I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work) recording
instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low speeds. I'm finding
alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I just don't have the sort of
detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty
sure these are NOT the tools for the job.

I need the suggestions for mics to rent for this project - need the highest
resolution/detail possible. I'm guessing a REALLY good top end wouldn't hurt
since everything will be transposed down at LEAST 2-3 octaves. My GUESSES
would be the following, but I could be totally wrong; Sanken CU-41,
Soundfield mic, B&K analytical mics, Brauner VM-1 (?), maybe earthworks mics
(because of their small diaphragms)?

Suggestions anyone?

What's wrong with ribbon mics? A good ribbon mic should have response well into
the ultrasonic region. As should a good condenser -- my PMLs get out to 25kHz or
so.

My guess is that in slowing down the recording, you're moving a lot of
lower-midrange components down into the bass region. It's this undue and
"excessive" quantity of low frequencies -- which are NOT normally present in the
sounds of the instruments you're recording -- that you interpret as "mush."

A mic with "better" detail or resolution won't help much, because in slowing
down the recording, you are altering the instruments' tonal balances in a way
the ear and brain don't find very agreeable.

I'd suggest using an equalizer to reduce the energy below 200 Hz or so. You
might also try an Aphex Aural Exciter or similar processing to "liven up" the
sound.


I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work)
recording instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very
low speeds. I'm finding alot of stuff turning to mush on playback.
I just don't have the sort of detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon
and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty sure these are NOT the
tools for the job.

"Jonathan Dewdney" wrote in message
...
I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work) recording
instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low speeds. I'm
finding
alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I just don't have the sort of
detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty
sure these are NOT the tools for the job.

I need the suggestions for mics to rent for this project - need the
highest
resolution/detail possible. I'm guessing a REALLY good top end wouldn't
hurt
since everything will be transposed down at LEAST 2-3 octaves. My GUESSES
would be the following, but I could be totally wrong; Sanken CU-41,
Soundfield mic, B&K analytical mics, Brauner VM-1 (?), maybe earthworks
mics
(because of their small diaphragms)?

I've recorded my Oktava MC-012s at 96KHz, and they seem to pick up tones all
the way up to 44KHz without a problem. Don't know how flat they are in that
range but if it's there you can manipulate it. If your tape deck can record
that high you should be able to do it, but I'm not sure how many tape decks
were designed to record a full octave over the commonly accepted hearing
limits of 20KHz, and of course if the heads are even slightly magnatized
it's not going to work.

Sean

"Jonathan Dewdney" wrote in message
...
I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work) recording
instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low speeds. I'm
finding
alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I just don't have the sort of
detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty
sure these are NOT the tools for the job.


Dewd, (sorry)
Many, if not most, ribbon mics, while having extended high end, are somewhat
dark in character compared to modern condenser mics. This doesn't mean low
resolution in the ribbons but it could sound that way subjectively. The 421,
while being able to handle high spl, is a lage diaphram dynamic mic and as such
(according to my understanding) may not have the best transient response. I
dont know what its limit is in the high end.

Something like a small diaphram Schoeps, DPA et al would seem to be the best
bet. The Earthworks do claim to go up to 40kHz in some models and for your app
that might be an advantage.

So might a good high-pass filter. If you are recording something which may
already have some content down in the 30 or 40 Hz range and then you are
transposing that way down I can understand where the mud could come from.

Garth~



"I think the fact that music can come up a wire is a miracle."
Ed Cherney

William Sommerwerck wrote:
What's wrong with ribbon mics? A good ribbon mic should have response well into
the ultrasonic region. As should a good condenser -- my PMLs get out to 25kHz or
so.

That's not very useful. You play that back at 1/4 speed and it'll be out
to 6 KHz or so... that will sound muffled. You need something that will
be flat out to 80 KHz, and you need record electronics able to handle it.

You might consider looking at old Ampex 3200 duplicator slaves. They will
handle that sort of bandwidth, and they are usually available for the asking.
You will also need appropriate microphones, and the small stuff rrom B&K
that can go out that high is not cheap.
--scott



--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

That's not very useful. You play that back at 1/4 speed and it'll be out
to 6 KHz or so... that will sound muffled. You need something that will
be flat out to 80 KHz, and you need record electronics able to handle it.

Yes, but that assumes the instrument has significant energy out that far.

Only one other person has addressed what is probably the fundamental issue --
slowing the tape grossly alters the tonal balance in a "muddy"direction. It's
not the mics, it's the slowing down.

William Sommerwerck wrote:
That's not very useful. You play that back at 1/4 speed and it'll be out
to 6 KHz or so... that will sound muffled. You need something that will
be flat out to 80 KHz, and you need record electronics able to handle it.

