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#1
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Name that static
Hello o great gurus of audio.
I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. 2 - I do not think it is the mics peaking b/c the static looks the same on each channel. 3 - Here is the source for the recording: Oktava mk-012s (hyper) Presonus Firebox (XLR in, phantom power on, getting its power from the Firewire bus) iBook G4 (Cubase) 4 - The static was audible through the headphone monitor on the firebox 5 - The static begins slowly, and fades away in the same way about 15 minutes later. Please listen and let me know what you think. You can download a 1 minute sample of the file at: http://homepage.mac.com/egutin/FileSharing8.html Thanks a bunch. |
#2
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On 10 Jul 2005 19:27:57 -0700, "
wrote: Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. 2 - I do not think it is the mics peaking b/c the static looks the same on each channel. 3 - Here is the source for the recording: Oktava mk-012s (hyper) Presonus Firebox (XLR in, phantom power on, getting its power from the Firewire bus) iBook G4 (Cubase) 4 - The static was audible through the headphone monitor on the firebox 5 - The static begins slowly, and fades away in the same way about 15 minutes later. Please listen and let me know what you think. You can download a 1 minute sample of the file at: http://homepage.mac.com/egutin/FileSharing8.html I listened and can't tell anything offhand (other than it sounds as described), then I converted it to .wav and looked at it CE 2000, and I can see the 'ticks' but I wonder how much of what I see is the REAL waveform and how much might have been changed by the mp3 encode/decode process. It may help more to have an uncompressed .wav file of 5 or 10 seconds of the worst part, so we really 'see' as well as hear the condition. The noise/distortion is apparently modulated by the audio, especially by the bass, whatever that might mean. It's surely not something clipping or 'peaking' anywhere in the chain. Thanks a bunch. ----- http://www.mindspring.com/~benbradley |
#3
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Addendum - lowering the gain on the channels had no affect, except to
make the static quieter. |
#4
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" wrote:
Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. 2 - I do not think it is the mics peaking b/c the static looks the same on each channel. 3 - Here is the source for the recording: Oktava mk-012s (hyper) Presonus Firebox (XLR in, phantom power on, getting its power from the Firewire bus) iBook G4 (Cubase) 4 - The static was audible through the headphone monitor on the firebox 5 - The static begins slowly, and fades away in the same way about 15 minutes later. Please listen and let me know what you think. You can download a 1 minute sample of the file at: http://homepage.mac.com/egutin/FileSharing8.html Digital connection ? Yes. Sounds like classic sync problems. You don't get this with analogue ! ;-) Graham |
#5
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Sounds like classic sync problems. You don't get this with analogue
If that is the case, could sync problems only happen for 15 minutes out of, say, an hour and a half of audio? With no changes made to settings? - Eitan |
#6
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" wrote:
Sounds like classic sync problems. You don't get this with analogue If that is the case, could sync problems only happen for 15 minutes out of, say, an hour and a half of audio? With no changes made to settings? Conceivably - yes. Chances are that some setting was defective. The system might have finally locked up by default rather than intent. Without more info it's truly hard to say. Graham |
#7
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In article .com,
" wrote: Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. 2 - I do not think it is the mics peaking b/c the static looks the same on each channel. 3 - Here is the source for the recording: Oktava mk-012s (hyper) Presonus Firebox (XLR in, phantom power on, getting its power from the Firewire bus) iBook G4 (Cubase) 4 - The static was audible through the headphone monitor on the firebox 5 - The static begins slowly, and fades away in the same way about 15 minutes later. Please listen and let me know what you think. You can download a 1 minute sample of the file at: http://homepage.mac.com/egutin/FileSharing8.html Thanks a bunch. Zoom in pretty close and you can see the discontinuities in the waveform. I don't think they're an artifact of the mp3 conversion...it looks like you're dropping samples in a pretty serious way. Does the headphone monitor on the Firebox come before or after the recording application (Cubase)? If you're monitoring after going through Cubase, than I'd lean towards a software issue. If you're monitoring pre-Cubase, it's hardware. Your firebox may be broken! (that didn't come out right....) Jeff C. -- Anti-Spam email address in effect. My real email should be pretty obvious to an actual human being. |
#8
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wrote in message
oups.com Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. Sounds like electrical interference from a sparking motor, or something like it. |
#9
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:54:10 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: wrote in message roups.com Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. Sounds like electrical interference from a sparking motor, or something like it. No, this isn't interference. Interference would simply add itself to the signal. This is clearly multiplying with the signal in some non-linear fashion a bit like a ring modulator. Assuming this happened in the digital domain, I would imagine that the computer got very busy with something else for a while, and didn't have sufficient resources to devote to the audio. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#10
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:54:10 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Sounds like electrical interference from a sparking motor, or something like it. No, this isn't interference. Really? Interference would simply add itself to the signal. Thats what I hear, and that's what I see in detailed examination of the waves in Audition. This is clearly multiplying with the signal in some non-linear fashion a bit like a ring modulator. Not clear at all. I see a goodly number of little square waves of various amplitudes and durations added to the music. It is true that there is the appearance of some kind of modulation effect related to the music. See below. Assuming this happened in the digital domain, I would imagine that the computer got very busy with something else for a while, and didn't have sufficient resources to devote to the audio. I've experienced that many times and it sounds and looks different. For one thing, a busy computer drops data. I don't see evidence of data loss. If the noise is being modulated by the music, that doesn't happen with data loss in the computer doing the recording. The modulating signal will be something else, like a hard drive running or video being displayed. If I was going to make an alternative diagnosis, it would be a loose connection of some sort, possibly one that was in the sound field. |
#11
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:54:38 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 07:54:10 -0400, "Arny Krueger" wrote: Sounds like electrical interference from a sparking motor, or something like it. No, this isn't interference. Really? Interference would simply add itself to the signal. Thats what I hear, and that's what I see in detailed examination of the waves in Audition. This is clearly multiplying with the signal in some non-linear fashion a bit like a ring modulator. Not clear at all. I see a goodly number of little square waves of various amplitudes and durations added to the music. It is true that there is the appearance of some kind of modulation effect related to the music. See below. Assuming this happened in the digital domain, I would imagine that the computer got very busy with something else for a while, and didn't have sufficient resources to devote to the audio. I've experienced that many times and it sounds and looks different. For one thing, a busy computer drops data. I don't see evidence of data loss. If the noise is being modulated by the music, that doesn't happen with data loss in the computer doing the recording. The modulating signal will be something else, like a hard drive running or video being displayed. If I was going to make an alternative diagnosis, it would be a loose connection of some sort, possibly one that was in the sound field. Listen to the part around 38 to 43 seconds, and the multiplication will be very audible. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#12
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#13
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"Arny Krueger" wrote ...
