[cipher]

ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and one
of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors would be
completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one time, the
resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling heaps of
powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but damn. who can
make this thing work for me?

at a loss here.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/thebullards/?
action=view&current=dueventischematic.jpg

http://www.yousendit.com/download/TT...YStTSURIRGc9PQ

[Eeyore]

cipher wrote:

ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and one
of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors would be
completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one time, the
resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling heaps of
powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but damn. who can
make this thing work for me?

My guess is that it's a horribly badly designed heap of crap. The schematic as
it is tells NOTHING as there are for example no resistor ratings.

Buy a decent solid-state amp and say goodbye to horribly unreliability
'designed' by tube morons with next to zero electronic skill.

Graham

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 3, 3:56*pm, cipher wrote:
ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and one
of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors would be
completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one time, the
resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling heaps of
powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but damn. who can
make this thing work for me?

at a loss here.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/thebullards/?
action=view&current=dueventischematic.jpg

http://www.yousendit.com/download/TT...YStTSURIRGc9PQ

Ignore Graham and his irrational feelings towards tubes - however his
points on build-quality are accurate.

Consider that you have the Fiat of tube amps - When they go, they go
well. But that is perhaps 10% of the time. Given what you have
described it is remarkable that you have not fried your tubes or
destroyed your transformers yet.

a) Replace 100% of the resistors with those of an appropriate rating
for the purpose. If what you took out was a 1/4-watt, put in a 1/2
watt and like that from bottom to top. Power-resistors should be at
least 10 watt types.
b) Verify correct bias voltage.
c) Look for cold-solders, bad solders, dry solders, cracked wiring,
poor mechanical connections, loose tube bases and all the other sorts
of things that happen in a don't'-give-a-sh*t build environment. Be
prepared to replace wiring, bases, connections and so forth.
d) Fuse it properly. I would even suggest you add internal fuses as
well. By upsizing resistors, you have removed any sort of safety that
a blown resistor might have provided by being undersized.

This is basic stuff. Once you are past that, I am sure that Patrick
can point you to many more elaborate and extensive upgrades you can do
towards not only better reliability but even better sound. And you
will learn a lot in the doing of it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[fryzz]

On Dec 3, 3:56 pm, cipher wrote:
ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and one
of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors would be
completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one time, the
resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling heaps of
powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but damn. who can
make this thing work for me?

at a loss here.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/thebullards/?
action=view&current=dueventischematic.jpg

http://www.yousendit.com/download/TT...YStTSURIRGc9PQ

Do you have a schematic, a multimeter, and some technician skills? Is
it always the same resistor? Do the output tubes ever run too hot,
with the plates are glowing cherry red?

The first thing to look at is what the output tubes' idle current is.
You can measure the resistance of the plate windings on the output
transformers, and with the amp on and the inputs shorted, measure the
voltage between plate and V+. Then use that, with the resistance, and
Ohm's law, to calculate the plate current. Multiply that current by
the plate voltage to get the plate dissipation. You can look up the
tube characteristics, and then determine if they are being run within
ratings. If that all looks good, maybe the resistors used by the
manufacturer are under rated.

You can also use the drop across the cathode resistor (assuming it's
cathode biased), remembering that this value will also include the
screen current.

[Phil Allison]

"cipher"
my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and one
of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors would be
completely desoldered and rattling around in the case.

** Err - which ones are doing this?

Kind helps to know.




...... Phil

[cipher]

fryzz wrote in
:

On Dec 3, 3:56 pm, cipher wrote:
ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and
one of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors
would be completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one
time, the resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling
heaps of powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but
damn. who can make this thing work for me?

at a loss here.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/thebullards/?
action=view&current=dueventischematic.jpg

http://www.yousendit.com/download/TT...YStTSURIRGc9PQ

Do you have a schematic, a multimeter, and some technician skills? Is
it always the same resistor? Do the output tubes ever run too hot,
with the plates are glowing cherry red?

The first thing to look at is what the output tubes' idle current is.
You can measure the resistance of the plate windings on the output
transformers, and with the amp on and the inputs shorted, measure the
voltage between plate and V+. Then use that, with the resistance, and
Ohm's law, to calculate the plate current. Multiply that current by
the plate voltage to get the plate dissipation. You can look up the
tube characteristics, and then determine if they are being run within
ratings. If that all looks good, maybe the resistors used by the
manufacturer are under rated.

You can also use the drop across the cathode resistor (assuming it's
cathode biased), remembering that this value will also include the
screen current.


I have that crude schematic. I do have a nice multimeter, yes. The tubes do
actually run hot, yes with them glowing like close encounters or
something......that has happened several times.

I cant see why the ones used by the manufacturers woould be underrated??
they are a company of pretty good reputation, but..I am not a tech guy.


www.mastersoundsas.it

[cipher]

Eeyore wrote in
:



cipher wrote:

ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and
one of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors
would be completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one
time, the resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling
heaps of powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but
damn. who can make this thing work for me?

