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Upgrade or Downgrade of the Martin Logan
Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin
Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience? I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1 right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to the Prodigy? Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the above two (three)? Thanks for your advice. Lawrence |
#2
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On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence wrote:
Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience? They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself. I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1 right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to the Prodigy? No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a home demo is *essential*. BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable speaker. Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the above two (three)? Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself. In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention, they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in, so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of your system. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#3
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence wrote: Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience? They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself. I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1 right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to the Prodigy? No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a home demo is *essential*. BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable speaker. Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the above two (three)? Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself. In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention, they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in, so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of your system. -- An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it. |
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On 7 Oct 2004 03:15:14 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... On 5 Oct 2004 23:56:34 GMT, Lawrence wrote: Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience? They certainly sound *different*, as you'd expect. 'Better' is not a term which sensibly fits those two, since both are highly competent and have similar design credentials. Go listen for yourself. I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1 right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to the Prodigy? No way to tell, since they're not in your room. Go listen for yourself. In particular, get a home demo. With speakers like these, a home demo is *essential*. BTW, I can see where you're coming from on amps, since Parasound uses the NAD model of local design and overseas manufacture. Rest assured that this John Curl design (hence the JC1) is as good as anything made by Halcro or Mark Levinson (did you know that John Curl has also designed ML products?), and has enough power to drive any reasonable speaker. Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the above two (three)? Entirely different room interaction with the big Maggies, especially in the bass. Are they 'better'? Who knows? Go listen for yourself. In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention, they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in, so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of your system. -- An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it. But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place? -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#5
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote in
: In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention, they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in, so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of your system. First, thank you Mr. Pinkerton for your feedback. Second, in a more general sense, the purpose of this forum is for people to ask questions and/or opinions. If everybody think, "Well, why should I ask questions / opinions, I just go test drive myself." Then this forum will be useless other than for people argue about DBT! Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? If you don't know, just say it or not reply to this thread. Thanks! Lawrence |
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Lawrence wrote:
Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Do you disagree that all speakers have audible flaws that are severe enough in degree and number to render them 'accurate' in the sense that amplifiers are that they can be chosen in the same way? |
#7
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Lawrence wrote in message news:
Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound different. There's some good research that correlates listener preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears. Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears. bob |
#8
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On 8 Oct 2004 05:17:48 GMT, Lawrence wrote:
Stewart Pinkerton wrote in : In a more general sense, why do you want other people's opinions on the sound of speakers? Especially with the planar types you mention, they will vary *enormously* depending on the kind of room they're in, so despite both being high quality speakers with large dipole radiators, my Apogees are not going to sound anything like your Prodigys, since they are in entirely different rooms. Understanding such basics is *essential* to advancing the overall sound quality of your system. First, thank you Mr. Pinkerton for your feedback. Second, in a more general sense, the purpose of this forum is for people to ask questions and/or opinions. If everybody think, "Well, why should I ask questions / opinions, I just go test drive myself." Then this forum will be useless other than for people argue about DBT! Depends what you want to know, now doesn't it? You want to be told something that is impossible to say with any reasonable degree of accuracy. Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Did you not read what I wrote? If you have worked your way up to Prodigys (I'm assuming that they're not your first speaker!), then you should already know that (unlike amps or cables) almost all speakers sound very noticeably different. Since you use large planar dipoles, you should also be aware that moving them a couple of feet makes a *vast* difference to how they sound. Hence, aside from simplistic 'things to avoid' advice on basically *bad* speakers (of which there are virtually none in the large planar category), it's simply not possible to say that one speaker of this type will sound 'better' than another in any given room. I've not heard anything better than my Apogee Duetta Signatures in *my* room (for my personal tastes, of course), but say Quad 989s might be better than anything else in *your* room - or they might not. Your Prodigys are fine speakers by any standard, so perhaps you could start by letting us know in what way *you* find them to be less than ideal, and we might point you to speakers which excel in those areas - there are no speakers which do *everything* superbly. If you don't know, just say it or not reply to this thread. What I said was that neither I *nor anyone else* apart from you knows what a large planar dipole speaker (which appears to be the type you prefer) will sound like in *your* room. If you consider that to be non-useful information, then I suggest you try somewhere like www.audioasylum.com, where you will be absolutely *deluged* with flamboyant opinions on any speaker you care to name. The *value* of those opinions is perhaps more arguable.................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#9
