"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" said:


How can I make useful sound files available to anyone of
my class A hybrid amps, in order to make a meaningful
comparison with another amp via PC-ABX?


Both amps should be driven by the same recording, the
same source, at relevant levels. A good source would be
a number of high quality digital recordings strung
together, with some test tones for level setting at the
front.

Get a really good computer audio interface, load the amp
with a relevant load, attenuate a portion of the amps
output to match the input of the interface, and record
the attenuated output of the amp with the audio
interface.

A pair of high quality 5K 2-watt carbon composition
potentiometers make a good power amp output attenuator.


OK, so for this to work, both Mike and I have to use the
exact same source, PC setup and dummy load (or speaker)?

Only if you want to compare an amp you have to one that Mike
has.

I am currently recommending the M-Audio Audiophile 24192
as a reasonably-priced but *overkill-enough* audio
interface. It works on PCs and I think Macs as well.

There's some work for me to be done in this regard, as it
stands I only have an on-board sound card on my mobo
(Asus whatsoever).

The PC that sits in the living room, will have to do the
work since the one in my shack and the notebook are only
connected via a wireless LAN network.
Both have mediocre sound cards, if not worse, so they
would be useless for this to work.

One you have made your digital recordings of the outputs
of the amps, use the test tones to match levels. Ensure
that the recordings have identical start and stop points
within a few milliseconds.

I use Adobe Audition for this, but the freebie Audacity
software looks like it has all the necessary tools as
well. I think Audacity runs on both PCs and Macs as well.

Hold on: you're saying that we should match levels
*after* the recordings are made?

Yes. Only rough matching is required while the recordings
are made. You do the matching with the audio editing
software mentioned below.

Most PCABX Compartors accept .wav files of any sample
type and rate that the local audio interface will handle.

It can also be useful to compare the input file to any
output files for the equivalent of a "Straight Wire
Bypass Test".

That I've done before, and that's why I know my amp will
sound different from most others :-)

You can re-record the output recordings again and again
to simulate the effects of passing the test music
through a string of amplifiers. These files also are
good for training purposes. Even the best power amps can
usually be heard goofing-up the sound after 10 passes,
for example.

But there's no point in doing so, IMHO.

Sure there is - for listener training.

That wouldn't resemble a real-wprld scenario, no one is
using 5 or 10 amps in a series string (unless one's name
is Peter Walker grin )

It's also a useful technique for listener training.

Recently, Mike McKelvy and I were discussing the various
topologies of our respective amps, and we thought it
would be interesting to compare my amps with his
Acoustat. If this could be done via PCABX, it would
save us a great deal of shipping costs for a comparison
IRL.

Thet's the big advantage of PCABX - you don't need to
ship equipment, just sound files. You can even do stereo
comparisons of amps for which only one channel is
available.

But it still seems to be a problem to compare two
amplifiers that are located in resp. SoCal and the
Netherlands, unless one is using the exact same source,
material, PC and dummy load.

Yes, some things have to be held constant. The source can be
be an inexpensive but good optical player, the material can
be on a CD, and the dummy loads can be built from the same
parts list and schematic. Still easier than intercontinental
amplifier shipping, no?

Synchronizing the files afterwards isn't a problem I
think.

However, I still don't understand how one can do a
meaningful comparison when one's to adjust levels *after*
the recordings are made.

Perhaps this will make more sense after you have some
practical experience.

That way, differences are sure to occur, especially when
loudspeakers are used as a load instead of resistance
dummy loads.

Not at all. Since you are comparing files, and the files
have been level-matched the comparison is level-matched even
if different power levels are used during data gathering.
Usually power amps don't change their sound quality with
only small changes in output level.

Or am I missing something here?

Does your power amp sound different at 30 watt output than
it does at 30.5 watts?

"Lionel" wrote in message


Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is
probably suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 -
3000 hz range or so.


And up. Too many front row seats at too many loud
concerts.


Perhaps army also.

My recollection is that Weil spent a lot of time with "Ma
Duce", also known as the M2 50 Caliber machine gun. Ma Duce
does not speak softly!

In , Arny Krueger wrote :

"Lionel" wrote in message


Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is
probably suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 -
3000 hz range or so.


And up. Too many front row seats at too many loud
concerts.


Perhaps army also.

My recollection is that Weil spent a lot of time with "Ma
Duce", also known as the M2 50 Caliber machine gun. Ma Duce
does not speak softly!

I have manipulated it too. In France it was called "12.7 machine gun", a
terrible gun and very noisy.

