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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec


"flipper" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 09:14:29 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:



flipper wrote:

On Tue, 09 Dec 2008 07:19:16 GMT, Patrick Turner
wrote:



Phil Allison wrote:

"Arny Krueger"

Electricity flows at the speed of light,

** ROTFL !!

But heat travels down a wire at the speed of a sick
snail.

and the whole tube is in a vacuum.

** Yeah - vacuums are real *******s, they really
suck.

The thermal intertia of the components the filament
contacts would be a
possible variable.

** Hey - no fooling.

Amazing how everyone has already thought of that
!!!!

Most tubes that have separate and symmetrical sides
are are duals, and
they seem to light up about the same.

** My god - that is an inspired insight ......

There might be far less flash at the tops of tubes
because the filament
wires are just barely poking out, while the ones at
the bottom run all the
way down to the pins.

** IME - there are those that are " top flashers "
and there are those
that are " bottom flashers ".

And I am speaking of tubes, not people.

...... Phil


Phil, looks like I was right.

Not quite. I posted the same quote and while it's
probably sufficient
to allay the concerns of a home user it's not
technically correct.

For example, the description that "So in effect one side
of the
tube always warms up 1st" makes no sense.

It also seems he got a bit confused with the heater
wiring. Remember,
a 12AX7 has a center tapped heater and it appears to me
that he
confused the two going to pins 4 and 5 as 'one side'
with the one
going to pin 9 as the 'other side'.

At any rate, I did look at mine and it's simply that the
insulation
doesn't extend all the way to the pin weld so a portion
of the bare
filament is exposed.

His explanation for the flash is also incomplete. It
isn't just the
"very little resistance." It's the lower thermal mass of
the
uninsulated segment that warms faster than the rest so
it's resistance
increases faster and causes more voltage drop across it,
increasing
the power dissipated in that segment, till the remainder
of the heater
warms to operating temperature.

I seriously doubt that 50-75 mils out of the entire
heater length has
a significant effect on the overall surge and the
instantaneous
initial peak would still be the same since the 'whole
thing' starts
off cold.


The surge lasts a much shorter time if part of the heater
or an
additional link installed is allowed to glow like a lamp
filament at
turn on.


Actually, if it had any effect, which is doubtful because
of the
minuscule section affected, the surge would last longer
because it
would 'limit' (sic) the power input, so the rest would
take longer to
heat.

Just what the makers did to get the flash is not clear
until
someone provides evidence of exactly how it was done. I
suggest someone
smash open an old flasher and see what's inside. I'm too
busy with
orders for new amplifiers.


I already told you I *looked* and it's nothing more than
the last few
mills of the heater wire having no insulation.


Which illustrates the danger of allowing a hypothesis to
inform an observation, rather than vice-versa.

If Patrick's initial answer were correct, and if there is a
seperate link of special wire in series with the heater,
then it could look just like you have seen. What you can not
see by your inspection is your "nothing more than".

How do you know that the rest of the heater wire is the same
as what you see? How do you know that you are not looking at
the "special link"?

I am quite happy to accept that some flashers depend on an
exposed length of heater wire which is otherwise identical
to and continuous with the rest. But not on the basis of
your woefully inadequate observations.

And to establish that they are *all* like that would take
more than observation, practically. You would need
intelligence.

Ian


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Ian Bell[_2_] Ian Bell[_2_] is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Ian Iveson wrote:
Ian Bell wrote

Actually, in a conductor electricity does not 'flow at
the speed of light' the net flow of electrons in a
conductor is barely a few meters per second.
Two different things, depending on what you think
electricity is. Flow of electricity happens much faster
than your surely quaint "net flow of electrons".

Of course, hence the ,pedant/pedant tokens.



Sorry. Sometimes I fall prey to the temptation to be clever.
Actually I know sod all about electricity. I lost the plot
after the Bohr atom. These days I think of standing waves,
but not very clearly. Being a materialist, I have some
issues with explanations that place probability in the real
world.


