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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

eMedia was kind enough to send the current version of "Piano for Dummies" at
no charge (once I surrendered the version I already owned). This fixed the
problems. The program can now play the keyboard.

The keyboard can also be set to play through the computer, but there's a
noticeable delay (which you're warned about). The MIDI interface must present
an incredible amount of overhead.

Am I unreasonable in saying that MIDI doesn't always work the way you think it
"ought" to? This is an issue that most documentation (on any subject)
generally fails to address.

Again, thanks to those who responded to my initial request for help.

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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

On 9/20/2014 9:03 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
The keyboard can also be set to play through the computer, but there's a
noticeable delay (which you're warned about). The MIDI interface must
present an incredible amount of overhead.

Am I unreasonable in saying that MIDI doesn't always work the way you
think it "ought" to? This is an issue that most documentation (on any
subject) generally fails to address.


Good that you got something that works. I don't know what you consider a
"noticeable" delay, but unless you're pounding two-handed chords, the
MIDI delay shouldn't be any greater than about 10 milliseconds. However,
what you may be experiencing is the amount of time it takes the computer
to play the sample. This can be considerable on a slow computer or with
a program that isn't designed for real time playing.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

William Sommerwerck wrote:

eMedia was kind enough to send the current version of "Piano for Dummies" at
no charge (once I surrendered the version I already owned). This fixed the
problems. The program can now play the keyboard.

The keyboard can also be set to play through the computer, but there's a
noticeable delay (which you're warned about). The MIDI interface must present
an incredible amount of overhead.

Am I unreasonable in saying that MIDI doesn't always work the way you think it
"ought" to? This is an issue that most documentation (on any subject)
generally fails to address.

Again, thanks to those who responded to my initial request for help.


I'm not sure that your promblems had anything to do with MIDI. I think
they arose from a praticular combo of OS and driver(s) and app version,
etc.

The Musicians Guide to MIDI
Christian Braut
ISBN: 0-7821-1285-4

When Windows users complain about a lack of "intuitiveness" in anything
else, I chuckle.

MIDI works exactly as you'd expect when you know enough to set up a
system. Each system might require something pretty specfic, as if your
case.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"hank alrich" wrote in message ...

I'm not sure that your promblems had anything to do with MIDI.
I think they arose from a praticular combo of OS and driver(s)
and app version, etc.


As //only// the app changed, you're probably right.


When Windows users complain about a lack of "intuitiveness"
in anything else, I chuckle.


Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS, is not a closed system. It's not
surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least you have a
computer that can be upgraded, and a wider selection of software.

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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

I don't know what you consider a noticeable" delay, but unless
you're pounding two-handed chords, the MIDI delay shouldn't
be any greater than about 10 milliseconds.


It's plainly noticeable -- about 1/10 of a second.

However, what you may be experiencing is the amount of time it takes
the computer to play the sample. This can be considerable on a slow
computer or with a program that isn't designed for real time playing.


As a teaching tool, the program is presumably designed for real-time playing.
And the computer has an i7 3770K processor that runs at 3.5GHz.

As I said, the program specifically warns that playing the keyboard through
the computer might produce an audible delay. Whether this is inherent in MIDI,
or is the result of poor programming, I don't know.



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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

William Sommerwerck wrote:

Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS, is not a closed system. It's not
surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least you have a
computer that can be upgraded, and a wider selection of software.


It's not?

Even with OSX, I can look inside the kernel and I can see what applications
are doing with tools like ptrace. With Windows... about all you can do is
swap things out until it gets better because you have no actual view into
what the OS is really doing under the hood.

Hell, it took nearly a decade for people to reverse-engineer NTFS to the
point where anyone outside of Microsoft can really say they understand it.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Mike Rivers[_2_] Mike Rivers[_2_] is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

On 9/20/2014 1:37 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
As I said, the program specifically warns that playing the keyboard
through the computer might produce an audible delay. Whether this is
inherent in MIDI, or is the result of poor programming, I don't know.


My vote goes for poor programming. Since they mentioned it, they're
aware of it.


--
For a good time, visit http://mikeriversaudio.wordpress.com
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Sean Conolly Sean Conolly is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure that your promblems had anything to do with MIDI.
I think they arose from a praticular combo of OS and driver(s)
and app version, etc.


As //only// the app changed, you're probably right.


When Windows users complain about a lack of "intuitiveness"
in anything else, I chuckle.


Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS, is not a closed system. It's
not surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least you have
a computer that can be upgraded, and a wider selection of software.


It cuts both ways. There's a wider range of software because MS provides
well documented interfaces that the software can use, such as handling MIDI
and audio events, but the software is then tied to the performance of the OS
implementation. Good strategy for reaching a big market, but not optimised
for specific engineering requirements like low latency.

