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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



Prune wrote:

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and they say
these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed to the regular
thermal noise) they are talking about.


Having read it in more detail now, I'm inclined to complain to Vishay about some
of it's content which is plainly incorrect !

They can't even spell Boltzmann correctly ( as in his constant ).
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac...Boltzmann.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann's_constant

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used. Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable, I guess to make their product look fancier in comparison.

Some 'authenticity nuts' like to use carbon composition of course, which says a
lot about their mental condition !

They make claims anbout 'noise free resistors' when such things don't even
exist.

And several other example of total ******** such as
" The major objection to wirewounds, however, is the inductance that chops the
peaks and fails to replicate the higher frequencies of the second and third
harmonics."

I'd question their figures for metal film too.

Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's part.

Graham

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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Eeyore wrote in
:
Your argument incidentally could also be levelled at idiots with their
own websites. As in any ****tard can put their own website online.
There is *no* safeguard about these whatever and indeed they pose a
greater risk.


Indeed, that's why I only trust corporate and government websites.
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Eeyore wrote in
:
Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's
part.


Like I guessed. Nonetheless, I've heard good reviews from people that have
used them. I was mostly on Roederstein MK3s, and in critical positions
like feedback, Caddock MK132, but I may switch to these, as the
Roedersteins are long out of production and getting hard to source, while
the Caddocks are just as expensive as these metal foils Vishays.
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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors


"Prune"

** ****ing Idiot

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tinfoil

http://www.answers.com/topic/tin-foil

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18...1/tinfoil.html






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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Hi RATs!

Sonic Accuracy ?!*?
Hi - Fi ?

I am having fun with my Audio toyboxes and you are talking rubbish.

Life is not serious. I am not serious. You are pathetic.

Do you understand the word pathetic?

Why are you so afraid to hear anything? It ain't all quivering air
molecules, occasionally a human is making Music.

You ever heard of Music?

It is against the law in some places. People who live there all want to
kill and die.

I understand them. You, I just despise

Happy Ears!
Al






Eeyore wrote:
Making a radical change to the circuit arrangement will of course be audible.

AIUI your mod increases distortion which some ppl find audibly pleasing. This
may indeed 'enrich' listening for you but it has absolutely nothing to do with
hi-fi or sonic accuracy.

Indeed for precisely these kinds of reasons - recording studios own all manners
of outboard effects to provide this kind of 'enhancement'.

Your method is akin to wiring in an such a processor permanently with no way of
turning it off so as to hear the original.

Graham




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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

"Phil Allison" wrote in news:4iegd8F3cuavU1
@individual.net:
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tinfoil


"a paper-thin metal sheeting usually of aluminum or ***tin-lead alloy***"

http://www.answers.com/topic/tin-foil


"A thin, pliable sheet of aluminum or of ***tin-lead alloy***, used as a
protective wrapping.

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_18...1/tinfoil.html


"***tin, or an alloy of tin and lead***, in a very thin sheet"

I rest my case.
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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

" wrote in
oups.com:

blah blah subjectivist nonsense blah blah


At first I was wondering, then I saw the aol.com host and all was clear X-D
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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors


"Prune"


** ****ING ILLITERATE !!






....... Phil


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Prune wrote:
Eeyore wrote in
:
Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's
part.


Like I guessed. Nonetheless, I've heard good reviews from people that have
used them. I was mostly on Roederstein MK3s, and in critical positions
like feedback, Caddock MK132, but I may switch to these, as the
Roedersteins are long out of production and getting hard to source, while
the Caddocks are just as expensive as these metal foils Vishays.


They also say '...a compliment of commercial parts...' - they really
meant complement unless they are praising the extra noise

Cheers

PeteS

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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Hi RATs!

The Object of your affection has given you an infection. Nothing to be
done but cut off your head

Happy Ears!
Al



Prune wrote:

blah blah subjectivist nonsense blah blah


At first I was wondering, then I saw the aol.com host and all was clear X-D




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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Well, it's certainly a creative comeback, if one that doesn't quite make
sense...


" wrote in
oups.com:

Hi RATs!

The Object of your affection has given you an infection. Nothing to be
done but cut off your head

Happy Ears!
Al



Prune wrote:

blah blah subjectivist nonsense blah blah


At first I was wondering, then I saw the aol.com host and all was
clear X-D




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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



Prune wrote:

I was talking about this:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/49435/49435.pdf

Much of it is marketing, of course, but Table 1 is interesting and they say
these are measured results of this current noise (as opposed to the regular
thermal noise) they are talking about.


