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#1
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of
time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#2
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
What head unit are you using?
Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "Brian" wrote in message om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#3
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Sounds like you need to talk to pete.
http://www.theautophile.com/ FHLH "Brian" wrote in message om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#4
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the
test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding. _________ "Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ... What head unit are you using? Tony |
#6
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Now you're going to get all of the noobs in here telling you that all amps
sound the same. Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer. Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear. That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts, and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and then someone might take you seriously. Never forget the power of the brain to trick you, it is called physcoacoustics. Oh and Howdy if your so good then why do you not take the challenge from Clark, Puggy says he knows him so he can probably get you in. Les Right, because Howdy is always wrong. |
#7
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Here's the amps I've tried so far:
PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical. |
#8
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members'
tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests. I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change over time.. So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to sell. :-) Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years. The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial. Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the 360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance between the two problems I mentioned. Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps. Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "Brian" wrote in message om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#9
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested.
I belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to sell. :-) If history is any indication, Peter will say "The president of Dynaudio uses Brax. Why don't you?" |
#10
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Adcom makes/has made car audio amplifiers. You could try one of them if
you like them. Might check ebay. Also check out the Diamond Audio D5 or D7 amps. Brandonb Brian wrote: The head unit in my car is a Kenwood KDC-V7017. But for the test/comparison I used a home preamp. An ADCOM top-of-the-line unit that is Stereophile "Class A" rated. Its completely neutral sounding. _________ "Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ... What head unit are you using? Tony |
#11
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
It's called VOODOO Autosound....
"Mark Zarella" wrote in message That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical. |
#12
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
I doubt it was psychoacoustics, you probably drove your amp into clipping
(which is al ot easier to do than you might think) which is when they start to sound different. Paul Vina "Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ... Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members' tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests. I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change over time.. So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to sell. :-) Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years. The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial. Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the 360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance between the two problems I mentioned. Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps. Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "Brian" wrote in message om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#13
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
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#14
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Howdy Doody, you are back. Bummer.
Most, those that have been here a few months, know that I am not a noob and I say this; When you operate an amp within its' linear range any differences that exist, and they do, are inaudible to the human ear. That statement can be, and has been, proven several times over. Graphs, charts, and actual scientific listening tests have proven it time and time again, yet you insist that all of the scientific data is wrong and you are right. Provide some sort of scientific evidence that we can actually hear the differences and then someone might take you seriously. Take me for what you will, I don't care. I can hear the difference between amps and more so on the low end. After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can. The onboard processing that amps come with now days set them apart more then ever in sound differences. I'm not the only one with super human hearing, there are more of us that are in the wrong, that shell out all kinds of money for pure class A and tube amps and such. We even go through all kinds of amps until we find "the one" that takes a liking to our super human hears. It's crazy, isn't it? Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics apply to your car too. |
#15
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can. What necessary controls are you talking? Not really. If it makes you happy, go for it. You should, however, be honest with yourself about it by acknowledging that the laws of physics apply to your car too. I guess that the laws of physics apply to your car more then mine lol. |
#16
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
After you admitted to never performing a properly controlled test, your
