Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
Kim Inglar wrote:

Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

Waste of money: they're a gimmic. They're no replacement for thicker
cabling or a bigger battery. And if you really find you need a bigger
battery then say goodbye to your hearing - it's too loud already.

Hehe, it´s never too loud. I have just bought 2 RF 1501 (will be linked
with the powerlink cable) and 2 RF 1051. I only have a alternator that
deliveres 70A and one battery on 75A. What should I do then?

Kim

Kim Inglar wrote:

Waste of money: they're a gimmic. They're no replacement for thicker
cabling or a bigger battery. And if you really find you need a bigger
battery then say goodbye to your hearing - it's too loud already.

Hehe, it´s never too loud. I have just bought 2 RF 1501 (will be linked
with the powerlink cable) and 2 RF 1051. I only have a alternator that
deliveres 70A and one battery on 75A. What should I do then?

What's an RF 1051? If it's the cap then take it back to the store and
get a refund.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
Kim Inglar wrote:

Waste of money: they're a gimmic. They're no replacement for thicker
cabling or a bigger battery. And if you really find you need a bigger
battery then say goodbye to your hearing - it's too loud already.

Hehe, it´s never too loud. I have just bought 2 RF 1501 (will be linked
with the powerlink cable) and 2 RF 1051. I only have a alternator that
deliveres 70A and one battery on 75A. What should I do then?

What's an RF 1051? If it's the cap then take it back to the store and
get a refund.

It´s a stereo amplifier. 2*220W 4Ohm. (Rockford Fosgate Power series) The
other one 1501 is a 750 W mono Amplifier.

Kim

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 09:57 GMT, Kim Inglar wrote:

Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy
have nead for it if you have large batteries?

Kim,

I am somewhat new to car audio and never used a capacitor myself.
But I do understand the intended purpose of the large caps hooked to
the power line. When the sub amp goes to hit a note really hard,
the amp is going to need a draw a good bit of current. The battery
and/or alterator might not be able to deliever such a large current
exactly when the amp wants it. The first thing that will happen is
the amp gets the power over other things in the car. The capacitor
stores a bunch of electricity. When the amp needs the extra current
to drive the sub it gets it from the capacitor. At a much slower
rate, the capacitor is recharged from either the battery or
alternator.

Do you need one? Don't know. But I do know that if you are driving
down the road listening to your system and the headlights dim each
time a bass note is hit real hard, then a capacitory might just be
the answer.

It is my understanding that you only need a second battery if you
intend to play your system a lot when the car isn't running. If you
are like me and only listen to the system while driving, the second
battery won't do you any good. If the alternator you have and a
capacitor isn't enough to keep your system going, which I think it
should, you will need a bigger alterator.

Sam

--
See my links engine for a collection of sites that
might be of interest to you. Your additions will
make this engine more powerful global resource.
http://www.miltonstreet.com/scarleton/links/

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
Kim Inglar wrote:

What's an RF 1051? If it's the cap then take it back to the store and
get a refund.

It´s a stereo amplifier. 2*220W 4Ohm. (Rockford Fosgate Power series)
The
other one 1501 is a 750 W mono Amplifier.

Ah, with you. You may want to consider a second battery and a split
charger circuit for that lot, although you'll probably never get near
drawing the full current they could take. A higher spec alternator
mightn't go amiss if you really want to crank it up.

hmm, what is a split charger circuit? I´m norwegian and not that steady in
english

But thanks for all the help so far. It has been really good.

Kim

Neither a capacitor nor a second battery will do anything to help an
alternator keep up with current demand when the engine is running.

A second battery or a higher capacity battery is useful if you want to play
your system for long periods of time with the engine off.

The purpose of a capacitor is to improve the audio quality rather than to
reduce the strain on your electrical system. Judging from the feedback I've
seen, if they do have any effect on the sound quality, it's pretty subtle.

I wouldn't go right out and buy a new alternator just because you're
installing a high power system, however. Your stock alternator may be able
to supply all the current you need for normal use.

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
Kim Inglar wrote:

Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

Waste of money: they're a gimmic. They're no replacement for thicker
cabling or a bigger battery. And if you really find you need a bigger
battery then say goodbye to your hearing - it's too loud already.

Hehe, it´s never too loud. I have just bought 2 RF 1501 (will be linked
with the powerlink cable) and 2 RF 1051. I only have a alternator that
deliveres 70A and one battery on 75A. What should I do then?

Kim

Kim Inglar wrote:

Ah, with you. You may want to consider a second battery and a split
charger circuit for that lot, although you'll probably never get near
drawing the full current they could take. A higher spec alternator
mightn't go amiss if you really want to crank it up.

hmm, what is a split charger circuit? I´m norwegian and not that steady in
english

They're used in mobile homes and caravans which have fridges and other
gadgets. A second battery is used to run these (when there's no mains
electricity) and connected in so that it can be charged by the
alternator along with the main battery, but it cannot discharge the main
battery (I hope this makes sense!) These are referred to as "split
charger circuits" but I think they consist of a relay or two.

But thanks for all the help so far. It has been really good.

No problem!