Having read it in more detail now, I'm inclined to complain to Vishay about some
of it's content which is plainly incorrect !

They can't even spell Boltzmann correctly ( as in his constant ).
http://www-history.mcs.st-andrews.ac...Boltzmann.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Boltzmann
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boltzmann's_constant

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used. Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable, I guess to make their product look fancier in comparison.

Some 'authenticity nuts' like to use carbon composition of course, which says a
lot about their mental condition !

They make claims anbout 'noise free resistors' when such things don't even
exist.

And several other example of total ******** such as
" The major objection to wirewounds, however, is the inductance that chops the
peaks and fails to replicate the higher frequencies of the second and third
harmonics."

I'd question their figures for metal film too.

Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's part.

Graham



This is pretty bad. The "trained ear" thing, and the testimonial as a
result of a non-blind hearing test, are typical sonicbabble.

Their claim that crystal grain boundaries are the source of resistance
is simply absurd. Single metallic crystals, like turbine blades, are
not superconductors.

It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise (which
they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or oxide resistors,
which might matter in audio applications but seldom does. In something
without DC bias, like an attenuator, it simply won't matter.

They rate thickfilms as "unacceptable" at -10 dB, which is -130 dB
shot noise with their scale (uV/V) properly adjusted. If they had
honestly shown the resistor table as going from -160 to -95 dB, it
would have been obvious that this issue is mostly bogus. Where are you
going to get a signal source that has a 120 dB s/n ratio?

Vishay foil resistors are good in some hyper-precision applications,
but are insane for audio. Because of the way they're trimmed, their
series inductance varies from part to part, and their heatsinked parts
have ghastly eddy-current hooks, 2000 ppm or more transient errors,
which is why we make our own current shunts.

But mainline companies like Vishay and Belden write golden-ear
nonsense to play to the audiophool niche market.

John



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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:16:40 GMT, Prune
wrote:

Eeyore wrote in
:
Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's
part.


Like I guessed. Nonetheless, I've heard good reviews from people that have
used them. I was mostly on Roederstein MK3s, and in critical positions
like feedback, Caddock MK132, but I may switch to these, as the
Roedersteins are long out of production and getting hard to source, while
the Caddocks are just as expensive as these metal foils Vishays.


The Caddock stuff is thickfilm, which has classic shot noise. This
doesn't matter, you know.

John

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Eeyore wrote:

Having read it in more detail now, I'm inclined to complain to Vishay about some
of it's content which is plainly incorrect !

They can't even spell Boltzmann correctly ( as in his constant ).


You can't even spell its correctly. I find it amusing that someone who
can't spell a common three letter word complaining about someone else's
spelling of a foreign name...
/dry humor off

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

John Larkin wrote
in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:


Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham



It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications but
seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an attenuator,
it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com



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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Eeyore wrote:

(a whole bagpipes full of wind, reproduced below)

Graham

Pro-audio designer ( that's the stuff that *makes* the recordings you listen to
btw ) for 30 years


No, Poopie, we've discussed this before and decided that when you could
still find employment you homogenized music into lowest-denominator
muzak. There's a gulf between Al's hedonism and the blunt instrument of
your mindless rote-learning of a few "scientific" facts. The chasm is
called culture and explains why most of us believe Al and not you.

Andre Jute
Stop bleating. Please, please, please give me the Silence of the Lambs.

PS Not that I'm about to rush out and buy caps that expensive. Common
catalogue films suit my audio systems well.

PPS The most important point in Al's writings in this interesting
thread is his insistence on the system working well together.

Here is wretched Poopie's letter in full:

********

Eeyore wrote:
" wrote:

Hi RATs!

OK, since all wise men know everything in Audio is BS, then anybody who
thinks they hear something is crazy. Fair enough.


You may be hearing 'something' but you've been brainwashed into thinking it's
about some nebulous unspecified kind of 'quality'

All capacitors have a tolerance on their value for instance. For film caps used
in audio are typically +- 5 or 10%

So, a 0.47uF cap may actually be 0.43 or 0.52 uF, worse still for 20% tolerance
part. If it's used in an appication that's particularly value sensitive like a
filter stage there will indeed be obvious differences in performance ( frequency
response most obviously ) that are easily measured such as turnover frequency
and slope. Of couse the uneducated hear a difference and jump to the conclusion
that their shiny new capacitor is *better*, because they know no better and of
course because that's what they've been told to think.


