[Nil[_2_]]

I know I'm hopelessly out out of the "loop", so to speak, but what's up
with the practice of selling "beats". I see lots of ads on craigslist
like this one:

http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/muc/4823089987.html

Is this really how hip hop and such musics are made, somebody buys pre-
made rhythm tracks from unknown parties and then... what exactly? Rap
over the top of it? Does the "beatmaker" get composing credit?

I don't quite get it. I can't get away from the idea that the music,
melody, and lyrics should be integrated somehow, not bolted together
from parts bought from a store.

Or am I mis-imagining the process?

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/1/2015 12:27 AM, Nil wrote:
Is this really how hip hop and such musics are made, somebody buys pre-
made rhythm tracks from unknown parties and then... what exactly? Rap
over the top of it?

Yup

Does the "beatmaker" get composing credit?

Depends on the deal. Ask your lawyer if you're planning to sell a song
using a track created by someone else. Or just listen to a few, and make
'em yourself.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

Nil wrote:
I know I'm hopelessly out out of the "loop", so to speak, but what's up
with the practice of selling "beats". I see lots of ads on craigslist
like this one:

http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/muc/4823089987.html

Is this really how hip hop and such musics are made, somebody buys pre-
made rhythm tracks from unknown parties and then... what exactly? Rap
over the top of it? Does the "beatmaker" get composing credit?

I don't quite get it. I can't get away from the idea that the music,
melody, and lyrics should be integrated somehow, not bolted together
from parts bought from a store.

Or am I mis-imagining the process?


It's Craigspam, Jake. Er, Nil.

--
Les Cargill

[Nil[_2_]]

On 31 Dec 2014, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

On 1/1/2015 12:27 AM, Nil wrote:
Is this really how hip hop and such musics are made, somebody
buys pre- made rhythm tracks from unknown parties and then...
what exactly? Rap over the top of it?

Yup

Does the "beatmaker" get composing credit?

Depends on the deal. Ask your lawyer if you're planning to sell a
song using a track created by someone else. Or just listen to a
few, and make 'em yourself.

Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality, because it's a genre that I didn't grow up with, isn't
marketed with me in mind, and I don't understand or relate to it. But
it seems to me that this process doesn't result in "music" as I think
of it, even though it has musical elements. It's something else, but I
don't quite know what.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/1/2015 2:03 AM, Nil wrote:
Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality, because it's a genre that I didn't grow up with, isn't
marketed with me in mind, and I don't understand or relate to it. But
it seems to me that this process doesn't result in "music" as I think
of it, even though it has musical elements. It's something else, but I
don't quite know what.

Don't strain yourself. You don't have to like everything that someone
calls (or sells as) music.

You can think of it as poetry with background music, and the "beat" is
the background music. Or you can just let those who listen to it or
create it do their thing. For the record, I don't get anything from it
either, but I don't let it bother me. If someone came to me with a rap
lyric and asked me to write and record a beat for him, I'd tell him he
was asking the wrong person. Not all recording engineers are created
equally.

But if he brought me a beat and wanted me to record his voice over it, I
might have a little fun with that. But I'm sure someone who knows the
genre could to a more creative job.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[PStamler]

What you're seeing, Nil, is the place where hip-hop intersects folk music, or the folk process. I think the guys selling beats aren't anticipating nationwide sales, but are selling the beats to neighborhood rappers -- amateurs, in other words, practicing a folk art.

Peace,
Paul

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/1/2015 6:06 AM, PStamler wrote:
What you're seeing, Nil, is the place where hip-hop intersects folk
music, or the folk process. I think the guys selling beats aren't
anticipating nationwide sales, but are selling the beats to
neighborhood rappers -- amateurs, in other words, practicing a folk
art.

But these days it's hard to tell the neighborhood rappers that they
shouldn't anticipate nationwide sales, or at least nationwide
distribution. Buy a $10 beat on line and after a few million views on
YouTube, that beat could have made the composer a lot of money, but won't.

