"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1100392879k@trad...

A combination of a Fishman pickup of some sort and a small mic mounted
inside the guitar.

The latest Fishman with no controls, I think it's called Acoustic Matrix,
sounds amazing although we had some RFI issues near a TV transmitter and had
to downgrade to an earlier, more ordinary sounding version. The newer one
sounded great with no mike at all.

--
Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN
Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
615.385.8051 http://www.hyperback.com

(Scott Dorsey) laid this on me:

danny wrote:

Thanks for the input. I'll look into those – those names are new to
me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are
writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then
that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the
sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you
are right about the sound.

Do you care what your guitar sounds like?

If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly.

If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it
won't be any trouble at all.
--scott

It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
work.
It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.
Even the most average SDC on acoustics sound great, about 1,000,000 better
than the best pickups, but unfortunately, it isn't always the best option. As
with many folks in our shoes, we need to be flexible to account for variances
in the situation.
If I walk in and the place is set up for acoustic music, and he knows
what he's doing, we set up mics and get tones. If the guy strolls in 15
minutes before showtime, looks at my banjo and says "hey, cool ukelele", we
plug in.
Unfortunately, we do get both.

Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

seans_at_efn.org
http://www.efn.org/~seans

(Scott Dorsey) laid this on me:

danny wrote:

Thanks for the input. I'll look into those – those names are new to
me. I am not sure what you mean buy adding a condenser but if you are
writing about a condenser mike as opposed to a built in pickup, then
that luxury isn't something I can use for live. I'd love to have the
sound but the bother of it won't be worth it, though thanks since you
are right about the sound.

Do you care what your guitar sounds like?

If so, honestly, it's worth the bother to get a mike and use it properly.

If you don't, well, get an Ovation. It won't sound very good, but it
won't be any trouble at all.
--scott

It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
work.
It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.
Even the most average SDC on acoustics sound great, about 1,000,000 better
than the best pickups, but unfortunately, it isn't always the best option. As
with many folks in our shoes, we need to be flexible to account for variances
in the situation.
If I walk in and the place is set up for acoustic music, and he knows
what he's doing, we set up mics and get tones. If the guy strolls in 15
minutes before showtime, looks at my banjo and says "hey, cool ukelele", we
plug in.
Unfortunately, we do get both.

Sean
--
There is an old saying that if a million monkeys
typed on a million keyboards for a million years,
eventually all the works of Shakespeare would be produced.
Now, thanks to Usenet, we know this is not true.

seans_at_efn.org
http://www.efn.org/~seans

In article l writes:

It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
work.
It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.

Nope, it's the guy in the back of the GUITAR that will make or break
the setup. If he's going to use a conventional mic on a conventional
stand, then he has to stand pretty much in one place, perhaps moving
around a bit to control the volume and tone much as a vocalist works a
microphone.

If he's going to clown around on stage while swinging his pick-holding
fist over the guitar strings and making some strumming sounds, then he
needs something else. This could be an electromagnetic pickup on the
strings, a mechanical (contact) pickup somewhere on the body of the
guitar, a microphone attached to the guitar that moves along with it,
or a combination of those. Then, and only then, will the guy in the
back of the board have something that he can control.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article l writes:

It's not the mic in front of the guitar that is important to make this
work.
It's the guy in back of the board who will make or break this setup.

Nope, it's the guy in the back of the GUITAR that will make or break
the setup. If he's going to use a conventional mic on a conventional
stand, then he has to stand pretty much in one place, perhaps moving
around a bit to control the volume and tone much as a vocalist works a
microphone.

If he's going to clown around on stage while swinging his pick-holding
fist over the guitar strings and making some strumming sounds, then he
needs something else. This could be an electromagnetic pickup on the
strings, a mechanical (contact) pickup somewhere on the body of the
guitar, a microphone attached to the guitar that moves along with it,
or a combination of those. Then, and only then, will the guy in the
back of the board have something that he can control.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.

One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.

Godd luck,
Tim T

I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.

One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.

Godd luck,
Tim T

(Tim Terral) wrote in message . com...
I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.

One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.

Godd luck,
Tim T

I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei

(Tim Terral) wrote in message . com...
I have put a K&K Trinity system (a dual source system) in 2 of my
guitars (Santa Cruz Tony Rice and Martin D-18CW, Clarence White model)
and a K&K Western pick-up in a Martin D35. I did a lot of research and
found the K&K to be the best pickup for my needs, which is as natural
a sound a possible. I want it to sound like the guitar does
acoustically, only louder (who doesn't). The K&K sounds very good and
I felt beat out the LR Baggs Dual Source and anything Fishman makes,
but again this is based on my tastes. On the Santa Cruz I use a Raven
Labs pre and on the D-18CW I use the belt clip Pre that comes with the
K&K pick-up system. Both sound great, although I prefer the Raven Labs
as it is more flexible. K&K has a newer rack mount version of their
preamp that is more flexible than the beltclip version.