"Arny Krueger" said:

snip


Not at all. Since you are comparing files, and the files
have been level-matched the comparison is level-matched even
if different power levels are used during data gathering.
Usually power amps don't change their sound quality with
only small changes in output level.


Well, thanks for the information, I think I'll try some of this with 2
amps at my disposal first, before we try any intercontinental
comparisons.


Or am I missing something here?


Does your power amp sound different at 30 watt output than
it does at 30.5 watts?


Well, there *are* tubes in there........ :-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.

OK, so for this to work, both Mike and I have to use the
exact same source, PC setup and dummy load (or speaker)?

Only if you want to compare a turd you have to one that Mike has.

In case you didn't know it, Sander, Arnii was Michigan's champion turd-tosser
for sixteen years running. Arnii Krooger knows his turds, that's for sure.
Floaters, sinkers, softies, stinkers -- Krooger is the turd eckthpurt.



you're saying that we should match levels
*after* the recordings are made?

Yes. Only rough wiping is required while the turds are
being "delivered". You do the final wiping when you
package the turds for competition.

Arnii was also the Midwest's honorary commander of the Stinkbutt Battalion.
Aside Krooger, of course, all the other members were confined for their own
protection. Just as well, since they had to pass a law outlawing a convocation
of that group in the name of public health.

But there's no point in doing so, IMHO.

Sure there is - for toilet training.

This is Arnii's element, Sander. Pay heed. ;-)



..
..

Don't you know why George nickname is "**** Fly" ?
Demonstration :


In , George "**** Fly" Middius wrote :




The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.

OK, so for this to work, both Mike and I have to use the
exact same source, PC setup and dummy load (or speaker)?

Only if you want to compare a turd you have to one that Mike has.

In case you didn't know it, Sander, Arnii was Michigan's champion
turd-tosser for sixteen years running. Arnii Krooger knows his turds,
that's for sure. Floaters, sinkers, softies, stinkers -- Krooger is the
turd eckthpurt.



you're saying that we should match levels
*after* the recordings are made?

Yes. Only rough wiping is required while the turds are
being "delivered". You do the final wiping when you
package the turds for competition.

Arnii was also the Midwest's honorary commander of the Stinkbutt
Battalion. Aside Krooger, of course, all the other members were confined
for their own protection. Just as well, since they had to pass a law
outlawing a convocation of that group in the name of public health.

But there's no point in doing so, IMHO.

Sure there is - for toilet training.

This is Arnii's element, Sander. Pay heed. ;-)



.
.

George Middius said:


The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.


Well, if everything goes as planned, I'm about to prove that not all
amps sound the same, even when within certain parameters.

And besides, I'm really curious as to how my amp holds up against an
Acoustat.

Mike, are you in for a round of PC-ABXing our amps? :-)

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

In , Sander deWaal wrote :

George Middius said:


The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.


Well, if everything goes as planned, I'm about to prove that not all
amps sound the same, even when within certain parameters.

And besides, I'm really curious as to how my amp holds up against an
Acoustat.

Mike, are you in for a round of PC-ABXing our amps? :-)

Yes !!! Very good idea Sander. That's a very interesting challenge...

It's not like a twisted lawsuit or some stupid and pitiful speculations
about a presence to NY audio show.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:40:00 +0100, Lionel
wrote:

dave weil a écrit :
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:23:13 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil a écrit :

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:30:32 +0100, Lionel
wrote:



Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is probably
suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 - 3000 hz range or so.


So, when you listened to Greg's speakers, what made you think that?

Il n'y a pas de fréquence de raccord possible entre le YAG-20 et le
W20RC38 de chez Silver Flute. Tous les DIYers expérimentés s'y sont
cassé les dents.
De plus le W20RC38 présente un comportement "imprevisible" aux
fréquences auxquelles il est censé rejoindre le YAG-20 (3 khz) :
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mar...fer%20test.htm

J'en déduis, mon cher Dave, que si tu n'as pas su déceler ce problème
lors des longues heures d'écoute qui ont précédé la rédaction de ton
"article" c'est que manifestement tu souffre d'une tare, accidentelle ou
congénitale, de l'ouie dans la gamme de fréquence correspondant au
problème soit : 1000~1500 à 3000 hz.

Je reste à ta disposition,
Cordialement.


I see. So you HAVEN'T heard the speaker system referenced.