My guess is that it's a horribly badly designed heap of crap. The
schematic as it is tells NOTHING as there are for example no resistor
ratings.

Buy a decent solid-state amp and say goodbye to horribly unreliability
'designed' by tube morons with next to zero electronic skill.

Graham



Ah, you are a bit grumpy, Sir, but thats cool.

I can get a better schematic.

I dont like the SS sound. have had plinius(use in the studio), bryston,
quad, and many, many other reputable brands...

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 3, 5:16*pm, cipher wrote:

I cant see why the ones used by the manufacturers woould be underrated??
they are a company of pretty good reputation, but..I am not a tech guy.

Actually not.

The "Fiat" comment was specific and appropriate. You need to entirely
rebuild the beast, and likely install additional safeguards to
overcome the wretched original build-quality.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Eeyore]

cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.

Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS sound'. I designed one for
example with a measured 0.0008% THD when the test set could only resolve
0.0007%. This' back calculates' to a 0.0004% figure which is around -107dB,
i.e. the distortion would be below the threshold of audibility even when
listening at 106dB SPL ! Tubes however do have a 'sound' because they
distort the music. Some strange people prefer this distortion.

In your case it would seem the resistor wattages were under-rated (a typical
audiophool trait) and are simply unsoldering themselves or burning up. To be
expected from the ham-fisted 'design' capabilities of many tube nuts.
Nothing will solve it unless you can fit higher wattage parts but since the
design looks as agricultural as a Russian tractor, frankly I wouldn't
bother.

Graham

[tubegarden]

Hi RATs!

Unlike curmudgeonry, old amps sometimes need understanding and
insight.

Get over your ego pump and take it to someone who understands.

Asking for the secret on a newsgroup is just silly.

Happy Ears!
Al

[cipher]

flipper wrote in
:

On Wed, 03 Dec 2008 14:56:46 -0600, cipher wrote:

ok..

my mastersound amp..

love the sound of it. got it for a great price.

BUT... every month or two, a channel would go out. id look inside and
one of the resistor legs would be desoldered or one of the resitors
would be completely desoldered and rattling around in the case. one
time, the resistors were completely heat destroyed, totally crumbling
heaps of powder. this happens about once a month. i love the amp, but
damn. who can make this thing work for me?

at a loss here.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l292/thebullards/?
action=view&current=dueventischematic.jpg

http://www.yousendit.com/download/TT...YStTSURIRGc9PQ

Which 'resistors'?

If I were to guess I'd imagine it's the EL34 cathode resistors but you
really need to be more detailed.

Just looking at the schematic the first thing that pops out is whether
it's biased properly. I.E. Those two pots down on the 20V winding.

The second thing is those adjustment pots are not reliable, as
designed. The wiper is all 'alone', meaning if it breaks contact,
which can happen, bias goes bonkers. And that would be consistent with
seeming to work fine for a while and then, all of a sudden, run away.

Out of curiosity, why didn't you just post the schematic pic itself
instead of a 'screen shot'?


I posted what I had, bud.

I sure as hell wouldnt hold anything back...

r68.. the problem children

[cipher]

Peter Wieck wrote in news:ffbfdd65-7ff8-411a-9b8b-
:

On Dec 3, 5:16*pm, cipher wrote:

I cant see why the ones used by the manufacturers woould be underrated??
they are a company of pretty good reputation, but..I am not a tech guy.

Actually not.

The "Fiat" comment was specific and appropriate. You need to entirely
rebuild the beast, and likely install additional safeguards to
overcome the wretched original build-quality.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Sir, can you tell me what about it is lackluster?

I am not a tech guy, so I have no idea.

it baffles me, the thought that a company would put resistors in that were
not the proper value, knowing well the consqequences..

mine is the only one that seems to have this problem, all others are fine,
or at least the 10 folks Ive spoken to that own em.

of course mine was a demo unit.

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 4, 3:07*pm, cipher wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote in news:ffbfdd65-7ff8-411a-9b8b-
:

On Dec 3, 5:16*pm, cipher wrote:

I cant see why the ones used by the manufacturers woould be underrated??
they are a company of pretty good reputation, but..I am not a tech guy..

Actually not.

The "Fiat" comment was specific and appropriate. You need to entirely
rebuild the beast, and likely install additional safeguards to
overcome the wretched original build-quality.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Sir, can you tell me what about it is lackluster?

I am not a tech guy, so I have no idea.

it baffles me, the thought that a company would put resistors in that were
not the proper value, knowing well the consqequences..

mine is the only one that seems to have this problem, all others are fine,
or at least the 10 folks Ive spoken to that own em.

of course mine was a demo unit.

YIKES!

You are kinda-sorta discovering exactly what is wrong with the amp -
by fits and starts, but from the failures you describe that should be
enough. Demo unit or not, that it was released into polite society
with shoddy, poorly specified components, poor-quality solder joints
(no matter how hot they get, they should not fall apart, the first
part of good joint is a good mechanical connection) and so forth... .

