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nickbatz nickbatz is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

Hey, does anyone know how to test a Yamaha breath controller?

This is what the great Jonathan Fast of MIDI Solutions told me:

"I haven't looked inside a BC2 but I think it's the same as the BC3 which contains an amplifier circuit, if a voltage is applied across the tip and the sleeve the ring produces a varying voltage that is dependent on the applied breath pressure."

The BC2 is the same as the BC3, but how would I set up the test with my VOM?

(By the way, it's not doing anything in the breath control inputs of two different synths, but before either trying to fix it or throwing it away, I want to ensure that it really is kaput.)

TIA
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On 14/01/2018 10:43 AM, nickbatz wrote:
Hey, does anyone know how to test a Yamaha breath controller?

This is what the great Jonathan Fast of MIDI Solutions told me:

"I haven't looked inside a BC2 but I think it's the same as the BC3 which contains an amplifier circuit, if a voltage is applied across the tip and the sleeve the ring produces a varying voltage that is dependent on the applied breath pressure."

The BC2 is the same as the BC3, but how would I set up the test with my VOM?

(By the way, it's not doing anything in the breath control inputs of two different synths, but before either trying to fix it or throwing it away, I want to ensure that it really is kaput.)

TIA



Definitely VOMit . So to speak. But not *into* the BC ;-0=====

Need to know which jack(?) connection is V+, which is 0V, and which is
the output voltage. Sorry , don't actually know that - just wanted an
excuse to write VOMit.

geoff
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TimR TimR is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:22:20 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 14/01/2018 10:43 AM, nickbatz wrote:
Hey, does anyone know how to test a Yamaha breath controller?

This is what the great Jonathan Fast of MIDI Solutions told me:

"I haven't looked inside a BC2 but I think it's the same as the BC3 which contains an amplifier circuit, if a voltage is applied across the tip and the sleeve the ring produces a varying voltage that is dependent on the applied breath pressure."

The BC2 is the same as the BC3, but how would I set up the test with my VOM?

(By the way, it's not doing anything in the breath control inputs of two different synths, but before either trying to fix it or throwing it away, I want to ensure that it really is kaput.)

TIA



Definitely VOMit . So to speak. But not *into* the BC ;-0=====

Need to know which jack(?) connection is V+, which is 0V, and which is
the output voltage. Sorry , don't actually know that - just wanted an
excuse to write VOMit.

geoff


You know MIDI outputs a digital velocity signal, right? Not a varying voltage?
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John Williamson John Williamson is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On 16/01/2018 13:53, TimR wrote:
On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:22:20 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
Definitely VOMit . So to speak. But not *into* the BC ;-0=====

Need to know which jack(?) connection is V+, which is 0V, and which is
the output voltage. Sorry , don't actually know that - just wanted an
excuse to write VOMit.

Your sense of humour is as infantile as mine; :-)

geoff


You know MIDI outputs a digital velocity signal, right? Not a varying voltage?

The breath controllers put out an analogue voltage, which uses
(simplified) an ADC and some logic to output a MIDI control signal.

Before MIDI was invented, early synthesisers did something similar by
using a ladder of resistors to output a one volt per octave control
signal to the rest of the circuitry. Then they invented MIDI keyboards,
and synthesisers were controlled by a DAC outputting a one volt per
octave analogue signal. Then they went all digital, and the one volt per
octave thing dropped out of use except for specialist applications

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On 17/01/2018 2:53 AM, TimR wrote:
On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:22:20 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 14/01/2018 10:43 AM, nickbatz wrote:
Hey, does anyone know how to test a Yamaha breath controller?

This is what the great Jonathan Fast of MIDI Solutions told me:

"I haven't looked inside a BC2 but I think it's the same as the BC3 which contains an amplifier circuit, if a voltage is applied across the tip and the sleeve the ring produces a varying voltage that is dependent on the applied breath pressure."

The BC2 is the same as the BC3, but how would I set up the test with my VOM?

(By the way, it's not doing anything in the breath control inputs of two different synths, but before either trying to fix it or throwing it away, I want to ensure that it really is kaput.)

TIA



Definitely VOMit . So to speak. But not *into* the BC ;-0=====

Need to know which jack(?) connection is V+, which is 0V, and which is
the output voltage. Sorry , don't actually know that - just wanted an
excuse to write VOMit.

geoff


You know MIDI outputs a digital velocity signal, right? Not a varying voltage?



You know that the Yamaha Breath Controllers are not MIDI devices, right ?

geoff


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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On Tuesday, January 16, 2018 at 2:06:13 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 17/01/2018 2:53 AM, TimR wrote:
On Saturday, January 13, 2018 at 6:22:20 PM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
On 14/01/2018 10:43 AM, nickbatz wrote:
Hey, does anyone know how to test a Yamaha breath controller?