Je n'ai pas besoin d'écouter les enceintes Europa pour connaitre le
comportement des haut-parleurs Silver Flutes.
J'ai moi-même construit plusieurs systèmes à partir des modèles W14RC25
qui sont, tu dois le savoir, des woofers bas-médiums parfaitement
homothetiques aux W20RC38, bien sûr les matériaux *aussi* sont identiques..
La réalisation d'enceintes cohérentes à partir de ce W14RC25 *nécessite*
un tweeter qui puisse être raccorder très bas, relativement aux
fréquences de raccordement traditionnelles des tweeters, c'est à dire
aux environs de 1500 hz. C'est pourquoi beacoup de gens expérimentés,
dont moi ;-), choisissent des tweeters de type "back chambered".

Par simple corrélation il est facile de comprendre pourquoi dans ces
conditions, il est impossible qu'un haut-parleur de plus grande
dimensions puisse avoir un comportement plus satisfaisant dans les
fréquences les plus élevées.

So, you've listened to these components with the same enclosure, same
crossover and in the same room that I listened to them. Cool.

You still haven't produced extracts of my review that support your
claims about alleged hearing loss in the referenced range.

So, I think I'll just ignore your claims, mainly because it's unlikely
that I have abnormalities in that range anyway.

I won't be going to get my hearing tested based on this flight of
fancy then.

et pourtant... ;-)

Toujours à ta disposition,
Cordialement.

As Sander has said as well, I doubt it. In fact, at this point, I
think I *will* dispose of you.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:04:07 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message


Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is
probably suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 -
3000 hz range or so.


And up. Too many front row seats at too many loud
concerts.


Perhaps army also.

My recollection is that Weil spent a lot of time with "Ma
Duce", also known as the M2 50 Caliber machine gun. Ma Duce
does not speak softly!

Apparently, in Arnold's army, they never used hearing protection. In
mine, we did.

That would explain a lot about Arnold's audio acuity.

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: dave weil a écrit :
: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:30:32 +0100, Lionel
: wrote:
:
:
: Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is probably
: suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 - 3000 hz range or so.
:
:
: So, when you listened to Greg's speakers, what made you think that?
:

: J'en déduis, mon cher Dave, que si tu n'as pas su déceler ce problème
: lors des longues heures d'écoute qui ont précédé la rédaction de ton
: "article" c'est que manifestement tu souffre d'une tare, accidentelle ou
: congénitale, de l'ouie dans la gamme de fréquence correspondant au
: problème soit : 1000~1500 à 3000 hz.
:
: Je reste à ta disposition,
: Cordialement.

......this is what happens when you use long sentences, Lionel :-)

Them will write your "article" and it will be clear and it will live
and it will go
and the inherency which is accidental it undergoes,
in order to detect this problem inside long time to precede
in order to listen to
it does not know, or, me, inside the frequency domain
which corresponds to a problem hearing
my love the Dave which it does it deduces:
In 3000 hertzes 1000~1500.

Me in your disposal, being diligent and sincere, it is remaining

:-) made in Korea

dave weil said:

In fact, at this point, I think I *will* dispose of you.

Goody! Can I watch?

dave weil said:

Apparently, in Arnold's army, they never used hearing protection. In
mine, we did.

That would explain a lot about Arnold's audio acuity.

You mean the "debating trade" Army? ;-)

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
..

I haven't any ambition.

You don't want to be the top sewer inspector?

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Lionel" wrote in message


Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is
probably suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 -
3000 hz range or so.


And up. Too many front row seats at too many loud
concerts.


Perhaps army also.

My recollection is that Weil spent a lot of time with "Ma Duce", also
known as the M2 50 Caliber machine gun. Ma Duce does not speak softly!



" . The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is
still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight-stopper,
puts their d**** in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.
"

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed...3501-9601r.htm

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel

wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech. www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech. www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction. No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot. The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate. This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there. The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.
As a result the forum has as much to do with high-end as the Walmart
audio division
Ludovic Mirabel

In article .com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in
the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's
hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims
of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction. No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot. The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate. This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there. The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

There are others there who are simpatico :-)

"George Middius" wrote in message
...



The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.

OK, so for this to work, both Mike and I have to use the
exact same source, PC setup and dummy load (or speaker)?

Only if you want to compare a turd you have to one that Mike has.

In case you didn't know it, Sander, Arnii was Michigan's champion
turd-tosser
for sixteen years running. Arnii Krooger knows his turds, that's for sure.
Floaters, sinkers, softies, stinkers -- Krooger is the turd eckthpurt.

While you are jkust a ****.

you're saying that we should match levels
*after* the recordings are made?

Yes. Only rough wiping is required while the turds are
being "delivered". You do the final wiping when you
package the turds for competition.

Arnii was also the Midwest's honorary commander of the Stinkbutt
Battalion.
Aside Krooger, of course, all the other members were confined for their
own
protection. Just as well, since they had to pass a law outlawing a
convocation
of that group in the name of public health.