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
Kim Inglar wrote:

Ah, with you. You may want to consider a second battery and a split
charger circuit for that lot, although you'll probably never get near
drawing the full current they could take. A higher spec alternator
mightn't go amiss if you really want to crank it up.

hmm, what is a split charger circuit? I´m norwegian and not that steady
in
english

They're used in mobile homes and caravans which have fridges and other
gadgets. A second battery is used to run these (when there's no mains
electricity) and connected in so that it can be charged by the
alternator along with the main battery, but it cannot discharge the main
battery (I hope this makes sense!) These are referred to as "split
charger circuits" but I think they consist of a relay or two.

Okay then I know what it is.

Thanks again

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...

"KaeZoo" wrote in message
y.com...
Neither a capacitor nor a second battery will do anything to help an
alternator keep up with current demand when the engine is running.

A second battery or a higher capacity battery is useful if you want to
play
your system for long periods of time with the engine off.

The purpose of a capacitor is to improve the audio quality rather than
to
reduce the strain on your electrical system. Judging from the feedback
I've
seen, if they do have any effect on the sound quality, it's pretty
subtle.

I wouldn't go right out and buy a new alternator just because you're
installing a high power system, however. Your stock alternator may be
able
to supply all the current you need for normal use.

I´m not going to play that mutch with the engine off. It´s going to be
used
when I´m driving to work and other locations. But do you think it will be
enough with an alternator that deliveres 70A?

Kim


It depends on whether you drive the system to its full capacity, as well as
what other electrical devices in the vehicle are in use. Just because you
have high-power amplifiers doesn't mean they'll be drawing maximum current
all the time. There's a very good chance that your normal use of the system
won't overtax your alternator. The only way to tell for sure is to try it
out.

X-No-Archive:yes

I think that people use them just to start debates here over the years.

"Amps have capacitors in them."

It's one of those debates that rage on forever and comes up here weekly.

I have 2 Farads because I can, I like them for show but don't think they do
much other than look good because of my 110 amp alternator.


~«©¿©»~

http://home.comcast.net/~wegetourmai...ome.html-.html
No. Try not.
Do or do not, there is no try.
Max

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...
Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar

KaeZoo wrote:

Neither a capacitor nor a second battery will do anything to help an
alternator keep up with current demand when the engine is running.

A second battery will stop you flattening your main one without
realising.


A second battery or a higher capacity battery is useful if you want to play
your system for long periods of time with the engine off.

True.


The purpose of a capacitor is to improve the audio quality rather than to
reduce the strain on your electrical system. Judging from the feedback I've
seen, if they do have any effect on the sound quality, it's pretty subtle.

Anyone want to buy some magic beans I've got for sale?

What a load of rot. I can only think this stems from a belief that caps
are good for noise removal on power lines. Of course, a 1F lump would be
no use at all for that and amps have great big switched mode step up
PSUs inside them generating shedloads of electical noise which doesn't
seem to affect its operation.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
KaeZoo wrote:

Neither a capacitor nor a second battery will do anything to help an
alternator keep up with current demand when the engine is running.

A second battery will stop you flattening your main one without
realising.


How?


A second battery or a higher capacity battery is useful if you want to
play
your system for long periods of time with the engine off.

True.


The purpose of a capacitor is to improve the audio quality rather than
to
reduce the strain on your electrical system. Judging from the feedback
I've
seen, if they do have any effect on the sound quality, it's pretty
subtle.

Anyone want to buy some magic beans I've got for sale?

What a load of rot. I can only think this stems from a belief that caps
are good for noise removal on power lines. Of course, a 1F lump would be
no use at all for that and amps have great big switched mode step up
PSUs inside them generating shedloads of electical noise which doesn't
seem to affect its operation.


My point was that a capacitor's purpose is NOT to assist the alternator.

In article m, "KaeZoo" wrote:

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
KaeZoo wrote:


My point was that a capacitor's purpose is NOT to assist the alternator.

If the car is running a capacitor will supply or "assist" the alternator, which
also includes, assisting fuses, wiring , connections.

The cap tries to maintain voltage, period.

greg

In article ,
"Kim Inglar" wrote:

Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have nead
for it if you have large batteries?


They attempt to hold the voltage steady. Unfortunately they have
minimal value for car audio amps. If the voltage is drooping from thin
wire, the better solution is bigger wire. If the voltage is drooping at
the battery, you're drawing too much current for a capacitor to be
useful. (You probably need a more efficient system if you're loading
down the battery!)

A capacitor doesn't do anything to help the alternator. They don't
store nearly enough power for that.

One farad is the capacitance where 1 amp causes a 1 volt/second change.
A 1/60 second surge at 60A would drain a 1F cap 1V or a 2F cap 0.5V.

In article m, "KaeZoo" wrote:

"GregS" wrote in message
...
In article m, "KaeZoo"
wrote:

"Scott M" wrote in message
...
KaeZoo wrote:


My point was that a capacitor's purpose is NOT to assist the alternator.

If the car is running a capacitor will supply or "assist" the alternator,
which
also includes, assisting fuses, wiring , connections.

The cap tries to maintain voltage, period.

greg

The cap isn't creating power. Only the alternator can do that, by
converting mechanical power to electrical power.