statement is meaningless. I can hear the difference between amps too when I don't perform the necessary controls. I think everyone can. What necessary controls are you talking? I thought we had already discussed this before. The most crucial ones are level matching, double-blind testing using the appropriate statistical measures, and assuring linearity during operation. |
#17
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
To me, the telling comments were these:
"just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording." Q: How do you know? Were you present in the studio when it was mixed down? and: "there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all." This, in an amp that is flat out to 50kHz and has usable bandwidth out to 100kHz? Right... last: "From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution," There's a rich breeding ground for psychoacoustics if I ever saw one... JD fhlh002 wrote: It's called VOODOO Autosound.... "Mark Zarella" wrote in message That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical. |
#18
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
"Brian" wrote in message
om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. I would add Genesis, LinearPower, a/d/s/, and....I can't think of my last option. |
#19
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same. How many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most people crank their amps for all that they are worth. I thought we had already discussed this before. The most crucial ones are level matching, double-blind testing using the appropriate statistical measures, and assuring linearity during operation. |
#20
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend of
mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of our bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute for him as a singer doesn't know music from sound. "Mark Zarella" wrote in message ... Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. That's odd. The frequency response of these two amps is identical. |
#21
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same. It's important to level match because the assertion, as I've stated it many many times, is that the two sound the same IF both are running at the same volume level and they're both running in their linear operating range (that is, one isn't clipping). When one is running at a louder volume than the other, or one is driven into distortion, then of course you can perceive a difference! How many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most people crank their amps for all that they are worth. Yeah, but that's not the question at hand. Follow closely. |
#22
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
"Frequency response" doesn't speak to sound quality. I and a good friend
of mine who sings for a living can make the same range of sound come out of our bodies. However, anyone that thinks that that fact makes me a substitute for him as a singer doesn't know music from sound. I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Any signal, whether it's your voice or a voltage or anything else, can be fully classified by its frequency and phase response, and can actually be recreated just by knowing these two parameters. The difference in your voices can be fully represented by differences in the frequency domain. I suggest you do some introductory reading on Fourier transforms. |
#23
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for
say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same. How many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most people crank their amps for all that they are worth. So?? It doesn't change the FACT that when you level match amps and operate them linearly they sound the same. All of this BS about "air" and lacks midrange when an amps freq. resp. is FLAT from 10Hz-50KHz is ridiculous. Different levels, crossover points, bass boost, distortion, and your own ears tricking you is the differences. Why do you fight so hard to deny what is a fact? Les |
#24
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real world, it's totally pointless. In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: Level matching my nuts lol, Take a 200watt Profile and a 200watt Orion for say, crank the gain wide open and let me know if the **** sounds the same. It's important to level match because the assertion, as I've stated it many many times, is that the two sound the same IF both are running at the same volume level and they're both running in their linear operating range (that is, one isn't clipping). When one is running at a louder volume than the other, or one is driven into distortion, then of course you can perceive a difference! How many people do you know of that setup their amps with oscilloscopes? Most people crank their amps for all that they are worth. Yeah, but that's not the question at hand. Follow closely. |
#26
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just
as long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real world, it's totally pointless. It's not pointless when your assertion is that amplifiers inherently have different sound attributes even when the power is the same. When you make that statement, you have to make certain that the power is kept the same for each case if you want to test your assertion. If instead your assertion is that amplifiers can sound different at different power levels, then you won't find anyone who argues with you on that point. |
#27
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
This brings me to my point, Different levels, crossover points, bass
boost, distortion and whatever else may factor in. The point is that this guy is hearing differences in these amplifiers. Right. Then the solution to his problem is: buy a bigger amp - it won't matter what name is stamped on the front. I'm guessing he'd find that solution unsatisfactory. He appears convinced that there's an audible component independent of output power capabilities (and tone/crossover controls of course). |
#29
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
In addition lol, Take this big ass silly turd of a PPI PC4100 that I have