You would be the skspurt on sickos.

But there's no point in doing so, IMHO.

Sure there is - for toilet training.

This is Arnii's element, Sander. Pay heed. ;-)



And yours is pay toilets.

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
George Middius said:


The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.


Well, if everything goes as planned, I'm about to prove that not all
amps sound the same, even when within certain parameters.

And besides, I'm really curious as to how my amp holds up against an
Acoustat.

Mike, are you in for a round of PC-ABXing our amps? :-)

--

Might could.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned,

They prefer ignorance?

moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel

Still leaves you out in the cold, huh?

wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for
matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for
dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of
the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker
advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned
in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?)
It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception --
claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction.

About ABX? There's very few knowledgable people who don't already get that
it is as both Steve, and I have said. A very reliable tool for determining
subtle differnces. It is accpeted fact.

No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot.

Why would there be when people aren't allowed to flame?

The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate.

Because the subjectivists never tire of trying to rationalize their view on
ABX. They refuse to accept that audio is engineering and that it conforms
to known principles.


This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there.

There's also the fact that saying it hasn't been validated is an outright
lie.


The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

Who regularly gets his assed kicked on technical subjects.

As a result the forum has as much to do with high-end as the Walmart
audio division
Ludovic Mirabel

It has to do with what the people keep talking about.

If you shut up about your ignorant view of ABX, nobody would have to keep
telling you how wrong you are.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 07:49:50 GMT, wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned,

They prefer ignorance?

moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel

Still leaves you out in the cold, huh?



Enough of this stupid double blind test.

You only need to put one blindfold on!

And it's best done when handcuffed to a bed head.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 07:56:27 GMT, wrote:


wrote in message
roups.com...

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for
matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for
dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of
the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker
advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned
in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?)
It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception --
claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction.

About ABX? There's very few knowledgable people who don't already get that
it is as both Steve, and I have said. A very reliable tool for determining
subtle differnces. It is accpeted fact.

No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot.

Why would there be when people aren't allowed to flame?

The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate.

Because the subjectivists never tire of trying to rationalize their view on
ABX. They refuse to accept that audio is engineering and that it conforms
to known principles.


This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there.

There's also the fact that saying it hasn't been validated is an outright
lie.


The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

Who regularly gets his assed kicked on technical subjects.

As a result the forum has as much to do with high-end as the Walmart
audio division
Ludovic Mirabel

It has to do with what the people keep talking about.

If you shut up about your ignorant view of ABX, nobody would have to keep
telling you how wrong you are.



and when you blindfold me, can you touch me too.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:04:45 +0000 (UTC), Steven Sullivan
wrote:

And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And Arnold's as well. Of course, THAT'S an endorsement in and of
itself.

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
.

I haven't any ambition.

You don't want to be the top sewer inspector?

Due to efforts like yours Art, RAO is fit only to be
inspected by sewer inspectors.

wrote in message
k.net...

"George Middius" wrote in message
...



The Krooborg conducts a clinic on selling 'borg oil.

OK, so for this to work, both Mike and I have to use the
exact same source, PC setup and dummy load (or speaker)?

Only if you want to compare a turd you have to one that Mike has.

In case you didn't know it, Sander, Arnii was Michigan's champion
turd-tosser
for sixteen years running. Arnii Krooger knows his turds, that's for
sure.
Floaters, sinkers, softies, stinkers -- Krooger is the turd eckthpurt.

While you are jkust a ****.

you're saying that we should match levels
*after* the recordings are made?

Yes. Only rough wiping is required while the turds are
being "delivered". You do the final wiping when you
package the turds for competition.

Arnii was also the Midwest's honorary commander of the Stinkbutt
Battalion.
Aside Krooger, of course, all the other members were confined for their
own
protection. Just as well, since they had to pass a law outlawing a
convocation
of that group in the name of public health.

You would be the skspurt on sickos.

But there's no point in doing so, IMHO.

Sure there is - for toilet training.

This is Arnii's element, Sander. Pay heed. ;-)



And yours is pay toilets.


"At least" he appreciates the qaulity of a more upscale toilet.

