How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts toward
other people? Doesn't the music you're hobby presumeably allows you to enjoy
afford any pleasure or do you listen to 'Death Metal' all day?

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts toward
other people? Doesn't the music you're hobby presumeably allows you to
enjoy
afford any pleasure or do you listen to 'Death Metal' all day?



pardon the spelling this head wound is really annoying.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts toward
other people? Doesn't the music you're hobby presumeably allows you to
enjoy
afford any pleasure or do you listen to 'Death Metal' all day?

I don't behave, or feel, toward other people in the manner that might be
imagined from my treatment of Arny the Ogre or Mikey the Bug Eater. Brian L.
McCarty is a different issue; he is a genuinely malevolent person who
deserves all the abuse he receives.

There seems to be an unwritten understanding that this is a "place"
unfettered by normal decorum. When I originally stumbled upon this group, I
had a desire to change that. After further consideration of the maxim which
ends "and God grant me the wisdom to know the difference", I concluded that
there was no moral issue, because the participants are here with the
understanding given by the common maxim, "If you want to give it, you have
to take it."

One just has to remember not to take the mock bitterness back into one's
"real life." Friends are precious.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts
toward
other people? Doesn't the music you're hobby presumeably allows you to
enjoy
afford any pleasure or do you listen to 'Death Metal' all day?

I don't behave, or feel, toward other people in the manner that might be
imagined from my treatment of Arny the Ogre or Mikey the Bug Eater. Brian
L.
McCarty is a different issue; he is a genuinely malevolent person who
deserves all the abuse he receives.

There seems to be an unwritten understanding that this is a "place"
unfettered by normal decorum. When I originally stumbled upon this group,
I
had a desire to change that. After further consideration of the maxim
which
ends "and God grant me the wisdom to know the difference", I concluded
that
there was no moral issue, because the participants are here with the
understanding given by the common maxim, "If you want to give it, you have
to take it."

One just has to remember not to take the mock bitterness back into one's
"real life." Friends are precious.



You touch on my point and i am not going to be saying anything furthur
on the subjcet when you quote the final maxim. Why "want to give" in the
first place? I'm not here to hold anyone accountable , just observing and
wondering outloud.I had thought the technical/mathematical nature of audio
was something from which personal rivalries and even the appearance of
hostile bitterness would slide off like capacitor oil off teflon cable
covering since when dealing with data specs and the like there wouldn't seem
to be any room for arguments the numbers speaking for themselves.

Robert Morein said:

One just has to remember not to take the mock bitterness back into one's
"real life." Friends are precious.

I hear sugar futures are down. Good investment, Bobo.

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...

"Robert Morein" wrote in message
...

"Massive Head Wound Harry" wrote in message
...
How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts
toward
other people? Doesn't the music you're hobby presumeably allows you to
enjoy
afford any pleasure or do you listen to 'Death Metal' all day?

I don't behave, or feel, toward other people in the manner that might be
imagined from my treatment of Arny the Ogre or Mikey the Bug Eater. Brian
L.
McCarty is a different issue; he is a genuinely malevolent person who
deserves all the abuse he receives.

There seems to be an unwritten understanding that this is a "place"
unfettered by normal decorum. When I originally stumbled upon this group,
I
had a desire to change that. After further consideration of the maxim
which
ends "and God grant me the wisdom to know the difference", I concluded
that
there was no moral issue, because the participants are here with the
understanding given by the common maxim, "If you want to give it, you
have
to take it."

One just has to remember not to take the mock bitterness back into one's
"real life." Friends are precious.



You touch on my point and i am not going to be saying anything furthur
on the subjcet when you quote the final maxim. Why "want to give" in the
first place? I'm not here to hold anyone accountable , just observing and
wondering outloud.I had thought the technical/mathematical nature of audio
was something from which personal rivalries and even the appearance of
hostile bitterness would slide off like capacitor oil off teflon cable
covering since when dealing with data specs and the like there wouldn't
seem
to be any room for arguments the numbers speaking for themselves.

Aye, that's the rub. The RAO row is divided along the lines of "objective
vs. subjective." The objectivists believe that numbers tell all. The
subjectivists either have no faith in numbers, or accuse the objectivists of
appropriating and manipulating to stoke their own egos.

