I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

Hoping for a reply

Regards Brian

It depends on your goals in wanting to buy the speakers. I tend to
like purist recordings of male and female vocalists, jazz bands (but
avoid the done-to-death "Jazz at the Pawnshop") and other things that
have a real sound, but the key is to be able to relate that to what the
actual thing is supposed to sound like. classical music buffs have a
big advantage if they go to concerts often enough to have their ears in
cal.

If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some recordings that
are bad, so the badness can be determined to be maintained. If bad
recordings sound good, you have speakers that are lying their ass off.
Many expensive brands popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that
way.

If you live in a town with serious recording facilities, talk, wheedle
or blow (just kidding!) your way into having a couple of short
selections played over their monitors. One good, one stinky.

Brian said:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

Brian wrote:
I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would
like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when
judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.

When you're comparing audio gear, you probably want to use some
recordings that are helpful in a diagnostic sense. They might include
recordings that you often find a little irritating, but that can sound
good under ideal conditions. It's OK to use recording that tend to
sound good to you as well, after all you don't want to buy speakers
that make your favorite recordings sound like trash.

Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.

I think your taste in music has something to do with this. I don't
agree with people who say that only certain musical genres are
acceptable for checking out speakers. OTOH, I don't think you want to
restrict your evaluation suite to just highly-compressed heavy metal
rock.

The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD
using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

You could do far worse.

One other thing - the listening room profoundly affects the sound of
speakers. If you can figure out how to do your speaker evaluations in
your listening room then please do so.

calcerise wrote ...
If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some
recordings that are bad, so the badness can be determined
to be maintained. If bad recordings sound good, you have
speakers that are lying their ass off. Many expensive brands
popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that way.

If one were selecting speakers for a studio, I would agree
100% with that statement. However if I were advising
someone on buying speakers for their home, maybe "lying
their ass off" is a good thing? (Assuming that they do a
good job on good recordings, too of course.)

George M. Middius wrote:


Brian said:


I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.


This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.

Have your ears been conditioned and educated over the years to appreciating,
and judging, very good quality reproduced sound by cringeing at anything
even
fractionally sub-standard? This is half the battle. It builds you up to
select only the best end-transducers. This is not snobbery, but valuable
sensory vetting.
When some pair you are experiencing elsewhere sounds lucid,
natural and uncoloured on source material (good and bad) and via a chain
that you are already familiar
with, that is the deciding Eureka moment. (Quality and transparency, not
costs)
But, remember, your own listening-room acoustics will play some part in your
acceptance.

"Brian" wrote in message
...
I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

Hoping for a reply

Regards Brian

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:36:46 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

George M. Middius wrote:

Brian said:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.

No, the Borg understand that speakers differ.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Arny Krueger wrote:

Brian wrote:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would

like

some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when

judging

speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.


When you're comparing audio gear, you probably want to use some
recordings that are helpful in a diagnostic sense. They might include
recordings that you often find a little irritating, but that can sound
good under ideal conditions. It's OK to use recording that tend to
sound good to you as well, after all you don't want to buy speakers
that make your favorite recordings sound like trash.


Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.


I think your taste in music has something to do with this. I don't
agree with people who say that only certain musical genres are
acceptable for checking out speakers. OTOH, I don't think you want to
restrict your evaluation suite to just highly-compressed heavy metal
rock.

OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
basic litmus test and should be avoided.

One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
and/or focus on just one? Can you hear it all together coherently?
How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?

One also should be something you are familiar with, of course.
I like pieces that stress dynamics. A good example is the organ
symphony by Saint Saens or Carmina Burana - it has quiet parts
and intricate backgrounds with loud in-you-face dynamics overlapping.
Truly great speakers will do it all, while most will have some
obvious defect or be clear wich pecking order they are in at the
store. Then it's your choice to decide what compromises you can
live with within your budget. All speakers have problems and defects,
afterall - so we all make compromises.