Ruud Broens a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...
: dave weil a écrit :
: On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:30:32 +0100, Lionel
: wrote:
:
:
: Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is probably
: suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 - 3000 hz range or so.
:
:
: So, when you listened to Greg's speakers, what made you think that?
:

: J'en déduis, mon cher Dave, que si tu n'as pas su déceler ce problème
: lors des longues heures d'écoute qui ont précédé la rédaction de ton
: "article" c'est que manifestement tu souffre d'une tare, accidentelle ou
: congénitale, de l'ouie dans la gamme de fréquence correspondant au
: problème soit : 1000~1500 à 3000 hz.
:
: Je reste à ta disposition,
: Cordialement.

.....this is what happens when you use long sentences, Lionel :-)


"Only the short minds are afraid by the long sentences"

Them will write your "article" and it will be clear and it will live
and it will go
and the inherency which is accidental it undergoes,
in order to detect this problem inside long time to precede
in order to listen to
it does not know, or, me, inside the frequency domain
which corresponds to a problem hearing
my love the Dave which it does it deduces:
In 3000 hertzes 1000~1500.

Me in your disposal, being diligent and sincere, it is remaining

:-) made in Korea

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
.

I haven't any ambition.

You don't want to be the top sewer inspector?

Due to efforts like yours Art, RAO is fit only to be inspected by sewer
inspectors.


Thanks for'dropping' by.

dave weil a écrit :
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:40:00 +0100, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil a écrit :

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:23:13 +0100, Lionel
wrote:



dave weil a écrit :


On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:30:32 +0100, Lionel
wrote:




Considering his review of Trotsky speakers, Dave Weil is probably
suffering of a loss of earing in the 1500 - 3000 hz range or so.


So, when you listened to Greg's speakers, what made you think that?

Il n'y a pas de fréquence de raccord possible entre le YAG-20 et le
W20RC38 de chez Silver Flute. Tous les DIYers expérimentés s'y sont
cassé les dents.
De plus le W20RC38 présente un comportement "imprevisible" aux
fréquences auxquelles il est censé rejoindre le YAG-20 (3 khz) :
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mar...fer%20test.htm

J'en déduis, mon cher Dave, que si tu n'as pas su déceler ce problème
lors des longues heures d'écoute qui ont précédé la rédaction de ton
"article" c'est que manifestement tu souffre d'une tare, accidentelle ou
congénitale, de l'ouie dans la gamme de fréquence correspondant au
problème soit : 1000~1500 à 3000 hz.

Je reste à ta disposition,
Cordialement.


I see. So you HAVEN'T heard the speaker system referenced.

Je n'ai pas besoin d'écouter les enceintes Europa pour connaitre le
comportement des haut-parleurs Silver Flutes.
J'ai moi-même construit plusieurs systèmes à partir des modèles W14RC25
qui sont, tu dois le savoir, des woofers bas-médiums parfaitement
homothetiques aux W20RC38, bien sûr les matériaux *aussi* sont identiques..
La réalisation d'enceintes cohérentes à partir de ce W14RC25 *nécessite*
un tweeter qui puisse être raccorder très bas, relativement aux
fréquences de raccordement traditionnelles des tweeters, c'est à dire
aux environs de 1500 hz. C'est pourquoi beacoup de gens expérimentés,
dont moi ;-), choisissent des tweeters de type "back chambered".

Par simple corrélation il est facile de comprendre pourquoi dans ces
conditions, il est impossible qu'un haut-parleur de plus grande
dimensions puisse avoir un comportement plus satisfaisant dans les
fréquences les plus élevées.


So, you've listened to these components with the same enclosure, same
crossover and in the same room that I listened to them. Cool.

Thank you for argumenting for me Dave. ;-)
Enclosure and crossover cannot improve something which doesn't exist.
The influence of the room in this range of frequencies is negligeable
moreover if the alleged frequencies aren't reproduced or are reproduced
incorrectly.
I repeat that for you :
- W20RC38 is unable to reproduce correctly frequencies above 1 khz.
- YAG-20 cannot be crossed lower than 3 khz with (minimum 12db/octave)
The rest is simple arithmetic Dave deal with it. If you want to built a
speaker with those drivers you *need* to add a medium.
Now the conclusion is a simple alternative :
- You have hearing problems in this range of frequencies
- You are a liar.

I chose the first.


You still haven't produced extracts of my review that support your
claims about alleged hearing loss in the referenced range.

So, I think I'll just ignore your claims, mainly because it's unlikely
that I have abnormalities in that range anyway.



I won't be going to get my hearing tested based on this flight of
fancy then.

et pourtant... ;-)

Toujours à ta disposition,
Cordialement.


As Sander has said as well, I doubt it. In fact, at this point, I
think I *will* dispose of you.

You'd better consult your ENT. :-)

George M. Middius a écrit :

dave weil said:


In fact, at this point, I think I *will* dispose of you.