For example, I use ASIO for all my audio because it works well, and the
drivers support Win MME so other apps (media player) can use it. If I
reverse it and have the DAW use the Windows MME drivers then the performance
is predictably horrible. The cost is that I'm restricted to apps that use
ASIO, but that includes pretty much everything that is intended for serious
work.

Sean


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William Sommerwerck William Sommerwerck is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message ...
William Sommerwerck wrote:

Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS, is not a closed system.
It's not surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least
you have a computer that can be upgraded, and a wider selection of
software.


It's not [a closed system]?
Even with OSX, I can look inside the kernel and I can see what applications
are doing with tools like ptrace. With Windows... about all you can do is
swap things out until it gets better because you have no actual view into
what the OS is really doing under the hood.


I'm looking at it from a consumer's point of view. The Apple system is closed
and not very flexible. If you're happy with that, fine. I am not.

I have been known to run Process Explorer (a free app) to see if something is
not behaving properly or doesn't belong there in the first place.

Bear in mind that whatever goodwill I had for Apple evaporated when the
company started lying through its teeth about its computers and operating
systems.

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Les Cargill[_4_] Les Cargill[_4_] is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

William Sommerwerck wrote:
eMedia was kind enough to send the current version of "Piano for
Dummies" at no charge (once I surrendered the version I already owned).
This fixed the problems. The program can now play the keyboard.

The keyboard can also be set to play through the computer, but there's a
noticeable delay (which you're warned about). The MIDI interface must
present an incredible amount of overhead.


I doubt it's much overhead at all. After all, every MIDI engine ( an
Alesis QSR is a MIDI engine ) in the world works the same way. I
do not recall anyone using MIDI on a PC in say, 1995 trying to do this.
You bought a keyboard or engine for that purpose. MIDI playback was
a lot surrounding game play.

It's all the complexity of a serial port; it "should" Just Work.

I know there's a thing called BioXpander that claims it'll do live VSTi.
Since i have a keyboard, I don't need it so I've never
checked it out.

Am I unreasonable in saying that MIDI doesn't always work the way you
think it "ought" to? This is an issue that most documentation (on any
subject) generally fails to address.


There is comp.music.midi and alt.music.midi.

Again, thanks to those who responded to my initial request for help.


--
Les Cargill


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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"Mike Rivers" skrev i en meddelelse
...

On 9/20/2014 1:37 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:


As I said, the program specifically warns that playing the keyboard
through the computer might produce an audible delay. Whether this is
inherent in MIDI, or is the result of poor programming, I don't know.


My vote goes for poor programming. Since they mentioned it, they're aware
of it.


Software synth?

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

On 21/09/2014 3:59 AM, Mike Rivers wrote:
On 9/20/2014 1:37 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
As I said, the program specifically warns that playing the keyboard
through the computer might produce an audible delay. Whether this is
inherent in MIDI, or is the result of poor programming, I don't know.


My vote goes for poor programming.


Mine too.


Since they mentioned it, they're
aware of it.


And aren't willing to fix it, lest that reduce their profits.

Trevor.


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

On 21/09/2014 4:28 AM, Sean Conolly wrote:
"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
...
"hank alrich" wrote in message
...

I'm not sure that your promblems had anything to do with MIDI.
I think they arose from a praticular combo of OS and driver(s)
and app version, etc.


As //only// the app changed, you're probably right.


When Windows users complain about a lack of "intuitiveness"
in anything else, I chuckle.


Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS, is not a closed system. It's
not surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least you have
a computer that can be upgraded, and a wider selection of software.


It cuts both ways. There's a wider range of software because MS provides
well documented interfaces that the software can use, such as handling MIDI
and audio events, but the software is then tied to the performance of the OS
implementation. Good strategy for reaching a big market, but not optimised
for specific engineering requirements like low latency.

For example, I use ASIO for all my audio because it works well, and the
drivers support Win MME so other apps (media player) can use it. If I
reverse it and have the DAW use the Windows MME drivers then the performance
is predictably horrible. The cost is that I'm restricted to apps that use
ASIO, but that includes pretty much everything that is intended for serious
work.


Right, does MME go back to Win95 or Win3.0? And it hasn't been the
primary sound interface since WinXP so using it for "serious work" would
be just plain DUMB!!!

Trevor.




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Bill[_20_] Bill[_20_] is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

In message , Trevor
writes
On 21/09/2014 4:28 AM, Sean Conolly wrote

For example, I use ASIO for all my audio because it works well, and the
drivers support Win MME so other apps (media player) can use it. If I
reverse it and have the DAW use the Windows MME drivers then the performance
is predictably horrible. The cost is that I'm restricted to apps that use
ASIO, but that includes pretty much everything that is intended for serious
work.


Right, does MME go back to Win95 or Win3.0? And it hasn't been the
primary sound interface since WinXP so using it for "serious work"
would be just plain DUMB!!!

Yesterday, because my son is moving to a new house, I went up into the
attic to liberate some dining chairs. To get to them, I had to move a
huge pile of old tapes and noticed a couple that had been recorded
alongside the Win3.1 laptop. The laptop, running Cool Edit, had actually
been used, rather than the tapes, to turn around live clips during the
events. I suppose that must have been using MME.