And since all wise men know Vodka cannot have any beneficial effect on
your palate, by Law!, it is all BS, too. Good thinking.

And Music only sounds good if you think about it properly, just like
you do.


Music can also sound better under the influence of certain substances, proving
beyond doubt that all human perception is subjective and fallible on a day to
day basis.


Sure. That line of reasoning is elegant in its simplicity

Now, please explain why we have to ask you what we may or may not hear?


Because you might be interested in the underlying science - which I can assure
you is the most effective way to first-class reproduction rather than Silly
Billy fiddling with components maybe ?


Is it because nobody ever can have any fun unless you say so? Great
plan. Good luck.

If you are the only non-fool, we are mostly fools, so only you know
anything useful.

I don't mind. Why do you think I care if you do?


If you're happy being a gullible fool, more power to you ! Spend more on those
magic components !

Graham

Pro-audio designer ( that's the stuff that *makes* the recordings you listen to
btw ) for 30 years


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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



Prune wrote:

Eeyore wrote in
:
Your argument incidentally could also be levelled at idiots with their
own websites. As in any ****tard can put their own website online.
There is *no* safeguard about these whatever and indeed they pose a
greater risk.


Indeed, that's why I only trust corporate and government websites.


Including Vishay's ? ;~)

Graham


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:38:28 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:



wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

Having read it in more detail now, I'm inclined to complain to Vishay about some
of it's content which is plainly incorrect !

They can't even spell Boltzmann correctly ( as in his constant ).


You can't even spell its correctly. I find it amusing that someone who
can't spell a common three letter word complaining about someone else's
spelling of a foreign name...
/dry humor off


An annoying rare example of a typo for me.

Graham


Really? I remember one just a few days ago ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

John Larkin wrote
in :

On 22 Jul 2006 16:25:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

John Larkin
wrote in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:


Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham


It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications
but seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an
attenuator, it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


Since the audio types can't measure what's happening, truth
becomes a matter of hormones and rhetoric.


But Kevin claimed that he's a professional engineer, and has
worked designing analog monolithic circuits for Texas
Instruments.

http://www.anasoft.co.uk/founder.html


Of course, Graham deliberately kicked the beehive when he
posted something like this to both audio and electronics
design groups, natural enemies if ever there were such.

I *do* work at 120 dB s/n ratios over DC-50 KHz bandwidths and
I do use surface-mount thickfilm resistors.


Pretty much the same here,

John



--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On 22 Jul 2006 16:25:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

John Larkin wrote
in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:


Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham



It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications but
seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an attenuator,
it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


Since the audio types can't measure what's happening, truth becomes a
matter of hormones and rhetoric.

Of course, Graham deliberately kicked the beehive when he posted
something like this to both audio and electronics design groups,
natural enemies if ever there were such.

I *do* work at 120 dB s/n ratios over DC-50 KHz bandwidths and I do
use surface-mount thickfilm resistors.

John


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

wrote in
ups.com:


Good resistors don't have shot noise - which is what you see
when your current is flowing as single non-interacting
electrons or holes, so that the currnt is genuinely quantised.


Granted. but there are good resistors and bad resistors. and a
bad thin film deposited on a contaminated substrate will exhibit
an excess noise, which when analysed is different from the
excess noise of a cruddy carbon resistor, and is in fact, truly,
shot noise.

Good resistors do have Johnson noise, which simply reflects
the electron cloud carrying the current is a room temperature
so that the individual electroncs are doing a bit of Brownian
motion on top of the drift due to the elecric field.

Crap resistors have "excess noise" which is to say, more than
Johnson noise.

Yes, and there are several mechanisms by which this excess noise
may be generated. Some is due to the mechanical stress and
strain imposed on the resistance element. Some is due to
electron tunneling through the non-conductive portions of the
device.

The fact that you lump it all into "excess noise" just means you
haven't analysed its origins.

--
Bob Quintal

PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from
http://www.teranews.com

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



John Larkin wrote:

On 22 Jul 2006 16:25:53 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:

John Larkin wrote
in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:

Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham


It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications but
seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an attenuator,
it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


Since the audio types can't measure what's happening, truth becomes a
matter of hormones and rhetoric.

