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Doc
 
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Default Does conversion to WMV exaggerate reverb?

I made a WMV file to e-mail a short excerpt of a project to a friend. The
first thing he said was "there's too much reverb". I do notice that when
playing the WMV file sitting in front of the computer that I use for e-mail,
which has attached computer speakers of typical moderate to low quality on
either side of the monitor, the reverb is much more pronounced than playing
the actual original file through my editing computer going though the large
hi-fi speakers I use as monitors, or through headphones.

The sound card on the editing computer is a Soundblaster Audigy2, the
soundcard on the e-mail computer is a Soundblaster Live! No reverb effects
are turned on on either of these cards.

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin on
Soundforge.


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The DV Show
 
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depends on what your audio setting were when compressing.


--
Brian Alves

Listen to the new podcast
for DV creators- The DV Show!
http://www.thedvshow.com



Doc wrote in message
ink.net...
I made a WMV file to e-mail a short excerpt of a project to a friend. The
first thing he said was "there's too much reverb". I do notice that when
playing the WMV file sitting in front of the computer that I use for

e-mail,
which has attached computer speakers of typical moderate to low quality on
either side of the monitor, the reverb is much more pronounced than

playing
the actual original file through my editing computer going though the

large
hi-fi speakers I use as monitors, or through headphones.

The sound card on the editing computer is a Soundblaster Audigy2, the
soundcard on the e-mail computer is a Soundblaster Live! No reverb effects
are turned on on either of these cards.

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it

makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin on
Soundforge.




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Gary Bettan
 
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Brian Alves

Listen to the new podcast
for DV creators- The DV Show!
http://www.thedvshow.com


Hey Brian,
Just wanted to compliment you guys on a great website and concept.
These podcasts are very cool!!

We made the DV Show one of our featured Blog entry today on the
Videoguys Blog. http://www.videoguys.com/blog/

You guys definitely should check it out! http://www.thedvshow.com

Gary

The Electronic Mailbox http://www.videoguys.com
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David Morgan \(MAMS\)
 
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"Doc" wrote in message...

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin on
Soundforge.


Can you send me a sample? Not that I can solve your problem as I'm
not into the video side of things, but I'm curious about the audio.

Remove NOSPA or post a link...

DM




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Martin Heffels
 
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On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:10:42 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

I made a WMV file to e-mail a short excerpt of a project to a friend. The
first thing he said was "there's too much reverb".


It does not necessarily have to be your problem

If you want to check a soundmix, you actually need to do this on a
variety of speakers; your high-end for the mix, and check, then a
couple of low-ends + a regular tv to check for stuff which might occur
on them, which your mixing-speakers don't show, because of their
quality. Finally you should also check in mono, because some stations
are still converted to mono somewhere in the path.
Now, what also could be the case is that he has reverb switched on in
the playback software of the soundcard mixer. This will add additional
reverb. Let him check for that. And of course it could be that the
amount of reverb, is simply too much for his liking.

cheers

-martin-

--
"Now I want you to say it thrice daily and don't dress a bun"


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V Green
 
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"Martin Heffels" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:10:42 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

I made a WMV file to e-mail a short excerpt of a project to a friend. The
first thing he said was "there's too much reverb".


That's probably normal for the hugely compressed
format you had to use to make the clip e-mailable.

If you use an *extremely* low bitrate for audio, it'll
start to sound weird like this. MP3 does it too.

Also, he might want to see if the following items
are turned ON in his player and/or audio mixer
and turn them OFF:

SRS (in Player)
"3D effect" or anything like that (in Audio Mixer)



It does not necessarily have to be your problem

If you want to check a soundmix, you actually need to do this on a
variety of speakers; your high-end for the mix, and check, then a
couple of low-ends + a regular tv to check for stuff which might occur
on them, which your mixing-speakers don't show, because of their
quality. Finally you should also check in mono, because some stations
are still converted to mono somewhere in the path.
Now, what also could be the case is that he has reverb switched on in
the playback software of the soundcard mixer. This will add additional
reverb. Let him check for that. And of course it could be that the
amount of reverb, is simply too much for his liking.

cheers

-martin-

--
"Now I want you to say it thrice daily and don't dress a bun"



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Ricky Hunt
 
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"V Green" wrote in message
...