One of the things I like best about the K&K is that you do not have to
alter your guitar at all - no holes, etc.

Godd luck,
Tim T

I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei

The Sunrise sounds very nice.


aht (Mondoslug1) wrote in message ...

I have an HD28 with an LR Bags (lb6) and run it through a Pendulum
Acoustic pre and tc chorus . If you add a condenser you'll get a
really great clear sound. You can find the Pendulums on Ebay for under
$300.

show me show me



T

The Sunrise sounds very nice.


aht (Mondoslug1) wrote in message ...

I have an HD28 with an LR Bags (lb6) and run it through a Pendulum
Acoustic pre and tc chorus . If you add a condenser you'll get a
really great clear sound. You can find the Pendulums on Ebay for under
$300.

show me show me



T

"Gary Flanigan" wrote in message
om...
The Sunrise sounds very nice.

What he said. I went through a couple of dozen pickups before I came to the
Sunrise. I put it in my guitar around 15 years ago (can that be right???),
and it hasn't been out since.

And then I bought another one so that I could have a spare.

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca

"Gary Flanigan" wrote in message
om...
The Sunrise sounds very nice.

What he said. I went through a couple of dozen pickups before I came to the
Sunrise. I put it in my guitar around 15 years ago (can that be right???),
and it hasn't been out since.

And then I bought another one so that I could have a spare.

Dave O'Heare
oheareATmagmaDOTca

Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Curious... why do you ask?

Neil Henderson

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Curious... why do you ask?

Neil Henderson

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100310146k@trad...
In article writes:

Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.

I know that this approach has been popular over the last several years
(especially in tandem with another type of pickup), but I didn't have
much use for it. I had the "Greg Gualtieri" setup in my Gibson J-45:
an internal AKG pickup, plus a Sunrise, going through the Pendulum
SPS-1 preamp. This is a pretty top-line setup, and even after a lot of
experimentation, I never got a sound that I thought was better than a
good piezo pickup on its own.

Now, this has nothing to do with the quality of Greg's advice or
Pendulum equipment (both top-notch): I think it just comes down to the
fact that I don't like the sound of the *inside* of my guitar, I like
how it sounds on the outside. :-)

Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

Obviously, YMMV (to the OP), but think about simpler setups, at least
in the beginning. You'll save money, you'll have less stuff to carry
with you, and you can always augment your sound with a good external
mike when that is necessary or convenient. With some of these
multi-source systems, you have no choice but to drag around a fancy
outboard preamp, even if you're just doing an open mike or sitting in
for a few tunes.

I'd look at under-saddle pickups from Highlander, Fishman and Baggs as
a good start. They'll be less than $200, and maybe $50 to install.

Cheers,
Dave (off to the local open mike)

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1100310146k@trad...
In article writes:

Why not experiment with a good quality miniature microphone mounted on
or in the guitar. Crown and Countryman are popular with guitarists.
You'll need a preamp for it, and that's your volume control.

I know that this approach has been popular over the last several years
(especially in tandem with another type of pickup), but I didn't have
much use for it. I had the "Greg Gualtieri" setup in my Gibson J-45:
an internal AKG pickup, plus a Sunrise, going through the Pendulum
SPS-1 preamp. This is a pretty top-line setup, and even after a lot of
experimentation, I never got a sound that I thought was better than a
good piezo pickup on its own.

Now, this has nothing to do with the quality of Greg's advice or
Pendulum equipment (both top-notch): I think it just comes down to the
fact that I don't like the sound of the *inside* of my guitar, I like
how it sounds on the outside. :-)

Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

Obviously, YMMV (to the OP), but think about simpler setups, at least
in the beginning. You'll save money, you'll have less stuff to carry
with you, and you can always augment your sound with a good external
mike when that is necessary or convenient. With some of these
multi-source systems, you have no choice but to drag around a fancy
outboard preamp, even if you're just doing an open mike or sitting in
for a few tunes.

I'd look at under-saddle pickups from Highlander, Fishman and Baggs as
a good start. They'll be less than $200, and maybe $50 to install.