The alternator generates the voltage that the cap tries to maintain. If the
cap discharges to maintain voltage in the circuit, the alternator must work
to recharge it.

The only benefit of the capacitor is that it can react to changes in voltage
more quickly than the alternator can.

It can act with more authority, but not speed.
The electricity does not change speeds. It will come out of one as fast as the other.
As I mentioned before, the cap improves upon voltage depression from lossy
resistive lines, and it smooths out transitions which the alternator can not supply,
due to given RPM, and output capability at that RPM. The alternator is also supplying other
currents, like air conditioning clutches, lights, etc. The cap is at the amp, so it has a slight
buffer of resistance between everything else.

Basically the capacitor "assists" the alternator in the same way that my
credit card "assists" my cash flow. I may be able to pay for lunch a little
faster, but I'm not working any fewer hours because of it.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 18:12 GMT, Avanti wrote:

"Sam Carleton" wrote:
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 09:57 GMT, Kim Inglar wrote:

Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you
realy have nead for it if you have large batteries?

Kim,

I am somewhat new to car audio and never used a capacitor myself.
But I do understand the intended purpose of the large caps hooked
to the power line.

True, so why add all the bull**** after?

Because for the most part I am right? Maybe I did not do the best job
explaining it, but fundamentally I had it correct. I do believe that
KaeZoo summed up what I was trying to say, just more clearly:

-: Basically the capacitor "assists" the alternator in the
-: same way that my credit card "assists" my cash flow. I may
-: be able to pay for lunch a little faster, but I'm not
-: working any fewer hours because of it."

All the same, at least I state from what experience I write. There are
many reasons for doing this:

* One is so that folks don't simply assume I know what I am
talking about, because I don't. Even on topics that my
colleges consider me an expert, I realize that assuming I know
what I am talking can often lead to trouble. Disclaimers
provoke folks to question. This is a GOOD thing.

* By putting my thoughts and interpretations out there, it
allows others, like you to criticize them, ultimately
correcting any mistakes I made. The end result is that I gain
a better understanding of the topic.

* And finally, my experience, however limited it might be on the
subject at hand, might provoke thoughts that can be of value
of other people.

I am sure I could continue to come up with more reasons why the
bull****, but I hope you get the point. The bottom line is that if the
disclaimer provokes you to discount anything and everything I have to
write, you get to see the disclaimer at the top of my posting, not the
bottom

Sam

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 20:14 GMT, GregS wrote:
In article m,
"KaeZoo" wrote:
The cap isn't creating power. Only the alternator can do that, by
converting mechanical power to electrical power.

The alternator generates the voltage that the cap tries to
maintain. If the cap discharges to maintain voltage in the
circuit, the alternator must work to recharge it.

The only benefit of the capacitor is that it can react to changes
in voltage more quickly than the alternator can.

It can act with more authority, but not speed. The electricity
does not change speeds. It will come out of one as fast as the
other. As I mentioned before, the cap improves upon voltage
depression from lossy resistive lines, and it smooths out
transitions which the alternator can not supply, due to given RPM,
and output capability at that RPM. The alternator is also
supplying other currents, like air conditioning clutches, lights,
etc. The cap is at the amp, so it has a slight buffer of
resistance between everything else.

I think KaeZoo has it right except for the fact that it isn't speed,
but simple cash flow...

It is not that the credit card allows you to have access to money
faster, it allows you a larger buying power then you actually have
at any give point in time. In the end, you do have to pay it back.

Here is another example:

Think of a capacitor as a large bucket of electricity that is filled
from the top by the alternator and is always tilted over just a bit
to feed the amp. Under a normal load the alternator has more then
enough current to keep the bucket filled up. There are times (when
hitting loud and low bass notes), though that the amp will need to
pull significantly more current then the alternator is able to
deliver. For those times, the amp simply pulls the capacitor over
enough to get the all the current it needs for that bass note. Then
the alternator ups what it is putting into the bucket as to still
feed the amp, but to also replenish the capacitor.

Sam

"Sam Carleton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 20:14 GMT, GregS wrote:
In article m,
"KaeZoo" wrote:
The cap isn't creating power. Only the alternator can do that, by
converting mechanical power to electrical power.

The alternator generates the voltage that the cap tries to
maintain. If the cap discharges to maintain voltage in the
circuit, the alternator must work to recharge it.

The only benefit of the capacitor is that it can react to changes
in voltage more quickly than the alternator can.

It can act with more authority, but not speed. The electricity
does not change speeds. It will come out of one as fast as the
other. As I mentioned before, the cap improves upon voltage
depression from lossy resistive lines, and it smooths out
transitions which the alternator can not supply, due to given RPM,
and output capability at that RPM. The alternator is also
supplying other currents, like air conditioning clutches, lights,
etc. The cap is at the amp, so it has a slight buffer of
resistance between everything else.

I think KaeZoo has it right except for the fact that it isn't speed,
but simple cash flow...

It is not that the credit card allows you to have access to money
faster, it allows you a larger buying power then you actually have
at any give point in time. In the end, you do have to pay it back.