This is what the great Jonathan Fast of MIDI Solutions told me:

"I haven't looked inside a BC2 but I think it's the same as the BC3 which contains an amplifier circuit, if a voltage is applied across the tip and the sleeve the ring produces a varying voltage that is dependent on the applied breath pressure."

The BC2 is the same as the BC3, but how would I set up the test with my VOM?

(By the way, it's not doing anything in the breath control inputs of two different synths, but before either trying to fix it or throwing it away, I want to ensure that it really is kaput.)

TIA



Definitely VOMit . So to speak. But not *into* the BC ;-0=====

Need to know which jack(?) connection is V+, which is 0V, and which is
the output voltage. Sorry , don't actually know that - just wanted an
excuse to write VOMit.

geoff


You know MIDI outputs a digital velocity signal, right? Not a varying voltage?



You know that the Yamaha Breath Controllers are not MIDI devices, right ?

Geoff


It's not the thing that looks like a soprano sax, and outputs MIDI to simulate any instrument you want?

We had a flute player show up to a concert with one, to cover the missing oboe player.

Unfortunately he wasn't that familiar with MIDI and didn't know about start and stop signals. Sure enough, it stuck on during the concert (dropped the off signal) and he didn't know where the MIDI "panic" button was.

I learned from that, find the "panic" button first on any MIDI equipment.

So what is the "breath controller?" Sort of an ADC-MIDI interface?

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geoff geoff is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On 17/01/2018 9:06 AM, TimR wrote:



You know that the Yamaha Breath Controllers are not MIDI devices, right ?

Geoff


It's not the thing that looks like a soprano sax, and outputs MIDI to simulate any instrument you want?

We had a flute player show up to a concert with one, to cover the missing oboe player.

Unfortunately he wasn't that familiar with MIDI and didn't know about start and stop signals. Sure enough, it stuck on during the concert (dropped the off signal) and he didn't know where the MIDI "panic" button was.

I learned from that, find the "panic" button first on any MIDI equipment.

So what is the "breath controller?" Sort of an ADC-MIDI interface?



No - it's an accessory that plugs into a Yamaha MIDI keyboard and dates
right back to the DX7 and KX88.

The BC1 looks a bit like an asthma inhaler (I have one, somewhere...),
and the BC2 and BC3 like headset mics.

They put out a DC control-voltage related to the strength of 'blow'.
The attached MIDI device can use this however it wants - usually to
affect volume or pitch-bend, but depending on the MIDI device it is
attached to could be mapped to any SysEx control.

A company call MIDI Solutions make an inline MIDI-Thru type device that
can apply the BC control to any incoming MIDI stream.

Google is (sometimes) your friend:

http://www.midisolutions.com/applica...eathController

http://www.tecontrol.se/products/usb...ntroller-facts

geoff
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nickbatz nickbatz is offline
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

Okay, a primer.

Breath controllers are devices you blow into to produce a variable voltage for expression. Breath control (MIDI CC#2) is a very musical way to get expression after you play a note. I have three instruments that have breath controller inputs: a Kurzweil K2500X, Yamaha VL1, and Alternate Mode DrumKAT.

Geoff linked the MIDI Solutions breath controller - MIDI converter (for instruments that don't have inputs) and the TEC USB one, but the first ones I know of were made by Yamaha and are now discontinued. They're all awful - the BC1 required way too much pressure, and the BC2 and BC3 had the feel of an orthodontic appliance. However, you can put a tube into the BC2/3 without using its ****e mouthpiece, and then it's actually quite good.

A company called Hornberg makes an absolutely beautiful breath controller. It's not cheap, however - nor could it be, given that it's a high-quality musical instrument:

https://www.hornberg-research.de/ind...er-products-en

I've been involved with two breath controller products. One was a hardware one made by an engineer I teamed up with, but that project petered out after only a handful of sales.

The other is an iPad program called Blowfinger, which uses wind noise across any cheap mic (for example a $3 iPhone headset mic, preferably with the earpieces cut off) to produce the varying voltage, which gets sampled and translated into MIDI values.

Blowfinger - the "finger" part of the name - can work as a wind controller or just a breath controller. Wind controllers are like the thing TimR described, most likely a Yamaha WX-11. (Bummer that your impression of them was tainted, because wind controllers are wonderful instruments.) The best-known wind controllers are Akai's EWI series and the Yamaha WXs, but there are others.

Wind controllers work like acoustic wind instruments - you hold down combinations of keys and blow into them, only they send MIDI notes (and some have internal synths now). Blowfinger has a familiar keyboard you touch on the screen, or it has touch pads on the screen that you finger using standard Boehm fingering system.

Or you can play it - as well as the Akai EWI - using a modified recorder fingering system, which is what I use since recorder is my first instrument. While the WX-11 and WX-5 have keys like a clarinet or sax, the EWIs have touch pads, which is totally natural for a recorder player but a little harder for a sax player to get used to. (The touch pads are capacitance-sensitive, like elevator buttons.)