Cheers,
Dave (off to the local open mike)

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:05:45 GMT, "Neil Henderson"
wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
self-resonant frequencies in hertz.
ISTR reading of 7,000 turns of (rather fine gauge) wire for a
pickup, and there's some moderate amount of iron inside the winding
(with of course a magnet on the back for "magnetic bias"), if that
helps calculate the inductance at all. And of course, increasing turns
increases resistance, inductance, and interwinding capacitance, and so
lowers the resonant frequency and high-end response (both below and
especially above the resonant frequency).
Okay, enough of my BS guessing, here are possible pointers to real
info: rec.music.makers.builders (some people there wind their own
pickups); http://www.stew-mac.com sells pickups, might have tech info
on them. Looking now, they even sell PICKUP KITS. Here's a link on
pickup winding, scroll to the bottom to see some "typical" specs:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...5.html#details


Curious... why do you ask?

My guess is he's got an electric guitar or two, he's taken out the
pickups and made measurements, and wonders if these are "typical."

Neil Henderson


-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

On Wed, 17 Nov 2004 03:05:45 GMT, "Neil Henderson"
wrote:

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
self-resonant frequencies in hertz.
ISTR reading of 7,000 turns of (rather fine gauge) wire for a
pickup, and there's some moderate amount of iron inside the winding
(with of course a magnet on the back for "magnetic bias"), if that
helps calculate the inductance at all. And of course, increasing turns
increases resistance, inductance, and interwinding capacitance, and so
lowers the resonant frequency and high-end response (both below and
especially above the resonant frequency).
Okay, enough of my BS guessing, here are possible pointers to real
info: rec.music.makers.builders (some people there wind their own
pickups); http://www.stew-mac.com sells pickups, might have tech info
on them. Looking now, they even sell PICKUP KITS. Here's a link on
pickup winding, scroll to the bottom to see some "typical" specs:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...5.html#details


Curious... why do you ask?

My guess is he's got an electric guitar or two, he's taken out the
pickups and made measurements, and wonders if these are "typical."

Neil Henderson


-----
http://mindspring.com/~benbradley

Ben Bradley wrote:


Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
self-resonant frequencies in hertz.


Ohms.

Ben Bradley wrote:


Just what numbers are those? I doubt they're inductance in Henrys,
but they might be DC resistances in ohms, and they could also be
self-resonant frequencies in hertz.


Ohms.

Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
interface.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there, but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the instrument-preamp
interface.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

In article writes:

Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

I heard those at NAMM last year or two and thought they sounded pretty
good in the situation (playing thorugh speakers-on-sticks in a noisy
exhibit hall, across from the woodworking power tools booth) but that
they still sounded a little "plasticky." Not nearly as much as some
piezo pickups, and certainly a workable sound, but not the true
acoustic sound of the guitar.

I also played with the Taylor built-in system with the Neve-designed
preamp/EQ external box, and listening on headphones (the only thing
available) I wasn't able to get anything that sounded close to an
acoustic guitar tone from it. I figured that with Taylor's experience
with acoustic guitars and their amplification, they should have done
it right and maybe I just hadn't found the right settings. But at AES
this year, they had a little booth (rather than a whole room like they
have at NAMM) and I talked with one of the engineers about it, asking
if they were going for an acoustic-electric sound or if I just wasn't
doing it right. He told me "It's a different sound, and it's very
flexible" - something with which I could agree. You can get a wide
range of tonality, but nothing that makes the pickups and electronics
disappear.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

In article writes:

Seriously, though, I've switched to Highlander piezo pickups on all my
instuments, and I always get a good, strong, reasonably accurate
sound, without much of the quack that piezos are known for.

I heard those at NAMM last year or two and thought they sounded pretty
good in the situation (playing thorugh speakers-on-sticks in a noisy
exhibit hall, across from the woodworking power tools booth) but that
they still sounded a little "plasticky." Not nearly as much as some
piezo pickups, and certainly a workable sound, but not the true
acoustic sound of the guitar.

I also played with the Taylor built-in system with the Neve-designed
preamp/EQ external box, and listening on headphones (the only thing
available) I wasn't able to get anything that sounded close to an
acoustic guitar tone from it. I figured that with Taylor's experience
with acoustic guitars and their amplification, they should have done
it right and maybe I just hadn't found the right settings. But at AES
this year, they had a little booth (rather than a whole room like they
have at NAMM) and I talked with one of the engineers about it, asking
if they were going for an acoustic-electric sound or if I just wasn't
doing it right. He told me "It's a different sound, and it's very
flexible" - something with which I could agree. You can get a wide
range of tonality, but nothing that makes the pickups and electronics
disappear.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low
as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to
16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there,
but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the
instrument-preamp
interface.

From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
interesting interface indeed.

Peace,
Paul

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low
as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to
16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there,
but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the
instrument-preamp
interface.