You have no reason to believe me any more than anyone else, but this is my
analysis:

1. Science, and objective methods, are not bad things to apply to problems.
However, there is such a thing as bad science, or "pseudoscience", which
comes about when persons are simply not widely skilled enough to detect the
flaws and limitations in their methods, and lack the money to do things the
right way. A lot of this has to do with the personalities, rather than the
domain of investigation. It would appear that audio investigation attracts
amateurs. Some have a modicum of talent; some have none at all; but they
find usenet a place where they can spend their small time on Earth braying
out a message so that they can compliment themselves as purveyors of new
truth.

2. The primary message of the above-named factions seems to be, "You can't
hear the difference between this, and that", and "you're not a scientist, so
you're not entitled to talk about what you can hear." The natural reaction
of one so dissed is displeasure at being disenfranchised.

3. We have a goodly compliment of subjectivists, who, not being professional
debunkers, use the primary weapon of their disposal: social sophistication,
and wit with the glint of a polished stiletto. To you, their tactics may
seem cruel, but, as they are quite sure they hear things the "objectivists"
claim they cannot, and do not possess the quantity of oscilloscopes, signal
sources, and null bridges to argue the point the way the pseudoscientists
would, we cannot deny them the comfort of their favorite weapon.

As I embrace science, and at the same time, believe I hear things the
"objectivists" claim I cannot, I am caught in the middle. Yet while I
coexist easily with the subjectivists, my innate respect for science has
bought me no accomodation from the objectivists at all. It is the boring,
repetitive, intolerant litany of the rao objectivist clique that fuels the
unending disharmony.

"George M. Middius" cmndr [underscore] george [at] comcast [dot] net wrote
in message ...


Robert Morein said:

One just has to remember not to take the mock bitterness back into one's
"real life." Friends are precious.

I hear sugar futures are down. Good investment, Bobo.

See http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/SU/M
and http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/SU/W

Still above the trendline.

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:

How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts toward
other people?

I suspect the influence of the music has long ceased to be of importance to such
embittered souls as 'George Middius' and his ilk.

Graham

Pooh Bear wrote:

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:

How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts toward
other people?

I suspect the influence of the music has long ceased to be of importance to such
embittered souls as 'George Middius' and his ilk.

George et al. have managed to drag audio into the sewer. Good work,
gang. But objectivists will always be here on the side of rationality,
evidence, logic, and truth no matter how hard George and his friends
try to drive us away with their steady stream of abuse. There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

--124

"124" wrote in message
oups.com...

George et al. have managed to drag audio into the sewer. Good work,
gang. But objectivists will always be here on the side of rationality,
evidence, logic, and truth no matter how hard George and his friends
try to drive us away with their steady stream of abuse. (insert
mightymouse.wav here) There are, however, some pleasant subjectivists
here.

--124




--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"124" wrote in message
oups.com...
Pooh Bear wrote:

Massive Head Wound Harry wrote:

How can people enjoy music with so much bitterness in their hearts
toward
other people?

I suspect the influence of the music has long ceased to be of importance
to such
embittered souls as 'George Middius' and his ilk.

George et al. have managed to drag audio into the sewer. Good work,
gang.

I don't think so. Every implacable enemy deserves an implacable enemy. In
this case, George handles two of them.

But objectivists will always be here on the side of rationality,
evidence, logic, and truth no matter how hard George and his friends
try to drive us away with their steady stream of abuse.

The quality of that person's statements and actions is not assured by his
label. Good and bad people are found on both sides. Some are limited by
personality, whilst others by intelligence. In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that prevent him from rising
to his full potential.

But the fact of Mikey is, unfortunately, an important exception to your
statement above. Mikey finds and cites the worst of what people have done.
For whatever reason, intelligence or education, he has no understanding of
the scientific method whatsoever. I suspect it is only Arny's loneliness
that prevents him from denouncing Mikey.

There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

Sure. My hifi buddy is a dedicated subjectivist, profoundly influenced by
the look and feel of equipment. But we contrast this to my rather cold
hearted approach for mutual amusement. Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist camp.

Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

--124

"124" wrote in message
ups.com...
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist
camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

--124

That's your subjective opinion.

"124" wrote in
message
ups.com
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of
the objectivist camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

"124" wrote in message
ups.com...
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist
camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

--124


Objectivists are not open to constructive self criticism?
The Bible has been written and not one word is open to change.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
.. .

"124" wrote in message
ups.com...
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist
camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

--124


Objectivists are not open to constructive self criticism?
The Bible has been written and not one word is open to change.