Here is another example:

Think of a capacitor as a large bucket of electricity that is filled
from the top by the alternator and is always tilted over just a bit
to feed the amp. Under a normal load the alternator has more then
enough current to keep the bucket filled up. There are times (when
hitting loud and low bass notes), though that the amp will need to
pull significantly more current then the alternator is able to
deliver. For those times, the amp simply pulls the capacitor over
enough to get the all the current it needs for that bass note. Then
the alternator ups what it is putting into the bucket as to still
feed the amp, but to also replenish the capacitor.

Sam


Apart from the amp is running from the battery, not the alternator, which is
a ocean of electricity compared to your bucket. So long as the power cables
to the amp are short and of the magnitude of jump leads all will be well.
The perceived improvement a capacitor makes is proportional to the
requirement to justify its cost.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 21:40 GMT, Dave Walker
wrote:

"Sam Carleton" wrote in
message

I think KaeZoo has it right except for the fact that it isn't
speed, but simple cash flow...

It is not that the credit card allows you to have access to money
faster, it allows you a larger buying power then you actually
have at any give point in time. In the end, you do have to pay it
back.

Here is another example:

Think of a capacitor as a large bucket of electricity that is
filled from the top by the alternator and is always tilted over
just a bit to feed the amp. Under a normal load the alternator
has more then enough current to keep the bucket filled up. There
are times (when hitting loud and low bass notes), though that the
amp will need to pull significantly more current then the
alternator is able to deliver. For those times, the amp simply
pulls the capacitor over enough to get the all the current it
needs for that bass note. Then the alternator ups what it is
putting into the bucket as to still feed the amp, but to also
replenish the capacitor.

Sam


Apart from the amp is running from the battery, not the
alternator, which is a ocean of electricity compared to your
bucket. So long as the power cables to the amp are short and of
the magnitude of jump leads all will be well. The perceived
improvement a capacitor makes is proportional to the requirement
to justify its cost.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the battery is
able to provide all the electricity that the amp needs, so there is
no need for a capacitor. Correct? My comments that follow assume
that my interpretation is correct.

It has always been my impression that like alternators, batteries
have to make the electricity move, too. The only difference is that
the alternator uses magnetism to move the electrons where as the
battery uses chemicals.

Allow me to continue on with my analogy of the bucket. The circuit
is thus:

* Water is pumped to the bucket.
* The bucket spills the water to the amp
* The amp spills the water out to the pump to begin the process all
over again.

There could be two pumps supplying water to the system. One pump
uses manpower to turn the pump. The other pump uses solar power to
turn the pump. It is true that there is basically an indefinite
amount of both solar power and manpower, but in both cases, they can
only provide so much water at any given point. So the bucket comes
into play when the amp needs more water then the two pumps can
deliver.

I do agree that if you only have one 200-watt amp that caps are not
going to be of any value because both the single battery and/or
alternator can easily keep up with the demands of such a small amp.
On the other hand, if you hook up 1000-watts to your sub, I would
suspect that the average alternator and battery would have a hard
time meeting the demands of the amp when the amp wants to hit hard.

Sam

Couldn't have said it better...

A lot of people just don't get it though. Hope you don't have to spell it
out any more than you have :P


"Sam Carleton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 21:40 GMT, Dave Walker
wrote:

"Sam Carleton" wrote in
message

I think KaeZoo has it right except for the fact that it isn't
speed, but simple cash flow...

It is not that the credit card allows you to have access to money
faster, it allows you a larger buying power then you actually
have at any give point in time. In the end, you do have to pay it
back.

Here is another example:

Think of a capacitor as a large bucket of electricity that is
filled from the top by the alternator and is always tilted over
just a bit to feed the amp. Under a normal load the alternator
has more then enough current to keep the bucket filled up. There
are times (when hitting loud and low bass notes), though that the
amp will need to pull significantly more current then the
alternator is able to deliver. For those times, the amp simply
pulls the capacitor over enough to get the all the current it
needs for that bass note. Then the alternator ups what it is
putting into the bucket as to still feed the amp, but to also
replenish the capacitor.

Sam


Apart from the amp is running from the battery, not the
alternator, which is a ocean of electricity compared to your
bucket. So long as the power cables to the amp are short and of
the magnitude of jump leads all will be well. The perceived
improvement a capacitor makes is proportional to the requirement
to justify its cost.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the battery is
able to provide all the electricity that the amp needs, so there is
no need for a capacitor. Correct? My comments that follow assume
that my interpretation is correct.

It has always been my impression that like alternators, batteries
have to make the electricity move, too. The only difference is that
the alternator uses magnetism to move the electrons where as the
battery uses chemicals.

Allow me to continue on with my analogy of the bucket. The circuit
is thus:

* Water is pumped to the bucket.
* The bucket spills the water to the amp
* The amp spills the water out to the pump to begin the process all
over again.

There could be two pumps supplying water to the system. One pump
uses manpower to turn the pump. The other pump uses solar power to
turn the pump. It is true that there is basically an indefinite
amount of both solar power and manpower, but in both cases, they can
only provide so much water at any given point. So the bucket comes
into play when the amp needs more water then the two pumps can
deliver.