From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
interesting interface indeed.

Peace,
Paul

I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei


That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the
Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The
difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up,
internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come
with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read
numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That
being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes
of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's
bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter
output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as
hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if
possible.

Tim T

I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei


That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the
Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The
difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up,
internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come
with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read
numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That
being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes
of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's
bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter
output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as
hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if
possible.

Tim T

Stock strat pickups are 5.5k to 6.5k ohms. Tele lead pups are around
7k, stock Gibson humbuckers are also around 7-8k resistance.

A lot of the new custom pickups are overwound to far beyond this, up
to 10-14k. They sound like **** IMO but some people like to clobber
the amp imputs.

Al

On 16 Nov 2004 21:16:02 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
--scott

Stock strat pickups are 5.5k to 6.5k ohms. Tele lead pups are around
7k, stock Gibson humbuckers are also around 7-8k resistance.

A lot of the new custom pickups are overwound to far beyond this, up
to 10-14k. They sound like **** IMO but some people like to clobber
the amp imputs.

Al

On 16 Nov 2004 21:16:02 -0500, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?
--scott

I would seriously consider a B-Band product, such as the A2.2 system. Very
nice.

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

I would seriously consider a B-Band product, such as the A2.2 system. Very
nice.

George Reiswig
Song of the River Music

Paul Stamler wrote:

From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
interesting interface indeed.

Wow. That explains a lot. I was expecting something in the 1H or less
region. That's scary. I gotta do the math, but that's very interesting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Paul Stamler wrote:

From the Bill Lawrence site, the inductance of a Strat pickup is about 2.3H,
a Gibson PAF is about 4.4H and some of the hot "distortion" pickups are
about 8H or higher. Combine that with the resistances quoted above, cable
capacitance and Miller capacitance from the input tube, and you get an
interesting interface indeed.

Wow. That explains a lot. I was expecting something in the 1H or less
region. That's scary. I gotta do the math, but that's very interesting.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low
as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there,
but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Yes, impedances - sorry, should've said so.


Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the
instrument-preamp
interface.

Weird, wacky **** DeWd.
As you can imagine, the type/composition of wire, gauge thereof, as well as
the magnet material & strength all play a part, too.

Neil Henderson

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Neil Henderson wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Okay, what are typical inductances and DC resistances of wirewound
pickups?
What kind of numbers should I expect to see?

In the 5k-6k range for "vintage" sounding single coil Strat p'ups, in the
7k+ range for hotter ones. Humbuckers vary a LOT... I've seen them as low
as
7k for the pair of coils, for a really mellow sound, all the way up to 16k
for pretty hot ones. This would be for non-active pickups, BTW. P-90-type
winds seem to vary a lot also... IIRC 8k-9k is the starting point there,
but
there's a lot of room on those bobbins for really hot winds.

Those sound like impedances and not inductances. I'm not going to ask the
impedance because I'm not sure you can model a pickup as being a perfect
current source and get anything much useful out of it.

Yes, impedances - sorry, should've said so.


Curious... why do you ask?

I'm trying to get a sense of what actually happens at the
instrument-preamp
interface.

Weird, wacky **** DeWd.
As you can imagine, the type/composition of wire, gauge thereof, as well as
the magnet material & strength all play a part, too.

Neil Henderson

(Tim Terral) wrote in message . com...
I went and played with a guitar that had a K&K set up today. There
were 3 pick ups inside under the bridge but I can't tell you want
model it is. I think I will put it in my martin hd28 to try it before
I do my other guitar.

I thought it sounded very good too. Thanks for the input - the guy at
buffalo brothers is going to install it for $175

Thanks

Danny Taddei


That was probaly the Pure Western you played, since the price of the
Trinity was $285.00 when I bought mine a few years back. The
difference will be the Trinity comes with the Pure Western Pick-up,
internal microphone and preamp, while the Pure Western does not come
with the microphone or the preamp. Interestingly enough, I have read
numerous times that the pick-up is hot enough without a preamp. That
being said, I would still recommend a preamp. Also, K&K have 2 sizes
of the Pure Western pick-up elements, based on the size of one's
bridge plate. Most people use the regular size which has a hotter
output. I have both and the smaller pick-up elements (3) are not as
hot, therefore I would recommend going with the standard size if
possible.

Tim T

I'm glad you told me that. I would rather have an active system. I
think the standard size will fit on the HD28. I was in there the other
day with my guitar but I had to leave it so I opted to bring it back.
Looks like I made a good move:-) I'll let you know how it turns out
after I get it in there.

Thanks again