That said, what's the budget? Some brands are easier to
weed out or recommend as a starting point as they offer good
sound at a decent price-point. In my case, I like JBL Pro,
but they're ugly and large. My father likes Tannoy. My
professor from college loves his Kef speakers. My best
friend likes somethiing else...

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:01:42 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

calcerise wrote ...
If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some
recordings that are bad, so the badness can be determined
to be maintained. If bad recordings sound good, you have
speakers that are lying their ass off. Many expensive brands
popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that way.

If one were selecting speakers for a studio, I would agree
100% with that statement. However if I were advising
someone on buying speakers for their home, maybe "lying
their ass off" is a good thing? (Assuming that they do a
good job on good recordings, too of course.)

That's the problem. Speakers that sound good on bad recordings, will
not sound great on a great recording. Depends if you want a stunning
musical experience, or easy listening..............

Note that, out in the real world, you're not guaranteed a great
performance every time you go to a concert! :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Pukey said:

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

It also may be a clue that he's not a Borg or a Kreugerite.

No, the Borg understand that speakers differ.

Apparently you're into self-delusion. Or, as your hero Arnii Krooger would
say: Thanks for admitting Mr. Pniketron that your a bigger borg than all,
of us, together Mr. Painkretone. LOL!

Stewart Pinkerton wrote:
On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 07:01:42 -0700, "Richard Crowley"
wrote:

calcerise wrote ...
If fidelity is your goal, it's important to have some
recordings that are bad, so the badness can be determined
to be maintained. If bad recordings sound good, you have
speakers that are lying their ass off. Many expensive brands
popular at audio saloons are very dishonest that way.

If one were selecting speakers for a studio, I would agree
100% with that statement. However if I were advising
someone on buying speakers for their home, maybe "lying
their ass off" is a good thing? (Assuming that they do a
good job on good recordings, too of course.)

That's the problem. Speakers that sound good on bad recordings, will
not sound great on a great recording.



What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This would be
at best a rare thing.


Depends if you want a stunning
musical experience, or easy listening..............


Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings. Although, by and large, bad recordings will actually sound
better on better speakers, they just will never sound good. There are a
few exceptions such as the Phil Spector wall of sound recordings which
were engineered to sound best on AM car radios. But those are the
exceptions not the rule. In general bad to average recordings will
benifit from the use of better speakers.



Scott Wheeler

Brian a écrit :
I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon"
and I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

Hoping for a reply



The good restitution of a drums solo with clarty, precision
(in time and tone) and the necessary impact and pressure is
a very difficult exercise for the speakers.

wrote:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to crappy
speakers, Scott.

Mr. **** spattered:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to crappy
speakers, Scott.

Another "debating trade" point for the Krooborg. Tell us, Arnii -- when
will your trophy case be full to the point that you need to flush?

wrote in message

What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This would be
at best a rare thing.

A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience that a
poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case that
one particular recording may sound better...


geoff

Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...


geoff

Geoff Wood wrote:
wrote in message

What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This
would be
at best a rare thing.

A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience
that a
poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case
that
one particular recording may sound better...


geoff

That wouldn't be a rare thing?


Scott Wheeler

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to crappy
speakers, Scott.

That would be yet another fantasy of yours.



Scott Wheeler

wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to crappy
speakers, Scott.

That would be yet another fantasy of yours.

Say what? You just bragged about it!

Scott, are you trying to say that you don't have much experience with
listening to crappy speakers? Doesn't that invalidate your comments
about them?

****borg prattled:

That would be yet another fantasy of yours.

Scott

Oh Arnii! Are you there, Arnii? Your little pal from Arkansas just posted
the same venomous puke twice in a row. In the past, you've screeched in
pain when others have re-posted emended versions of earlier posts. Are you
going to jump in Thing's ****, or what?

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and
bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to
crappy
speakers, Scott.

That would be yet another fantasy of yours.

Say what? You just bragged about it!


Dude, what have you been huffing?