Me too. And I believe there are possible new theories that don't require
it I am pleased to say.

The question "What is electricity?" is problematic, to say
the least.


Agreed!! It's really a question for the theorists and physicists. As an
engineer I an just thankful that electricity 'is' and I have empirical
rules for working with it ;-)

Cheers

Ian
cheers,

Ian


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Nick Gorham Nick Gorham is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Ian Bell wrote:
Ian Iveson wrote:

Ian Bell wrote

Actually, in a conductor electricity does not 'flow at the speed of
light' the net flow of electrons in a conductor is barely a few
meters per second.

Two different things, depending on what you think electricity is.
Flow of electricity happens much faster than your surely quaint "net
flow of electrons".

Of course, hence the ,pedant/pedant tokens.




Sorry. Sometimes I fall prey to the temptation to be clever. Actually
I know sod all about electricity. I lost the plot after the Bohr atom.
These days I think of standing waves, but not very clearly. Being a
materialist, I have some issues with explanations that place
probability in the real world.


Me too. And I believe there are possible new theories that don't require
it I am pleased to say.


Problem is the real world doesn't mind if you have issues, it still
keeps working the way it does. Have you any links to those new theories
it would be stunning if they replace the last 100 years of physics,
especially QED.

--
Nick
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Ian Bell[_2_] Ian Bell[_2_] is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Nick Gorham wrote:
Ian Bell wrote:
Ian Iveson wrote:

Ian Bell wrote

Actually, in a conductor electricity does not 'flow at the speed
of light' the net flow of electrons in a conductor is barely a few
meters per second.

Two different things, depending on what you think electricity is.
Flow of electricity happens much faster than your surely quaint
"net flow of electrons".

Of course, hence the ,pedant/pedant tokens.



Sorry. Sometimes I fall prey to the temptation to be clever. Actually
I know sod all about electricity. I lost the plot after the Bohr
atom. These days I think of standing waves, but not very clearly.
Being a materialist, I have some issues with explanations that place
probability in the real world.


Me too. And I believe there are possible new theories that don't
require it I am pleased to say.


Problem is the real world doesn't mind if you have issues, it still
keeps working the way it does. Have you any links to those new theories
it would be stunning if they replace the last 100 years of physics,
especially QED.



No direct link but if memory serves I read it in New Scientist about a
month ago (just in passing in the supermarket whilst the missus was
looking at clothes or something - you know how it is).

Cheers

Ian
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Ian Iveson Ian Iveson is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Nick Gorham wrote:

Actually, in a conductor electricity does not 'flow
at the speed of light' the net flow of electrons in a
conductor is barely a few meters per second.

Two different things, depending on what you think
electricity is. Flow of electricity happens much
faster than your surely quaint "net flow of
electrons".

Of course, hence the ,pedant/pedant tokens.



Sorry. Sometimes I fall prey to the temptation to be
clever. Actually I know sod all about electricity. I
lost the plot after the Bohr atom. These days I think of
standing waves, but not very clearly. Being a
materialist, I have some issues with explanations that
place probability in the real world.


Me too. And I believe there are possible new theories
that don't require it I am pleased to say.


Problem is


What problem?

the real world doesn't mind if you have issues,


Yes it does. I am part of the real world. My issues *are*
real.

Yes it does. Our effect on the real world has been profound,
and continues to be so.

Wake up.

At least you realise that the real world has a mind, so I'll
give you some credit there.

it still keeps working the way it does.


In what way is it possible for anything *not* to work the
way it does? What point are you making?

Have you any links to those new theories


If you depend for your science on links provided in news
groups, there is a good chance you will fail to progress
beyond your idealistic position of naive materialism. The
world cares about you; you owe it some sympathy. Make an
effort.

it would be stunning if they replace the last 100 years of
physics, especially QED.