Goody! Can I watch?

LOL ! Yes you can.

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Lionel" wrote in message
...
.

I haven't any ambition.


You don't want to be the top sewer inspector?

I would need to kill you and I'm too lazy. ;-)

Jenn wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in
the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's
hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims
of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction. No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot. The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate. This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there. The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

There are others there who are simpatico :-)

Indeed...there always are.
These days there's almost always debate there about some *inventive*
model of audio reality that Jenn and other subjectivists have offered. Apparently
the RAHE moderator(s) are less intolerant than Dr. Mirabilis claims.

Btw, not all of my posts to RAHE are approved, either. You can bet
that when it appears I've stopped participating in a thread, it's because
I've reached the point where the mods disallowed or have asked me to rewrite a post
if I want to resubmit it. I usually find that's not worth the effort.


--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow

said:

Mike, are you in for a round of PC-ABXing our amps? :-)


Might could.


Give me some time to get my PC's soundcard up to standards and to
practice some with PC-ABX and I'll get back to you.

My proposal is as follows: we both make wav. files available of our
respective amps, post them somewhere (or send them to Arny?) for all
to compare.

The output voltage of the amp shouldn't exceed 20 V RMS in 8 ohms,
which is loud enough, at least for me.
The power bandwidth at this output voltage is 5 Hz...100 kHz within 1
dB, which is beyond the scope of any sound card I know of at this
moment.
THD is below 0.5 % at 10 Hz, 1 kHz and 10 kHz up to 20 V rms output
voltage, with the 3rd as the dominant harmonic.
Output impedance 1 ohm over the entire frequency range mentioned
above.

Not really outstanding figures, but I suspect it'll do :-)

We have to agree on the source material and composition of the dummy
load, as well as the desired output voltage.
I'm assuming your sound card is good enough as to not be of
consequence.

You can reach me at s.a.w.i.(at)myprovider, remove the dots before the
(at)-sign. My provider should be obvious, it's in the header.

--

"Audio as a serious hobby is going down the tubes."
- Howard Ferstler, 25/4/2005

"Jenn" wrote in message


In article
.com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:

wrote:

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt
what a "serious newsgroup" does no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is
banned,

The claim that DBT discussion is banned is just another
example of Ludovic's failing grip on reality. Last time I
checked, DBTs are only banned on AA in the section devoted
to cables.

Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm
pretty sure I saw Sam Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently.

Tellig's posts were removed in a timely fashion. Another
Stereophile regular melts down in public - what's new?

(DBT discussion
was only banned in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch
there since?) It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

I don't see AA as being especially useless.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio
perception -- claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually
against its terms of service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org.

Agreed.

For a pro audio perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or
rec.audio.tech. www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a
pretty good and lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's
nightmare.

ditto and ditto.

--------------------------------------------------------

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at
will without fear of contradiction.

See former comments about Ludovic's disconnect with reality.
Sullivan can and is frequently contradicted on RAHE.

No need to take
shelter in his dodge of "killfiling" whenever the going
gets too hot.

Ah, so what Ludovic is complaining about is his inability to
engage in personal attacks and defamation.

The RAHE engineer-moderator does his job
for him. He hypocritically proclaimed ban on ABX debate.

Nothing like a personal attack to salve Ludovic's wounded
ego, it seems.

This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms like:
"Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are
real".

This would be no doubt be one of Ludovic's made-up quotes.

If one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX)
has never been validated by experiment your retort is
censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not.

To mental midgets like Ludovic, all bias-controlled tests
are the same, it seems.

Sullivans and
their clones reign supreme there. The gagged opposition
left one by one- gentle Harry Lavo the last survivor.

If you call being Harry Lavo "being a survivor" ;-)

There are others there who are simpatico :-)

Ludovic's affinity for RAO would appear to lie in his
ability to find sympathy from people who are as
logically-challenged and unaware of relevant facts as he is.

wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for
matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for
dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of
the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker
advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned
in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?)
It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception --
claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction.

About ABX? There's very few knowledgable people who don't already get that
it is as both Steve, and I have said. A very reliable tool for determining
subtle differnces. It is accpeted fact.

No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot.

Why would there be when people aren't allowed to flame?

The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate.

Because the subjectivists never tire of trying to rationalize their view on
ABX. They refuse to accept that audio is engineering and that it conforms
to known principles.


This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there.

There's also the fact that saying it hasn't been validated is an outright
lie.


The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

Who regularly gets his assed kicked on technical subjects.

As a result the forum has as much to do with high-end as the Walmart
audio division
Ludovic Mirabel

It has to do with what the people keep talking about.