I would hardly describe that as "lackluster". I would describe it as
"wretched", and I did. Now, you have to rebuild it with proper
components fit for the purpose and good technique to support them.
After that, and some electrical tests (bias and correct voltages at
least), it should be as ready to go as its electrical design permits,
which is to be distinguised from its Build Quality. Baffling or not,
you got what they did - and they clearly didn't give a hoot.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Phil Allison]

"cipher"

r68.. the problem children


** Jeez - it took a while to squeeze THAT simple fact out of you.

What a ****head you are.

The " problem children " are not the resistors but the EL34s, you colossal
JERK.

Get some good new ones (Russian not Chinese) and set the bias to 5 volts on
each 68 ohm cathode resistor.



...... Phil

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 4, 7:07*pm, flipper wrote:
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008 13:45:29 -0800 (PST), Peter Wieck
wrote:





On Dec 4, 3:07*pm, cipher wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote in news:ffbfdd65-7ff8-411a-9b8b-
:

On Dec 3, 5:16*pm, cipher wrote:

I cant see why the ones used by the manufacturers woould be underrated??
they are a company of pretty good reputation, but..I am not a tech guy.

Actually not.

The "Fiat" comment was specific and appropriate. You need to entirely
rebuild the beast, and likely install additional safeguards to
overcome the wretched original build-quality.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Sir, can you tell me what about it is lackluster?

I am not a tech guy, so I have no idea.

it baffles me, the thought that a company would put resistors in that were
not the proper value, knowing well the consqequences..

mine is the only one that seems to have this problem, all others are fine,
or at least the 10 folks Ive spoken to that own em.

of course mine was a demo unit.

YIKES!

You are kinda-sorta discovering exactly what is wrong with the amp -
by fits and starts, but from the failures you describe that should be
enough. Demo unit or not, that it was released into polite society
with shoddy, poorly specified components, poor-quality solder joints
(no matter how hot they get, they should not fall apart, the first
part of good joint is a good mechanical connection) and so forth... .

I would hardly describe that as "lackluster". I would describe it as
"wretched", and I did. Now, you have to rebuild it with proper
components fit for the purpose and good technique to support them.
After that, and some electrical tests (bias and correct voltages at
least), it should be as ready to go as its electrical design permits,
which is to be distinguised from its Build Quality. Baffling or not,
you got what they did - and they clearly didn't give a hoot.

You have no idea what the 'quality', or anything else, was when it
left the factory as it's obviously been repaired, and more than once.

Um.... to whom is this directed? The amp has failed on multiple
occasions - enough anyway for multiple repairs. The OP was here
earlier with melted tubes and similar failures - The pictures of the
amp itself suggest far less than even ordinary build quality.

Of course, whatever left the factory and whatever the present state
might be, the entirety needs to be rebuilt. That much is clear. Once
it is functioning reliably *as-designed* (not the same as *as-built*),
then the OP can delve further into it.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 4, 6:56*pm, "Phil Allison" wrote:
"cipher"

r68.. the problem children

** Jeez *- *it took a while to squeeze THAT *simple fact out of you..

What a ****head you are.

The " problem children " are not the resistors but the EL34s, *you colossal
JERK.

Get some good new ones (Russian not Chinese) and set the bias to 5 volts on
each 68 ohm cathode resistor.

..... * Phil

Phil:

Let's get the amp to a sustainable level of operation before he slags
new Russian tubes. Best he experiment with and stabilize the crap
before he feeds a three-legged, two of them broken, donkey good hay.

I am sure you could diagnose and -fix- this amp in perhaps 30 minutes
were it in front of you. It isn't.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Phil Allison]

"Peter Wieck"


The OP was here
earlier with melted tubes and similar failures - The pictures of the
amp itself suggest far less than even ordinary build quality.


** What pics ??

I found a bunch of baby snaps and two schematics - one of them illegible,
the other OK.



...... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"flipper"


The pictures of the
amp itself suggest far less than even ordinary build quality.

What pictures?

** Yeah - wot pics ?


If you mean the ones in the 'album', a casual tube count indicates
that isn't the amp being discussed.

Near as I can tell, the amp should probably look like this

http://www.mastersoundsas.it/NEW%20S...20SE%20ing.pdf


** Nothing alarming in that pic.


No it isn't. What's 'clear' is the cause of the fault needs to be
identified.


** Errr - 400 volt DC supply,

88mA ( nominal) per EL34,

220k resistors feeding grid bias

= recipe for disaster in my book.



...... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"flipper"
"Phil Allison"

The pictures of the
amp itself suggest far less than even ordinary build quality.

What pictures?

** Yeah - wot pics ?


If you mean the ones in the 'album', a casual tube count indicates
that isn't the amp being discussed.

