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Review: Audio Power Amplifier Handbook, Self
Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible
I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in all aspects of this amplifier topology. He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers. |
#2
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"Paul" wrote in message
om Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. Agreed. Either power output or source impedance are better predictors of the sound quality of modern power amps. |
#3
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who needs it?
transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes DUH! "Paul" wrote in message om... Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in all aspects of this amplifier topology. He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers. |
#4
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:35:10 -0500, "fire bottles"
wrote: who needs it? transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes DUH! And where exactly do you find any sources of audio that haven't been through any transistors? Still playing your 78s perhaps? d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#5
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"fire bottles" wrote in message
who needs it? Anybody in the mainstream of audio who is seriously into power amps. transistors suck for audio as does all solid state. Here's a challenge. Provide us with an example of audio that was produced and widely distributed in the last 20 years that did not pass through at least one piece of solid state audio gear. the best audio is from tubes That's why just about everybody but a few noisy luddites stopped using them. |
#6
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"Don Pearce" wrote in message
And where exactly do you find any sources of audio that haven't been through any transistors? Still playing your 78s perhaps? I suspect that most recordings made through the mid-60s were pretty much free of contact with solid state audio devices. That includes a lot of LPs that are probably still kicking around personal collections and thrift stores. |
#7
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On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:40:14 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Don Pearce" wrote in message And where exactly do you find any sources of audio that haven't been through any transistors? Still playing your 78s perhaps? I suspect that most recordings made through the mid-60s were pretty much free of contact with solid state audio devices. That includes a lot of LPs that are probably still kicking around personal collections and thrift stores. Wires, resistors, switches, capacitors, inductors - all solid state. It is possible, of course to make electron or ion state equivalents for most of them, but I'm not sure that even a valvophile would want to try. I bet the sound would be heaps better if they did, though... d Pearce Consulting http://www.pearce.uk.com |
#8
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fire bottles wrote: who needs it? transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes Idiot deaf person ! Graham |
#9
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"Pooh Bear" wrote in message ... transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes Idiot deaf person ! I have never seen a valve hearing aid, although I think some were made in the forties or fifties. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to carry one of those! Yes he's an idiot, but welcome to his opinion. TonyP. |
#10
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Paul wrote:
Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible snip He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS,...... and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. Doug Self appears to be a self ( lol ) opiniated self aggrandised bigot. The best THD figures I've ever achieved from an amplifier was 0.0008% ( measured - AP residual was 0.0006% ) @ 350W into 8 ohms @ 1 kHz. -102dB SINAD if you prefer. It was a MOSFET amplifier ! Bipolars don't have much of a chance of even coming close. So - let THD be the yardstick ! I don't care if it's subjective that MOSFETs provide excellent performance - not least a relative absence of odd-order distortion products. Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard. Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous sound. Graham |
#11
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Pooh Bear said:
Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard. Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous sound. "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers. -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#12
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 17:46:07 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote: Pooh Bear said: Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard. Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous sound. "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers. Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good enough and have the budget for top class transformers. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#13
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Stewart Pinkerton said:
"Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO. I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers. Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good enough and have the budget for top class transformers. You're so cute when you're sober :-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#14
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Sander deWaal wrote: Pooh Bear said: Oh, that amp sounded *stunning* btw. As transparent as I've ever heard. Has to do comparative listening tests at night to minimise extraneous sound. "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers. They were indeed Hitachi devices. Quite a few of them in fact. Graham |
#15
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 13:54:03 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote: Pukey said: "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Propaganda about 'borg propaganda, Pukey? Such a challenge is a guided snot-missile that has nothing to do with reality. You would know that if you weren't still trying to spoon out your own liver and eat it for dinner. Gorge, you wouldn't recognise reality if you fell over it on the street. But we knew that already.................... -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#16
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On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:56:05 +0100, Sander deWaal
wrote: Stewart Pinkerton said: "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO. Yes, but since your opinion is as valuable as a Turkish Lira, we won't worry too much about it............... I already knew for years that MOSFETs, and especially the Hitachi types, are excellent for use in audio amplifiers. Sure, as are bipolar transistors, and even valves if you're good enough and have the budget for top class transformers. You're so cute when you're sober :-) I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#17
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#18
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Stewart Drinkerton said:
Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Graham's claim wasn't that extraordinary IMO. Yes, but since your opinion is as valuable as a Turkish Lira, we won't worry too much about it............... Just wait a few years, they'll use Euros by then :-) You're so cute when you're sober :-) I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) Next time you ask, leave the Aston Martin keys in the drawer. :-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#19
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"fire bottles" wrote in message ... who needs it? transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes DUH! It's silly to argue technology like this. Any technology is only as good as the engineer that implements it. I've heard great audio from TUBEs, MOSFETs and BJTs. |
#20
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Pooh Bear wrote in message ...