Scott, are you trying to say that you don't have much experience with
listening to crappy speakers?

Do you think one either has "not much" experience or "vast experience'
with crappy speakers? Do you think there is nothing inbetween? I am
confident that you either have more experience with crappy speakers
than I do or you are simply lying about listening to music all these
years. The idea that my experience with crappy speakers is so vast that
one as old as you would defer to my experience is nothing more than a
fantasy of yours.


Doesn't that invalidate your comments
about them?


No.



Scott Wheeler

wrote in message
oups.com...

Geoff Wood wrote:
wrote in message

What speakers actually sound *good* on *bad* recortdings? This
would be
at best a rare thing.

A bad recording may have particularly offensive frequwny prominience
that a
poor spreaker may fail to reproduce, but pass others. In which case
that
one particular recording may sound better...


geoff

That wouldn't be a rare thing?

yes

geoff

wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Do you think one either has "not much" experience or "vast
experience'
with crappy speakers?

Sure, just say no to listening to crappy speakers.

Do you think there is nothing inbetween?

Debating trade, anyone?

I am confident that you either have more experience with crappy
speakers
than I do or you are simply lying about listening to music all these
years.

Your excluded middle argument fails because I exercise good taste
while listening to music. I avoid substandard amplfiers, such as those
that include vacuum tubes in their construction.

The idea that my experience with crappy speakers is so vast
that one as old as you would defer to my experience is nothing more
than a fantasy of yours.

It is true that when I was very young, I listened to a lot of crappy
audio. However, that's an unfair comparison with you Scott, since you
weren't even born then. I duuno, was your father even born by then? By
the time you were born Scott, I was fairly well in control of my
listening environment. I adopted a policy of either listening to good
speakers, or not listening at all.

Arny Krueger wrote:
wrote:
Arny Krueger wrote:

Do you think one either has "not much" experience or "vast
experience'
with crappy speakers?

Sure, just say no to listening to crappy speakers.


Just when I thought Ferstler was king of the idiot hill.....




Do you think there is nothing inbetween?

Debating trade, anyone?


Lack of reading comprehension anyone?




I am confident that you either have more experience with crappy
speakers
than I do or you are simply lying about listening to music all
these
years.

Your excluded middle argument fails because I exercise good taste
while listening to music. I avoid substandard amplfiers, such as
those
that include vacuum tubes in their construction.


You can't even follow the content of the thread. Aside from that your
claim is utter bull****. You are the poster child for bad taste.




The idea that my experience with crappy speakers is so vast
that one as old as you would defer to my experience is nothing more
than a fantasy of yours.

It is true that when I was very young, I listened to a lot of crappy
audio. However, that's an unfair comparison with you Scott, since you
weren't even born then.


Are you really this stupid?



I duuno, was your father even born by then? By
the time you were born Scott, I was fairly well in control of my
listening environment.


Riiiight. IOW you were already rationalizing your inability to buy the
good stuff with your everything sounds the same mantra.


I adopted a policy of either listening to good
speakers, or not listening at all.


OK you don't listen at all. Maybe I do have more experience with
listening to crappy speakers. I hear them all the time outside of my
home. You, you just don't listen to anything apparently.




Scott Wheeler

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Mr. **** spattered:

Crappy speakers do tend to reduce differences between good and bad
recordings.

I'm happy to defer to your vast experience with listening to crappy
speakers, Scott.

Another "debating trade" point for the Krooborg. Tell us, Arnii -- when
will your trophy case be full to the point that you need to flush?

It's a "hole in the ground."

George M. Middius wrote:



****borg prattled:

That would be yet another fantasy of yours.

Scott

Oh Arnii! Are you there, Arnii? Your little pal from Arkansas just posted
the same venomous puke twice in a row. In the past, you've screeched in
pain when others have re-posted emended versions of earlier posts. Are you
going to jump in Thing's ****, or what?


Poor George has really nothing to say today but he is anxiously looking for communication...