Yes, but that assumes the instrument has significant energy out that far.

Well, if it doesn't, it will definitely sound muffled. But a fiddle sure
has significant energy out that far, as does a triangle. A trumpet will,
but I don't think a clarinet will.

Only one other person has addressed what is probably the fundamental issue --
slowing the tape grossly alters the tonal balance in a "muddy"direction. It's
not the mics, it's the slowing down.

Well, if you're cutting off at 5 KC anyway, you can't tell what the slowing
down is really doing because of the top end loss from the recording process.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Jonathan Dewdney wrote:

I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work)
recording instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low
speeds. I'm finding alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I
just don't have the sort of detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon
and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty sure these are NOT the tools
for the job.

Better (small condenser) microphones will only help you in those odd
instances where actual higher-frequency sound energy is present in
highly unusual amounts. You can get microphones that will pick up
frequencies to 40 or 50 kHz; they are available from DPA, Earthworks,
Schoeps and Sennheiser (in alphabetical order), possibly among others.

This type of microphone was developed so that small-scale acoustical
models of concert halls and studios, etc., could be tested. They are
of very limited use in music recording, however, since almost no musical
instruments ever produce significant energy above about 16 kHz or so.
The main exceptions are certain percussion instruments at the moment
of attack when they are closely miked--but it's not at all clear that
the audience in a hall ever gets much exposure to that energy by the
time the sound reaches them.

Noise and distortion products above 16 kHz can readily be obtained
from analog recordings--but those signals were not present to any
comparable degree in the original performance, a fact which some
vinyl fanatics conveniently overlook (at least some who've posted
on this newsgroup). At 20 kHz the typical energy in most real-world
sound other than industrial noises is ~40 dB below the corresponding
levels at 1 kHz. So that's about what you'd get, an octave or two
lower, if you slowed down an accurate tape recording that included
the high frequency range: mud, as you call it.

You may want to experiment with distortion generators and, as I
think Bill Sommerwerck suggested in the other thread, an Aphex Aural
Exciter to help create what you wish were there, because there's
precious little of the real thing above 20 kHz in the real world.

Jonathan Dewdney wrote:

I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work) recording
instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low speeds. I'm finding
alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I just don't have the sort of
detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty
sure these are NOT the tools for the job.

I need the suggestions for mics to rent for this project - need the highest
resolution/detail possible. I'm guessing a REALLY good top end wouldn't hurt
since everything will be transposed down at LEAST 2-3 octaves. My GUESSES
would be the following, but I could be totally wrong; Sanken CU-41,
Soundfield mic, B&K analytical mics, Brauner VM-1 (?), maybe earthworks mics
(because of their small diaphragms)?

Suggestions anyone?

Folks so far seem to be focusing on your ribbon mics as they don't have
severely extended top end; but the 441's are pretty up there for
dynamics. I think this process might be better handled in the digital
domain. I don't think you're going to ge slowing down the analog deck
and retaining clarity. It's not just that your top end is going to drop,
_everything_ is going to drop and lots of it is going to end up in the
mud. Dump one of your takes into digital and mess with that to see if it
gets closer to your goal(s).

--
ha

Jonathan Dewdney wrote in message ...
I'm doing some experimental projects (soundtrack type work) recording
instruments at 15 or 30 ips and playing back at very low speeds. I'm finding
alot of stuff turning to mush on playback. I just don't have the sort of
detail I need. I'm using beyer ribbon and senn MD-441 mics and I'm pretty
sure these are NOT the tools for the job.

I need the suggestions for mics to rent for this project - need the highest
resolution/detail possible. I'm guessing a REALLY good top end wouldn't hurt
since everything will be transposed down at LEAST 2-3 octaves. My GUESSES
would be the following, but I could be totally wrong; Sanken CU-41,
Soundfield mic, B&K analytical mics, Brauner VM-1 (?), maybe earthworks mics
(because of their small diaphragms)?

Suggestions anyone?

You are limited by the recording medium, in this case, analog tape.
Even the best analog recorders at 30ips will only record as high as
about 25kHz. Transposing to 1/2 speed will only yield a top of about
12kHz, transposing to 1/4 speed will only get you about 6khz, etc.
You'd have to get extreme hi-freq mics (as you mentioned), and record
digitally at probably at least 96 kHz, maybe 192. Even that, when
transposed, will only yield slightly better results when transposed
down by a factor of 4. Try reducing low frequencies with EQ on
playback. EQ frequencies will transpose down in step with the lower
speeds - if there was a peak at 180Hz at full speed, at 1/2 speed that
peak would appear at 90Hz, etc.

Good Luck,
Mikey
Nova Music Productions