Bull****. Challenge away, just do so in a reliable repeatable way.

wrote in message
nk.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
.. .

"124" wrote in message
ups.com...
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of the objectivist
camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

--124


Objectivists are not open to constructive self criticism?
The Bible has been written and not one word is open to change.


Bull****. Challenge away, just do so in a reliable repeatable way.


ok, DBT does not remove the bias that 'things will sound the same'.



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
-------http://www.NewsDemon.com------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:56:24 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that prevent him from rising
to his full potential.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, Robert.

But the fact of Mikey is, unfortunately, an important exception to your
statement above. Mikey finds and cites the worst of what people have done.
For whatever reason, intelligence or education, he has no understanding of
the scientific method whatsoever. I suspect it is only Arny's loneliness
that prevents him from denouncing Mikey.

This is a very sad possibility to contemplate. I'm getting a little
teary....


There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

Sure. My hifi buddy is a dedicated subjectivist, profoundly influenced by
the look and feel of equipment.

Yikes, don't tell them that! That's their argument.

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:36:50 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"124" wrote in
message
oups.com
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of
the objectivist camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive argument and
scientific logic no matter who advances it. There at least we have
something in common. I refuse to set up my tent in either camp as I
see some merit in the arguments on both sides. As soon as one commits
to a "side", one introduces the element of competition and the
inevitable bias that goes with it. You've committed yourself to the
usefullness and veracity of ABX and are therefore not open to
criticism of ABX. That's what makes your posts so predictable.

"paul packer" wrote in message

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 16:36:50 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"124" wrote in
message
ups.com
Robert Morein wrote:

Personally, I think of myself as a an
objectivist who challenges the methods and motives of
the objectivist camp.

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive argument
and scientific logic no matter who advances it.

Actually Ropbert is a non-functional member of society, by why would one
let that change one's evaluation of his ideas?

There at least we have something in common.

One of the turning points in life that you seem to have missed Paul, is that
having an open mind does not mean having holes in one's head.

I refuse to set up my
tent in either camp as I see some merit in the arguments
on both sides.

OK so you don't set up your tent and get to sleep out in the rain. No skin
off my nose!

As soon as one commits to a "side", one
introduces the element of competition and the inevitable
bias that goes with it.

Then explain your overwhelming support for the golden eared side of the
argument, Paul.

You've committed yourself to the
usefullness and veracity of ABX and are therefore not
open to criticism of ABX.

Huh? I can criticise ABX better than most because trhough experience with it
I know it and its faults better than most.

That's what makes your posts so predictable.

If irony killed!

"paul packer" wrote in message

On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:56:24 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that
prevent him from rising to his full potential.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, Robert.

The irony is that Robert is primarily referring to himself.

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive argument
and scientific logic no matter who advances it.

Actually Ropbert is a non-functional member of society

Really? You appear to know much more about him than I do. Or maybe
you've just been reading too many of the posts of Sylvan Morein.

, by why would one

Eh?

let that change one's evaluation of his ideas?

Because even if he were non-functional, that would not necessarily
invalidate his thought processes.

There at least we have something in common.

One of the turning points in life that you seem to have missed Paul, is that
having an open mind does not mean having holes in one's head.

Sense of humour at last, Arnie? Or just a different approach to the
debating trade?

I refuse to set up my
tent in either camp as I see some merit in the arguments
on both sides.

OK so you don't set up your tent and get to sleep out in the rain. No skin
off my nose!

Ah, I see. Arnie's being funny. Funny Arnie!

As soon as one commits to a "side", one
introduces the element of competition and the inevitable
bias that goes with it.

Then explain your overwhelming support for the golden eared side of the
argument, Paul.

Overwhelming, Arnie? Better look up that word. There's a post
elsewhere that claims I'm beginning to sound like an objectivist. You
guys can't have it both ways.

You've committed yourself to the
usefullness and veracity of ABX and are therefore not
open to criticism of ABX.

Huh? I can criticise ABX better than most because trhough experience with it
I know it and its faults better than most.

Good. Perhaps you'd like to list them.

That's what makes your posts so predictable.

If irony killed!

Maybe you'd like to tell me what I'm going to post next.

"paul packer" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive argument
and scientific logic no matter who advances it.