Remember that there's no exemption from copyright law simply because you
aren't collecting money through the use of someone else's creation.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Tom McCreadie]

Mike Rivers wrote:

On 1/1/2015 2:03 AM, Nil wrote:
Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality, because it's a genre that I didn't grow up with, isn't
marketed with me in mind, and I don't understand or relate to it.

You can think of it as poetry with background music, and the "beat" is
the background music.

Alas, by the need to 'keep up with the beat', that species of poetry is
invariably facile, simplistic, rhyming dictionary claptrap...a far cry from the
poetry that Kingsley Ames (I believe) once defined as "heart-rending sense".

Ach, my New Year's resolution for 2015 is to lighten up :-)

[Scott Dorsey]

On 1/1/2015 2:03 AM, Nil wrote:
Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality, because it's a genre that I didn't grow up with, isn't
marketed with me in mind, and I don't understand or relate to it. But
it seems to me that this process doesn't result in "music" as I think
of it, even though it has musical elements. It's something else, but I
don't quite know what.

There are two things you're seeing he first of all the lack of melody
and secondly the fact that it's built in loops and samples like Musique
Concrete.

I don't think the two are necessarily related, they just seem to have
happened at the same place and the same time.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Frank Stearns]

Nil writes:

On 31 Dec 2014, Mike Rivers wrote in
rec.audio.pro:

On 1/1/2015 12:27 AM, Nil wrote:
Is this really how hip hop and such musics are made, somebody
buys pre- made rhythm tracks from unknown parties and then...
what exactly? Rap over the top of it?

Yup

Does the "beatmaker" get composing credit?

Depends on the deal. Ask your lawyer if you're planning to sell a
song using a track created by someone else. Or just listen to a
few, and make 'em yourself.

Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality, because it's a genre that I didn't grow up with, isn't
marketed with me in mind, and I don't understand or relate to it. But
it seems to me that this process doesn't result in "music" as I think
of it, even though it has musical elements. It's something else, but I
don't quite know what.

It's one facet of what I (and others) have called "manufactured music".

Only now the "assembly line" isn't some inartistic A&R sot from the record company
barking grotesque orders over a talkback to equally clueless "artists", anyone who
fancies themselves a mechanic -- er, musician -- can grab blisterpack parts off the
rack and throw something together.

The likely result is simply a contribution to the noise with very little (if any)
signal. (Though we do remain ever hopeful.)

The silver lining of a future CME or EMP event is that a lot of this stuff will
vanish. Hell, even the careless way many in this camp "manage" their I.T. helps
filter it.

Frank

--

[[email protected]]

If you listen carefully to Kid Rock "All Summer Long" you can clearly hear the opening drum solo best from Billie Jean(M. Jackson) chopped up to fit the bars of the more recent song.

[[email protected]]

Mike Rivers wrote: "I've never heard either of those two songs so I wouldn't have a clue, nor would I care where "the music" from a Kid Rock song came from. "

Well as far as the first part of your response is concerned, yes, I'm fairly certain that's where that beat came from - my analysis being from listening on actual quality headphones and speakers - not cheapo ear buds.

Per the above quote: Allow me to introduce myself(and by extension YOU - to what the rest of us listen to): I'm a musical 99-percenter. I listen to stuff that the vast majority of ordinary people, from 9 to 99 years old, listen to, in their homes, cars, in concert, or on a plane or train ride to somewhere.

That would include Bing Crosby, Joe Cocker, Marvin Gaye, the Beatles, Bee Gees(as soloists or together), Zeppelin, Cold Play, Diana Ross, Bruno Mars, Mozart, Flo-Rida, and even Tony Orlando & Dawn.

So my ears have become suitably trained in the detection of samples lifted by one generation of pop/rock star from another, thank you very much and Happy New Year.

[geoff]

On 1/01/2015 2:49 p.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/1/2015 2:03 AM, Nil wrote:
Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality,

You can think of it as poetry with background music, and the "beat" is
the background music.

..... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions)
brings to mind the "crap poetry" kneejerk reaction ;-)

geoff

[[email protected]]

geoff wrote: ".... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions) "

There is meaning to all forms/genres of musical expression. I never let style get in the way of the message if that message is positive and uplifting.

[hank alrich]

geoff wrote:

On 1/01/2015 2:49 p.m., Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/1/2015 2:03 AM, Nil wrote:
Hmmm... I feel a disconnect. I try to avoid the "rap is crap" kneejerk
mentality,

You can think of it as poetry with background music, and the "beat" is
the background music.

.... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions)
brings to mind the "crap poetry" kneejerk reaction ;-)

geoff

I like to get 'em at the local farmer's market, where they are fresh and
down to earth!

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[geoff]

On 2/01/2015 3:01 p.m., wrote:
geoff wrote: ".... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions) "

There is meaning to all forms/genres of musical expression. I never let style get in the way of the message if that message is positive and uplifting.



Excatly. Killing Motherf**ing bitches and hoes, random violence, crime
(etc etc) I don't find a very uplifting meaning. And appears to me to
be prevalent in the genre.

Of course I could be wrong.

But there is plenty of stuff that is likely to appeal to me that I have
yet to audition .....

geoff

[[email protected]]

geoff wrote: "Of course I could be wrong. "

Wise words my friend, wise words.

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

wrote:
geoff wrote: ".... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions) "

There is meaning to all forms/genres of musical expression. I never let
style get in the way of the message if that message is positive and uplifting.

If that's the case ("message is positive and uplifting"), then rap may not
be the musical genre for you.

[Jonathan[_5_]]

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 11:50:42 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 2/01/2015 3:01 p.m., wrote:
geoff wrote: ".... most of which that I have ever heard (with occasional exceptions) "

There is meaning to all forms/genres of musical expression. I never let style get in the way of the message if that message is positive and uplifting.



Excatly. Killing Motherf**ing bitches and hoes, random violence, crime
(etc etc) I don't find a very uplifting meaning. And appears to me to
be prevalent in the genre.

Of course I could be wrong.

But there is plenty of stuff that is likely to appeal to me that I have
yet to audition .....

geoff

When it comes to defining art, there is no accounting for taste.
Being a public commuter, however, I am hugely appreciative that those silly "Beats" headphones are becoming so popular. They keep the sound in a hell of a lot better than earbuds.

[[email protected]]

Ralph Barone, geoff:

There is rap with positive lyrics out there, but I won't spoon feed it to you. Open your minds and look for it.

As for Beats headphones, one advantage of their being closed back is they keep their innaccurate sound quality in(!)

[Tobiah]

On 01/01/2015 10:30 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/1/2015 7:18 PM, wrote:
If you listen carefully to Kid Rock "All Summer Long" you can
clearly hear the opening drum solo best from Billie Jean(M.
Jackson) chopped up to fit the bars of the more recent song.

I've never heard either of those two songs so I wouldn't have a clue,
nor would I care where "the music" from a Kid Rock song came from.

Living as long as you have, while avoiding hearing Billie Jean would
be an impressive accomplishment. I'd have to guess that you are mistaken!

[[email protected]]

Tobiah wrote: "Living as long as you have, while avoiding hearing Billie Jean would
be an impressive accomplishment. I'd have to guess that you are mistaken! "


This portion of the John Birch Society reunion thread is sponsored by..... !

[[email protected]]

Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/2/2015 7:30 PM, Tobiah wrote:
Living as long as you have, while avoiding hearing Billie Jean would
be an impressive accomplishment. I'd have to guess that you are mistaken!

Well, how about that I'm not conscious of hearing it. Will that do?

--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.


I doubt it's actually racist. People run into what they run into; if
you don't speak the language, it's gonna take effort to learn it, and
people may or may not spend the time. And given the estimated
average age of r.a.p posters, we may mostly be people who were not
of an age to appreciate rap in an organic fashion.

My kids got me to listen to Eminem - so no real racism, right? I thought
it was clever but I don't agree with the format much. It also
seemed a little too self-absorbed. He's very good at that, but I'm
just not looking for that.