"Don Pearce" wrote This is clearly multiplying with the signal in some non-linear fashion a bit like a ring modulator. Not clear at all. I see a goodly number of little square waves of various amplitudes and durations added to the music. It is true that there is the appearance of some kind of modulation effect related to the music. See below. Have we ever established how faithfully MP3 can reproduce this kind of aberrent waveform? Otherwise, using MP3 to do this kind of diagnosis seems questionable at best. I'd be much more comfortable looking at a few seconds of real WAV data. |
#14
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On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 06:13:05 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote: "Arny Krueger" wrote ... "Don Pearce" wrote This is clearly multiplying with the signal in some non-linear fashion a bit like a ring modulator. Not clear at all. I see a goodly number of little square waves of various amplitudes and durations added to the music. It is true that there is the appearance of some kind of modulation effect related to the music. See below. Have we ever established how faithfully MP3 can reproduce this kind of aberrent waveform? Otherwise, using MP3 to do this kind of diagnosis seems questionable at best. I'd be much more comfortable looking at a few seconds of real WAV data. I don't think that MP3 will mess up the waveform to the extent that is audible here, but in general terms I agree, wav would be better. d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#15
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I agree the static is definitely multiplicative, the static gets louder when the music is louder and softer when the music is softer. If the static were additive, the static would be constant regardless of the music. I have heard multiplicative static like that before from defective CDs that have very large error rates. It is difficult to guess what could cause that in your system but it is probably NOT external analog interference like a motor or cell phone. What could be causing bit errors in your system? Mark |
#16
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Don Pearce wrote:
Listen to the part around 38 to 43 seconds, and the multiplication will be very audible. Are you sure that's not a weird mp3 artifact? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#18
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Wow - lots of great input. It looks like I have some testing to do, and
some detective work as well. thanks everyone. - E ps - the regular spikes are not from the mp3 - they are present in the original WAV as well. |
#19
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wrote: Hello o great gurus of audio. I have a strange problem. I record live music in the NYC jam scene. I just used a new rig setup last night, and got the strangest problem. The show sounded great, but for 15 minutes I got horrible static. I think it sounds like digital static (as opposed to the mics peaking). Here is what I know: 1 - There were no changes in house levels throughout the show - this house only uses the PA for vocals, and the musicians barely touched their own levels all night. 2 - I do not think it is the mics peaking b/c the static looks the same on each channel. 3 - Here is the source for the recording: Oktava mk-012s (hyper) Presonus Firebox (XLR in, phantom power on, getting its power from the Firewire bus) iBook G4 (Cubase) 4 - The static was audible through the headphone monitor on the firebox 5 - The static begins slowly, and fades away in the same way about 15 minutes later. Please listen and let me know what you think. You can download a 1 minute sample of the file at: http://homepage.mac.com/egutin/FileSharing8.html Thanks a bunch. Sounds to me like it might be a power-related problem, i.e. there isn't enough power. Since the audio, particularly bass sounds seem to modulate the effect, it sounds like a switching power supply was struggling somewhere in the signal chain and thus spewing hash all over the audio. I've done gigs where the lights dim on each note from the bass... this is the switching supply/digital audio version of that. Just my .02 Karl Winkler Lectrosonics, Inc. http://www.lectrosonics.com |
#20
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Sounds like a dirty conection via the desk to your input....I have had
the problem before. Hope this helps. |
#21
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I'll bring up the power handling issue with the manufacturer - maybe it
really runs best off of external power, and not the firewire bus. However, steve brought up ice machine - there was one running at the bar probably 15 feet or so from the mics. If thats the culprit, It shouldnt come up too often, but I would still need a way to combat it. Again, thanks everyone. - E |
#22
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Pooh Bear wrote: " wrote: Sounds like classic sync problems. You don't get this with analogue If that is the case, could sync problems only happen for 15 minutes out of, say, an hour and a half of audio? With no changes made to settings? Conceivably - yes. Chances are that some setting was defective. The system might have finally locked up by default rather than intent. Without more info it's truly hard to say. Graham It does sound like a sync problem. I've heard artifacts like that when two devices working with each other are both set to internal clock. Peter |
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