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#1
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
Hello,
Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip, which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. I noticed the lowest LED input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically, indicating an increase in the noise floor. I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held solution. The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is there when I take the expander out. It's not a pro level of surface noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with something like a Millennia HV-3B. So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than whatever the SM7B appears to output. I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA. In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds are these days. Any ideas? |
#2
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
joe h wrote:
Hello, Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The output seems kind of low on the SM7B. This is no secret in its documentation, it is spec'd to require 60 dB gain to get average speech to ""0 dBm turf" and an example preamp is suggested. It's causing me to coax pretty high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip, which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. Can't comment, don't know the ISA 430. The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. It is taking it outside suggested use I noticed the lowest LED input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically, indicating an increase in the noise floor. For a guess: pulse noise. I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held solution. Wrong mic or build a handle for it. The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is there when I take the expander out. Wrong preamp then, not that you necessarily need a costly preamp. It's not a pro level of surface noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with something like a Millennia HV-3B. It is OK to use another preamp and a line input instead of using the mic pre in the mixer/channel strip. So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than whatever the SM7B appears to output. I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA. Sound quality, including "useful colouration" is a good parameter, output voltage in itself isn't. In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds are these days. Any ideas? A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right. Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#3
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On 9/25/2011 10:10 PM, Peter Larsen wrote:
joe h wrote: Hello, Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The output seems kind of low on the SM7B. This is no secret in its documentation, it is spec'd to require 60 dB gain to get average speech to ""0 dBm turf" and an example preamp is suggested. It's causing me to coax pretty high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip, which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. Can't comment, don't know the ISA 430. The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. It is taking it outside suggested use I noticed the lowest LED input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically, indicating an increase in the noise floor. For a guess: pulse noise. I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held solution. Wrong mic or build a handle for it. The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is there when I take the expander out. Wrong preamp then, not that you necessarily need a costly preamp. It's not a pro level of surface noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with something like a Millennia HV-3B. It is OK to use another preamp and a line input instead of using the mic pre in the mixer/channel strip. So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than whatever the SM7B appears to output. I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA. Sound quality, including "useful colouration" is a good parameter, output voltage in itself isn't. In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds are these days. Any ideas? A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right. If you can, try a Heil PR22. A friend has one, and it does a great job with handling noise. It's not the same sound as a PR40, but it's comparable in many ways to the SM7B. If you really have to have a higher output dynamic mic, take a look at the BLUE enCORE 200. It's a phantom-powered dynamic. Sound wise, it's probably in the SM58 class. (I've tried to get a demo, but I have not been successful. A friend has a 100, and that's what he reports.) |
#4
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
Thanks for all the insights.
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#5
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Sep 25, 9:10*pm, "Peter Larsen" wrote:
A couple of guys here like the Heil PR40 and there doesn't seem to be anyone disliking the RE20, but that one also is for stand mounted use. But if you got the SM7B for its sound, then you may want to get it to work right. The RE20, like the SM7B, ls a relatively low-output mic. You want something which actually sounds good, and is optimized for hand-held vocal work? Try a Shure KSM9. It'll cost you; it's worth it. Here's a stupid question, though: Are you sure the noise when you turn up the preamp is actually electronic noise coming from the preamp? It could be room noise, including infrasonic junk. Try this: make an XLR dummy plug with a 150 ohm metal film resistor soldered between pins 2 and 3 -- nothing else. Set up the mic-and-preamp combination the way you're using it now, with the gain way up and the noise appearing. Then, without changing anything on the preamp, unplug the mic and plug in the dummy plug. Is the noise still there? It really is preamp noise, like you're assuming. Is the noise gone? Then it's probably room noise, and another microphone probably won't get rid of it. Peace, Paul |
#6
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
Oh and...