"Martin Heffels" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 00:10:42 GMT, "Doc"
wrote:

I made a WMV file to e-mail a short excerpt of a project to a friend.
The
first thing he said was "there's too much reverb".



Perceptual coding by nature of what it keeps and throws away can change the
balance of elements in a recording. Oddly enough I've found I actually like
the lower bit rate (128) MP3s in my car versus even the original CD since
the encoding raises the important elements over the road noise, etc.


  #8   Report Post  
Doc
 
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
newsZMse.8851$1q5.8652@trnddc02...

"Doc" wrote in message...

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it

makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin on
Soundforge.


Can you send me a sample? Not that I can solve your problem as I'm
not into the video side of things, but I'm curious about the audio.


Well, it's kind of a pain to do. I had it up on a quickie website for my
friend to download it but have since deleted it. I'm on dialup and takes a
long time to upload a file that large. If you want to hear it, I would guess
it would be easy enough to reproduce. Here's what I did - took a 30 second
video file and add reverb with acoustic mirror in soundforge, at
about -15dbs on the wet side and 0 db on the dry side. You'll have to adjust
of course, depending on the level of your file to avoid clipping. Then
convert to WMV at a fairly high quality rate. You should hear it.


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David Morgan \(MAMS\)
 
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"Doc" wrote in message ink.net...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
newsZMse.8851$1q5.8652@trnddc02...

"Doc" wrote in message...

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it

makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin on
Soundforge.


Can you send me a sample? Not that I can solve your problem as I'm
not into the video side of things, but I'm curious about the audio.


Well, it's kind of a pain to do. I had it up on a quickie website for my
friend to download it but have since deleted it. I'm on dialup and takes a
long time to upload a file that large. If you want to hear it, I would guess
it would be easy enough to reproduce. Here's what I did - took a 30 second
video file and add reverb with acoustic mirror in soundforge, at
about -15dbs on the wet side and 0 db on the dry side. You'll have to adjust
of course, depending on the level of your file to avoid clipping. Then
convert to WMV at a fairly high quality rate. You should hear it.



Offhand, that sounds like heavy verb to me. I find that on the same software
when I get the reverb levels above the -30's, it becomes very present, very
quickly.

I was curious about the webalized soundfile (as I think some others were)
in the event that it was an anomaly that occured in the conversion.

DM


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daz[at]roughdiamondmarketing[dot]com
 
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okay, so I haven't heard it either, but could it simply be that the wmv
conversion is applying compression that makes the reverb more dense ?




  #11   Report Post  
Lynn
 
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I noticed many years ago that compression to MP3 tended to exagerate the
"ambience" of a track, Perhaps WMA does the same thing.
--
Lynn
Wobbly Music
"Supporting the Mature Artist"
=============================
http://www.wobblymusic.net
Latest Release... "Friends" by John McKeon
Order your copy now and get 2 FREE bonus tracks!
http://www.johnmckeon.wobblymusic.net

"Doc" wrote in message
ink.net...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
newsZMse.8851$1q5.8652@trnddc02...

"Doc" wrote in message...

Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb? If it

makes
any difference, the reverb was added using the Acoustic Mirror plugin
on
Soundforge.


Can you send me a sample? Not that I can solve your problem as I'm
not into the video side of things, but I'm curious about the audio.


Well, it's kind of a pain to do. I had it up on a quickie website for my
friend to download it but have since deleted it. I'm on dialup and takes a
long time to upload a file that large. If you want to hear it, I would
guess
it would be easy enough to reproduce. Here's what I did - took a 30
second
video file and add reverb with acoustic mirror in soundforge, at
about -15dbs on the wet side and 0 db on the dry side. You'll have to
adjust
of course, depending on the level of your file to avoid clipping. Then
convert to WMV at a fairly high quality rate. You should hear it.




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Doc
 
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:WRste.12467$kj5.662@trnddc03...

Offhand, that sounds like heavy verb to me. I find that on the same

software
when I get the reverb levels above the -30's, it becomes very present,

very
quickly.

I was curious about the webalized soundfile (as I think some others were)
in the event that it was an anomaly that occured in the conversion.


The particular file I used was Foelinger Great Hall.

Doesn't sound too overbearing on the original (ergo, that's why I used it
that way), perhaps mitigated by the fact that it's not a true stereo but
redundant tracks. But regardless, the focus is on how the original and wmv
files sound in comparison. The wmv file is clearly much more cavernous
souding.


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David Morgan \(MAMS\)
 
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"Doc" wrote in message ink.net...

"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:WRste.12467$kj5.662@trnddc03...

Offhand, that sounds like heavy verb to me. I find that on the same
software when I get the reverb levels above the -30's, it becomes
very present, very quickly.

I was curious about the webalized soundfile (as I think some others were)
in the event that it was an anomaly that occured in the conversion.


The particular file I used was Foelinger Great Hall.

Doesn't sound too overbearing on the original (ergo, that's why I used it
that way), perhaps mitigated by the fact that it's not a true stereo but
redundant tracks. But regardless, the focus is on how the original and wmv
files sound in comparison. The wmv file is clearly much more cavernous
souding.


It's not as if I don't put the verb output into the ' - teens' every now
and then, but not as standard fare. I'd still like to hear the two files
(before and after WMV) if you have the opportunity. Someone esle
mentioned that the recipient may have had some SFX turned on
in WMP, did you ever ask the plaintiff about that?

DM


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Doc
 
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"David Morgan (MAMS)" wrote in message
news:ms%te.8$fw1.2@trnddc02...

It's not as if I don't put the verb output into the ' - teens' every now
and then, but not as standard fare. I'd still like to hear the two files
(before and after WMV) if you have the opportunity. Someone esle
mentioned that the recipient may have had some SFX turned on
in WMP, did you ever ask the plaintiff about that?


He's pretty knowledgeable about sound/recording type issues, I'm very sure
he'd be on top of something like that. He'd surely notice it on other things
he plays.

Here's a link to an mp3 with samples taken from the original sound before
conversion to wmv that I did to allow my friend to compare to the wmv file.
It's at 320kbps so it's pretty much the same as the original. Whether you
feel it's good or bad, the reverb on the wmv file is much more pronounced.

http://home.mpinet.net/~docsavage20/reverb/reverb.html


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Les Cargill
 
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daz[at]roughdiamondmarketing[dot]com wrote:
okay, so I haven't heard it either, but could it simply be that the wmv
conversion is applying compression that makes the reverb more dense ?



It's most likely adding phase distortion that accentuates the
'verb.

--
Les Cargill


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Richard Crowley
 
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"Doc" wrote ...
Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb?


Any lossy compression scheme is prone to make undesired changes
to your audio. Your issue dosn't surprise me in the least. If you
really
care about audio quality, distributing it in WMV is not advisable.

If you must distribute WMV, then tune the amount of reverb (and
whatever other processing you are doing) so that it sounds right
*AFTER compression to the distribution format*.

You are also correct that the playback condititons (little toy plastic
computer speakers vs. real stereo speakers) will also affect how
the reverb (and other effects) are percieved by the listener. Of
course you likely don't have control over that.

  #17   Report Post  
Charles Tomaras
 
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"Richard Crowley" wrote in message
...
"Doc" wrote ...
Is conversion to a WMV file known to somehow exaggerate reverb?


Any lossy compression scheme is prone to make undesired changes
to your audio. Your issue dosn't surprise me in the least. If you really
care about audio quality, distributing it in WMV is not advisable.

If you must distribute WMV, then tune the amount of reverb (and
whatever other processing you are doing) so that it sounds right
*AFTER compression to the distribution format*.


I think it's always been a given in our business that one must "master" for
the desired distribution format. In the heyday of vinyl and cassette, a
single master for both mediums did not cut the mustard and it's no surprise
that it does not cut it with today's multitude of lossy formats either.


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