Eh George, is your mirror tired to answer you ?

;-)




----------
Sent via SPRACI - http://www.spraci.com/ - Parties,Raves,Clubs,Festivals

"Geoff Wood" wrote:

Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...


geoff

Thanks Geoff, but I own a pair of book shelf Kef C25 speakers at the
moment. I brought them about 15 years ago.
Do you know where these fit in in the range of KEF speakers?
Are the budget, medium quality or high quality speakers?
I wish I knew the frwequency response of these speakers as they seem
to fail with the very high piched notes.

Regards Brian

Thanks Joseph for your comments.
See below for my reply.


Joseph Oberlander wrote:


OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
basic litmus test and should be avoided.

What is the litmus test?

One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
and/or focus on just one?
Do you mean speaker imaging where you can point to the place where the
singer appears to be?

Can you hear it all together coherently?
How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?

So the you can move back from the speakers and hear them without a
blur the better the speakers are?
I only have a small room for the speakers.

One also should be something you are familiar with, of course.
I like pieces that stress dynamics. A good example is the organ
symphony by Saint Saens or Carmina Burana - it has quiet parts
and intricate backgrounds with loud in-you-face dynamics overlapping.
Truly great speakers will do it all, while most will have some
obvious defect or be clear wich pecking order they are in at the
store. Then it's your choice to decide what compromises you can
live with within your budget. All speakers have problems and defects,
afterall - so we all make compromises.

That said, what's the budget? Some brands are easier to
weed out or recommend as a starting point as they offer good
sound at a decent price-point. In my case, I like JBL Pro,
but they're ugly and large. My father likes Tannoy. My
professor from college loves his Kef speakers. My best
friend likes somethiing else...

I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

Regards Brian

"Brian" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" wrote:

Brian, trhere's a set of KEF 103.2 speakers on TradeMe at the moment ...


geoff

Thanks Geoff, but I own a pair of book shelf Kef C25 speakers at the
moment. I brought them about 15 years ago.
Do you know where these fit in in the range of KEF speakers?
Are the budget, medium quality or high quality speakers?
I wish I knew the frwequency response of these speakers as they seem
to fail with the very high piched notes.

Fail ? If you are noticing a dropout in 'notes' (as opposed to harmonics),
then it sounds like something is broken in the crossover

The 103.2s are the 'reference series' and could be considered
high-to-very-high, but not extreme quality. I think he wants around NZ$3500
.. I that's at all in your league, look up some reviews on the net, and try
to arrange an audition.

geoff

"Brian" wrote in message

I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

As before, they may be broken. But KEF (as do other manufacturers) have
economy ranges as well as premium.

geoff

Brian wrote:

I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

If not KEF, someone else.

BTW, I have a pair of KEF Q15s that I use for PC speakers.

Lionel_Chapuis wrote:

Eh George, is your mirror tired to answer you ?

;-)

The old, old joke is that there's nothing wrong with talking to
yourself, its when you start getting answers that you should worry.
As always, Dr. Middius first needs to cure himself.

In , on 04/10/05
at 03:03 PM, Brian said:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon" and
I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

This sort of question always results in "flames". Some of us who hang
out here were born old, wiser than anyone else, and cranky.

Audio is a journey. Everyone travels at their own pace and we all end
up at different destinations. My destination is just as good as yours,
yours is as good as mine. If you don't like your current location, a
more experienced traveler can be your guide -- but don't let the guide
take you to a place you don't want to be or convince you that there is
only one destination.

Listen to your regular music. It makes no sense to demo with ... (fill
in your least favorite type of music) if you never listen to it at
home. For some reason some customers assume that I listen to certain
types of music and either to flatter me or, assuming that I somehow
know what the "best" music is, they want to listen to my music.