Actually Ropbert is a non-functional member of society

Really? You appear to know much more about him than I do.
Or maybe you've just been reading too many of the posts
of Sylvan Morein.

No, all that is needed is to read an independent source, like any number of
regular newspapers.

Try this retrieval in google:

philadelphia morein supreme

"paul packer" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You've committed yourself to the
usefullness and veracity of ABX and are therefore not
open to criticism of ABX.

Huh? I can criticise ABX better than most because
trhough experience with it I know it and its faults
better than most.

Good. Perhaps you'd like to list them.

Been there, done that, Paul. But since you are intellectually lazy, poorly
informed and hard to inform on the topic of subjective testing, I'll briefly
go over them again.

For openers, read the "10 requirements" on the PCABX web site and see what
the major points address. Those items pretty well cover the major weaknesses
of ABX and stand as weaknesses of ABX because not everybody is addressing
them or has addressed them.

For example if you take the old Stereo Review DBT articles, compare them to
the "10 requirements" the SR DBT articles come up very weak.

Then there's the slight problem that ABX is a test for differences, and does
not formally address preferences. This is one reason why ABC/hr was
developed.

ABX is also more awkward and time-consuming than other blind testing
methodologies for actually finding hearing thresholds. An alternative
approach is alluded to in the Dolby Jitter AES paper.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"paul packer" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive argument
and scientific logic no matter who advances it.

Actually Ropbert is a non-functional member of society

Really? You appear to know much more about him than I do.
Or maybe you've just been reading too many of the posts
of Sylvan Morein.

No, all that is needed is to read an independent source, like any number
of regular newspapers.

Try this retrieval in google:

philadelphia morein supreme

Arny, you're actually citing posts by Brian L. McCarty about my dispute with
Drexel University? If that is your intent, be warned you lower yourself to
the level of those who refer to your family tragedy, and those who associate
you with NAMBLA.

A single newspaper article was written about this case, at my request.. I
was rather pleased with the article, as I felt that it fairly portrayed the
conflict. McCarty picked up on the article, and provided his own commentary
in the form of a condemnation.

I've been pretty nice to you lately, but as George Middius remarks, your
reaction tends to be that of a crocodile that bites indiscriminately. This
condemnation of me has not been recently preceded by any instigation on my
part.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:56:24 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that prevent him from rising
to his full potential.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, Robert.

I was actually referring to Arny, who has just posted a very nasty slur
about me.

But the fact of Mikey is, unfortunately, an important exception to your
statement above. Mikey finds and cites the worst of what people have done.
For whatever reason, intelligence or education, he has no understanding of
the scientific method whatsoever. I suspect it is only Arny's loneliness
that prevents him from denouncing Mikey.

This is a very sad possibility to contemplate. I'm getting a little
teary....

Whenever you feel sad, Paul, retreat to "The Village of the Happy Nice
People" -- actually the sarcastic example of a screenplay or novel that will
never be written.


There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

Sure. My hifi buddy is a dedicated subjectivist, profoundly influenced by
the look and feel of equipment.

Yikes, don't tell them that! That's their argument.

Another friend of mine has a favorite quote, by J.S. Mill. I'm not sure I
have it exactly right, but it's approximately, "Truth is found at the
meeting of opposites."
But in r.a.o., it's not about the issues. Arny's recent slur is indicative
of that. He is seething with anger, perhaps about his dead son, or the fact
that life did not accord him all the academic achievements he is perhaps
capable of. Some people have personalities that warp easily.. Arny is one of
these.

"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"paul packer" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive
argument and scientific logic no matter who advances
it.

Actually Robert is a non-functional member of society

Really? You appear to know much more about him than I
do. Or maybe you've just been reading too many of the
posts of Sylvan Morein.

No, all that is needed is to read an independent source,
like any number of regular newspapers.

Try this retrieval in google:

philadelphia morein supreme

Arny, you're actually citing posts by Brian L. McCarty
about my dispute with Drexel University?

Not at all. I'm citing a relevant fact that has been reported in any number
of newspapers.

If that is your
intent, be warned you lower yourself to the level of
those who refer to your family tragedy, and those who
associate you with NAMBLA.

Not at all. Those references on RAO are mostly imaginary. The family tragedy
was real but the widely-circulated Middius/Sackman/Briggs/et al version of
the story is entirely fictional. The NAMBLA references are tracable to a
investor in and writer for a failed high end ragazine.

A single newspaper article was written about this case,
at my request..