The ISA 430 is specified at -128dBu equivalent input noise when set to +60dB of gain with a 150 ohm source impedance. That's actually very quiet performance. Again, I suggest the noise you're seeing is much more likely to be from the room. Can you record a couple of seconds of noise and post the result someplace? Peace, Paul |
#7
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
joe h:
I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held solution. Why hand-held? Do you need to walk around with the mic in your hand? Or is it rather lack of convenience with a stand-mounted mike? In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds are these days. Any ideas? Look at vocal mics for stage use. There are probably more dynamic, than condenser ones, but you can find both and all serious models have a good "handling noise" isolation/dampening. Does it have to be a condenser by any means? |
#8
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
joe h wrote:
Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip, which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. What kind of noise? Are you sure it's the preamp? How do you have the switches on the SM7 set? The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. I noticed the lowest LED input meter gets stronger by about a 1/2 of an LED light when I pick the mic up compared to having it rest on the table vertically, indicating an increase in the noise floor. I know the SM7B is supposed to be a stand-mounted mic, but I really want a hand held solution. You really can't do this sort of thing handheld very well. How will you turn the pages on the copy? I think you will find all of the standard VO mikes are going to have severe handling noise issues if you try and handhold them. If you absolutely HAVE to handhold, you could try an EV RE-50. This is a 635A omni with some additional shockmounting, and the fact that it has absolutely zero low end response also reduces the handling noise as well. However, it won't sound very big (although because it's an omni you can be careless about positioning, which is also important in a handheld). The expander on the 430 is great. It works very well and totally cleans up the background noise when there is no programmatic material. But I can't help but notice the background noise that is there when I take the expander out. It's not a pro level of surface noise. It's too much. If I didn't need all the gadgets, I'd go with something like a Millennia HV-3B. Why do you need all th gadgets anyway? And where is the noise coming from? Is it hiss from the preamp or is it actually room noise? So now I'm more interested in hotter output, handheld mics than whatever the SM7B appears to output. I could almost talk myself into hand-holding a TLM-103, because that thing outputs an amazing 23mv/PA. And you'll find the handling noise in the TLM-103 is as bad or worse than the SM-7. These mikes are not designed for handholding because people in the studio just don't do that. In more practical terms, I'm thinking maybe a Neumann KMS-104 or a neodymium dynamic. I'm not sure what the good high-output handhelds are these days. Any ideas? Most of the high grade handheld mikes are designed to have very narrow patterns, which is not what you want for most of this work. You could try the Neumann and see.... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
That's in interesting idea.
But unless I'm misunderstanding something (which is entirely possible), I think I have already "one-upped" your idea: I completely unplug the mic/xlr cable from the preamp, and the surface level noise is still there. Granted, the noise increase by a 1/2 LED on the meter, but there is still a steady one-LED background noise on the LED meter (one out of 11). If I engage the expander/gate, it goes away in steady (for obvious reasons). But if I disengage the expander/ gate the 1 LED is always lit based on the gain amounts required to get a -4/-2db signal from the SM7B into the digital card LED ladder based on my normal speaking voice volumes. I simply think this box has so many processing blocks to it that it doesn't like to have to provide a lot of super-clean straight wire with gain. It's so cool in so many ways, but there's nothing cool about too much hash in the noise floor. If I don't engage the expander, the standing noise floor is "beyond obvious" when there is no spoken word to mask the circumstance. I'm not going to go so far as to say the box is broken. It seems like it would be killer for drum gating and getting monster sounds out of things. But this low output SM7B is exposing a flaw I had not anticipated. Let's just say Millennia Media doesn't have to worry about this box overtaking the HV3 series in the clean gain category! |
#10
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
Great points, Mr. Dorsey.