Keep things simple. Travel with a few of your CD's and start with them.
Three CD's is a good number. Pick something simple that emphasizes your
favorite instrument. Next listen to something a little more complex, a
vocal is excellent if you listen to them. Finally, try something
complex, with a lot of instruments. The first two CD's will give you a
sense of the speakers' accuracy -- for you. The last will give you a
sense of what happens when everybody is in there slugging it out. If
the salesperson is any good, he or she may suggest something from the
store's collection that will help illustrate a point.

Spend some time with the prospective speaker. No matter what happened
with your three CD assault, if you are mysteriously tired of the
speaker after half an hour, move on to something else. You'll be able
to listen to the "right" speaker for hours.

Use common sense when picking your music. If subtile detail is your
thing, listening to Beatles stuff recorded just after they discovered
fuzz and distortion, is not productive.

Pay attention to what you hear at friends' homes. Take down brand names
and model numbers. What did you like and what did you not like? Is
there a common thread? (too much bass, not enough bass, no detail, too
much detail, a certain brand, etc.)

Typically, bass is more important to younger, male listeners than to
other groups. The transition begins in the early 20's. Keep in mind
that this is only "typical", your milage may vary. There are plenty of
middle aged female fans out there that can show their sons a thing or
two about thump. If you are a young male and bass is important, don't
let some ancient crumbum convince you that you shouldn't have bass. It
cuts the other way too. If you are a bit older and bass isn't quite as
important this time around, you are normal -- don't let some young
bull, sell you the thump he envies.

In spite of what the salesperson would like, don't buy too soon. While
it might be initially confusing, you'll quickly learn how to listen.
Everyone has their own "listening window". For some the window is open
for a half hour or so, then it's time to take a walk because you'll
become fatigued and everything will start to sound the same. The next
time out, you'll be smarter and things will go better and faster. Some
people can listen for hours. (and never seem to purchase anything)

Some sales people make excellent guides, others want to pick your
pocket as fast as possible. It is relatively easy to separate the two.
The guide will ask you which speaker sounds best, the pickpocket or
egocentric will tell you which sounds best.

Taking an "expert" friend along may help ... sometimes. In my
experience it can go either way. In some situations the actual customer
is too shy to speak to me and I have to communicate through the expert.
Other times the expert is steering the friend to the speakers the
expert envies, but are not appropriate for the customer. I this is
true, hopefully, I can earn the trust of the customer and they will
ditch the expert and come back later. In rare cases the expert friend
is actually helpful.

Rooms are also in the equation. The room is part of the speaker, the
speaker is part of the room. The showroom will never sound exactly the
same as your room (and the speaker will sound different if you move it
to a another location in your own room). If you have the option, pick a
dealer who has rooms that are not specially treated (unless you intend
to treat your room). It's hard to judge a speaker in some cavernous
hifi supermarket.

Done properly, with the right guide, you'll buy the right speaker even
though it will sound different in your own room. Tell the guide about
your room. If the guide has no comments about your room, pick a new
guide.

Taking a speaker home for a trial is helpful if you are down to two
models and can't decide which is right for you. If you want to try them
all, be prepared for a multi-year journey. There are hundreds of
companies, many with tens of models.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------

"George M. Middius" wrote in message

Brian said:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

Holy sh!t!!!

Am I deluding myself or did you just post a message that did not allude to
Arny, Arnii, Krueger, Krooger, Krooborg, Kroo****, ****borg (insert
permutation here) in any way.

Surely this has some deeper religious, moral and philosophical ramifications
for Usenet. Or are you just running a fever?

Schizoid Man said:

This is the clue that you may not be an audiophile.

Holy sh!t!!!

Am I deluding myself or did you just post a message that did not allude to
Arny, Arnii, Krueger, Krooger, Krooborg, Kroo****, ****borg (insert
permutation here) in any way.

Perhaps not directly. There's always the subtext though.

Surely this has some deeper religious, moral and philosophical ramifications
for Usenet. Or are you just running a fever?

I never viewed you as the sharpest knife in the drawer™. Care to dispute
the point?