Near as I can tell, the amp should probably look like this

http://www.mastersoundsas.it/NEW%20S...20SE%20ing.pdf


** Nothing alarming in that pic.


No it isn't. What's 'clear' is the cause of the fault needs to be
identified.


** Errr - 400 volt DC supply,

88mA ( nominal) per EL34,

220k resistors feeding grid bias

= recipe for disaster in my book.

Took me a second shot at the URLs before I discovered the PDF.

Yeah, that does sound pretty hot but that's Ia plus screen and maybe
B+ isn't 400 by the time it get's though the choke and OPT DCR. Still
looks too high even taking that into account, though.

You thinking the grid leaks are too high?


** Yep.


My datasheet says they ought
to be good to 500k.


** When EL34 plates get to a dull red glow, grid leakage current often goes
through the roof making 500k way too high. ( Depends a lot on which
manufacturer and the quality and *cleanness* of the plastic base material
and internal mica supports. )

Once leakage( from the screen pins) starts to pull the grid pin voltage down
towards zero, thermal runaway sets in and then BOOM go the cathode
resistors.

The OP might find fan cooling the EL34s helps a real lot - but he probably
would not like the noise.


No screen stoppers, though.

** Noted.



....... Phil

[Eeyore]

flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.

Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS sound'.

Bull

True. Godd SS amps are entirely transparent. Tubes are coloured. Fine if you LIKE
that colour but a bad choice generally.

Graham

[Eeyore]

flipper wrote:

On Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:25:53 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:

In your case it would seem the resistor wattages were under-rated (a typical
audiophool trait) and are simply unsoldering themselves or burning up.

A clueless stab in the dark.

Clearly totally spot on.

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"flipper" wrote in message

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 12:38:26 +0000, Eeyore
wrote:



flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.

Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS
sound'.

Bull

True. Godd SS amps are entirely transparent. Tubes are
coloured. Fine if you LIKE that colour but a bad choice
generally.

Bull

Mostly truth.

Sonically transparent tubed amps can and have been built and sold. However,
they tend to be far larger, heavier, more wasteful of natural resources,
less reliable, more expensive to mainatin, and far, far more expensive than
a SS amp that sounds the same.

If transparent tube amps were the kinds of amps that tube hobbiest were
building, then so be it, it is their time and money. However, SE and
anti-inverse-feedback have become stylish. Still no problem, as it is still
the tubies time and money. But then they get all weird and tell the rest of
the world that this is the holy grail and the only way to obtain good sound.
Foul!

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Eeyore wrote:

flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.
Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS sound'.
Bull

True. Godd SS amps are entirely transparent. Tubes are coloured. Fine if you LIKE
that colour but a bad choice generally.


I am not sure that choice is actually involved. The source material is
inevitably coloured. If it is an old recording it was recorded using
tubes or old transistor and transformer technology all of which adds its
own colour. If it is a modern recording it is certain to have been
'processed' digitally which also adds its own particular colour.

Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has little effect.

Cheers

Ian

Graham

[vtc]

Eeyore wrote:

cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.

Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS sound'. I designed one for
example with a measured 0.0008% THD when the test set could only resolve
0.0007%. This' back calculates' to a 0.0004% figure which is around -107dB,
i.e. the distortion would be below the threshold of audibility even when
listening at 106dB SPL ! Tubes however do have a 'sound' because they
distort the music. Some strange people prefer this distortion.

In your case it would seem the resistor wattages were under-rated (a typical
audiophool trait) and are simply unsoldering themselves or burning up. To be
expected from the ham-fisted 'design' capabilities of many tube nuts.
Nothing will solve it unless you can fit higher wattage parts but since the
design looks as agricultural as a Russian tractor, frankly I wouldn't
bother.

Graham


THD is one parameter based on a sine wave & does not alone determine
accurate sound. Listened to many solid state amps with low THD that
sound like crap.

[vtc]

Eeyore wrote:

cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.

Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS sound'. I designed one for
example with a measured 0.0008% THD when the test set could only resolve
0.0007%. This' back calculates' to a 0.0004% figure which is around -107dB,
i.e. the distortion would be below the threshold of audibility even when
listening at 106dB SPL ! Tubes however do have a 'sound' because they
distort the music. Some strange people prefer this distortion.

In your case it would seem the resistor wattages were under-rated (a typical
audiophool trait) and are simply unsoldering themselves or burning up. To be
expected from the ham-fisted 'design' capabilities of many tube nuts.
Nothing will solve it unless you can fit higher wattage parts but since the
design looks as agricultural as a Russian tractor, frankly I wouldn't
bother.

Graham


Get a grip on reality. Take a look at all of the high definition
television sets that are solid state that burn up routinely from
underrated resistors. The same can be said for solid state amps many of
which are famous for frying loudspeakers when they fail.

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 5, 10:38*am, Ian Bell wrote:

I am not sure that choice is actually involved. The source material is
inevitably coloured. If it is an old recording it was recorded using
tubes or old transistor and transformer technology all of which adds its
own colour. If it is a modern recording it is certain to have been
'processed' digitally which also adds its own particular colour.

Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has little effect.

Huh?

You are serious?

Um... one would at least like to *start* with a 'totally transparent
replay chain' - and then have the option to make one's particular
color-choices from there. Otherwise one runs a nearly 100% chance of
achieving *MUD* as the resulting "color".

Not that SS systems are necessarily colorless either. That is NOT the
point. But to state that because the original signal is somehow
colored, nothing else matters is just plain nuts.

It would seem that the goal of any system is to be transparent. To the
extent that it is not is the extent to which it fails to achieve its
goal. How much and how good instrument it is vs. only a conveyance is
a separate matter - and gets into revealed religion for many.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 10:38 am, Ian Bell wrote:

I am not sure that choice is actually involved. The source material is
inevitably coloured. If it is an old recording it was recorded using
tubes or old transistor and transformer technology all of which adds its
own colour. If it is a modern recording it is certain to have been
'processed' digitally which also adds its own particular colour.

Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has little effect.

Huh?

You are serious?

Um... one would at least like to *start* with a 'totally transparent
replay chain' - and then have the option to make one's particular
color-choices from there. Otherwise one runs a nearly 100% chance of
achieving *MUD* as the resulting "color".

Not that SS systems are necessarily colorless either. That is NOT the
point. But to state that because the original signal is somehow
colored, nothing else matters is just plain nuts.

It would seem that the goal of any system is to be transparent. To the
extent that it is not is the extent to which it fails to achieve its
goal. How much and how good instrument it is vs. only a conveyance is
a separate matter - and gets into revealed religion for many.


I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. A completely
transparent SS system (or any other type for that matter) is pointless.
The poor frequency response and distortion introduced by most speakers
makes it a waste of time for starters, not to mention the effect of the
room acoustics which in most home environments are atrocious. Add to
that the fact the recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.

Cheers

Ian
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 5, 1:05*pm, Ian Bell wrote:

I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. A completely
transparent SS system (or any other type for that matter) is pointless.
The poor frequency response and distortion introduced by most speakers
makes it a waste of time for starters, not to mention the effect of the
room acoustics which in most home environments are atrocious. Add to
that the fact the recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.

Mpfffff.... so, since I am going to get knocked out in the fight
anyway, I should therefore lean into the punch so as to receive the
maximum damage? Why does that strike me as not only defeatist, but
just plain wrong? I may as well go out and search for a vintage Radio
Shack 5-watt SS amp and "Coustic Search" White Van speakers as I am
not going to get much better no matter what else I might do.

A completely transparent system will give me the best possible chance
to achieve a result closest to the original signal. Once there, I can
add/delete/enhance aspects of whatever signal I am dealt so as to make
it sound as close to my preference as possible. Short of that, I am
left with mud over which I have no control at all.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Arny Krueger]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message

Eeyore wrote:

flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.
Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS
sound'.
Bull

True. Good SS amps are entirely transparent. Tubes are (typically)
coloured. Fine if you LIKE that colour but a bad choice
generally.

I am not sure that choice is actually involved.

Looks like we are heading for a spin session. How can the classic goal of
minimizing coloration be spun into what it is not in an attempt to assert
that an outdated technology is actually superior?

The source material is inevitably coloured.

However, that coloration is part and parcel of an artistic work.

Lets compare a recording to a painting.

Let's compare listening via .a amplifier with coloration to looking at
paintings through colored glasses.

So the argument then becomes, since the colors in paintings rarely if ever
precisely match the actual colors of the object being represented, in real
life looking at paintings through an arbitrarily-chosen set of colored
glasses all of the time (having it as the primary amplifier in your best
hifi system) is actually quite defensible.

Indeed, if a little color is OK (e.g. say a Dyna ST70) then using welder's
goggles (e.g. a SET amplifier) is even better.

Conventional wisdom is that minimizing coloration is a good thing, and if
additional coloration is desired, then it should of an
intelligently-designed kind, and it should be applied with taste and
discretion and to suit the desires of the listener.

Instead, tube amplifiers particularly the highly-colored ones exhibit a
different, more-or-less randomly selected form of coloration, every time you
hook them up to a different speaker. This is over and above the inherent
coloration of the speaker, which may actually be less.

If it is an old
recording it was recorded using tubes or old transistor
and transformer technology all of which adds its own colour.

Or if it is a new recording that was made using specifically-colored
microphones and then equalized electronically to suit the ears of some
artist or producer, then more color has been added.

The thing is that all of these forms of color were added intentionally. In
contrast to the random colorations that many tubed amplfiiers exhibit, which
arbitrarily varies with the impedance curve of the speaker they are hooked
up to, these colors are like artist's colors, chosen from a pallette, by
people who were part of the creative process.


If it is a modern recording it is certain to have
been 'processed' digitally which also adds its own
particular colour.