If you shut up about your ignorant view of ABX, nobody would have to keep
telling you how wrong you are.

What ? Back to the old tricks of chopping up somebody's text to
victoriously answer your own artistic creations, shouting ever louder
"lie" when short of evidence etc.
No more promotional- advertising material to copy from the web? Given
up on flooding the RAO opening page ?

Go back to the work-bench. Remember: no gain without pain. Soon
you'll be skilled enough to pass as your own some stuff you found on
the web and at last get a beautiful gold-lettered diploma from.your
night school.
That will show them.
Ludovic Mirabel

Jenn wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in
the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's
hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims
of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction. No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot. The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate. This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there. The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

There are others there who are simpatico :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jenn says:
There are others there who are simpatico :-)

Apologies and congratulations for finding a way to say your say in a
non-confrontational sotto voce way which reduces even the boring,
objectivist buzz-saw like Chung to stay on his best manners..(Yes,
this is their best!)
But you are relatively new to it. Best of luck and hope you'll not wear
out.
Ludovic Mirabel

Steven Sullivan wrote:
Jenn wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:
wrote:

Derrick Fawsitt wrote:
Can those apparently few people who use this Newsgroup just for matters
Audio advise me if there is a "more" appropriate newsgroup for dealing
with Audio queries ao running down the subject matter of "most" of the
posts leads me to believe that this NG is for anything and everything
except serious Audio buffs.
I do hope this post attracts those who are prepared to advise but no
doubt some people will take offence at the tenure of my remarks, I
assure you no offence is intended, I just want some loudspeaker advice
but feel from the subject matter of some of the posts I may be in the
wrong place.
--
Derrick

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt what a "serious
newsgroup" doea no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is banned, moderator
rejects profanity, people argue about equipment and discuss their
experience. You'll soon know who you feel deserves to be listened to.
Ludovic Mirabel


Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm pretty sure I saw Sam
Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently. (DBT discussion was only banned in
the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch there since?) It's
hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio perception -- claims
of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually against its terms of
service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org. For a pro audio
perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or rec.audio.tech.
www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a pretty good and
lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
.And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's nightmare.

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at will without
fear of contradiction. No need to take shelter in his dodge of
"killfiling" whenever the going gets too hot. The RAHE
engineer-moderator does his job for him. He hypocritically proclaimed
ban on ABX debate. This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms
like: "Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are real". If
one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX) has never been validated
by experiment your retort is censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not. Sullivans and their clones
reign supreme there. The gagged opposition left one by one- gentle
Harry Lavo the last survivor.

There are others there who are simpatico :-)

Indeed...there always are.
These days there's almost always debate there about some *inventive*
model of audio reality that Jenn and other subjectivists have offered. Apparently
the RAHE moderator(s) are less intolerant than Dr. Mirabilis claims.

Btw, not all of my posts to RAHE are approved, either. You can bet
that when it appears I've stopped participating in a thread, it's because
I've reached the point where the mods disallowed or have asked me to rewrite a post
if I want to resubmit it. I usually find that's not worth the effort.
--------------------------------------------------------
Sullivan says:
Btw, not all of my posts to RAHE are approved, either. You can bet
that when it appears I've stopped participating in a thread, it's because
I've reached the point where the mods disallowed or have asked me to rewrite a post
if I want to resubmit it. I usually find that's not worth the effort.
Dear Fido
Just to remind you- there are other reasons for you to "stop
participation in a thread"
Like for instance this quote from my posting two days ago in the ":
Suggestion for Arny" thread .
"Sullivan is back again as a spokesman for "science" for the RAO
class..
I'll tell him how "science works"- anywhere, anytime. It is very
simple. It works by validating its hypothesis in successful
experiments . If the hypothesis is "There is no better way than ABX
to uncover subtle differences between audio components in their ability

to reproduce music " ( or however you want to phrase it- spare us the
nit-picking L.M.) then you perform experiments to show that. Usually
amongst the true experimental scientists you're supposed to have a
representative sample of various kinds of listeners, representative
musical samples, rigid statistical criteria and so on. But no matter. I

don't want to see you taking refuge in quibbles about wording . Your
definition, your statistics are fine.

For the nth time: quote any published experimental work anywhere
showing that your ABX incantation works
You know that we've been that route just a few days ago (see your
November 19th posting in the "How to become life and soul...") thread"

Still waiting. Nobody is censoring you here.Fido.
Ludovic Mirabel
I"ll stop calling you Fido when you stop calling me Dr. Mirabilis. For
the time being I'm competing with you for a golden palm in idiotic
name-calling.