sitting here, It's a 4 channel 4x 100watt rms at 4ohms, No matter what you do you will not get the front channels to sound the same as the rears, why? Well, that's because the front and rear x-overs are not evenly matched and can not be bypassed. Yikes. Short some wires. Make the op amps look like a buffer. |
#30
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real world, it's totally pointless. It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5 miles an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not be "faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette, obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal, they perform the same. If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is putting out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats how I am understanding this whole debate. Nick |
#31
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5
miles an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not be "faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette, obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal, they perform the same. If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is putting out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats how I am understanding this whole debate. That's correct. And we're also assuming that neither amp is being driven into clipping when trying to attain that 100 watts. |
#32
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
This brings me to my point, Different levels, crossover points, bass boost,
distortion and whatever else may factor in. The point is that this guy is hearing differences in these amplifiers. But what is he actually hearing and what is psycoacoustics? The stuff about "air" and lacks midrange is frankly crap. How can you hear the difference that isn't there? Most amps I have tested or seen tests of are flat from somewhere around 10-50,000Hz. No difference. When you understand that alot of differences are inaudible you can then understand that there are more important things to consider when choosing an amp. The OP was looking at all of this SQ stuff when there are more important things. You perpetuate that myth by not recognizing the fact that they all sound the same (under the listed conditions) and recognize that there are more important factors at play. Les |
#33
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Thats like saying that I can keep up to your corvette on my bmx bike just as
long as you are behind the car pushing it. Might be true, but in the real world, it's totally pointless. Totally pointless analogy too. But it is not totally pointless about SQ of amps. There are more important factors at play that should be considered, which we have discussed before. Les |
#34
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
With all of the different options between amps such as x-overs, bass-boost,
compression, it's hard to get any two amps to sound the same. Another problem is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps. Although I see what you are saying, in the real world where you have a guy popping an amp into his car and tuning it by hear and more often then not to get max power out of the amp driving it into clipping or out of the performance range of the previous amp, its easier then not to hear audible differences between amps, in this case especially in low end, since low end requires the most power to drive. In article , "Mark Zarella" wrote: It seems to me that the point being made is that if a Corvette is going 5 miles an hour, and a bike is also going exactly 5 miles an hour... One will not be "faster" than the other. Now, if you floor the pedal on that Corvette, obviously its going to ditch the bike. But with everything being equal, they perform the same. If a cheap amp is putting out a real 100 watts, and an expensive amp is putting out the same 100 watts, the differences won't be audible. At least, thats how I am understanding this whole debate. That's correct. And we're also assuming that neither amp is being driven into clipping when trying to attain that 100 watts. |
#35
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps. How is it not the same? It seems that is the point that people are trying to make... That it IS the same. I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I'm curious... I know little about the subject really, but it seems to me that 100 watts is 100 watts.. no matter what its source. Nick |
#36
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
With all of the different options between amps such as x-overs,
bass-boost, compression, it's hard to get any two amps to sound the same. It's quite easy. You turn the tone controls and crossovers off. Richard Clark does it all the time in his $10k testing. Another problem is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps. Sure it is. The problem, however, is that some manufacturers lie. Although I see what you are saying, in the real world where you have a guy popping an amp into his car and tuning it by hear and more often then not to get max power out of the amp driving it into clipping or out of the performance range of the previous amp, its easier then not to hear audible differences between amps, in this case especially in low end, since low end requires the most power to drive. Well, no, that's not really what I meant. I've been talking about inherent differences between amplifiers. Aside from tone controls and the like, and reliability, etc, the only audible difference between any two amps is that which arises from one being louder than the other (or not being driven into clipping) due to differences in power output. There's nothing inherently better *sounding* about, say, a Brax amp compared to a Kenwood amp. |
#37
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Another problem
is that 100watts is not the same between any two amps. How is it not the same? It seems that is the point that people are trying to make... That it IS the same. I'm not asking to argue, I'm asking because I'm curious... I know little about the subject really, but it seems to me that 100 watts is 100 watts.. no matter what its source. 100 watts IS 100 watts. But distortion content will differ between amplifiers. However, simply put, it's too low to be audible. |
#38
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Holy ****, I forgot all about making this post, then I did a search