Of course, Graham deliberately kicked the beehive when he posted
something like this to both audio and electronics design groups,
natural enemies if ever there were such.


Not natural enemies IMHO. Certainly shouldn't be. I believe that science holds
the relevant answers if only correctly applied.

There do seem to be any number of clowns in the 'esoteric' audio biz who simply
don't believe in science though.

Your point about the uV/V graph being displaced by 120dB from normal is highly
relevant and a great way of being disingenuous by Vishay.

Having said all of that, I have come across cheap 'n nasty metal film parts that
are significantly noisier than those from the 'better' manufacturers btw. I
can't however see any rationale for requiring anything better than good quality
metal film in audio.

Graham

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors


Bob Quintal wrote:
John Larkin wrote
in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:


Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham



It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications but
seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an attenuator,
it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


Good resistors don't have shot noise - which is what you see when your
current is flowing as single non-interacting electrons or holes, so
that the currnt is genuinely quantised.

Good resistors do have Johnson noise, which simply reflects the
electron cloud carrying the current is a room temperature so that the
individual electroncs are doing a bit of Brownian motion on top of the
drift due to the elecric field.

Crap resistors have "excess noise" which is to say, more than Johnson
noise.

Kevin Alyward understands this sort of stuff, and you clearly don't.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable,


Bull****. Still widely used in the power supply industry. Bulk
mediums are required for arc suppression, and are also good as current
limiters in HV applications.


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Some 'authenticity nuts' like to use carbon composition of course, which says a
lot about their mental condition !

They make claims anbout 'noise free resistors' when such things don't even
exist.


You're a brainless wonder. Of course you cannot abate all noise.
The goal is to make one as noise free as possible.
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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

Hi RATs!

Objectivists are nice people who make all the correct technical choices
for all the wrong reasons.

Of course it doesn't make sense. Recreating portions of an empathic
artistic experience requires a bit more than a high rez copier

Nice write ups on:

http://www.clarisonus.com/blog/

Well, except for my brain dead trailer trash gurglings ...

Happy Ears!
Al

PS I once (ca. 1967) worked as a guard at the Walker Art Center in
Minneapolis. When patrons asked if these were real paintings and
sculptures, I reassured them (I lied, OK?) they were just copies
(people were fearful the originals might get damaged, no one would
bother defacing a mere copy, back in them good old days). Minneapolis
was once a great distance from Athens, Rome, London and Paris. No
longer far enough, sigh. Nepal is just a train ride away, these days.

PPS I am married to a pianist. I love her and her friends much more
than any of the dip**** engineers I ever worked with. Sorry, technical
descriptions are never literature, even, or perhaps especially, when
marketing tries to pretty them up with fancy lies


Prune wrote:

Well, it's certainly a creative comeback, if one that doesn't quite make
sense...


" wrote

Hi RATs!

The Object of your affection has given you an infection. Nothing to be
done but cut off your head

Happy Ears!
Al


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used. Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable, I guess to make their product look fancier in comparison.


They mentioned four resistor manufacturing methods.
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on Vishay's part.


The misspelling of Boltzmann merely means that a non electronics
trained person write the PDF. The data, given to that person was
written as given, and that person made no embellishments whatsoever.

It was a misspelling. Period.
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:09:58 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

Where are you
going to get a signal source that has a 120 dB s/n ratio?


A modulated laser, and the output from the laser detector.


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

John Larkin wrote
in :

On 22 Jul 2006 18:03:38 GMT, Bob Quintal


wrote:



I *do* work at 120 dB s/n ratios over DC-50 KHz bandwidths

and
I do use surface-mount thickfilm resistors.


Pretty much the same here,


Cool. I do NMR gradient-coil drivers. What do you do?

John

amongst other things, image sensor front ends for telescopes.


--
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PA is y I've altered my email address.

--
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On 22 Jul 2006 11:40:10 -0700, wrote:


Bob Quintal wrote:
John Larkin wrote
in :

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
wrote:


Definitely written by the marketing dept and a poor show on
Vishay's part.

Graham


It is true that metallic resistors have much less shot noise
(which they strangely call "current noise") than carbon or
oxide resistors, which might matter in audio applications but
seldom does. In something without DC bias, like an attenuator,
it simply won't matter.