Since part of the reason that sort of thing is on the market is to
be something your parents don't like, I'd say it met its design goal.

--
Les Cargill

[Ron C[_2_]]

On 1/2/2015 3:35 PM, Jeff Henig wrote:
wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.

Dude.

Not even gonna' veer into that general direction, other than to say: my
enjoyment of music is decided by synapses, not melanin.

Wondering if there's a race card corollary to Godwin's law...
[If not, maybe there should be.]

==
Later...
Ron Capik
--

[PStamler]

On Friday, January 2, 2015 2:02:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.

I think, as Mike said, they're mostly generational. I hear a lot of people saying exactly the same things about rap that my parents' generation said about rock: it's nothing but noise; the words are simplistically stupid, etc.. I'm old enough to remember how I felt when I heard those things, and it bothers me to hear them coming out of the mouths of my colleagues.

Rap/hip-hop isn't a style that I listen to for enjoyment, but ?I respect it as a music that's taking chances and being creative. Kind of like the way I felt about Sinatra and his take on the "American Songbook": not to my taste, but I respect the talent that went into it.

As a side note, the same things that are said about rap today and were said about rock in its early years were said about big-band swing when it was hot, and about jazz and ragtime when they were new. Don't believe me? Go do some reading.

Another side note: I'm with Scott on anger as a potential driver of powerful music. See the "Leningrad" symphony, or the Kinks' "Dead End Street", or Dylan's "Positively Fourth Street", or Lead Belly's "Bourgeois Blues" -- you can feel the anger in every line and phrase. And they're all great music. IMHO, of course.

Peace,
Paul

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

wrote:
Ralph Barone, geoff:

There is rap with positive lyrics out there, but I won't spoon feed it to
you. Open your minds and look for it.

As for Beats headphones, one advantage of their being closed back is they
keep their innaccurate sound quality in(!)

I'm sure there is rap music out there with positive lyrics, but I suspect
it's like diamond mining. You may find some gems, but you have to dig
through 20 tons of gravel to find it. I'll dig where the gravel suits my
taste a bit better, thanks.

[[email protected]]

Ralph Barone:

Couldn't use a crowbar to open your mind...

[Gray_Wolf]

On Fri, 2 Jan 2015 20:35:16 +0000 (UTC), Jeff Henig
wrote:

wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.

Dude.

Not even gonna' veer into that general direction, other than to say: my
enjoyment of music is decided by synapses, not melanin.

No kidding. Who doesn't like BB King et al?

[geoff]

On 3/01/2015 1:49 p.m., PStamler wrote:
On Friday, January 2, 2015 2:02:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a little racist.

I think, as Mike said, they're mostly generational. I hear a lot of people saying exactly the same things about rap that my parents' generation said about rock: it's nothing but noise; the words are simplistically stupid, etc. I'm old enough to remember how I felt when I heard those things, and it bothers me to hear them coming out of the mouths of my colleagues.


However there does seem less actual *musical* skill required in each
successive 'generation' of music. No ?

geoff

[hank alrich]

geoff wrote:

On 3/01/2015 1:49 p.m., PStamler wrote:
On Friday, January 2, 2015 2:02:03 PM UTC-6, wrote:
Jeff Henig:

I just happen to find the attitudes on this thread toward rap to be a
little racist.

I think, as Mike said, they're mostly generational. I hear a lot of
people saying exactly the same things about rap that my parents'
generation said about rock: it's nothing but noise; the words are
simplistically stupid, etc. I'm old enough to remember how I felt when I
heard those things, and it bothers me to hear them coming out of the
mouths of my colleagues.


However there does seem less actual *musical* skill required in each
successive 'generation' of music. No ?

geoff

Kids chops today are better than ever. I meet amazing players not yet
into their mid-20's. I don't think I'll use rap music as a basis to
judge the general state of overall musicianship in the world today!

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Scott Dorsey]

geoff wrote:

However there does seem less actual *musical* skill required in each
successive 'generation' of music. No ?

No, that's just technology.