for Diamond Audio amps and it came up! Thanks Tony (and everyone else) for your input. I'm going to check in with Pete, as you suggested. I tried a DLS Ultimate amp tonight (the A3 "dual mono") and, although it lacked a little in the bass, the midrange and highs were great. The best so far. (And those little pink elephants coming out of the speakers were really neat too...) lol But, seriously, the DLS amp was good ****. I heard this is similar in design in certain respects to the Genesis amps that someone here had recommended. Someone else also sugested trying Audison VRx series, and Diamond D7 series. Yes, also Brax, Adcom (ebay), A/D/S, McIntosh and Xtant. I only wish I had time to spend trying all these different amps out. lol If anyone has experience with any of these amps mentioned, please comment. Perhaps some opinions could help narrow it down a bit. btw, there is no doubt in my mind that different amps have their own "sonic signatures" when playing actual music and driving an actual speaker load. Thanks again for all the great advice and suggestions. -Brian _________ "Tony Fernandes" wrote in message ... Well, Brian, although I don't want to dismiss several other senior members' tesimony about all amps sounding the same, I have to sympathize with you. I too feel I can describe in detail the different qualites of different amplifiers. I dunno...maybe this is physcoacoustics as Soundfreak suggests. I still have a lot to learn, so who knows...maybe my opinion will change over time.. So IN THE MEAN TIME I suggest you contact Pete Lufrano as FHLH suggested. I belive he has experience with several of the amps you mentioned. I've heard nothing but good things about Brax amplifiers, which he just happens to sell. :-) Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years. The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system actively with the built-in PG xovers and it sounded a little artificial. Some people I talked to seemed to believe that the Linkweitz Reilly (I know I'm not spelling that right) xovers that PG uses are to blame for this. When I ran the system using the Dyn passive xovers this didn't seem to be a problem...although this presented another problem in that at higher volumes it lost quite a bit of detail. I am currently in the process of getting the 360 set into my Maxima and I'll be running the 8-inch midwoofer actively and using the Dyn passive xover for the tweets and mids. Kind of a balance between the two problems I mentioned. Well, more than you asked for. Hope it helps. Tony -- What's more likely? That an all-powerful mysterious god created the universe and then decided not to give any proof of his existence? Or, that he simply doesn't exist at all? And that we created him so that we wouldn't have to feel so small and alone. -Eleanor Arroway, Contact "Brian" wrote in message om... Please offer your advice on what amp to get. I've wasted a lot of time/money and its time to seek some expert advice before going any further! I've managed to cram a Dynaudio System 360 into the front doors and kick-panels of a 2003 Passat. (3-way system with 8" midbass, 3" softdome midrange, and 1" softdome tweeter.) In the rear doors is a Dynaudio System 240 (2-way system with 6-1/2" midbass and 1" softdome tweeter.) All speakers are standard 4ohm. I'd like to power these full range (no subs) using the Dynaudio passive crossover boxes. The amp characteristic I'm trying to achieve would be similar to an Aragon 8008 (home audio amp). I've not been able to find a car audio amp that sounds like it. Its a very neutral sound. Doesn't add anything thats not already there, but just faithfully provides everything thats in the recording. Here's the amps I've tried so far: PPI PCX-4125 (125W x4ch) -- I love the rich midrange and midbass, but the highs are a little rough and there is absolutely no extended highs ("air") at all. Zapco C2K-6.0X (150W x2ch -- used to power all 4 speakers as a 2ohm stereo load) -- This amp is incredibly clean-sounding. The extended highs are immaculate. But it sounds thin in the midrange, as if something is missing. The meat and potatoes just not there. Butler Tube Driver Blue TDB-475 (75W x4ch) -- From what I've read, I expected this amp to be the solution, but it sounds weak in the bass and mid-bass and is just not neutral enough. It has an interesting sound, but is somehow "fake", as if the sound is going through some kind of sound processer to give it some sort of "effect". (I guess thats what the tubes are adding to the sound?) The music just didn't sound "real" to me. I actually hooked up my Aragon 8008 home amp to run these Dynaudio speakers, and it sounded perfect, so its not just a case of me searching for something thats impossible. Is there a car amp that can do what the Aragon can do? (If it was possible to convert the Aragon to run on 12VDC, I would!) Do you have any opinions on an amp that is very neutral, but also has some "meat and potatoes" in the midrange and midbass? (that has the rich PPI mid-bass/mid-range, but also with the Zapco's pristine extended-highs.) (4 channel is preferred, but not mandatory) Any guidance would be greatly appreciated !! Thank you. |
#39
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest?
Whats their best stuff? Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years. The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system actively |
#40
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your Car Amplifier advice, please!
Why don't you go to their site and find out for yourself seeing as no matter
how much good advice we give you, you still come to your own goofball conclusions anyway. Paul Vina "Brian" wrote in message om... I haven't tried PG yet. What model (or series) can you suggest? Whats their best stuff? Having said that I want to know if you've auditioned Phoenix Gold amps. ZX series, or the newer Titanium series. I've been hooked on them for years. The happiest I have ever been in terms of SQ was when I had my Nakamichi CD-700 powering the aforementioned PG amps wtih the same Dyn 360 set you have. The only bad thing I can say is I was running the entire system actively |
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