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#10
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it. But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place? -- It is assumed we are not putzing around here and that we have the funds available not only to purchase the speakers but also own the equipment necessary for their satisfactory amplification. It is also assumed we have appropriate living quarters for a suitable location offering their best possible sound (and that we will not have to move them about when we are entertaining so as to then trip over their cableing :-) Twelve inches towards a wrong location makes a huge difference in the sound of my Maggies. Are you suggesting that a dealer will sacrfice his floor model for a 2 week audition or is he/she to offer you a brand new MG 20.1 for this purpose? If the latter, once out of their original boxes and in your home for this audition, how are they to be sold, new/used? How will the speaker be trucked back and forth to your home? Who is going to undertake the cost of their safe packageing and transport in the event you decide not to purchase them? As I indicated, "neat trick if you can do it". My Magnepan dealer has been in my home attending to the ribbons in my speakers several times and in another occasion to install wire behind my walls and underneath a crawl space in another room used for HT. Yet I still don't not have the balls to suggest what you are proposeing. |
#11
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On 9 Oct 2004 04:52:41 GMT, Lawrence wrote:
(Bob Marcus) wrote in : Lawrence wrote in message news: Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound different. There's some good research that correlates listener preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears. Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears. bob No! That is totally unacceptable! When people said cables, pre-amps, and amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or else you just imagine yourself. Correct - and you'll find that if you compare speakers under DBT conditions, you'll score 100% every time. Indeed, companies such as Revel use precisely this technique in the development of their speakers, to find out if some design tweak has *really* made an audible difference. Hence, the science *has* been done, and it shows that speakers do indeed sound different. It follows that judgements on speakers are indeed entirely subjective, and you should not fully trust the opinion of anyone else, since they will have different preferences and will be listening in different rooms. Personally, I can't stand overbright treble, and that personal preference would colour my opinion of any given speaker. I also have a quite large and fairly 'dead' room with no slap echo, so I can tolerate a level of bass power and depth which would be quite overwhelming in a different environment. When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally subjective! I said no such thing, and 'belief' has nothing to do with the *fact* that speakers have gross audible differences. I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt it because that is what you are doing in speakers! Utter rubbish. I appreciate Stewart's feedback, and I will go to listen with my own ears, but sometimes it is pretty hard to move around a Innersound speakers or a Magneplan. Nobody said that getting the best possible sound was *easy* - or cheap! -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#12
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Lawrence wrote in message ...
(Bob Marcus) wrote in : Lawrence wrote in message news: Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound different. There's some good research that correlates listener preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears. Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears. bob No! That is totally unacceptable! Well, it's the truth. If you can't accept the truth, you should run for president. When people said cables, pre-amps, and amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or else you just imagine yourself. Yes, that is (roughly) what we guys said, because that is what scientific investigation has found: Two components with similar FR and measured distortion cannot be reliably distinguished by sound alone. When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally subjective! No, that is not what we/I said at all. Scientific investigation has *proven*, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that speakers are almost always distinguishable by sound alone. I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt it because that is what you are doing in speakers! No, it's a single standard. Note that scientific investigation is the basis for all of the assertions I made above. bob |
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#15
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Lawrence
I'm not sure many of these responses will have moved you forward much. Stewart Pinkerton makes a valid point about each of these speakers sounding different in different rooms, but nevertheless.... I own Innersound Eros speakers and like them very much. In my view they manage the transition between electrostatic and transmission line better than the Martin Logan equivalents, though I think latest ML models have improved in that respect. I can also vouch for the quality of their after-sales service (and like Stewart, I'm in the UK, so geography is an issue). But you really do need to hear them both, even if you can't manage this simultaneously! -- Paul Graber "Lawrence" wrote in message ... Hi, I've heard that the Innersound speakers sound better than the Martin Logan, is that the case? Anyone has the experience? I have the Martin Logan Prodigy driven by a pair of Parasound Halo JC1 right now. How's the Kaya Reference or the Eros MK III sounds compare to the Prodigy? Just an addition comparison, how about the Magnepan MG 20.1 compare to the above two (three)? Thanks for your advice. Lawrence |
#16
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