(Barry Mann) wrote:

In , on 04/10/05
at 03:03 PM, Brian said:

I hope to listen to some speakers in the next few days and would like
some helpful advice on the types of things to listen for when judging
speakers. Some have said take your favourite recording to be played,
but as it's my favourite recording it's likely to sound great on all
speakers.
Can someone suggest any CD's and DVD movies that make good listening
tests.
The last speakers I listened to I used the Echo by Pink Floyd CD using
"Shine on you crazy diamond" and "Comfortable numb".
I also played the DVD Lennon Legend using "Imagine by John Lennon" and
I played the first battle scene in Gladiator.

This sort of question always results in "flames". Some of us who hang
out here were born old, wiser than anyone else, and cranky.

Audio is a journey. Everyone travels at their own pace and we all end
up at different destinations. My destination is just as good as yours,
yours is as good as mine. If you don't like your current location, a
more experienced traveler can be your guide -- but don't let the guide
take you to a place you don't want to be or convince you that there is
only one destination.

Listen to your regular music. It makes no sense to demo with ... (fill
in your least favorite type of music) if you never listen to it at
home. For some reason some customers assume that I listen to certain
types of music and either to flatter me or, assuming that I somehow
know what the "best" music is, they want to listen to my music.

Keep things simple. Travel with a few of your CD's and start with them.
Three CD's is a good number. Pick something simple that emphasizes your
favorite instrument. Next listen to something a little more complex, a
vocal is excellent if you listen to them. Finally, try something
complex, with a lot of instruments. The first two CD's will give you a
sense of the speakers' accuracy -- for you. The last will give you a
sense of what happens when everybody is in there slugging it out. If
the salesperson is any good, he or she may suggest something from the
store's collection that will help illustrate a point.

Spend some time with the prospective speaker. No matter what happened
with your three CD assault, if you are mysteriously tired of the
speaker after half an hour, move on to something else. You'll be able
to listen to the "right" speaker for hours.

Use common sense when picking your music. If subtile detail is your
thing, listening to Beatles stuff recorded just after they discovered
fuzz and distortion, is not productive.

Pay attention to what you hear at friends' homes. Take down brand names
and model numbers. What did you like and what did you not like? Is
there a common thread? (too much bass, not enough bass, no detail, too
much detail, a certain brand, etc.)

Typically, bass is more important to younger, male listeners than to
other groups. The transition begins in the early 20's. Keep in mind
that this is only "typical", your milage may vary. There are plenty of
middle aged female fans out there that can show their sons a thing or
two about thump. If you are a young male and bass is important, don't
let some ancient crumbum convince you that you shouldn't have bass. It
cuts the other way too. If you are a bit older and bass isn't quite as
important this time around, you are normal -- don't let some young
bull, sell you the thump he envies.

In spite of what the salesperson would like, don't buy too soon. While
it might be initially confusing, you'll quickly learn how to listen.
Everyone has their own "listening window". For some the window is open
for a half hour or so, then it's time to take a walk because you'll
become fatigued and everything will start to sound the same. The next
time out, you'll be smarter and things will go better and faster. Some
people can listen for hours. (and never seem to purchase anything)

Some sales people make excellent guides, others want to pick your
pocket as fast as possible. It is relatively easy to separate the two.
The guide will ask you which speaker sounds best, the pickpocket or
egocentric will tell you which sounds best.

Taking an "expert" friend along may help ... sometimes. In my
experience it can go either way. In some situations the actual customer
is too shy to speak to me and I have to communicate through the expert.
Other times the expert is steering the friend to the speakers the
expert envies, but are not appropriate for the customer. I this is
true, hopefully, I can earn the trust of the customer and they will
ditch the expert and come back later. In rare cases the expert friend
is actually helpful.

Rooms are also in the equation. The room is part of the speaker, the
speaker is part of the room. The showroom will never sound exactly the
same as your room (and the speaker will sound different if you move it
to a another location in your own room). If you have the option, pick a
dealer who has rooms that are not specially treated (unless you intend
to treat your room). It's hard to judge a speaker in some cavernous
hifi supermarket.