I'm not enthralled by endless processing. In fact, I love the Millennia HV3. It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and- forget straight from capture to finished rendering. I'm thinking something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. I'm trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. Here's what I am trying to avoid: 1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed) 2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too much ssss and ch) 3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup) 4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an mmm or an nnn) I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. The levels stay the same from word to word. The high frequency/sibilance never gets too much or too little. The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken. Miscellaneous: I really don't think its the room. I've had other gear in here with no problems. I might have not communicated well. I'm not reading from a script. I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. I'm using the term "narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound output levels (at least for me it would). I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat and presence boost on. I'm pretty good at handholding studio condenser mics. It's not that practical because you want to use a windscreen to protect the expensive capsule element. But it's not that hard really. I've definitely done things where I hold the mic in one hand, and the pop filter in the other. Once your hand is holding the mic, unless you tap it for some strange reason, it's fine. Like for example, if I was shooting out two mics for a particular circumstance, it's easy to do a quick take with each without having to birdcage both of them on and off the stand. |
#11
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Sep 26, 9:45*pm, joe h wrote:
Great points, Mr. Dorsey. I'm not enthralled by endless processing. *In fact, I love the Millennia HV3. *It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and- forget straight from capture to finished rendering. *I'm thinking something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. *I'm trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. *Here's what I am trying to avoid: 1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed) 2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too much ssss and ch) 3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup) 4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an mmm or an nnn) I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. *The levels stay the same from word to word. *The high frequency/sibilance never gets too much or too little. *The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken. Miscellaneous: I really don't think its the room. *I've had other gear in here with no problems. I might have not communicated well. *I'm not reading from a script. I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. *I'm using the term "narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound output levels (at least for me it would). I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat and presence boost on. If you're having sibilance problems, turning on the presence boost is not a good idea. Go read what the guy in the other thread says about proximity effect. The SM7B has loads of it (unlike, say, the E-V RE20). Post a couple-second clip of the noise you're getting someplace so we can see what it looks like. Peace, Paul |
#12
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
"joe h" wrote in message
... Great points, Mr. Dorsey. I'm not enthralled by endless processing. In fact, I love the Millennia HV3. It's more like I need the end result to have a set-and- forget straight from capture to finished rendering. I'm thinking something that splits the audio bandwidth into two or more bands. I'm trying to avoid things rather than seek things out. Here's what I am trying to avoid: 1) the levels being too jumpy (want it compressed without squashed) 2) sibilance (my singing voice is fine, but my speaking voice has too much ssss and ch) I respond to your "too much ssss...." description above. You can train yourself to minimize that problem without too much effort. One session with a speech therapist might do it, show you what's happening and how to modify it as you wish. Then a bit of practice. I know from experience. 3) digital overs (need a no-worry set and forget setup) 4) frequency build ups (don't want boomy frequencies. currently the Focusrite seems to add a lot of bass build up when my voice is on an mmm or an nnn) Are you sure its the Focusrite? Sounds like the pre may just be delivering what it gets from your voice and what the mic, including your mic technique, is giving it for better or for ill. You can get more level out of an SM7B by really close micing it. I mean lips on the foam almost. Its particular brand of proximity bass boost is what makes the mic appealing to many people. However, some voices are not helped by the microphone. The bass boost and mid-range presence setting on the mic can be downright troublesome for some voices. I like the mic for me. I've always felt there was a sweet spot of distance and off axis for each voice. Of course, that also means its not the mic to use if the performer moves around a lot. I'm looking for substantial amounts of sameness. The levels stay the same from word to word. The high frequency/sibilance never gets too much or too little. The frequency spectrum doesn't have ranges of frequency that suddenly jump out depending upon the word being spoken. Where you hear that happening now, is it just an amplitude thing that can be controlled with a little compression? Miscellaneous: I really don't think its the room. I've had other gear in here with no problems. I might have not communicated well. I'm not reading from a script. I'm talking extemporaneously in a podcast setting. I'm using the term "narration" to indicate a low-to-mid level spoken word setting, rather than a singing setting which would typically have higher voice sound output levels (at least for me it would). I've set the SM7B switches to factory default (bass rolloff and presence both engaged) as well as flat on both, and also bass at flat and presence boost on. I'm pretty good at handholding studio condenser mics. It's not that practical because you want to use a windscreen to protect the expensive capsule element. But it's not that hard really. I've definitely done things where I hold the mic in one hand, and the pop filter in the other. Once your hand is holding the mic, unless you tap it for some strange reason, it's fine. Like for example, if I was shooting out two mics for a particular circumstance, it's easy to do a quick take with each without having to birdcage both of them on and off the stand. I don't know your equipment, but I found that I couldn't use an SM7 into a Mackie 1202 VLZ. Had to crank up the trims too much, right to the edge of that horrible noise shelf that hammers in between 3 and 4 o'clock. ;-) Steve King |
#13
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Sep 26, 9:27*pm, joe h wrote:
That's in interesting idea. But unless I'm misunderstanding something (which is entirely possible), I think I have already "one-upped" your idea: I completely unplug the mic/xlr cable from the preamp, and the surface level noise is still there. *Granted, the noise increase by a 1/2 LED on the meter, but there is still a steady one-LED background noise on the LED meter (one out of 11). * Not at all the same thing, and not an appropriate test. With the cable unplugged the preamp is seeing a source impedance of 13.6k (the total of the two phantom-power resistors -- I think this is a transformer- coupled circuit?). Since mic preamp noise performance is almost always a function of the source impedance, you'll get significantly higher noise with nothing plugged into the input than you would with an appropriate impedance like 150 ohms. Try the experiment again with the 150 ohm dummy plug. Peace, Paul |
#14
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:16:30 -0400, joe h wrote
(in article ): Hello, Right now I have a Shure SM7B going into a Focusrite ISA 430. The output seems kind of low on the SM7B. It's causing me to coax pretty high amounts of gain from the various stages of the channel strip, which is causing some background standing noise in the ISA 430. The SM7B is also susceptible to hand-held noise. You're hand holding an SM7B to record? You should be getting OK level from 2-3 inches away from the SM7B. It's an US Radio industry standard mic. Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#15
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
That's interesting. I like private lessons.