I do agree that if you only have one 200-watt amp that caps are not
going to be of any value because both the single battery and/or
alternator can easily keep up with the demands of such a small amp.
On the other hand, if you hook up 1000-watts to your sub, I would
suspect that the average alternator and battery would have a hard
time meeting the demands of the amp when the amp wants to hit hard.

Sam

Close, but no cigar. Where you err is where you seem to suggest that it's
an all or none process - that is, either the electricity is there or it's
not. But that's not the case.

The basic fact is this: as you draw current from the power source, the
voltage decreases. It doesn't matter how many batteries, alternators, or
capacitors you have. These things, however, can work towards minimizing
this voltage drop.

All three things are important in an audio system. Yes, even capacitors.
That's not necessarily an endorsement for jewelry caps - it's simply
pointing out the fact that your amp already has several millifarads worth of
capacitance at the input anyway. The difference though is that the ESL and
ESR of these capacitors *as situated* are superior to even the best
capacitor you can buy.

But what it all comes down to is this: can you hear the difference?

Simple calculations based on laws of physics and psychoacoustics clearly
yield a resounding no.

--
Mark Zarella
zarellam at upstate dot edu


"Sam Carleton" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 at 21:40 GMT, Dave Walker
wrote:

"Sam Carleton" wrote in
message

I think KaeZoo has it right except for the fact that it isn't
speed, but simple cash flow...

It is not that the credit card allows you to have access to money
faster, it allows you a larger buying power then you actually
have at any give point in time. In the end, you do have to pay it
back.

Here is another example:

Think of a capacitor as a large bucket of electricity that is
filled from the top by the alternator and is always tilted over
just a bit to feed the amp. Under a normal load the alternator
has more then enough current to keep the bucket filled up. There
are times (when hitting loud and low bass notes), though that the
amp will need to pull significantly more current then the
alternator is able to deliver. For those times, the amp simply
pulls the capacitor over enough to get the all the current it
needs for that bass note. Then the alternator ups what it is
putting into the bucket as to still feed the amp, but to also
replenish the capacitor.

Sam


Apart from the amp is running from the battery, not the
alternator, which is a ocean of electricity compared to your
bucket. So long as the power cables to the amp are short and of
the magnitude of jump leads all will be well. The perceived
improvement a capacitor makes is proportional to the requirement
to justify its cost.

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that the battery is
able to provide all the electricity that the amp needs, so there is
no need for a capacitor. Correct? My comments that follow assume
that my interpretation is correct.

It has always been my impression that like alternators, batteries
have to make the electricity move, too. The only difference is that
the alternator uses magnetism to move the electrons where as the
battery uses chemicals.

Allow me to continue on with my analogy of the bucket. The circuit
is thus:

* Water is pumped to the bucket.
* The bucket spills the water to the amp
* The amp spills the water out to the pump to begin the process all
over again.

There could be two pumps supplying water to the system. One pump
uses manpower to turn the pump. The other pump uses solar power to
turn the pump. It is true that there is basically an indefinite
amount of both solar power and manpower, but in both cases, they can
only provide so much water at any given point. So the bucket comes
into play when the amp needs more water then the two pumps can
deliver.

I do agree that if you only have one 200-watt amp that caps are not
going to be of any value because both the single battery and/or
alternator can easily keep up with the demands of such a small amp.
On the other hand, if you hook up 1000-watts to your sub, I would
suspect that the average alternator and battery would have a hard
time meeting the demands of the amp when the amp wants to hit hard.

Sam

Kim Inglar wrote:

I´m not going to play that mutch with the engine off. It´s going to be used
when I´m driving to work and other locations. But do you think it will be
enough with an alternator that deliveres 70A?

Kim

I used to run a 400 watts system of a 30 amps alt. Of course, the
headlights dimmed like crazy but I never actually drained the battery.
I have now upgraded to a 55 amp alt and Optima yellow top battery which
is more than sufficient...

--
Eric (Dero) Desrochers

Hiroshima 45, Tchernobyl 86, Windows 95

In article ,
"Mark Zarella" seesigfile wrote:

So long as the power cables
to the amp are short and of the magnitude of jump leads all will be well.

As I've said plenty of times before in here, but no one seems to hear...the
power wire has virtually nothing to do with the attributes that capacitor
manufacturers claim their caps help -- transients. Increased power wire
size will not, for instance, decrease the amount of headlight dimming.



A capacitor won't help headlight dimming either. They simply don't
store that much power. As an example, a pair of 45W headlights would
drain a 1F cap 2V in 0.27 seconds. A 100A load will drain a 1F cap 2V
in 0.02 seconds.

Headlight dimming is bouncing between the alternator's 14.4V and the
battery's 12-something volts. It's nothing to worry about.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 at 09:34 GMT, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

A capacitor won't help headlight dimming either. They simply
don't store that much power. As an example, a pair of 45W
headlights would drain a 1F cap 2V in 0.27 seconds. A 100A load
will drain a 1F cap 2V in 0.02 seconds.

Man, I have to really scratch my head sometimes. Ok, I agree,
capacitors (for the amp) don't help the headlights. Technically you
are correct. It seems that my bucket example has been easy to
understand so here goes another addition to it:

Here is the circuit:

1. The pumps (alternator and batteries) pump the water to everything
that needs it: bucket (the capacitors), headlights, head unit, air
conditioning, etc.
2. The bucket spills over to the amp.
3. The amp and everything else returns the water back to the pumps.