Science makes progress all the time, in fits and starts. If
you allow yourself to be stunned by this, you'll be
continually short-handed in the consciousness department.

Even if Ian and I do nothing more for science than whinge
and drag our feet, we contribute much more than those who
blindly acquiesce. We are part of the real world. We care.
Have some respect.

Ian




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Nick Gorham Nick Gorham is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Ian Iveson wrote:
Nick Gorham wrote:


Actually, in a conductor electricity does not 'flow
at the speed of light' the net flow of electrons in a
conductor is barely a few meters per second.

Two different things, depending on what you think
electricity is. Flow of electricity happens much
faster than your surely quaint "net flow of
electrons".


Of course, hence the ,pedant/pedant tokens.



Sorry. Sometimes I fall prey to the temptation to be
clever. Actually I know sod all about electricity. I
lost the plot after the Bohr atom. These days I think of
standing waves, but not very clearly. Being a
materialist, I have some issues with explanations that
place probability in the real world.


Me too. And I believe there are possible new theories
that don't require it I am pleased to say.


Problem is



What problem?


The problem that QM produces results that are not in line with common sense.


the real world doesn't mind if you have issues,



Yes it does. I am part of the real world. My issues *are*
real.


No they are not, they are entirly subjective.


Yes it does. Our effect on the real world has been profound,
and continues to be so.

Wake up.

At least you realise that the real world has a mind, so I'll
give you some credit there.


it still keeps working the way it does.



In what way is it possible for anything *not* to work the
way it does? What point are you making?


The point that because our current theories don't make sense to most
peoples ape brains in not a reason for them to not provide a good model
of how the world operates.


Have you any links to those new theories



If you depend for your science on links provided in news
groups, there is a good chance you will fail to progress
beyond your idealistic position of naive materialism. The
world cares about you; you owe it some sympathy. Make an
effort.


As opposed to "a copy of new scientist that was browsed while out
shopping", doesn't seem any better way of gathering information.


it would be stunning if they replace the last 100 years of
physics, especially QED.



Science makes progress all the time, in fits and starts. If
you allow yourself to be stunned by this, you'll be
continually short-handed in the consciousness department.


Maybe so, your point being?

Even if Ian and I do nothing more for science than whinge
and drag our feet, we contribute much more than those who
blindly acquiesce. We are part of the real world. We care.
Have some respect.

Ian



Bad day at the office was it?

--
Nick
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RS McCown RS McCown is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

This doesn't answer any questions, but Mullard made filiments like so.
http://www.r-type.org/static/add045.htm
http://www.r-type.org/static/add044.htm

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Patrick Turner Patrick Turner is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec



RS McCown wrote:

This doesn't answer any questions, but Mullard made filiments like so.
http://www.r-type.org/static/add045.htm
http://www.r-type.org/static/add044.htm


Tungsten wire making goes on today in a big way because of the many
different applications of the use of tungsten.
Its a tough metal with a melting point over 3,400 degrees centigrade
making it ideal for a tube cathode or a tube cathode heating element
where if it runs at about 900C it is under little stress and very
unlikely to easily fail, especially in a vacuum of a tube.

So no need to feel anxious about the tube cathodes stressing out. They
are very reliable.

Unless some idiot connects too much voltage and current.

http://www.tungsten.com/mtstung.html

Also of interest about tungsten,

http://www.tungsten.com/tunghist.html

Its easy to take this stuff for granted but without tungsten we might
not be able to have tubes.

Patrick Turner.
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vtc vtc is offline
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Default At power on tube filaments light up more than normal for a sec

Jan wrote:
Flashing heaters, another reason to go solid state.

Jan


That's no reason at all since it's perfectly normal for some brands of
tubes to glow bright for an instant during power up. A lot of the
Serbian made Ei tubes such as ECC83 & 12DW7 behave this way & they sound
great. Many of the Mullard NOS tubes do the same thing. Perfectly normal.
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