Wind controllers are incredibly satisfying to play if you have the right synth paired with them. I use a 24-year-old Yamaha VL1 most of the time with my EWI 3020 - an awesome instrument if you exploit its unique sounds rather than its emulations - and I also like the analog synth contained in the EWI's brain (the 3020m rack box).

But unlike breath controllers, wind controllers aren't usually good for working with modern sample libraries, which are set up for keyboard control. Usually you switch articulations - samples of different playing techniques - with keyswitches, which are like program changes triggered from notes in an unused part of the keyboard.

So for example if you're playing long connected notes on a violin and then you want a hard, short attack, you'd switch to a staccato sample program for that note. That's hard to do with your fingers on a wind controller; now picture a library with over a dozen keyswitched articulations.

Wind controllers are designed to shape the notes while you're playing them, rather than switching articulations. But you can use breath controllers with samples very effectively to shape the dynamics and brightness in real time, by mapping them to volume and filtering/eq.

Anyway, I have a BC2 that isn't working, and I want to fix it.
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

On 18/01/2018 11:27 AM, nickbatz wrote:
Okay, a primer.

Breath controllers are devices you blow into to produce a variable voltage for expression. Breath control (MIDI CC#2) is a very musical way to get expression after you play a note. I have three instruments that have breath controller inputs: a Kurzweil K2500X, Yamaha VL1, and Alternate Mode DrumKAT.

Geoff linked the MIDI Solutions breath controller - MIDI converter (for instruments that don't have inputs) and the TEC USB one, but the first ones I know of were made by Yamaha and are now discontinued. They're all awful - the BC1 required way too much pressure, and the BC2 and BC3 had the feel of an orthodontic appliance. However, you can put a tube into the BC2/3 without using its ****e mouthpiece, and then it's actually quite good.

A company called Hornberg makes an absolutely beautiful breath controller. It's not cheap, however - nor could it be, given that it's a high-quality musical instrument:

https://www.hornberg-research.de/ind...er-products-en

I've been involved with two breath controller products. One was a hardware one made by an engineer I teamed up with, but that project petered out after only a handful of sales.

The other is an iPad program called Blowfinger, which uses wind noise across any cheap mic (for example a $3 iPhone headset mic, preferably with the earpieces cut off) to produce the varying voltage, which gets sampled and translated into MIDI values.

Blowfinger - the "finger" part of the name - can work as a wind controller or just a breath controller. Wind controllers are like the thing TimR described, most likely a Yamaha WX-11. (Bummer that your impression of them was tainted, because wind controllers are wonderful instruments.) The best-known wind controllers are Akai's EWI series and the Yamaha WXs, but there are others.

Wind controllers work like acoustic wind instruments - you hold down combinations of keys and blow into them, only they send MIDI notes (and some have internal synths now). Blowfinger has a familiar keyboard you touch on the screen, or it has touch pads on the screen that you finger using standard Boehm fingering system.

Or you can play it - as well as the Akai EWI - using a modified recorder fingering system, which is what I use since recorder is my first instrument. While the WX-11 and WX-5 have keys like a clarinet or sax, the EWIs have touch pads, which is totally natural for a recorder player but a little harder for a sax player to get used to. (The touch pads are capacitance-sensitive, like elevator buttons.)

Wind controllers are incredibly satisfying to play if you have the right synth paired with them. I use a 24-year-old Yamaha VL1 most of the time with my EWI 3020 - an awesome instrument if you exploit its unique sounds rather than its emulations - and I also like the analog synth contained in the EWI's brain (the 3020m rack box).

But unlike breath controllers, wind controllers aren't usually good for working with modern sample libraries, which are set up for keyboard control. Usually you switch articulations - samples of different playing techniques - with keyswitches, which are like program changes triggered from notes in an unused part of the keyboard.

So for example if you're playing long connected notes on a violin and then you want a hard, short attack, you'd switch to a staccato sample program for that note. That's hard to do with your fingers on a wind controller; now picture a library with over a dozen keyswitched articulations.

Wind controllers are designed to shape the notes while you're playing them, rather than switching articulations. But you can use breath controllers with samples very effectively to shape the dynamics and brightness in real time, by mapping them to volume and filtering/eq.

Anyway, I have a BC2 that isn't working, and I want to fix it.


Google helps again "yamaha BC2 schematic" image-search found:
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/elect...iew.php?id=787

.... an the rest is pretty straightforward mechanical bits.

I believe that IC3 is a Hall-Effect sensor, and works against a small
magnet on the PCB(?).

geoff

geoff
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Default Testing a Yamaha breath controller

Yup, it's a hall-effect sensor.

Thanks - the schematic may come in useful.
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