... On 9 Oct 2004 04:57:34 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message ... An in home audition of a MG 20.1? Neat trick if you can do it. But otherwise, there's simply *no* point in giving advice, since large planar dipoles are acutely room-sensitive. Besides, any dealer selling MG 20s should without question be offering a 'money back' home trial of at least two weeks. If you can't afford to pony up for that, how were you going to pay for the speakers in the first place? -- It is assumed we are not putzing around here and that we have the funds available not only to purchase the speakers but also own the equipment necessary for their satisfactory amplification. It is also assumed we have appropriate living quarters for a suitable location offering their best possible sound (and that we will not have to move them about when we are entertaining so as to then trip over their cableing :-) Twelve inches towards a wrong location makes a huge difference in the sound of my Maggies. Are you suggesting that a dealer will sacrfice his floor model for a 2 week audition or is he/she to offer you a brand new MG 20.1 for this purpose? If the latter, once out of their original boxes and in your home for this audition, how are they to be sold, new/used? How will the speaker be trucked back and forth to your home? Who is going to undertake the cost of their safe packageing and transport in the event you decide not to purchase them? As I indicated, "neat trick if you can do it". My Magnepan dealer has been in my home attending to the ribbons in my speakers several times and in another occasion to install wire behind my walls and underneath a crawl space in another room used for HT. Yet I still don't not have the balls to suggest what you are proposeing. That you, in your own words, "don't have the balls" to suggest a 'sale or return' deal on speakers which may be quite unsuited to your room, does not make it a bad idea. I don't know what dealers are like in your area, but I have *never* encountered a 'high-end' dealer in the UK who was not prepared to allow such a deal, and I would certainly never deal with one who had such an attitude. What, if you spent say $5,000 on a pair of speakers that just didn't work in your room, you would be happy to keep them? BTW, I would be happy to pay for shipping costs in such a case, although the matter has never come up. In fact, my local dealer *insists* on making home deliveries, probably as a security measure. I have probably rejected a dozen assorted amplifiers and speakers over the years after a few days home trial, and this has never caused a problem. To be fair, I've spent the same or more money on actual purchases, so the dealers know that there's an eventual sale in it - I'm not just a 'tyre kicker'. I don't think I've ever taken more than a week to decide that something just wasn't going to work, but any dealer I've ever bought from has had a 30-day return policy - and not with any 'restocking' charges. -- I too have bought and auditioned lots of equipment from my dealer over a long time, on one occassion taken home his demo Sequerra 1 FM tuner for a weekend (while his store was closed) with no problems or reservations whatsoever. However I agreed to have the tuner back in his store when he re-opened Monday 10AM (and did). Yet I still would not either ask for his floor demo MG20.1 for even a single week nor would I ask to get home (one way or another) a brand new stock MG 20.1s for audition and perhaps only then to decide to stay with my old speakers. I would not want to buy a new ? MG 20.1 that (even) you had in your home for a single hour nor would I expect the dealer to be without his floor model for a single week perhaps causeing him to lose a sale to another dealer which did have a MG 20.1 on site. My last word on this subject is as was my first, "neat trick if you can do it". |
#17
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"When it comes to something that you believe, you then said any scientific
figures or measurements would not count, you have to be totally subjective! I call it double standard! So from now on, when people claim that they can hear the difference between cables, amplifiers, you just cannot doubt it because that is what you are doing in speakers! " There is no difference when testing amps/wire and speakers. Both are done by listening alone and the only result of the test is to see if a difference, any difference, can be spotted. This ability to spot a difference depends mostly on the differences rising above an audible threshold. With a distortion difference big enough to rise above the threshold, two amps can be spotted. In speakers there are many differences that almost always rise above the threshold, for example the room interaction effects. When speakers are of a similar design and with similar room interactions, etc.; the differences are harder to spot but are still enough different to hear in testing. Same test, same standards, same thresholds. |
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#19
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#20
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"I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver." The more likely difference in the electro / cone difference is radiation pattern of the dipole electro and the monopole cone, very different interactions with the room and the pattern as seen in the listening spot. "Fast" has no meaning in a speakers performance except as it applies to bandwidth. It takes x "speed" to produce a 100 hz signal, regardless of speaker type and no more. |
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#22
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Regarding "speed" of speakers:d
"Well, I have noticed that almost every crossover design delays the bass quite a bit. I experimented with Linkwitz-Riley 2nd and 4th order designs and found them inacceptably introducing a delay, which had the effect of what I call the bass is "limping behind". I now use a novel subtractive active xover I developed myself and now the bass integrates absolutly flawless with my Manger MSW treble speakers. The pulse response has become beautiful." This is not related to "speed", the original comments were in the context that a cone sub and electro mid and upper sounded different because the sub didn't have the "speed" of the latter. Many sub woofers have phase controls, which can address the "time" mismatch to some degree, as can placement and swapping wire connections just as easily and with a greater range. The "delay" introduced is questionable with regard to audibility, this can be tested of course, grin. There is also the question of x amount of delay at all freqs and increasing delay with freq change. The former is addressed as above. In some research of audibility of the latter it was not audibile if matched in the xover region and smoothly changed with freq. |
#23
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On 9 Oct 2004 04:52:41 GMT, Lawrence wrote: (Bob Marcus) wrote in : Lawrence wrote in message news: Since you are so famous on making "scientific comparison" among different products, why all of a sudden when it comes to speakers, it becomes pure subjective? Because scientific comparison demonstrates that, when it comes to speakers, it really is purely subjective, at least in a practical sense. Speakers, unlike (most) amps and wires, really do sound different. There's some good research that correlates listener preferences with speaker measurements, but those measurements are far more detailed than anything you can find on a spec sheet. So all the average consumer has to go on is his ears--or somebody else's ears. Stewart was merely suggesting that you go with your own ears. bob No! That is totally unacceptable! When people said cables, pre-amps, and amplifiers made a difference, they said they can hear it, it is totally subjective, at that time, you guys said it has to has scientific prove or else you just imagine yourself. Correct - and you'll find that if you compare speakers under DBT conditions, you'll score 100% every time. Indeed, companies such as Revel use precisely this technique in the development of their speakers, to find out if some design tweak has *really* made an audible difference. Harman/JBL appears to use it at least as much to nullify biasing effects of brand and appearance, when doing comparisons of different speakers. -- -S Your a boring little troll. How does it feel? Go blow your bad breath elsewhere. |
#24
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"B&D" wrote in message
... I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver. I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer. Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't be any. In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles, "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it over anything else. They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers. |
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On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article , "Norman M.
Schwartz" wrote: "B&D" wrote in message ... I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver. I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer. Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't be any. The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area that I know of. http://www.thesoundconcept.com/ The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW. I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too. In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles, "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it over anything else. You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll off something fierce. They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers. One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper pririties! :-) I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily enough! They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they don't have it |
#26
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#27
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On 12 Oct 2004 01:34:18 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz"
wrote: "B&D" wrote in message ... I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver. I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer. Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't be any. However, it appears from another post that there are several in one fairly restricted area, suggesting that there is indeed a fair number of fdealers who carry both brands. IME, good high end dealers do carry competing brands, as it's in their interest to offer a good choice to their customers. Some of the less scrupulous companies such as Linn do certainly go to some lengths to pressure their dealers against such stocking of competitors' wares, but I don't believe this to be widespread among reputable manufacturers. In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles, "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it over anything else. Well, that's certainly one opinion, but if you like that style of sound, you should also listen to other full-range panels, such as Audiostat, Sound Lab, ML's own CLS, and of course the Quad 988/989. They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). I have Apogee Duetta Signatures, and they are definitely not 'steely ice cold', they are in fact one of the most natural sounding speakers I have ever heard, even more so than the Maggie IIIC with which I directly compared them when purchasing. Of course, to coin a phrase, I would say that! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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"B&D" wrote in message
... On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article , "Norman M. Schwartz" wrote: "B&D" wrote in message ... I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver. I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer. Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't be any. The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area that I know of. http://www.thesoundconcept.com/ The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW. I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too. In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles, "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it over anything else. You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll off something fierce. They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers. One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper pririties! :-) I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily enough! They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they don't have it After owning Maggies, only Thiels and before that IMF monitors floated my boat among dynamics. |
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"B&D" wrote in message
... On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article , "Norman M. Schwartz" wrote: "B&D" wrote in message ... I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver. I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer. Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't be any. The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area that I know of. I suppose that is what meant by "live and learn". You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll off something fierce. This is true, but why would anyone want to stand up when listening? Another problem which I experience related to *seating* elevation is that when I choose a chair putting me closer to the floor, the lower frequencies become bloated and the resultant soundstage is unattractive. I think the take home lesson from all this is that one must to be very careful and do a lot of experimenting with both speaker placement *and* seating position before reaching any firm conclusion as to faults and strengths of any speaker system. (People who perform room Equeing must be very familiar with this situation.) Perhaps maggies require more attention to this issue than do most other speakers? |
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