There is no reliable evidence that simply using digital recording of a
reasonably high caliber, causes any audible coloration at all. There have
been many attempts to obtain this kind of evidence, but it always turns out
to be highly elusive.

Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has
little effect.

Excluded middle argument. The usual goal of high fidelity is clear from the
meaning of the words high and fidelity. Note that the phrase is not "perfect
fidelity" as Ian seems to be suggesting, but rather "high fidelity".

[Arny Krueger]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message

Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 10:38 am, Ian Bell
wrote:

It would seem that the goal of any system is to be
transparent. To the extent that it is not is the extent
to which it fails to achieve its goal. How much and how
good instrument it is vs. only a conveyance is a
separate matter - and gets into revealed religion for
many.

I understand what you are saying but I think you are
wrong. A completely transparent SS system (or any other
type for that matter) is pointless.

Not hardly. A completely transparent SS system (i.e., a reproduction system
whose components are typically either SS or tubed, but in this case SS) can
easily be transparent. Furthermore, just about all audiophiles think that
this is a good thing.

The poor frequency
response and distortion introduced by most speakers makes
it a waste of time for starters,

Not true. Some modern tubed amplifiers are so flawed that they have
response and distortion that is in the same range as speakers, or even
worse.

not to mention the
effect of the room acoustics which in most home
environments are atrocious.

If these room environments are so bad, why is it that we can sort colored
amplifiers from uncolored amplifiers by ear?

Add to that the fact the
recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.

Ignores the fact that even the coloration in speakers has been chosen by a
skilled designer to, in some sense, sound good - based on tuning and
auditioning. The frequency response and distortion in many tubed amplifiers,
particularly SETs, is a random happenstance because it is highly dependent
on the efficiency and the impedance curve of the speakers.

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 5, 1:21*pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Arny, please stay out of this.

You have nothing of use or interest to contribute to this particular
aspect of this particular discussion.

Most of us here enjoy outdated technology and make it part or all of a
hobby. Some of us even enjoy more current technology and make it part
or all of a hobby.

What Ian and I are discussing is not the specific technology but our
general expectations and our different points of departure on reaching
those expectations. Trust you to attempt to turn it into another black/
white debate complete with logic chopping and numerous fallacies. Go
away, please. It has been established in multiple venues that you
cannot contribute without near-infinite blather and pontification.
Here and now won't be any different.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Eeyore]

flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
flipper wrote:
Eeyore wrote:

In your case it would seem the resistor wattages were under-rated (a typical
audiophool trait) and are simply unsoldering themselves or burning up.

A clueless stab in the dark.

Clearly totally spot on.

'Clearly' not and just about anything is more likely than your
clueless stab in the dark. Over bias, leaky tube, intermittent bias
pot, cracked socket, parasitic oscillation, or Donald Duck.

Donald Duck ?

Graham

[Arny Krueger]

"Peter Wieck" wrote in message


On Dec 5, 1:21 pm, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Arny, please stay out of this.

Request denied.

You have nothing of use or interest to contribute to this
particular aspect of this particular discussion.

Translation:

Arny, you've completely destroyed so many of my bogus arguments that I'm
afraid to have you around.

I prefer to bob and weave without interferance from you.

Most of us here enjoy outdated technology and make it
part or all of a hobby.

I have no problem with that. You have reading comprehension problems, and
didn't get that?

Some of us even enjoy more
current technology and make it part or all of a hobby.

I have no problem with that, either. You have some severe perceptual
problem, and didn't get that either?


What Ian and I are discussing is not the specific
technology but our general expectations and our different
points of departure on reaching those expectations.

As if I haven't shown quite clearly that I understand that, too?

Trust you to attempt to turn it into another black/ white
debate complete with logic chopping and numerous
fallacies.

I leave that to you, Peter. I also leave it to you to act pompous and
foolish.

Go away, please. It has been established in
multiple venues that you cannot contribute without
near-infinite blather and pontification.

See what I said about acting pompous?

Here and now won't be any different.

That's because you don't seem to be able to just let things go, Peter.

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 5, 2:28*pm, Eeyore
wrote:

Donald Duck ?

Why not?

Technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic.

So, when explaining such technology, "Donald Duck" is as meaningful as
anything else.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:05 pm, Ian Bell wrote:

I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. A completely
transparent SS system (or any other type for that matter) is pointless.
The poor frequency response and distortion introduced by most speakers
makes it a waste of time for starters, not to mention the effect of the
room acoustics which in most home environments are atrocious. Add to
that the fact the recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.

Mpfffff.... so, since I am going to get knocked out in the fight
anyway, I should therefore lean into the punch so as to receive the
maximum damage? Why does that strike me as not only defeatist, but
just plain wrong? I may as well go out and search for a vintage Radio
Shack 5-watt SS amp and "Coustic Search" White Van speakers as I am
not going to get much better no matter what else I might do.