Done properly, with the right guide, you'll buy the right speaker even
though it will sound different in your own room. Tell the guide about
your room. If the guide has no comments about your room, pick a new
guide.

Taking a speaker home for a trial is helpful if you are down to two
models and can't decide which is right for you. If you want to try them
all, be prepared for a multi-year journey. There are hundreds of
companies, many with tens of models.

-----------------------------------------------------------
spam:
wordgame:123(abc):14 9 20 5 2 9 18 4 at 22 15 9 3 5 14 5 20 dot 3 15
13 (Barry Mann)
[sorry about the puzzle, spammers are ruining my mailbox]
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your advice Barry.
I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
are suitable for.
I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
meant to be heard.

Regards Brian

In rec.audio.tech Brian wrote:

(Barry's excellent advice snipped)

Thanks for your advice Barry.
I have a feeling that some speakers are more suitable for Rock music
and other speakers are suitable for Classical music, etc. It would be
nice if the manufactures put a label on their speakers as it what they
are suitable for.
I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
meant to be heard.

A few things I'd like to add here. Good speakers shouldn't be oriented for
classical or rock or smooth jazz. Good speakers should sound good, period.
That said, the compromises that have to be made in the real world may
favour one or the other. Recently I listened to some Meadowlarks with great
anticipation, and found myself disappointed. They sounded really startling
with vocals and small group jazz, but had _no_ bass at all! They wouldn't
be acceptable at any price without a subwoofer, in my opinion. Others though,
love them for their clarity and openness. Maybe if all you listen to is
Jazz at the Pawnshop...

Barry talked about picking music you're familiar with. More to the point,
pick recordings that you're familiar with (or take your favorite albums,
and become familiar with the recording). Get to know what a particular track
does really well, or has a hard time with. Figure out what parts are
challenging for a speaker to get right. Here are some examples from my own
listening routine.

1) So What? from Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" (the new remastered recording)
The pacing and recording of this album is so perfect that I sit
on the edge of my chair, waiting for Miles' horn to come in. If I
notice the speakers at all, then there's something wrong with them.
The string bass in the intro is particularly revealing--on good
speakers, it sounds exactly like a bass being played in front of
you, just off to the side. On many speakers, it's a little dull,
thuddy, or thin.
2) Get out of Town, from Holly Cole's "It Happened One Night"
Shiveringly good close-miked vocals, and again that revealing bass.
This will really highlight clarity, transparency and imaging. If
you close your eyes, you should be able to pinpoint every instrument
on stage.
3) The first song on The Mavens first album, which I don't have handy at
the moment.
Because my speakers have got to ROCK! :-) The chorus of this song
starts with an electronic bass, a kick drum, and a Chapman stick
punching the bottom end. If there are any flaws in the bass, (either
insufficient or boomy), this will reveal them in three notes.
4) A coupla tracks off of Jennifer Warne's "The Hunter."
This is a pure audiophile recording, and has everything going on
at the same time. Deep, clear, extended bass; delicate and close
vocals, and just lotsa warmth. It's very easy though, for it all
to get bunched up and muddy in the midrange. "Way Down Deep" is
particularly good.
5) The third (fourth?) track on Horace X's "Burst Peacock."
Hard driving relentless techno/acoustic celtic insanity. On good
speakers you can (a) pick out all of the various instruments (lead
violin, clarinet, lowland pipes) from the sequencer and electronic
drums; and (b) listen for more than five minutes without your ears
hurting. This is a VERY fatiguing album on many speakers.

So the exact music above isn't crucial (although I would recommend it all
to anyone interested), but the stuff it reveals is. That's what you need to
go into a store with.

Oh yeah, and don't even think of burning a CD from MP3s. Stick to the
original material.

Colin

Brian wrote:

Thanks Joseph for your comments.
See below for my reply.