When I sing it's not a problem. Because the consonant levels stay about the same as speaking, but the tonal part of my voice is way louder when I sing (my best operating loudness is somewhere between Sam Cooke and Stevie Wonder). So the sibilance isn't a problem when I sing, because it's proportionally less. But close micing me speaking in my normal, relatively quiet speaking voice? Yeah...um, about those speech lessons! |
#16
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
Thanks for the clarification. Definitely a massive transformer
inside. And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. A lot of rectangular IC's. And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. And the capacitors looked pretty big. And a whole lot of bundled wires with plastic connectors going from one place to another. I don't even know how anybody can understand all of that stuff! It's pretty hectic in there. It makes you proud to be a human being. Some people are just ridiculously smart. |
#17
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Sep 27, 5:49*pm, joe h wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. *Definitely a massive transformer inside. *And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. *A lot of rectangular IC's. *And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. *And the capacitors looked pretty big. *And a whole lot of bundled wires with plastic connectors going from one place to another. *I don't even know how anybody can understand all of that stuff! *It's pretty hectic in there. *It makes you proud to be a human being. *Some people are just ridiculously smart. It's not really all that hard. You just learn a few components do (resistors, capacitors, transformers, opamps, tubes, transistors, FETs and a couple more), learn a few basic principles (Ohm's Law, how voltage dividers work, how 1st order filters work, a couple more) and you learn how to follow the signal from one end of the circuit to another. It's a lot easier than some stuff I've muddled around with, like organic chemistry. Peace, Paul |
#18
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 18:49:32 -0400, joe h wrote
(in article ): Thanks for the clarification. Definitely a massive transformer inside. And a dizzying array of carefully laid out circuit components on two PCB boards (the smaller one floats above the larger one, which seems to occupy the entire floor of the chassis. A lot of rectangular IC's. And a smaller Lundahl component in there as well. And the capacitors looked pretty big. And a whole lot of bundled wires with plastic connectors going from one place to another. I don't even know how anybody can understand all of that stuff! It's pretty hectic in there. It makes you proud to be a human being. Some people are just ridiculously smart. Um, here's me... http://web.mac.com/tyreeford/Site/Learn_Voiceover.html Regards, Ty Ford --Audio Equipment Reviews Audio Production Services Acting and Voiceover Demos http://www.tyford.com Guitar player?:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWaPRHMGhGA |
#19
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
joe h wrote:
That's interesting. I like private lessons. When I sing it's not a problem. Because the consonant levels stay about the same as speaking, but the tonal part of my voice is way louder when I sing (my best operating loudness is somewhere between Sam Cooke and Stevie Wonder). So the sibilance isn't a problem when I sing, because it's proportionally less. But close micing me speaking in my normal, relatively quiet speaking voice? Yeah...um, about those speech lessons! Don't speak, speak up. Go ""where you are when singing"", but speak up instead so that you turn your vox formants on and project so that your voice "carries". I didn't say "sing unsung", I said speak up! Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#20
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Which mic to get for "hand held" narration?
On Wed 2011-Sep-28 12:26, Peter Larsen writes:
" Don't speak, speak up. Go ""where you are when singing"", but speak " up instead so that you turn your vox formants on and project so " that your voice "carries". I didn't say "sing unsung", I said speak " up! PEter's right on this one JOe. YOu shouldn't have to eat the mic if you're doing it right. LIsten to voice talent, including your local announcers. They speak up, which enables you to get the microphone a reasonable distance away and still capture adequate level. Project as you would when singing. Regards, Richard .... Remote audio in the southland: See www.gatasound.com -- | Remove .my.foot for email | via Waldo's Place USA Fidonet-Internet Gateway Site | Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own. |
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