I always thought that it's all about using what you have in a situation
and whether it is "good enough". A lot of audio now on radio wouldn't
pass my goodenough test. I listen to WSM online quite a bit and they
always seem to have the levels seriously wrong for much of their on the
hour national news. I suppose they are self-opping and having to listen
to the incoming feed for the cue rather than watching the levels. It's
really bad.

The point of contributing this is that it seems a shame that what may
just be inefficient coding in a specific program has degenerated again
into an OS battle.

I can't afford Apple, but I use Linux here alongside Windows. I do use
the various Windows diagnostics - Process Monitor, Process Explorer and
xperf and other parts of the Performance Toolkit in tracking problems.
Are the Apple diagnostics any better?
--
Bill
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polymod polymod is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved



"Mike Rivers" wrote in message ...

On 9/20/2014 1:37 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
As I said, the program specifically warns that playing the keyboard
through the computer might produce an audible delay. Whether this is
inherent in MIDI, or is the result of poor programming, I don't know.


My vote goes for poor programming. Since they mentioned it, they're
aware of it.


My vote also. No need to be stuck with such a program with all the tools
available these days.
Heck, install Reaper (you can basically evaluate as long as you want) and a
few of the very good (and free) VSTs available. I'm running about 1-2ms of
latency and do a good deal of real time midi input via a keyboard
controller.


Poly



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Sean Conolly Sean Conolly is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , Trevor
writes
On 21/09/2014 4:28 AM, Sean Conolly wrote

For example, I use ASIO for all my audio because it works well, and the
drivers support Win MME so other apps (media player) can use it. If I
reverse it and have the DAW use the Windows MME drivers then the
performance
is predictably horrible. The cost is that I'm restricted to apps that
use
ASIO, but that includes pretty much everything that is intended for
serious
work.


Right, does MME go back to Win95 or Win3.0? And it hasn't been the primary
sound interface since WinXP so using it for "serious work" would be just
plain DUMB!!!

Yesterday, because my son is moving to a new house, I went up into the
attic to liberate some dining chairs. To get to them, I had to move a huge
pile of old tapes and noticed a couple that had been recorded alongside
the Win3.1 laptop. The laptop, running Cool Edit, had actually been used,
rather than the tapes, to turn around live clips during the events. I
suppose that must have been using MME.


Pre-Adobe versions of Cool Edit use MME, I didn't see ASIO support until
later it became Audition.

And I should really clarify my statement about MME performance - the
latency, not overall performance, is horrible. For playback latency is not a
problem, and for multi-tracking or playing samples it can be synchronized in
software. Plus you can always shift the tracks in the DAW if you're not
happy with the result of the synchronization.

ASIO, like all digital systems, also has latency but the latency is much
more dependent on the interface hardware. With good enough hardware, the
round trip latency may be low enough that it becomes imperceptible to the
performer, but it will always be a non-zero value.

The point of contributing this is that it seems a shame that what may just
be inefficient coding in a specific program has degenerated again into an
OS battle.



The great weakness of any product produced by a large company is that it is
ultimately compromised by what they think they can sell. That is the
fundamental strength of open source systems - removing the commercial
factors allows the engineers to focus on good engineering. Of course that
just exchanges one set of problems for another.

Sean


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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

William Sommerwerck wrote:

"hank alrich" wrote in message ...

I'm not sure that your promblems had anything to do with MIDI.
I think they arose from a praticular combo of OS and driver(s)
and app version, etc.


As //only// the app changed, you're probably right.


When Windows users complain about a lack of "intuitiveness"
in anything else, I chuckle.


Windows, unlike the Apple hardware and OS,


Apple hardware runs Mac OS, Windows, Linux€¦

Folks run OSX on Hackintoshes.

is not a closed system. It's not
surprising some things are not easy or obvious. But at least you have a
computer that can be upgraded,
and a wider selection of software.


Yes, you have five times as many programs you will never use.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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Tobiah Tobiah is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

Hell, it took nearly a decade for people to reverse-engineer NTFS to the
point where anyone outside of Microsoft can really say they understand it.
--scott


I remember the long road to kernel space NTFS support
on Linux. I used to FTP files to my work machine from
home so I could transfer them between Windows and Linux
on a dual-boot box.

Tobiah

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Tobiah Tobiah is offline
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Default MIDI problems resolved

For example, I use ASIO for all my audio because it works well, and the
drivers support Win MME so other apps (media player) can use it. If I
reverse it and have the DAW use the Windows MME drivers then the performance
is predictably horrible. The cost is that I'm restricted to apps that use
ASIO, but that includes pretty much everything that is intended for serious
work.


I like having two cards now. The system, web browsers,
media player etc. can all run at 44.1kHz and stay away
from my DAW card.



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