--

Arny Krueger wrote:
"Jenn" wrote in message


In article
.com,
wrote:

Steven Sullivan wrote:

wrote:

By now it was demonstraded to you beyond any doubt
what a "serious newsgroup" does no look like.
Go to "www.Audio Asylum.com" The DBT discussion is
banned,

The claim that DBT discussion is banned is just another
example of Ludovic's failing grip on reality. Last time I
checked, DBTs are only banned on AA in the section devoted
to cables.

Audio Asylum is nothing if not aptly-named. And I'm
pretty sure I saw Sam Tellig calling
someone *profane* names there recently.

Tellig's posts were removed in a timely fashion. Another
Stereophile regular melts down in public - what's new?

(DBT discussion
was only banned in the cable section
last time I looked..has there been a forum-wide putsch
there since?) It's hardly the haven of
reason and civil discourse Derrick seems to seek.

I don't see AA as being especially useless.

If you want no-nonsense discussion of audio and audio
perception -- claims of the 'I heard a
difference therefore it is real" type are actually
against its terms of service, as are
flamewars and profanity -- try www.hydrogenaudio.org.

Agreed.

For a pro audio perspective , seek out
the www.prosoundweb forums or rec.audio.pro or
rec.audio.tech. www.audioholics.com also
has some very good articles on no-nonsense audio, and a
pretty good and lively forum. And of
course, there's rec.audio.high-end, every audiophool's
nightmare.

ditto and ditto.

--------------------------------------------------------

And naturally Sullivan's delight He can spout there at
will without fear of contradiction.

See former comments about Ludovic's disconnect with reality.
Sullivan can and is frequently contradicted on RAHE.

No need to take
shelter in his dodge of "killfiling" whenever the going
gets too hot.

Ah, so what Ludovic is complaining about is his inability to
engage in personal attacks and defamation.

The RAHE engineer-moderator does his job
for him. He hypocritically proclaimed ban on ABX debate.

Nothing like a personal attack to salve Ludovic's wounded
ego, it seems.

This allows RAHE to post all the subtle cryptonyms like:
"Prove by a bias-free test that your impressions are
real".

This would be no doubt be one of Ludovic's made-up quotes.

If one says that the bias-free."test' (read ABX)
has never been validated by experiment your retort is
censored out because it is "repetitive" or
"uninteresting" or about ABX or what not.

To mental midgets like Ludovic, all bias-controlled tests
are the same, it seems.

Sullivans and
their clones reign supreme there. The gagged opposition
left one by one- gentle Harry Lavo the last survivor.

If you call being Harry Lavo "being a survivor" ;-)

There are others there who are simpatico :-)

Ludovic's affinity for RAO would appear to lie in his
ability to find sympathy from people who are as
logically-challenged and unaware of relevant facts as he is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arny says:
"Ah, so what Ludovic is complaining about is his inability to
engage in personal attacks and defamation"

Arny- where I come from, the "going gets hot" means "when argument
gets hot". Sorry that your imagination does not see a lively discussion
without "personal attacks and defamation"
Sorry that you next prove that you learned the lesson only too well:
Here are a few excerpts from your current usage:.
"This would be no doubt be one of Ludovic's made-up quotes"
Note the artful use of "one of"..
Mo
"To mental midgets like Ludovic, all bias-controlled tests
are the same, it seems."

And here is one of the "personal attacks and defamation " I
subjected our supporter of civility in discussion: two short months
ago.
"Arny let me now say something in sorrow rather than anger. You are
an inventive guy , a cut above average, you're bright and articulate
well, you forgot more about electronics than I will ever know. I am
told that. your ABX or its derivatives are used daily by researchers..
This should be plenty satisfying to you. You don't need to extend the
ABX empire to where it does not fit.
It seems that you can never satisfy some egos. Arny is confusing a
disagreement with "personal attacks and defamation ".
It seems also that I truly got under his skin by awkward questions like
this one: "IPlease point to ONE SINGLE published ABX test which
resulted in recognition of differences between any electronically
comparable audio component and another."
You don't like this wording? REPHRASE it. Anything goes. Don't
nitpick and don't stay mute till you hope the question was forgotten
when you can start things afresh.
Because it will not be . I'll take care of that.
I'm also notifyiing your claque that if they want to go on the way
they have been doing I will continue to take it and to dish it out too.
In spades. Thankfully in a free society they can not fulfil their
dreams and muzzle the opposition.
Ludovic Mirabel
At least my quarrel with RAHE was not about repetitious advertising.