Be careful what you ask for Robert, as you might get a little more than you
hoped for!

I was rather pleased with the article, as
I felt that it fairly portrayed the conflict. McCarty
picked up on the article, and provided his own commentary
in the form of a condemnation.

The reported facts of the matter pretty well speak for themselves.

I've been pretty nice to you lately...

Spare me, Robert. You've been a little less prolific than you are at your
worst, but the general tone of your comments including this one is as ugly
as ever.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Robert Morein" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"paul packer" wrote in message

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 04:58:03 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

For an objectivist, you sound like a subjectivist.

Robert is clearly in the midst of an identity crisis.

No, Arnie, Robert is clearly open to persuasive
argument and scientific logic no matter who advances
it.

Actually Robert is a non-functional member of society

Really? You appear to know much more about him than I
do. Or maybe you've just been reading too many of the
posts of Sylvan Morein.

No, all that is needed is to read an independent source,
like any number of regular newspapers.

Try this retrieval in google:

philadelphia morein supreme

Arny, you're actually citing posts by Brian L. McCarty
about my dispute with Drexel University?

Not at all. I'm citing a relevant fact that has been reported in any
number of newspapers.

If that is your
intent, be warned you lower yourself to the level of
those who refer to your family tragedy, and those who
associate you with NAMBLA.

Not at all. Those references on RAO are mostly imaginary. The family
tragedy was real but the widely-circulated Middius/Sackman/Briggs/et al
version of the story is entirely fictional. The NAMBLA references are
tracable to a investor in and writer for a failed high end ragazine.

A single newspaper article was written about this case,
at my request..

Be careful what you ask for Robert, as you might get a little more than
you hoped for!

I was rather pleased with the article, as
I felt that it fairly portrayed the conflict. McCarty
picked up on the article, and provided his own commentary
in the form of a condemnation.

The reported facts of the matter pretty well speak for themselves.

I've been pretty nice to you lately...

Spare me, Robert. You've been a little less prolific than you are at your
worst, but the general tone of your comments including this one is as ugly
as ever.
Arny, you're as incorrigible as ever. A genuinely nasty guy. Nothing but
total agreement with your position would satisfy you. That is the essence
of the dictator's mentality.

In article ,
says...



Arny, you're as incorrigible as ever. A genuinely nasty guy. Nothing but
total agreement with your position would satisfy you. That is the essence
of the dictator's mentality.



Now AK is of quite strong will
He posses a degree of skill.
He just can't abstain..
From pullin' your chain
'cause he does these things for a thrill.

Hammingaway & Associates

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:28:07 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:56:24 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that prevent him from rising
to his full potential.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, Robert.

I was actually referring to Arny, who has just posted a very nasty slur
about me.

Yes, and I recall reprimanding him the last time he felt tempted to
push those particular buttons. To me Usenet is a playground. I don't
hold with vicious flame wars and especially with using past or current
personal difficulties and misfortunes as a weapon. Arnie of all people
should know better.

But the fact of Mikey is, unfortunately, an important exception to your
statement above. Mikey finds and cites the worst of what people have done.
For whatever reason, intelligence or education, he has no understanding of
the scientific method whatsoever. I suspect it is only Arny's loneliness
that prevents him from denouncing Mikey.

This is a very sad possibility to contemplate. I'm getting a little
teary....

Whenever you feel sad, Paul, retreat to "The Village of the Happy Nice
People"

That's RAO, isn't it? :-)

There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

Sure. My hifi buddy is a dedicated subjectivist, profoundly influenced by
the look and feel of equipment.

Yikes, don't tell them that! That's their argument.

Another friend of mine has a favorite quote, by J.S. Mill. I'm not sure I
have it exactly right, but it's approximately, "Truth is found at the
meeting of opposites."

Agreed. In fact I said something like that here recently whilst
re-stating why I won't pitch a tent in either camp.

But in r.a.o., it's not about the issues. Arny's recent slur is indicative
of that. He is seething with anger,

Actually paranoia, or is that the same thing?

perhaps about his dead son, or the fact
that life did not accord him all the academic achievements he is perhaps
capable of. Some people have personalities that warp easily.. Arny is one of
these.

Check out aus.hi-fi and the posts of one Phil Alllison. Phil is one of
modest accomplishment who daily rants with vile obscenities against
successful professionals, and will not ever, ever, ever take even the
most reasonable advice. Sound familiar? Arnie however rarely swears.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:14:47 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

Huh? I can criticise ABX better than most because
trhough experience with it I know it and its faults
better than most.

