even
at a level that you consider loud enough. Really, the only was that
you
are
likely to damage a subwoofer is to drive it too loud and either damage
the
voice coil by over heating it or by causing the woofer to move in and
out
too far, again with too much power. I have actually seen a melted
voice
coil so I know that it can happen.

I am a bit concerned that you say that you are not using a crossover.
This
is not an optional device. I'm not really very familiar with musical
instrument equipment but if there is not a crossover built into the
woofer
then I would suggest not using it until you have one. Woofers are
rugged
and not as susceptible to being damaged by too high of a frequency as
a
tweeter is to being driven by too low of one but it sill is not a good
idea.






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sk8rteck-

Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That
is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about
with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR
contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are
only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing.
Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there
in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro
full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in
the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there
is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own
amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two
cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor
cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries
amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like
that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two
independent amp channels bundled through one cable.

Makes sense?

Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired.
BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2
connector, just channel #2 is available.

So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a
(+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-)
outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of
channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH
channels of the amp.

So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker
is
wired like this:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to
rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to
the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two
red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use
decent wire for that...

The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the
filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn
the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably
should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down
there anyway).

So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know
how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about
this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings..
ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer
web site. You should read that manual.

Good luck.

-Ben

sk8rteck-

Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That
is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about
with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR
contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are
only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing.
Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there
in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro
full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in
the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there
is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own
amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two
cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor
cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries
amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like
that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two
independent amp channels bundled through one cable.

Makes sense?

Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired.
BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2
connector, just channel #2 is available.

So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a
(+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-)
outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of
channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH
channels of the amp.

So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker
is
wired like this:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to
rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to
the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two
red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use
decent wire for that...

The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the
filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn
the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably
should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down
there anyway).

So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know
how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about
this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings..
ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer
web site. You should read that manual.

Good luck.

-Ben

sk8rteck-

Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That
is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about
with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR
contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are
only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing.
Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there
in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro
full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in
the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there
is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own
amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two
cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor
cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries
amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like
that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two
independent amp channels bundled through one cable.

Makes sense?

Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired.
BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2
connector, just channel #2 is available.

So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a
(+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-)
outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of
channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH
channels of the amp.

So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker
is
wired like this:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to
rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to
the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two
red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use
decent wire for that...

The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the
filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn
the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably
should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down
there anyway).

So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know
how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about
this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings..
ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer
web site. You should read that manual.

Good luck.

-Ben

sk8rteck-

Ok you do not have the speaker connected to the amp correctly. That
is why bridging mode isn't working. Here is what I am talking about
with the speakon connector: Each speakon connector has room for FOUR
contacts in it. Now, in a normal single channel amp output, there are
only two contacts used, and the other two contacts do nothing.
Sometimes the metal pins for the other two contacts are not even there
in the connector. But sometimes they are used. For example, many pro
full-range cabinets are set up for bi-amping.. that is, the woofer in
the cabinet is driven from a different amp channel than mid (if there
is one) and tweeter). Then of course your sub cabinets get their own
amp which makes a tri-amped system. But it is a pain to run two
cables to every cabinet. So what they do is use a four conductor
cable with all 4 contacts used on the connector. Wire pair #1 carries
amp channel #1, wire pair #2 carries channel #2. So in a setup like
that, each cabinet would get it's own amp, but not bridged, just two
independent amp channels bundled through one cable.

Makes sense?

Ok so that is how the Behringer Channel #1 speaker jack is wired.
BOTH channels are available on that one connector. On the channel #2
connector, just channel #2 is available.

So how does this matter for bridging? Well, each channel output has a
(+) wire and a (-) wire. When you are bridging, you don't use the (-)
outputs at all, and the speaker is connected between the (+) of
channel #1 and the (+) of channel #2.. that is how it uses BOTH
channels of the amp.

So that is the deal. Your amp speaker jack #1, connector, and speaker
is
wired like this:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

That is why you need different connector wiring. If you don't want to
rewire the cable, you can get a speakon jack and solder two wires to
the right pins on that, put some tape on it.. then connect to the two
red binding posts on the amp. That will do the same thing. Use
decent wire for that...

The other thing you have set up wrong is that you should have both the
filter and the limiter on channel 2 turned OFF for bridge mode. Turn
the limiter on for channel 1 only. And the 30hz filter, probably
should be on for channel 1 also (I doubt you will get much bass down
there anyway).

So that's the deal. Hope it makes sense. BTW although I already know
how bridging works on other amps, ALL the info I just gave you about
this amp, the connector arrangements on it and the switch settings..
ALL that came from the PDF manual I got from looking on the Behringer
web site. You should read that manual.

Good luck.

-Ben

(Ben) wrote in message om...

Sorry, it was late, I typed it wrong, and messed up the +-'s. I wrote:

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)


Which is wrong.
The correct wiring is:


(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

-Ben

(Ben) wrote in message om...

Sorry, it was late, I typed it wrong, and messed up the +-'s. I wrote:

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)


Which is wrong.
The correct wiring is:


(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

-Ben

(Ben) wrote in message om...

Sorry, it was late, I typed it wrong, and messed up the +-'s. I wrote:

And what you need for bridging is:

(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2+ (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1- ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)


Which is wrong.
The correct wiring is:


(AMP CHANNEL 1+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEKAER +)
(AMP CHANNEL 1-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)
(AMP CHANNEL 2+) --- PAIR 1+ ---- (SPEAKER -)
(AMP CHANNEL 2-) --- PAIR 2- (not used)

-Ben