No. I did not say that. You would gain more of an improvement in overall
system transparency by obtaining better speakers and a full room
acoustic treatment. Only then would a transparent amp possibly make any
different.

A completely transparent system will give me the best possible chance
to achieve a result closest to the original signal. Once there, I can
add/delete/enhance aspects of whatever signal I am dealt so as to make
it sound as close to my preference as possible. Short of that, I am
left with mud over which I have no control at all.


A transparent amp in an average room with regular hi-fi speakers will
not achieve this.

Cheers

Ian
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Ian Bell" wrote in message

Eeyore wrote:
flipper wrote:

Eeyore wrote:
cipher wrote:

I dont like the SS sound.
Properly designed semiconductor amps have no 'SS
sound'.
Bull
True. Good SS amps are entirely transparent. Tubes are (typically)
coloured. Fine if you LIKE that colour but a bad choice
generally.

I am not sure that choice is actually involved.

Looks like we are heading for a spin session. How can the classic goal of
minimizing coloration be spun into what it is not in an attempt to assert
that an outdated technology is actually superior?

The source material is inevitably coloured.

However, that coloration is part and parcel of an artistic work.

Lets compare a recording to a painting.

Let's compare listening via .a amplifier with coloration to looking at
paintings through colored glasses.

So the argument then becomes, since the colors in paintings rarely if ever
precisely match the actual colors of the object being represented, in real
life looking at paintings through an arbitrarily-chosen set of colored
glasses all of the time (having it as the primary amplifier in your best
hifi system) is actually quite defensible.

Indeed, if a little color is OK (e.g. say a Dyna ST70) then using welder's
goggles (e.g. a SET amplifier) is even better.

Conventional wisdom is that minimizing coloration is a good thing, and if
additional coloration is desired, then it should of an
intelligently-designed kind, and it should be applied with taste and
discretion and to suit the desires of the listener.

Instead, tube amplifiers particularly the highly-colored ones exhibit a
different, more-or-less randomly selected form of coloration, every time you
hook them up to a different speaker. This is over and above the inherent
coloration of the speaker, which may actually be less.

If it is an old
recording it was recorded using tubes or old transistor
and transformer technology all of which adds its own colour.

Or if it is a new recording that was made using specifically-colored
microphones and then equalized electronically to suit the ears of some
artist or producer, then more color has been added.

The thing is that all of these forms of color were added intentionally. In
contrast to the random colorations that many tubed amplfiiers exhibit, which
arbitrarily varies with the impedance curve of the speaker they are hooked
up to, these colors are like artist's colors, chosen from a pallette, by
people who were part of the creative process.


If it is a modern recording it is certain to have
been 'processed' digitally which also adds its own
particular colour.

There is no reliable evidence that simply using digital recording of a
reasonably high caliber, causes any audible coloration at all. There have
been many attempts to obtain this kind of evidence, but it always turns out
to be highly elusive.

That is true. But there are very few such 'simple digital' recordings.


Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has
little effect.

Excluded middle argument. The usual goal of high fidelity is clear from the
meaning of the words high and fidelity. Note that the phrase is not "perfect
fidelity" as Ian seems to be suggesting, but rather "high fidelity".


So why have a completely transparent amp when the speakers and room are
so relatively poor. To obtain high fidelity you need to address all
aspects of the system not just the amp.

Cheers

Ian

[Peter Wieck]

On Dec 5, 4:52*pm, Ian Bell wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:05 pm, Ian Bell wrote:

I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. A completely
transparent SS system (or any other type for that matter) is pointless..
The poor frequency response and distortion introduced by most speakers
makes it a waste of time for starters, not to mention the effect of the
room acoustics which in most home environments are atrocious. Add to
that the fact the recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.

Mpfffff.... so, since I am going to get knocked out in the fight
anyway, I should therefore lean into the punch so as to receive the
maximum damage? Why does that strike me as not only defeatist, but
just plain wrong? I may as well go out and search for a vintage Radio
Shack 5-watt SS amp and "Coustic Search" White Van speakers as I am
not going to get much better no matter what else I might do.

No. I did not say that. You would gain more of an improvement in overall
system transparency by obtaining better speakers and a full room
acoustic treatment. Only then would a transparent amp possibly make any
different.

A completely transparent system will give me the best possible chance
to achieve a result closest to the original signal. Once there, I can
add/delete/enhance aspects of whatever signal I am dealt so as to make
it sound as close to my preference as possible. Short of that, I am
left with mud over which I have no control at all.

A transparent amp in an average room with regular hi-fi speakers will
not achieve this.

Cheers

Ian

Mpfffff.... I believe I suggested that a transparent "re-play chain" -
meaning each link - was the ideal. Not *just* the amp. And the that
choice of words abstracted from your first post was yours, not mine.
In your second post, you used "system" - again *NOT* just "amp".

Nor would I agree on the single link, either. Failures in transparency
are, in my experience, logarithmic, not linear. So strong efforts to
reduce multiplying effects of non-linear colorations are well
worthwhile. Again, uncontrolled input of colorations gives mud, not
music.