One person with Sibelius can perform a whole orchestral score even if
he can't play any instruments. Technology can make older generations
of music with less skill as well.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Jeff Henig wrote:
hank alrich wrote:

Kids chops today are better than ever. I meet amazing players not yet
into their mid-20's. I don't think I'll use rap music as a basis to
judge the general state of overall musicianship in the world today!

So you're saying "the kids are alright"?

I think there are fewer really good performers today, because there are
fewer performers in general, really.

There were fewer music classes in schools twenty years ago and fewer
kids learning to play instruments. Then a decade ago there were fewer
places playing live music, where amateur musicians could become professional
and professionals could work their skills up. So today there are fewer
really top notch performers as a result.

Which to my mind means we need to take better care of the ones we have.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Ralph Barone[_2_]]

wrote:
Ralph Barone:

Couldn't use a crowbar to open your mind...

I prefer to keep my skull closed. I hear it works better that way :-)

[Les Cargill[_4_]]

wrote:
Ralph Barone:

Couldn't use a crowbar to open your mind...



This is R.A.P.

We use ball-peen hammers for that.

--
Les Cargill

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Jeff Henig wrote:
hank alrich wrote:

Kids chops today are better than ever. I meet amazing players not yet
into their mid-20's. I don't think I'll use rap music as a basis to
judge the general state of overall musicianship in the world today!

So you're saying "the kids are alright"?

I think there are fewer really good performers today, because there are
fewer performers in general, really.

There were fewer music classes in schools twenty years ago and fewer
kids learning to play instruments. Then a decade ago there were fewer
places playing live music, where amateur musicians could become professional
and professionals could work their skills up. So today there are fewer
really top notch performers as a result.

Which to my mind means we need to take better care of the ones we have.
--scott

My perspective may be skewed via my Austin-centric workbase, but down
here there is a very large supply of very good players, writers, and
performers, with many who fit all three slots.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic

[Tobiah]

On 1/2/2015 12:19 PM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 1/2/2015 7:30 PM, Tobiah wrote:
Living as long as you have, while avoiding hearing Billie Jean would
be an impressive accomplishment. I'd have to guess that you are
mistaken!

Well, how about that I'm not conscious of hearing it. Will that do?


Listen to 60 seconds of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_XLOBDo_Y

and then answer. If you are seriously not familiar
with the content of this piece, then I will take my
hat off to you and declare you a national wonder.

HAHA! Just being light here, so you know.

[Mike Rivers[_2_]]

On 1/4/2015 4:21 AM, Tobiah wrote:
Listen to 60 seconds of this: (Billie Jean - Michael Jackson)
and then answer. If you are seriously not familiar
with the content of this piece, then I will take my
hat off to you and declare you a national wonder.

The first 10 seconds was a non-closeable ad. The first 20 seconds of the
song was a "beat" (to stay on topic here) which could have been
anything. The next ten seconds with some chords didn't really define
anything. When the lyrics finally started, I really can say that I
wasn't familiar with them.

So eat your hat and send me my certificate.

The closest thing to familiarity with a Michael Jackson hit is Weird
Al's "Eat It" parody of Beat It. I actually did hear Beat It because I
used to watch MTV for the music and that was a hit back in those days. I
thought it was pretty good. But that didn't make me want more, and I
didn't have to try very hard to not hear more.



--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com

[Tobiah]

The first 10 seconds was a non-closeable ad. The first 20 seconds of the
song was a "beat" (to stay on topic here) which could have been
anything. The next ten seconds with some chords didn't really define
anything. When the lyrics finally started, I really can say that I
wasn't familiar with them.

Even when he goes, "IIIIIIII am the one....."? Ok, you may be the one
guy who hasn't heard this song many times. I envy you then, in this
respect :O


So eat your hat and send me my certificate.

Hey, let's not jump ahead here. I said I would
"take my hat off to you". Different.

I don't think I mentioned a certificate either,
although I am considering starting a Wikipedia article
about the one guy who is into music, but is not familiar
with this particular piece. Peace.

Tobiah