Maybe Vishay hired that id10t Kevin Aylward, who called me all
sorts of terrible things when I told him that resistors have
shot noise... and said a lot of other remarkably stupid things
as well.


Good resistors don't have shot noise - which is what you see when your
current is flowing as single non-interacting electrons or holes, so
that the currnt is genuinely quantised.

Good resistors do have Johnson noise, which simply reflects the
electron cloud carrying the current is a room temperature so that the
individual electroncs are doing a bit of Brownian motion on top of the
drift due to the elecric field.

Crap resistors have "excess noise" which is to say, more than Johnson
noise.

Kevin Alyward understands this sort of stuff, and you clearly don't.



http://www.lorentz.leidenuniv.nl/bee...ise/noise.html

http://www.eng.yale.edu/qlab/papers/..._shotnoise.pdf

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJ/...667932863Guest


I think that carbon and thickfilm (metal oxide) resistors have serious
shot noise, and metallic resistors have very little, at least until
they get very small. I don't know if thickfilms approach or exceed
Poisson-level noise, or exactly what "very small" is; clarifications
would be appreciated.

Of course, if you keep DC away from critical resistors, the shot noise
becomes a tiny signal gain modulation that can hardly ever matter.

John


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On 22 Jul 2006 18:03:38 GMT, Bob Quintal
wrote:



I *do* work at 120 dB s/n ratios over DC-50 KHz bandwidths and
I do use surface-mount thickfilm resistors.


Pretty much the same here,


Cool. I do NMR gradient-coil drivers. What do you do?

John


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 18:49:25 GMT, Phat Bytestard
wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 08:09:58 -0700, John Larkin
Gave us:

Where are you
going to get a signal source that has a 120 dB s/n ratio?


A modulated laser, and the output from the laser detector.


You're joking, right? Lasers and photodetectors are the nastiest,
noisiest things around; I've been fighting that particular issue all
week. A photodiode has full shot noise, too.

Well, maybe a picosecond-speed optical link with KHz FM modulation
could get close, at a system bandwidth penalty around 1e9.

John

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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



Phat Bytestard wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable,


Bull****. Still widely used in the power supply industry. Bulk
mediums are required for arc suppression, and are also good as current
limiters in HV applications.


Well...... I don't see them stocked by the usual suspects.

Graham




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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



Phat Bytestard wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Some 'authenticity nuts' like to use carbon composition of course, which says a
lot about their mental condition !

They make claims anbout 'noise free resistors' when such things don't even
exist.


You're a brainless wonder. Of course you cannot abate all noise.
The goal is to make one as noise free as possible.


Which is what I said !

As for brainless, perhaps you'd care to read a post accurately first before making
daft comments. Indeed, why would I have mentioned Boltzmann's constant in this
context if I didn't know damn well the issues ?

Graham


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors



Phat Bytestard wrote:

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used. Instead they mention
only the truly miserable carbon composition which is long obsolete and today
unobtainable, I guess to make their product look fancier in comparison.


They mentioned four resistor manufacturing methods.


Leaving out of the widest used !

Graham


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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 11:48:12 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

They fail to mention carbon film which is very widely used.


The entire selling point of the sheet was that they are very low
noise compared to other resistor manufacturing mediums.

Noise in a resistor occurs because resistance mediums are actually
heavily diluted semiconductors. The electrons bang around on their
way through. It's a loose lattice.
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Default Vishay talk ******** - was Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:28:55 +0100, Eeyore
Gave us:

Leaving out of the widest used !


In the audio industry?
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Default Teflon Film Tin Foil capacitors


wrote in message
oups.com...
Hi RATs!

http://v-cap.com/tefloncapacitors.html

never mind the mumbo-jumbo deluxe chatter:

These things sound better than her saying this is your lucky night ...

sell your Mother down the river and get what you really need: some new
capacitors.

Happy Ears!
Al Marcy

PS These sound too good for some people. You know who you are ...


Hi Al,
Good to see you back. RAT is pretty much as you remember, with all the
personalities in good working order (as you already see)! Boy, for your
first thread in good long time, you really hit it out of the park! Lots of
different opinions and rants but the cap price is probably indicative of the
labor / set up time for a special low volume product, not necessarily ALL
profit. Whether it is worthwhile is really up to the individual considering.
Me, that's unexplored territory (expensive audio caps) but I hear better
things with tubes which some say is nonsense too...so?? We'll see.
MarkS


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