And as far as "full room acoustical treatment" is concerned - how
would a string quartet sound in that room? If it would sound just
fine, no further treatment is necessary. If it would sound wretched,
then treat until it would sound good. It is not a difficult concept to
understand even though it might be a bit more troublesome to enact.
But it has also been my experience that a room of reasonable
proportions and size without specific problems (such as standing waves
or a very unusual shape) furnished comfortably will be pretty good for
audio with careful speaker placement.

Ah, well... You have a standing invitation next time you are on this
side of the pond in the Philadelphia area.... we can try all sorts of
configurations in all sorts of rooms and see what works.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Bell"

I am not sure that choice is actually involved. The source material is
inevitably coloured. If it is an old recording it was recorded using tubes
or old transistor and transformer technology all of which adds its own
colour. If it is a modern recording it is certain to have been 'processed'
digitally which also adds its own particular colour.

Having a totally transparent replay chain therefore has little effect.


** So Ian simply does not believe in " hi-fi " - the basic idea of which
is that the equipment should not degrade or otherwise alter the audio
signals presented to it.

Maybe when he goes to visit an art gallery or watch movie, he wears his
favourite rose tinted glasses ??

Perhaps he has a whole bunch of different coloured tints and perspective
altering lenses too.

Wot a ******.



....... Phil

[Phil Allison]

"Ian Bell"

So why have a completely transparent amp when the speakers and room are so
relatively poor.


** Very accurate, low distortion speakers are readily available - but not
necessarily cheap.

Treating a listening room so it does very little harm to the sound is a
quite straightforward exercise and can be done fairly cheaply.

Transparent amplifiers are virtually a dime a dozen - choosing to NOT use
one is kinda insane.

Except, of course, if you simply do not believe in "hi-if" at all

- like this demented clown.



...... Phil

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 4:52 pm, Ian Bell wrote:
Peter Wieck wrote:
On Dec 5, 1:05 pm, Ian Bell wrote:
I understand what you are saying but I think you are wrong. A completely
transparent SS system (or any other type for that matter) is pointless.
The poor frequency response and distortion introduced by most speakers
makes it a waste of time for starters, not to mention the effect of the
room acoustics which in most home environments are atrocious. Add to
that the fact the recording is already coloured and there is even less
point.
Mpfffff.... so, since I am going to get knocked out in the fight
anyway, I should therefore lean into the punch so as to receive the
maximum damage? Why does that strike me as not only defeatist, but
just plain wrong? I may as well go out and search for a vintage Radio
Shack 5-watt SS amp and "Coustic Search" White Van speakers as I am
not going to get much better no matter what else I might do.
No. I did not say that. You would gain more of an improvement in overall
system transparency by obtaining better speakers and a full room
acoustic treatment. Only then would a transparent amp possibly make any
different.

A completely transparent system will give me the best possible chance
to achieve a result closest to the original signal. Once there, I can
add/delete/enhance aspects of whatever signal I am dealt so as to make
it sound as close to my preference as possible. Short of that, I am
left with mud over which I have no control at all.
A transparent amp in an average room with regular hi-fi speakers will
not achieve this.

Cheers

Ian

Mpfffff.... I believe I suggested that a transparent "re-play chain" -
meaning each link - was the ideal. Not *just* the amp. And the that
choice of words abstracted from your first post was yours, not mine.
In your second post, you used "system" - again *NOT* just "amp".


Well AFAICR the original post was just about a transparent SS amp. If
you want to include the entire chain including the room then I agree
with you. My point was a transparent amp with 'normal' speakers and room
is a waste of time. Practically no one makes any real affort on room
acoustics.

Nor would I agree on the single link, either. Failures in transparency
are, in my experience, logarithmic, not linear. So strong efforts to
reduce multiplying effects of non-linear colorations are well
worthwhile. Again, uncontrolled input of colorations gives mud, not
music.


Our experience clearly differs.

And as far as "full room acoustical treatment" is concerned - how
would a string quartet sound in that room? If it would sound just
fine, no further treatment is necessary. If it would sound wretched,
then treat until it would sound good. It is not a difficult concept to
understand even though it might be a bit more troublesome to enact.

Troublesome is indeed the word.

But it has also been my experience that a room of reasonable
proportions and size without specific problems (such as standing waves
or a very unusual shape) furnished comfortably will be pretty good for
audio with careful speaker placement.


Again our experience differs. You may obtain something you think is OK
but the chances are it has huge peaks and dips in its response. May
sound fine on some recordings but it will be terrible on others.

Ah, well... You have a standing invitation next time you are on this
side of the pond in the Philadelphia area.... we can try all sorts of
configurations in all sorts of rooms and see what works.


Thanks for that Peter. I may take you up on that. And if you ever reach
Blighty you are welcome to have a look round my humble studio
(acoustically treated but still with problems)

Cheers

Ian
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA