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#1
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that).
Thank you for any advice, Andy |
#2
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"apa" skrev i en meddelelse
... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. Thank you for any advice You're most welcome, what a nice question. Andy Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#3
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Hello Peter,
Thank you very much for the response. A question regarding EV inline below if you have the time. On Monday, October 27, 2014 1:20:10 PM UTC-4, Peter Larsen wrote: "apa" skrev i en meddelelse ... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. So it looks Meyer Sound UPQ 1P is around $1600 / pair? That puts me pretty firmly in the not rich camp. I have a pair of passive Peaveys, so maybe I'll just stick with them. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair. Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than? Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. Right, fair enough. No pun intended I assume? (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. I would now have guessed this. Thanks. Thank you for any advice You're most welcome, what a nice question. Andy Kind regards Peter Larsen Much appreciated, Andy |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
apa wrote:
I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). Thank you for any advice, Andy QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's. I don't think a SRM350 would suit you well, though I haven't used or heard the new 1000 watt model. Mackie obviously felt the pressure there, with the small amount of power in the previous versions. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Peter Larsen wrote:
"apa" skrev i en meddelelse ... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's. The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what would be needed. I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3, and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice. Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want quantity.) I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. Amen. (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial applications. I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less costly line. http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/ http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/ Thank you for any advice You're most welcome, what a nice question. Andy Kind regards Peter Larsen -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
apa wrote:
The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair. Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than? See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money. http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/ Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio. We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them.
Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12? Best, Andy On Monday, October 27, 2014 2:35:41 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote: apa wrote: The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair. Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than? See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money. http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/ Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio. We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"hank alrich" skrev i en meddelelse
... apa wrote: The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair. Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than? See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money. http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/ Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio. We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity. 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range, but I like the text about them and the processing allows pushing them more than one would dare do without it. And yes, they might fit what the OP asks about, a monolithic "do all" setup, QSC is not the most visible brand over here so I didn't think of checking what they actually offer. On the day job we have some Electro Voice Zx1's - small plastic boxes with 8" and horn, 4 of those do a decent out doors horse show, I'd prefer to have the matching 12" subs, but the budget had to contain "enough" wireless mics and that sub was not yet available when we shopped. Active and passive versions are available, I know the passive ones are weather resistant, dunno about the active ones, don't want no active speakers on a lawn anyway. I'm thinking four of those with subs would be a very adaptable rig for the suggested show size, small coffee house no subs, large coffee househouse with subs. Deplooying what you need and only that is a nice concept, and with 6 tops and 4 subs there'd also be boxes for a basic stage monitor setup. If you can get weather resistant within "the same budget" as not weather resistant, then go for it, it increases the usability of the rig and thus makes it better at making money. At the end of the show just that is the most important spec. shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#9
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"apa" skrev i en meddelelse
... Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them. Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12? At a guess: vox humana, also why I ended up thinking 8" plus sub(s). Best, Andy Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range, Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy to lug around. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
apa wrote:
Thank you Hank. These look great and with your endorsement I'd trust them. Any reason you went with the K10 over the K12? Best, Andy K10's cost less, and I was budgeting a fine line. It worked out. On Monday, October 27, 2014 2:35:41 PM UTC-4, hank alrich wrote: apa wrote: The Electro-Voice ETX-12P looks like about $2400 / pair. Would you put it in the middle range with the Mackies or better than? See if you can try a piar of these before you spend any money. http://qsc.com/products/Loudspeakers/K_Series/K10/ Elsewhere in this thread I tell of installing these in a dance studio. We're talking full range and reasonably loud, much louder than I'd want to hear in a coffee house or gallery, assuming sanity. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"hank alrich" wrote in message
... Peter Larsen wrote: "apa" skrev i en meddelelse ... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's. The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what would be needed. I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3, and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice. Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want quantity.) I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. Amen. (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial applications. I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less costly line. http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/ http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/ FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected. I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html Sean |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Sean Conolly wrote:
I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk. I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the 21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
apa wrote:
I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). Thank you for any advice, Andy http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/K12 or http://www.swee****er.com/store/detail/SRM450v3 Two price points; I liked the K12 much better. I bet you can find both at Guitar Center; I'd go demo them. -- Les Cargill |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Sean Conolly wrote:
"hank alrich" wrote in message ... Peter Larsen wrote: "apa" skrev i en meddelelse ... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's. The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what would be needed. I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3, and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice. Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want quantity.) I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. Amen. (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial applications. I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less costly line. http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/ http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/ FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected. Did you have a sub with 'em? They are class D so, yeah. There's gonna be a hard limiter. They have "peak" max SPL of 131; take 10 off that for using the word "peak" and it's not exactly knocking the walls out. But 120dB @ 1 M should be enough for most club situations of 5000 to say 8000 sq. feet or so. I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html Sean -- Les Cargill |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
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#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Sean Conolly wrote: I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...2a_mk3_12_art_ 3_series.html The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk. I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the 21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets. --scott For two years at the Armadillo Christmas Bazaar for front row audience fill we have used a pair of small speakers built by a young guy in Austin, Tyler Fannon, ostensibly wedges built as tightly as possible around a ten inch Radian driver. These are very small boxes. He used the cutout that provides a handle for the port, too. You literally could not build smaller box around that driver. They sound terrific, and they work so well that we have been able to turn the mains down just a touch. They are silly powerful. He built them at the request of an acoustic touring artist who said she wanted the tiniest good-sounding stage monitors he could come up with, because they didn't have much room in the road rig, but they were sick and tired of using what they were finding at venues. Impressive drivers. Bad ass and good sounding. Not inexpensive. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Sean Conolly wrote:
FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected. If that happens in a coffee house or gallery, something is terrible wrong at the master fader. ;-) I like the K's w/smaller woofers better than the one w/ the 12. If I need loud I won't be looking at any of this stuff. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
(hank alrich) wrote:
Les Cargill wrote: (hank alrich) wrote: apa wrote: I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). Thank you for any advice, Andy QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's. I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom. Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers. I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed. Good to know. I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em." -- Les Cargill |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
(Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Sean Conolly wrote: I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk. Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em. I would have recommended the Radians except that they haven't joined the 21st century and still only have unpowered cabinets. --scott -- Les Cargill |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 28/10/2014 9:06 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote: 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range, Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy to lug around. HK Lucas (various sizes) . Sound good and easy to lug (wheel) around. Sub and satellites, all powered. geoff |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On Tuesday, October 28, 2014 2:34:33 AM UTC-4, geoff wrote:
On 28/10/2014 9:06 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote: On 10/27/2014 3:41 PM, Peter Larsen wrote: 60 Hz ... wee bit short of full range, Most people don't really know what they're asking for, hence "full range." But considering how little below 60 Hz needs reinforcement in a small club, unless they specialize in showing earthquake movies or bass solos, subwoofers aren't likely to be necessary. They also aren't easy to lug around. HK Lucas (various sizes) . Sound good and easy to lug (wheel) around. Sub and satellites, all powered. geoff Great advice from everyone. Thank you very much. -Andy |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Les Cargill wrote:
(Scott Dorsey) wrote: Sean Conolly wrote: I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk. Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em. Hmm... I was actually thinking of something like the RCF NX12SMA, rather than the molded cabinet things. But I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would definitely give their offerings a try. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#25
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 10/28/2014 9:16 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would definitely give their offerings a try. The original Mackie SR series of speakers were RCF, back when there was a closer relationship between the two companies. No more, though. Different drivers, different amplifiers, different cabinets. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#26
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"Les Cargill" wrote in message ... Sean Conolly wrote: "hank alrich" wrote in message ... Peter Larsen wrote: "apa" skrev i en meddelelse ... I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). New? - IF USA and in the money: Meyer, if not rich probably Peavey. It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. No, that necessitates a (pair of) sub(s), you do not get full range in a pair of speakers to put on sticks. If he's in a small room, as implied by his description, the smaller QSC K Series have very much bass for the size of the package. I notice Mackie has now brought their SRM350's amp power up to match these, but even so, I'd not be deterred from the QSC's. The most recent installation of a Go Dance venue (Westgate area of South Austin TX) had me going through a lot of speakers and subs to identify what would work for the available money (no Meyers here!) and within the physical constraints of the space. Floor space is where money is made in a dance studio, and contemporary dance crowds want plenty of low end. In the spaces I faced, installing flying subs was going to be costly, on top of the cost of speakers, power, crossovers, and the rest of what would be needed. I spec'd QSC K-10's, six of them for the large room when the airwall is open. When the wall is closed the space is divided roughly 2/3 and 1/3, and four speakers serve the former, two the latter. A switch controls feed to the speakers, combining/separating per choice. Even after a lot of thought and number crunching I was a bit apprehensive that this rig would deliver what the dancers needed. In fact, it rocks the rooms, plenty of bottom, good coverage, and decent sound quality. (That's the last thing dancers care about. They want quantity.) I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. I'd get Behringer for PA before getting Mackie. Mackie is middle of the road, either go for the cheap OR for the good. Which is why I suggested either Meyer or Peavey if you're in the USA. If you're in Europe I'd suggest you listen to LD Systems, I think their Maui system comes close to what you ask about. Those HR824's are not a pretty listening speaker, but they will damn well drive one to mix as best one can. They are actually startlingly accurate in many ways, and one can get things sounding good on them, but it won't be easy. When accomplished, that mix will travel. En route they are going to put all the pimples right under the magnifying glass. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. There is an ailing live sound newsgroup, alt.audio.pro.live-sound. Oh, Electro Voice also makes some nice stuff. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue You are flat wrong, it is a primary health and safety issue. Amen. (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). The plastic boxes I am familiar with outperforms wood in their usable range. I find cabinet resonances a pain in the ears with the Mackies and Behringers, not enough experience yet with the QSC's in more crticial applications. I note that the next line up in QSC's stable ditches the plastic. I run into those boxes in Austin, but again, not in settings that allow me to judge much, and definietly not where I'd be able to A/B against the less costly line. http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/k_series/ http://qsc.com/products/loudspeakers/kw_series/ FWIW I've used the K12's on a number of gigs, and I personally think they are literally over-rated. That is: they sound good up till they go into hard limiting, but they hit that point at lower volumes than I expected. Did you have a sub with 'em? They are class D so, yeah. There's gonna be a hard limiter. They have "peak" max SPL of 131; take 10 off that for using the word "peak" and it's not exactly knocking the walls out. But 120dB @ 1 M should be enough for most club situations of 5000 to say 8000 sq. feet or so. Yes, we were using the QSC subs. And the levels were a bit more than a coffee shop :-) My point is that they are not really up to a mid-sized club, which is what the marketing specs suggest. I just suspect that I can get equal if not better performance for less with the RCF, again for a smaller venue. Sean |
#27
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
Les Cargill wrote:
(hank alrich) wrote: Les Cargill wrote: (hank alrich) wrote: apa wrote: I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). Thank you for any advice, Andy QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's. I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom. Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers. I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed. Good to know. I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em." I think they're a pretty good speaker line for the money, overall, and that you are right. One thing to consider when looking at the models is that the horn dispersion patterns are different. The 8" is 105°, the 10" is 90°, and the 12" is 75°, all of them conical. The little one works a treat in small rooms. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#28
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 29/10/2014 2:16 a.m., Scott Dorsey wrote:
Les Cargill wrote: (Scott Dorsey) wrote: Sean Conolly wrote: I haven't needed to purchase my own powed speakers yet, but if I had to buy something today in this price / performance range I'd probably go with RCF, such as: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc..._3_series.html The RCF is definitely worth listening to. It's certainly a lot cleaner than anything you'll find in an MI store and it doesn't honk. Cool. Thanks, Sean; thanks, Scott. I'd never heard of 'em. Hmm... I was actually thinking of something like the RCF NX12SMA, rather than the molded cabinet things. But I'll say that RCF has competent engineering on the whole and if they are trying to get into the MI market and compete with the Mackie SR I would definitely give their offerings a try. --scott They been there for yonks. At least they *were* there 10 years ago, and I've got an ART-300A to prove it ! geoff |
#29
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive, I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles? And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway. Is that really a good tradeoff? I'm asking, not arguing... Mark |
#30
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 10/28/2014 5:05 PM, wrote:
why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive, Some do, some don't. I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles? Most of them use Class D (or above) amplifiers which don't have big power or output transformers, and offer lots of watts for very few pounds. The amount of weight added to the weight of the drivers and cabinet is pretty insignificant. And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway. Yup, usually both, but you don't have to run heavy (12 gauge or so) cables from the power amplifier to the speakers. It's pretty much an even tradeoff as far as how much copper you need to buy and carry. And if you'll be setting up in various unknown venues, it's usually easier to extend power cables than speaker cables if you need to do so. One important benefit is that the speaker and power amplifier can be accurately matched to each other. Also, modern powered speakers usually have some protection so that you can't blow the drivers, and many are now including highly tweaked and tweakable DSP crossover functions that get more predictable speaker performance than you can get with a capacitor to keep the lows out of the tweeter. But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier. Everything is a compromise, but these days, at nearly any given price point, when you consider the cost of the full system including packaging, you can usually get better sound from a powered speaker than a passive speaker and separate power amplifier. And it's a little more idiot-proof than having separate components. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#31
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
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#32
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
wrote:
why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive, I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles? And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway. Is that really a good tradeoff? I'm asking, not arguing... Mark Modern powered PA speakers are using digital amps, and the packages are surprisingly lightweight, considering. The new 1000W Mackie SRM350 weighs 23 lbs. The QSC K series boxes weigh 27, 32, and 41 lbs. for the 8", 10", and 12" models. Upscale, up price, and way up quality, a Meyer UPA-1P weighs 77 lbs, which is about the same as my quarter-century old UPA-1A's, which are passive. Amps and drivers can be matched more precisely when the length of the speaker wire is a known constant in the equations, and the very short lengths of speaker wire displace a lot of heavy cable needed to reach passive speakers, especially if we are bi-amping our system. Yeah, you must run power, and yeah, it's a bit of a PITA, but overall you wind up hauling less wire, handling fewer packages, and enjoying better performance more consistently. -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
#33
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
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#34
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 29/10/2014 11:22 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
.. But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier. But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work. Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well render both channels unusable ! geoff |
#35
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
On 10/29/2014 2:40 AM, geoff wrote:
Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier. But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work. Sometimes, but if you use the conventional setup with one speaker at each side of the stage, where do you put the one speaker that's working? In the middle, in front of the lead singer? Of course you can make something work, but if I had the choice of only one channel driving two speakers or only one channel driving one speaker, most of the time I'd opt for the two speakers. Placement usually trumps another 3 dB of SPL. Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well render both channels unusable ! Yes, if it's a failure that's common to both channels. But given a random failure, there's a chance that one channel of the two will work. Failures are failures. Some are unrecoverable until you fix something, but others have better work-arounds than others. -- For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com |
#36
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
wrote:
why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive, I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles? Yes.... and if you have crossovers and racks of amps, it can be a lot more than one box. Keeping items off the inventory that will get lost in shipment is a big deal. On the other hand... if an amp fails on a speaker that is flown, you have to get the damn thing down to replace it, rather than just replacing the amp in the rack. With unpowered speakers, you might even have extra amp channels so you can repatch to a new amp in the event of a failure. But, these days a lot of cabinets have integrated amplifier/crossover/dsp for pattern control when the cabinets are linked together into large arrays, and I grant it's easier to do this with the electronics in the cabinet. And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway. Yes, BUT the AC power cords are often a lot lighter than speaker cables, and they are more common. The signal cables are normally just XLR. So you do have more cables to each cabinet, but lighter cable weight. Is that really a good tradeoff? To be honest, I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other and that you should pick the system that sounds good and not worry about where the amps are. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#37
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
hank alrich wrote:
Modern powered PA speakers are using digital amps, and the packages are surprisingly lightweight, considering. The new 1000W Mackie SRM350 weighs 23 lbs. The QSC K series boxes weigh 27, 32, and 41 lbs. for the 8", 10", and 12" models. Yeah, but I can buy those same digital amps in racks, and if I do that the speakers are even more lightweight! To be honest with a 23 lb speaker that size, I worry a lot about structural rigidity and keeping resonances down. A little more weight might not be a bad thing. Amps and drivers can be matched more precisely when the length of the speaker wire is a known constant in the equations, and the very short lengths of speaker wire displace a lot of heavy cable needed to reach passive speakers, especially if we are bi-amping our system. I'll buy that, and it's ALSO possible to do more effective speaker protection by limiting at the amplifier, if you know exactly what the speaker is and how it overloads. Yeah, you must run power, and yeah, it's a bit of a PITA, but overall you wind up hauling less wire, handling fewer packages, and enjoying better performance more consistently. Until an amp fails and someone has to go up on a truss to get the cabinet down. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#38
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
wrote in message
... why do folks prefer powered speakers vs passive, I get the idea of one less box to shlep to the gig, but isn't it a bigger pain to have to lift the extra weight onto the poles? And you have to run AC power to the speakers? or one speaker anyway. Is that really a good tradeoff? I'm asking, not arguing... Consider a situation where you have two mains on sticks, two subs, and four floor monitors. With conventional amps for the speakers I have a rack with four power amps to carry and fit on a usually cramped stage. The powered speakers don't use any more space, but I can ditch the amp rack entirely, and just have a small rack for effects and gates, etc. Swap the mixer for a small digital mixer like the QSC and I don't need the effects rack either. I can get down to a point where I just carry the mixer (on a little folding TV table) and the speakers I need, and the required cables. You can buy powered cables now, but they aren't cheap. The down side is of course that being self-contained if you have a failure the whole speaker is out of service. Also the electronics have to be engineered to survive a high vibration environment, in addition to restricted airflow for cooling. That's part of what you're (or should be) paying for - it's not just a speaker and an amp, it's the whole system designed to work well and reliably. Finally, it's not something to skimp on. I've heard several in the $300 range that sound much worse than a plain passive speaker. Sean |
#39
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
"hank alrich" wrote in message
... Les Cargill wrote: (hank alrich) wrote: Les Cargill wrote: (hank alrich) wrote: apa wrote: I'm looking for a pair of powered PA speakers for small gigs (gallery / coffee house size). It would need to handle full range electronic instruments as well as vocals. I have Mackie HR824's for monitors in the studio and I'm pretty happy with them so I'm inclined to stay with Mackie. But I really don't know the PA Market well so I'm wondering if there are any strong opinions on brands to look at or brands to avoid in the powered PA area. Sooth response is probably the biggest issue for me. Weight is not an issue (I assume the lighter plastic cabinet ones are fairly resonant and I want to avoid that). Thank you for any advice, Andy QSC K8 or K10. Don't decide how large a woofer you need until you try those. These boxes are better than what I've heard from Mackie, although if I were mostly acoustic and in small venues I could be happy using SRM350's, but not SRM450's. I'd get the 12 anyway; 3dB "free" headroom. Yeah, but, IME it doesn't sound as good as the two with smaller woofers. I'm allowing that the OP's intended usage should not require any reasonable modern system to be driven into clipping. If I'm wrong, those are coffee houses and galleries to which I am unaccustomed. Good to know. I will have to listen to those smaller ones, then. My reaction to the K12 was just "my god, the midrange works on 'em." I think they're a pretty good speaker line for the money, overall, and that you are right. One thing to consider when looking at the models is that the horn dispersion patterns are different. The 8" is 105°, the 10" is 90°, and the 12" is 75°, all of them conical. The little one works a treat in small rooms. Smaller speakers tend to have a wider midrange dispersion in that critical area right below the cross-over point, which is a big plus. Sean |
#40
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Powered PA Speakers with 12" Driver
geoff wrote:
On 29/10/2014 11:22 a.m., Mike Rivers wrote: . But the tradeoff here is that, while the drivers are pretty well protected from overloads, the power amplifiers, being electronic, are bound to fail sometime. Unless you carry a spare amplifier module and are good at field repair, you can't do a work-around like you can with separate components if you lose one channel of your power amplifier. But if you have 2 speakers , one will still work. Conversely a stand-alone (electronic, the same !) amp failure may well render both channels unusable ! geoff Yep, we gamble when we don't carry spares, but in the cheap trenches, spares are out of the budget. I am reminded, however, of AES 1998 in SF, where Meyer had a large booth demoing many products. What I found most fascinating was a military environmental test chamber into which you could see, with a bare power amp in there, getting signal and being driven stoutly feeding speakers, completely exposed to the "elements" in the chamber. They would swing that chamber between various _extremes_, I mean Sahara-like one hour, and the North Pole the next, with Amazon swamp and downpour coming right along, and then have snow fall all over it, in real time, for the duration of the show. That amp never even hiccupped. When people wonder why Meyer costs so much, it's the little things like that. When they state a device will deliver whatever into such and such, they mean _continuously_, and not merely for a few hours under favorable conditions. I spite of that, if you hit their site to look over the powered boxes, you will note that they also tout the modularity of their built-in amps, and the ease of field replacement. They accept that you can do your best, but you cannot sustain "perfect". -- shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com HankandShaidriMusic.Com YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic |
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