Joseph Oberlander wrote:


OTOH, at least one piece should be vocal only. If the speaker
can't reproduce a female voice accurately, it just failed a
basic litmus test and should be avoided.


What is the litmus test?

Music was created at first by nature and our voices. Instruments
came much later, other than drums. That said, almost all music
has in it or tries to imitate various aspects of the human voice.

If the speaker cannot reproduce the human voice accurately,
you should move on to something different that can.

Now, I suppose if you listen to Cage or purely Indian Ragas,
then maybe it's not a big consideration, but most pieces have
vocal parts in them or are voiced in that range, because that's
also not coincidentally, where music sounds most pleasing to
our ears.

One should also be something like Jazz - and not the typical
high/low demo every dealer has, but sometihng that has parts and
a very tight midrange. Can you pick out the individual players
and/or focus on just one?

Do you mean speaker imaging where you can point to the place where the
singer appears to be?

No, literally pick out the singers or musicians. Can you
tune out the bass player and listen to the rhythm guitarist
alone? Can you do the reverse? Most cheap speakers smear the
sound together too much in the midrange to easily be able to
replay a piece several times and go over it/analyze it.

The easier a speaker does this, I find, that the less it
ends up being fatiguing. Ususally they image a bit better, too.

Now, you don't have to spend huge sums to pass these basic
levels of clarity and quality. My "smaller"(heh) speakers cost
a whopping $300 each and are huge studio monitors. Versions
that sound nearly as good in a bookshelf sized package can
be had for about $300-$400 a pair, new.

Can you hear it all together coherently?
How far back can you stand before it starts to blur together
(the boombox/clock radio effect - it just sounds like a single
sound source that's "there" making noise)? 0 feet? 20 feet? 50?

So the you can move back from the speakers and hear them without a
blur the better the speakers are?
I only have a small room for the speakers.

Heh - well, the point still is valid, though in your case,
that's good as it means you can get by with smaller speakers
as a rule. 5-7 inch woofers should easily suffice.

I have Kef speakers (C25 model) that I brought about 15 years
ago...I'm wondering if Kef have improved on their speakers since.

Ah. In some ways, yes(their expensive stuff), and in others,
not really(their consumer level junk). Tannoy also went the
cheaper and high end route(as did Toyota and Honda), which
still is a better thing in the end, IMO, as you do get a lot
of Q.C. and expertiese from their decades of higher end
products that filters down to their more reasonably priced
products. But only to a point.

What's the budget and listening enviironment? For purely
stereo, on a budget, I like a few smaller firms myself as
I feel that it's like buying a guitar - all of the stuff
that's made in Korea and China is pretty much adequate
stuff at best compared to a U.S. or European guitar, so
many small firms do better jobs at the low end than
a big company that's charging you for its name as if the
speakers are even close to the level of their real high
end products.(Toyota and Honda also do this lately - sigh)

At the Circuit City end of the scale, you could make
a better speaker from a kit.

My favorites for good sound on a budget are Ellis Audio,
NoRh, Ascend Acoustics, and of course, used.

I'm trying to get away from speakers that are too bright and falsely
colour music, these type of speakers seem to be suitable for listening
to for short periods. I'm hoping to give more life to my old CD's by
finding speakers that will faithfully place the CD's as they were
meant to be heard.

I was also impressed with the Tannoy Saturns(note - their S6
towers are virtually identical to their S8s in sound), though
they stopped making them a while back. The bookshelf versions
of these sound great, but have to be driven to about 90db to
actually sound like that, which may be a bit much for a small
listening space. The towers are much more forgiving, and have
the "stand" built in.

Me - I have JBL 4400 series monitors. Not a subtle speaker
decor-wise - a big box that makes good sound. I'm probably
going to switch to planars in a year or two, though, as
the things aren't that great on microdynamics.

Of course, if you have a chunk of money, you could also
look into planar and hybrid electrostatic speakers. Martin
Logan makes a nice hybrid planar speaker now that's quite
decent sounding, for instance.