Again, under normal load the pumps are able to provide more then
enough water for everything and the bucket is of no value. But when
one turns up the bass and starts to hit those low bass notes really
heard, then the amp is going to have peek demands. Now keep in mind
that the bass note might only last a tenth of a second every other
second. Because of this the amp only has peek demands for the same
period of time, a tenth of a second every other second.

When the peek demand comes along and there is no bucket, I don't
know why, but for some reason the amp get precedence over everything
else wanting water. Because of the limited flow from the pumps, the
amp is able to get water that would have normally gone to the other
devices in the car.

When the bucket is in place, the amp is able to get what it needs
from the bucket and the pump will take it's time filling it back up.

Obviously the bucket (capacitor) is not doing anything for the other
devices. But the bucket (capacitor) is sort of an assistant to the
pump, stepping in when the pump is asked to do more then it is able
to at one time. Because the bucket is assisting with the amp, the
pump is able to continue to do its normal job with all the other
devices. So, no, a capacitor does not help the headlights, it helps
the pump.

There is one last issue. Would you run your car from coast to coast
with only half the oil that the engine requires? I do not think you
would notice a difference in the ride, and I would be willing to bet
that you could make the trip. You might even be able to make the
trip a number of times. But would you do it? I won't. Even though
one would not notice the difference in the ride, there is a
difference in the strain you are putting on the engine.

The same is true for all the electrical devices in your car. If
they all expect to get 12 volts, but because of your amp banging
away their voltage drops to 5 volts, you are putting extra strain on
them. You won't see the difference at first, it might take a few
years, but all the same there is more ware and tare on the devices
then if a capacitor is used to assist the pump.

The way I see it is this: I care about all the electrical devices
in my 2002 Volkswagen, because of this, when I install my amp in a
month or two, I will be installing a capacitor to help out my
alternator and battery. I do not expect to see nor hear a
difference; I see it as buy cheap insurance for the rest of my
electrical system.

Sam

A capacitor won't help headlight dimming either.

Sure it will. Diode isolate your lights and install 100,000 uF caps on the
headlight wires. Dimming dramatically reduced.

By now the solution seems to be clear:

1) Largest gauge and shortest run mains possible.
2) High capacity battery.
3) High output alternator.
4) Use money budgeted for capacitors for items one through three above,
unless you want to spend it for "show not go."

Best,

Phil Sharkey

In article , Sam Carleton wrote:
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 at 09:34 GMT, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

A capacitor won't help headlight dimming either. They simply

The same is true for all the electrical devices in your car. If
they all expect to get 12 volts, but because of your amp banging
away their voltage drops to 5 volts, you are putting extra strain on
them. You won't see the difference at first, it might take a few
years, but all the same there is more ware and tare on the devices
then if a capacitor is used to assist the pump.

Dropping to 5 volts, I think you have a serious problem.

The way I see it is this: I care about all the electrical devices
in my 2002 Volkswagen, because of this, when I install my amp in a
month or two, I will be installing a capacitor to help out my
alternator and battery. I do not expect to see nor hear a
difference; I see it as buy cheap insurance for the rest of my


The cap may help the amp, but the cap does not help the bat and alternator.
What car companies should have is 13.2 volt batteries or even 14.4 volt batteries.
An alternator could then charge this more optimum voltage to power mobile equipment.
Actually other vehicle types can have 24 or more volt systems to combat high current
and heavy wire requirment in mobile vehicles.

The idea of adding caps was to get an improvement in max SPL in a given system, period.

greg

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 at 15:47 GMT, Phil Sharkey wrote:
By now the solution seems to be clear:

1) Largest gauge and shortest run mains possible.
2) High capacity battery.
3) High output alternator.
4) Use money budgeted for capacitors for items one through three above,
unless you want to spend it for "show not go."

That is one solution, all depending on how you value capacitors.
There is also the issue of price. It looks like a 1 farad caps is
less then $100 normally. A high output alternator for my car is
going to cost somewhere around $300 to $400.

Personally I think a cap is a much better investment then a high
output alternator, assuming your alternator has enough umph to drive
the system, normally. Which it is my understanding most alternators
do until the system reachs the 1000+ watts area.

Sam

--
See my links engine for a collection of sites that
might be of interest to you. Your additions will
make this engine more powerful global resource.
http://www.miltonstreet.com/scarleton/links/

Dear Sam,

The alternator is the last item on the list. It cost me less than $100
to do the one-wire GM alternator trick with my 280Z, an extra benefit
was that I wired the headlights, fogs and driving lights with 8 guage
and relays and they're much brighter now.

Once again:

First: Maximize the wire gauge and minimize the run.

If that does not do what you want, then:

Get a higher capacity battery.

If that does not do what you want, then:

Do the alternator swap.

The laws of physics cleary demonstrate that capacitors WILL NOT DO
ANYTHING except COST YOU MONEY and LOOK COOL.