fire bottles wrote: who needs it? transistors suck for audio as does all solid state the best audio is from tubes Idiot deaf person ! Graham Ha! Ha! You fed the troll! |
#21
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#22
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "TonyP" wrote in message I have never seen a valve hearing aid, although I think some were made in the forties or fifties. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to carry one of those! There definately were tubed hearing aids. http://www.cs.uu.nl/~gerard/RadioCor...ts/BlaOmni.htm Note the use of subminiature wire-base tubes. http://www.lhh.org/archives/hamuseum.htm http://www.fishbeinhearingaids.com/h...id_history.htm http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonoha.htm http://dept.kent.edu/hearingaidmuseum/development.html http://www.hearingcenteronline.com/museum.shtml http://www.ccent.com/PHS/history.html http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research...k/otherproject s/2000/cochlear_00/lizotte/electricaids.html http://www.uwm.edu/~bobtreat/messages/30.shtml Impressive search you have done there Arny, there are an awful lot of people who would say valves are not better in that application though :-) TonyP. |
#23
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"TonyP" wrote in message
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ... "TonyP" wrote in message I have never seen a valve hearing aid, although I think some were made in the forties or fifties. I bet he's glad he doesn't have to carry one of those! There definately were tubed hearing aids. http://www.cs.uu.nl/~gerard/RadioCor...ts/BlaOmni.htm Note the use of subminiature wire-base tubes. http://www.lhh.org/archives/hamuseum.htm http://www.fishbeinhearingaids.com/h...id_history.htm http://www.roger-russell.com/sonopg/sonoha.htm http://dept.kent.edu/hearingaidmuseum/development.html http://www.hearingcenteronline.com/museum.shtml http://www.ccent.com/PHS/history.html http://www.bae.ncsu.edu/bae/research...k/otherproject s/2000/cochlear_00/lizotte/electricaids.html http://www.uwm.edu/~bobtreat/messages/30.shtml Impressive search you have done there Arny, there are an awful lot of people who would say valves are not better in that application though :-) No doubt. Those were definately the dark ages of assistance for the hearing-impaired. Other than guitar amps and the like, its hard to imagine a valid reason to struggle with the well-known limitations of tubes in modern audio systems. |
#24
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"Detector195" wrote in message
om Does this bible include IC power amps? I doubt it. There's not a lot of technology in hooking up a modern chip amp. Self's writings are typically about refined technology. Below 100 Watts, is there any reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? As Pinkie points out, the chip amps are not necessarily the best solution for low impedance loads. If you are impressed by THD numbers with lots of leading zeroes, chip amps rate only mediocre. If you look at what people are actually selling for after-market car audio, other than very low-powered stuff, you still see a lot of discrete transistor designs at power levels that look on paper like they are well-covered by these chips. OTOH, chip amps dominate OEM car audio which is genearlly limited to amps running off rail voltages limited by car batteries and charging systems. If you lift the covers on mid-fi receivers, you may see a lot of power chips, but in many cases they turn out to be only the output devices for the power amp sections. The MOSFET designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge mode seems like the way to go. They would seem to only go so far. They may turn out to be more costly than discrete amps built in places where labor is still cheap. |
#25
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"Paul Dormer" wrote in message
"Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : "Sander deWaal" wrote in message m "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, the purported quote has only been uttered by one Sander DeWaal, according to google. I've never said it myself. S Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Exactly, and if the comparison involved one the therminonic audible distortion and noise generators that DeWall wants to stuff down all of our throats as having superior reproduction of music, there would be IMO no need for a DBT. Take music, add audible noise, add audible distortion, and why wouldn't there be an audible difference? That argument has been debunked a gazillion times. Since the purported argument is a fabrication of the tortured mind of Sander deWall, I've got no problems with that sort of characterization. Even your mentor Jim Johnston never subscribed to the idea that consumers are compelled to gouge out their visual organs. Nor have I. But deWall's mentor George Middius has suggested that be the case. |
#26
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"Arny Krueger" said:
"Paul Dormer" wrote in message "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : "Sander deWaal" wrote in message om "Prove it via a DBT/ABX test". (Standard Arny Krueger non-answer when someone he disagrees with states his subjective opinion on amplifier sound). Actually, the purported quote has only been uttered by one Sander DeWaal, according to google. I've never said it myself. S Actually, just a standard reality check for *anyone* making extraordinary claims. Exactly, and if the comparison involved one the therminonic audible distortion and noise generators that DeWall wants to stuff down all of our throats as having superior reproduction of music, there would be IMO no need for a DBT. Take music, add audible noise, add audible distortion, and why wouldn't there be an audible difference? That argument has been debunked a gazillion times. Since the purported argument is a fabrication of the tortured mind of Sander deWall, I've got no problems with that sort of characterization. Even your mentor Jim Johnston never subscribed to the idea that consumers are compelled to gouge out their visual organs. Nor have I. But deWall's mentor George Middius has suggested that be the case. Who's this DeWall guy you're talking about? ;-) -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#28
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On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 16:57:41 +0000, Paul Dormer
