Hi. Recently for grins I tried adding some reverb to an entire mix.
(FWIW, the unit used was a TC Electronics M2000) My intent was to make
the mix sound like it was recorded in a decent sounding small room.
The guitar world has its amp simulators, and I was going for a "room
simulator", at least in theory.

No fault of the M2000, I couldn't get decent results.

My acoustics knowledge is limited, but I'm guessing that adding reverb
to a mix is nowhere near the acoustic complexity of a real room, with
microphones picking up drums, amps, and reflections off room surfaces.
Can someone confirm that this is why it didn't sound good? (Or maybe
I was just doing it wrong? Maybe it's doable with the right unit?)

Is anyone doing research on room simulators?

Do amp simulators (SansAmp, Roland COSM, others) factor virtual rooms
into their math?

Thanks.
Roger

"Roger Carlson" wrote in message
m...
Hi. Recently for grins I tried adding some reverb to an entire mix.
(FWIW, the unit used was a TC Electronics M2000) My intent was to make
the mix sound like it was recorded in a decent sounding small room.
The guitar world has its amp simulators, and I was going for a "room
simulator", at least in theory.

No fault of the M2000, I couldn't get decent results.


If you were processing the whole mix you'd probably have a hard time. You
need to be able to process each track in the mix separately.

My acoustics knowledge is limited, but I'm guessing that adding reverb
to a mix is nowhere near the acoustic complexity of a real room

No it isn't. Because what you are doing now is essentially sending two
direct sound points (the left and right of the stereo mix) into the unit.
Everything is already "mixed" when it gets to the reverb so each instrument
(within the mix) is processed the same.

microphones picking up drums, amps, and reflections off room surfaces.
Can someone confirm that this is why it didn't sound good? (Or maybe
I was just doing it wrong? Maybe it's doable with the right unit?)

Is anyone doing research on room simulators?

Not only research but plenty of stuff is already available, some for free.

If you can use VST plugins try this:
http://www.knufinke.de/sir/index_en.html and some good room impulses.

There's also Acoustic Mirror by Sonic Foundry (now Sony). Samplitude 7 has a
room simulator. So does Voxengo.

I use a Cakewalk plugin called Soundstage (or sometimes FX3 as it was a
series they offered). I feel they dropped the ball by not developing this
further. The sound is FANTASTIC. If they'd develop the interface more
(especially letting you place each track, or what they call the 'performer'
and microphone pair in a single window) they could have a huge hit on their
hands. Though it would almost have to be integrated into Sonar to work like
that. But they have done the integration thing with their Lexicon plugin
already.

Here's a nice little article on it that I think will answer a lot of your
questions in general:
http://www.prorec.com/prorec/article...2567360056D538

Roger,

I agree with all that Ricky said. I use varying amounts of "small room"
reverb on individual soft-synth tracks in Sonar to make instruments sound
more like real players in a real room. It works quite well, but you have to
use it sparingly - a little goes a long way.

--Ethan

In a real space it is not only delay at work but a change in frequency
shaping and direction of sound arrivial that provides the clues to the
brain about a room and it's dimensions. In a simple mic recording much of
that information is there and might be aided by some delay. In a multi
layered pan pot multi mic recording the information is helplessly lost.

Hi. Recently for grins I tried adding some reverb to an entire mix.
(FWIW, the unit used was a TC Electronics M2000) My intent was to make
the mix sound like it was recorded in a decent sounding small room.
The guitar world has its amp simulators, and I was going for a "room
simulator", at least in theory.

No fault of the M2000, I couldn't get decent results.

My acoustics knowledge is limited, but I'm guessing that adding reverb
to a mix is nowhere near the acoustic complexity of a real room, with
microphones picking up drums, amps, and reflections off room surfaces.
Can someone confirm that this is why it didn't sound good? (Or maybe
I was just doing it wrong? Maybe it's doable with the right unit?)

Is anyone doing research on room simulators?

Do amp simulators (SansAmp, Roland COSM, others) factor virtual rooms
into their math?

Thanks.
Roger

My intent was to make
the mix sound like it was recorded in a decent sounding small room.
The guitar world has its amp simulators, and I was going for a "room
simulator", at least in theory. No fault of the M2000, I couldn't get decent
results.


The Lexicon PCM60 could do decent room simulations at the smallest & shortest
setting. The Yamaha REV 7 could do a small room rather well also. Any of the
higher end reverbs I've had sound less like real rooms, probably because they
have too much 'sheen'.

Scott Fraser

In article ,
(ScotFraser) writes:

The Lexicon PCM60 could do decent room simulations at the smallest & shortest
setting. The Yamaha REV 7 could do a small room rather well also. Any of the
higher end reverbs I've had sound less like real rooms, probably because they
have too much 'sheen'.

I think the Kurzweil Rumor does a relatively good job of imitating a small room
too. I havent done any A/B comparison with my PCM 60 but judging from memory it
seems like the Rumor is in the same ballpark.

Garth~


"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

Roger Carlson wrote:
My acoustics knowledge is limited, but I'm guessing that adding reverb
to a mix is nowhere near the acoustic complexity of a real room, with
microphones picking up drums, amps, and reflections off room surfaces.
Can someone confirm that this is why it didn't sound good? (Or maybe I
was just doing it wrong? Maybe it's doable with the right unit?)

Without even going into the problems you describe (and I am also no
acoustics expert), I think the basic approach would not work. Putting a
finished mix into a room simulator IMO results in the sound of your mix
being played (by a boombox for instance) in the virtual room you put it in,
and depending on your parameters you place the listener closer or further
from this source. Even with the best of room simulators, if you want it to
sound like people playing in your virtual room, you have to place those
people there by sending the amount and stereo placement of the track
individually from the multitrack source to the effect. In my experience,
this worked pretty well with the Yamaha ProR-3.

Luck, Arjan

--
----Real email: news then at then soundbyte then dot then nl----

"Arjan P" wrote in message
...
Putting a
finished mix into a room simulator IMO results in the sound of your mix
being played (by a boombox for instance) in the virtual room you put it
in,

Ha! I was trying to think of a good way to put that but couldn't come up
with how to write it, but you're exactly right. He might have more luck
using a preset on his home theatre unit (if he has one and assuming it's
just for him).

Roger Carlson wrote:

Hi. Recently for grins I tried adding some reverb to an entire mix.

Perfectly possible.

Is anyone doing research on room simulators?

Adobe Audition has one. I can make it work.

Internally any digiverb, the tc stuff included uses one btw. What their
stuff could do was on an occasion to make the Tivoli Concert Hall sound
like more of itself on an occasion, see my site (Live Brahms). Sound
example not provided, but it may be on the ensemble's own site.

Do amp simulators (SansAmp, Roland COSM, others) factor
virtual rooms into their math?

It is perhaps better if they do not so do.

Roger


Kind regards

Peter Larsen

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