Good. Perhaps you'd like to list them.

Been there, done that, Paul. But since you are intellectually lazy, poorly
informed and hard to inform on the topic of subjective testing, I'll briefly
go over them again.

For openers, read the "10 requirements" on the PCABX web site and see what
the major points address. Those items pretty well cover the major weaknesses
of ABX and stand as weaknesses of ABX because not everybody is addressing
them or has addressed them.

For example if you take the old Stereo Review DBT articles, compare them to
the "10 requirements" the SR DBT articles come up very weak.

Then there's the slight problem that ABX is a test for differences, and does
not formally address preferences. This is one reason why ABC/hr was
developed.

ABX is also more awkward and time-consuming than other blind testing
methodologies for actually finding hearing thresholds. An alternative
approach is alluded to in the Dolby Jitter AES paper.

(yawn)

Oh sorry, I seem to have Arnie's disease.

paul packer said:

Arnie however rarely swears.

;-)

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:28:07 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 12:56:24 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:

In my opinion has the capability
to do good work, but he has personal problems that prevent him from
rising
to his full potential.

I'm not sure who you're referring to here, Robert.

I was actually referring to Arny, who has just posted a very nasty slur
about me.

Yes, and I recall reprimanding him the last time he felt tempted to
push those particular buttons. To me Usenet is a playground. I don't
hold with vicious flame wars and especially with using past or current
personal difficulties and misfortunes as a weapon. Arnie of all people
should know better.

But the fact of Mikey is, unfortunately, an important exception to your
statement above. Mikey finds and cites the worst of what people have
done.
For whatever reason, intelligence or education, he has no understanding
of
the scientific method whatsoever. I suspect it is only Arny's loneliness
that prevents him from denouncing Mikey.

This is a very sad possibility to contemplate. I'm getting a little
teary....

Whenever you feel sad, Paul, retreat to "The Village of the Happy Nice
People"

That's RAO, isn't it? :-)

There are,
however, some pleasant subjectivists here.

Sure. My hifi buddy is a dedicated subjectivist, profoundly influenced
by
the look and feel of equipment.

Yikes, don't tell them that! That's their argument.

Another friend of mine has a favorite quote, by J.S. Mill. I'm not sure I
have it exactly right, but it's approximately, "Truth is found at the
meeting of opposites."

Agreed. In fact I said something like that here recently whilst
re-stating why I won't pitch a tent in either camp.

But in r.a.o., it's not about the issues. Arny's recent slur is indicative
of that. He is seething with anger,

Actually paranoia, or is that the same thing?

perhaps about his dead son, or the fact
that life did not accord him all the academic achievements he is perhaps
capable of. Some people have personalities that warp easily.. Arny is one
of
these.

Check out aus.hi-fi and the posts of one Phil Alllison. Phil is one of
modest accomplishment who daily rants with vile obscenities against
successful professionals, and will not ever, ever, ever take even the
most reasonable advice. Sound familiar? Arnie however rarely swears.

Yes, I know Phil. I had him booted once.
Arny does swear in phone conversations

On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:06:08 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


Check out aus.hi-fi and the posts of one Phil Alllison. Phil is one of
modest accomplishment who daily rants with vile obscenities against
successful professionals, and will not ever, ever, ever take even the
most reasonable advice. Sound familiar? Arnie however rarely swears.

Yes, I know Phil. I had him booted once.
Arny does swear in phone conversations

Methinks both these statements require explanation.

"paul packer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 24 Feb 2006 12:06:08 -0500, "Robert Morein"
wrote:


Check out aus.hi-fi and the posts of one Phil Alllison. Phil is one of
modest accomplishment who daily rants with vile obscenities against
successful professionals, and will not ever, ever, ever take even the
most reasonable advice. Sound familiar? Arnie however rarely swears.

Yes, I know Phil. I had him booted once.
Arny does swear in phone conversations

Methinks both these statements require explanation.

I "know Phil" in the sense of having been subject to a torrent of his abuse.
I sent some of the stuff to his ISP, who booted or chastised him in some
way, such that he was absent for a while.

On the second subject, I can reveal no further details in this forum.
However, your imagination, combined with your long participation in this
group, would tend to lead you to the correct answer.