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute? Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#29
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear
wrote: Detector195 wrote: (Paul) wrote in message . com... Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in all aspects of this amplifier topology. He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers. Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge mode seems like the way to go. The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller capacitance effects in the drivers. Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial unit, however. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#30
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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message the best audio is from tubes That's why just about everybody but a few noisy luddites stopped using them. Recorded music is just crap. Live or nothing ! geoff |
#31
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"Detector195" wrote in message Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge mode seems like the way to go. Seems to be pretty standard in most of the active speakers made in teh last ten years, for tweeters. geoff |
#32
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Stewart Pinkerton said:
The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller capacitance effects in the drivers. Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial unit, however. Why not? Most NADs using soft clipping have multiple supply rails. And you can't accuse NAD for being expensive....... -- Sander de Waal " SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. " |
#33
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Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear wrote: Detector195 wrote: (Paul) wrote in message . com... Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in all aspects of this amplifier topology. He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers. Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge mode seems like the way to go. The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller capacitance effects in the drivers. Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial unit, however. My designs using this method have gone into production in the pro-audio sector. It just involves a few more small gauge turns on the power TX, a small bridge and some small caps. Yes, it costs extra but it's the only sensible way to drive mosfets. Look at it like this - you get more watts out for the same main supply rail voltage way more economically than increasing the main rails. Total cost / watt is probably actually lower. Less dissipation in the output devices too. I've used the technique for bipolar designs as well. Graham |
#34
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute? Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-) Me too! At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-) OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#35
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:33:26 +0000, Pooh Bear
wrote: Stewart Pinkerton wrote: On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 00:18:31 +0000, Pooh Bear wrote: Detector195 wrote: (Paul) wrote in message . com... Bipolar Transistor Power Amplifier Bible I can't imagine a better book about push-pull, audio bipolar power amplifiers. Self covers virtually every possible configuration with circuits, notes, simulations and measurements. This book includes an excellent chapter on power, heat and reliability based on many years of design , manufacturing and field service. He is truly an expert in all aspects of this amplifier topology. He doesn't hide his disdain for MOSFETS, single-ended amplifiers and other "subjectivist" high-end concerns. Contrary to the findings of many others in this field, Self finds Total Harmonic Distortion the only measurement of amplifier quality that matters. He isn't convincing to this reviewer. A "must have" book for anyone designing audio power amplifiers. Does this bible include IC power amps? Below 100 Watts, is there any reason to do it with discrete transistors these days? The MOSFET designs I have looked at all required relatively high power supply voltages, i.e. they were inefficient. A pair of LM3886's in bridge mode seems like the way to go. The Mosfet designs simply need a decent drive voltage for their enhancement mode output devices. This can be done by running the previous voltage gain stage off a slightly higher voltage than the mail rails at mere milliamps. It has other benefits too - such as avoiding saturating the drivers and results in lower Miller capacitance effects in the drivers. Indeed so, and I recall designing just such an amplifier in the late '70s. Worked pretty well, and had less than 0.1% IMD up to 90kHz. The multiple rails would probably prove too expensive for a commercial unit, however. My designs using this method have gone into production in the pro-audio sector. It just involves a few more small gauge turns on the power TX, a small bridge and some small caps. Good point, that seems an excellent cost-effective solution. -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
#36
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"Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message
On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute? Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-) Me too! At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-) OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-) About as close to owning a DB9 that Dormer will ever get is a serial port. |
#37
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On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 18:18:00 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" wrote in message On Tue, 16 Nov 2004 20:10:45 +0000, Paul Dormer wrote: "Stewart Pinkerton" emitted : I'm always cute, so the girls tell me :-) That's highly implausible. Since when was Rab C Nesbitt cute? Never, but I'm much more Sean Connery............. :-) Me too! At least.. I'm hankering after a DB9.. :-) OK, I take back every bad thing I may ever have said about you. Anyone who loves the DB9 can't be all bad! :-) About as close to owning a DB9 that Dormer will ever get is a serial port. LOL - good lateral thinking! :-) -- Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering |
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