Best,

Phil Sharkey


Sam Carleton wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 at 15:47 GMT, Phil Sharkey wrote:


By now the solution seems to be clear:

1) Largest gauge and shortest run mains possible.
2) High capacity battery.
3) High output alternator.
4) Use money budgeted for capacitors for items one through three above,
unless you want to spend it for "show not go."



That is one solution, all depending on how you value capacitors.
There is also the issue of price. It looks like a 1 farad caps is
less then $100 normally. A high output alternator for my car is
going to cost somewhere around $300 to $400.

Personally I think a cap is a much better investment then a high
output alternator, assuming your alternator has enough umph to drive
the system, normally. Which it is my understanding most alternators
do until the system reachs the 1000+ watts area.

Sam

X-No-Archive:yes

What's a capacitor and what wires do I use on it? (rolls eyes) 6 years of this question.

~«©¿©»~

http://home.comcast.net/~wegetourmai...ome.html-.html
No. Try not.
Do or do not, there is no try.
Max

"Phil Sharkey" wrote in message ...
Dear Sam,

The alternator is the last item on the list. It cost me less than $100 to do the one-wire GM alternator trick with my 280Z, an extra benefit was that I wired the headlights, fogs and driving lights with 8 guage and relays and they're much brighter now.

Once again:

First: Maximize the wire gauge and minimize the run.

If that does not do what you want, then:

Get a higher capacity battery.

If that does not do what you want, then:

Do the alternator swap.

The laws of physics cleary demonstrate that capacitors WILL NOT DO ANYTHING except COST YOU MONEY and LOOK COOL.

Best,

Phil Sharkey


Sam Carleton wrote:

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 at 15:47 GMT, Phil Sharkey wrote:
By now the solution seems to be clear:

1) Largest gauge and shortest run mains possible.
2) High capacity battery.
3) High output alternator.
4) Use money budgeted for capacitors for items one through three above,
unless you want to spend it for "show not go."

That is one solution, all depending on how you value capacitors.
There is also the issue of price. It looks like a 1 farad caps is
less then $100 normally. A high output alternator for my car is
going to cost somewhere around $300 to $400.

Personally I think a cap is a much better investment then a high
output alternator, assuming your alternator has enough umph to drive
the system, normally. Which it is my understanding most alternators
do until the system reachs the 1000+ watts area.

Sam

Caps provide your system an extra surge of power that the battery or
alternator cannot supply.

Normal Stereos, or minimal systems do not need caps for they do not draw a
lot of power.

To know whether or not you need a Cap or not, throw a bass test CD into your
car, and play the music the way you noramlly would. If your lights in your
car dim, the engine revs like mad and the check battery light comes on in
your car, install a cap.

I have 2 -3 Fadad Caps in my show vehicle. 8,000 watts of RMS Power.
Regardless of what anyone says, the main line fact is that if you need an
instant-power source due to a bass hit or power spike to deal with peak
wattage then get a cap. A Cap. however will not do anything if you are
contantly overpowering your battery or alternator. Getting a bigger battery
might help, but make sure that it is a high powered one, you will probably
need to re-build the battery box in your car, since a stock battery or one
that is the right size for your vehicle will get over-driven and you will
tear though a battery in a matter of months.

K

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...
Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar

The discussion reminds me of a bumper sticker I saw the other day,
"Lotteries are taxes paid by people who can't do math."

Best,

Phil Sharkey

Hello,

I have a massive pair of spotlights which cause the engine to rev lower and
it really puts a load on the battery. So are you also claiming that a
capacitor will also help this. The capacitor will not know it's not an
expensive audio amp, unless you can get "intelligent" ones!

I have never read so much rubbish in my life - the reason they are sold is
to make money out of people that are a bit thick. The type that will buy
blue LED washer jets, induction kits to suck hot air from around the engine,
big exhausts and wheels that could fit onto a tractor.

So long as you THINK it does something then good for you. If that's what
you want to believe in!

"Kevin Glass" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
Caps provide your system an extra surge of power that the battery or
alternator cannot supply.

Normal Stereos, or minimal systems do not need caps for they do not draw a
lot of power.

To know whether or not you need a Cap or not, throw a bass test CD into
your
car, and play the music the way you noramlly would. If your lights in
your
car dim, the engine revs like mad and the check battery light comes on in
your car, install a cap.

I have 2 -3 Fadad Caps in my show vehicle. 8,000 watts of RMS Power.
Regardless of what anyone says, the main line fact is that if you need an
instant-power source due to a bass hit or power spike to deal with peak
wattage then get a cap. A Cap. however will not do anything if you are
contantly overpowering your battery or alternator. Getting a bigger
battery
might help, but make sure that it is a high powered one, you will probably
need to re-build the battery box in your car, since a stock battery or one
that is the right size for your vehicle will get over-driven and you will
tear though a battery in a matter of months.

K

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...
Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar

All a cap does is try to maintain voltage to the amp. For a system like
you are talking you would need atleast a 2 Farad Cap to have it do
anything for you. A second battery would be more usefull to you if you
plan on playing your stereo load a lot. However for the second battery
to really take the strain off of the alternator you will need a battery
isolator. If you are in need of a battery or a cap you can e-mail me. I
have several brand new optima Batteries for sale as well as High Output
Alternator Batteries and Alternators for sale. I also have a large
number of all different size Caps available. Let me know what you
decide to do and I can probably help you out.
--
dtrsiracer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=150268

The ONLY time a second battery helps is when the car isn't running. When
the car is running the only thing that supplies power is the alternator and
the battery or batteries are nothing but a load taking power *away* from the
stereo since they must be charged and the more you have the more current
goes to charging them. If you need more power for quick bursts a cap *can*
help but the only that *will* help will be a larger or second alternator.


Paul Vina


"dtrsiracer" wrote in message
s.com...
All a cap does is try to maintain voltage to the amp. For a system like
you are talking you would need atleast a 2 Farad Cap to have it do
anything for you. A second battery would be more usefull to you if you
plan on playing your stereo load a lot. However for the second battery
to really take the strain off of the alternator you will need a battery
isolator. If you are in need of a battery or a cap you can e-mail me. I
have several brand new optima Batteries for sale as well as High Output
Alternator Batteries and Alternators for sale. I also have a large
number of all different size Caps available. Let me know what you
decide to do and I can probably help you out.
--
dtrsiracer
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread:
http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=150268

no it will not help because the spotlights are always drawing maximum
power an amp only draws the maximum power at certain times this is why
the theory of a capacitor works....








547 wrote:
*Hello,

I have a massive pair of spotlights which cause the engine to rev
lower and
it really puts a load on the battery. So are you also claiming that
a
capacitor will also help this. The capacitor will not know it's not
an
expensive audio amp, unless you can get "intelligent" ones!

I have never read so much rubbish in my life - the reason they are
sold is
to make money out of people that are a bit thick. The type that will
buy
blue LED washer jets, induction kits to suck hot air from around the
engine,
big exhausts and wheels that could fit onto a tractor.

So long as you THINK it does something then good for you. If that's
what
you want to believe in!

"Kevin Glass" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
Caps provide your system an extra surge of power that the battery
or
alternator cannot supply.

Normal Stereos, or minimal systems do not need caps for they do not
draw a
lot of power.

To know whether or not you need a Cap or not, throw a bass test CD
into
your
car, and play the music the way you noramlly would. If your lights
in
your
car dim, the engine revs like mad and the check battery light comes
on in
your car, install a cap.

I have 2 -3 Fadad Caps in my show vehicle. 8,000 watts of RMS
Power.
Regardless of what anyone says, the main line fact is that if you
need an
instant-power source due to a bass hit or power spike to deal with
peak
wattage then get a cap. A Cap. however will not do anything if you
are
contantly overpowering your battery or alternator. Getting a
bigger
battery
might help, but make sure that it is a high powered one, you will
probably
need to re-build the battery box in your car, since a stock battery
or one
that is the right size for your vehicle will get over-driven and
you will
tear though a battery in a matter of months.

K

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...
Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy
have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar



*
--
ke6960
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread: http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=150268

This might be a good compromise.

http://batcap.net/Model400.html



"ke6960" wrote in message
s.com...
no it will not help because the spotlights are always drawing maximum
power an amp only draws the maximum power at certain times this is why
the theory of a capacitor works....








547 wrote:
*Hello,

I have a massive pair of spotlights which cause the engine to rev
lower and
it really puts a load on the battery. So are you also claiming that
a
capacitor will also help this. The capacitor will not know it's not
an
expensive audio amp, unless you can get "intelligent" ones!

I have never read so much rubbish in my life - the reason they are
sold is
to make money out of people that are a bit thick. The type that will
buy
blue LED washer jets, induction kits to suck hot air from around the
engine,
big exhausts and wheels that could fit onto a tractor.

So long as you THINK it does something then good for you. If that's
what
you want to believe in!

"Kevin Glass" wrote in message
ble.rogers.com...
Caps provide your system an extra surge of power that the battery
or
alternator cannot supply.

Normal Stereos, or minimal systems do not need caps for they do not
draw a
lot of power.

To know whether or not you need a Cap or not, throw a bass test CD
into
your
car, and play the music the way you noramlly would. If your lights
in
your
car dim, the engine revs like mad and the check battery light comes
on in
your car, install a cap.

I have 2 -3 Fadad Caps in my show vehicle. 8,000 watts of RMS
Power.
Regardless of what anyone says, the main line fact is that if you
need an
instant-power source due to a bass hit or power spike to deal with
peak
wattage then get a cap. A Cap. however will not do anything if you
are
contantly overpowering your battery or alternator. Getting a
bigger
battery
might help, but make sure that it is a high powered one, you will
probably
need to re-build the battery box in your car, since a stock battery
or one
that is the right size for your vehicle will get over-driven and
you will
tear though a battery in a matter of months.

K

"Kim Inglar" wrote in message
...
Why do you use a capacitor? what is it good for? And do you realy
have
nead
for it if you have large batteries?

--
Det ER størrelsen det kommer ann på. 18" eller mer.

Kim Inglar



*
--
ke6960
------------------------------------------------------------------------
CarAudioForum.com - Usenet Gateway w/over one million posts online!
View this thread:
http://www.caraudioforum.com/showthr...hreadid=150268