"George M. Middius" wrote:

Brother Horace the Inimitably Forgetful squawked:

you work evenings (I think)

Harold, this is quite an achievement for you. You actually remembered which
person you're screeching at and what kind of work he does. I have to say
congratulations to your doctor for (finally) prescribing the right
medication.

Now I realize this impressive feat of yours may be a fluke, perhaps
equivalent to hitting the bull's-eye on a dartboard from 50 feet away. Just
to show us whether you've suddenly gained a big shot of astuteness, see if
you can remember the same thing about some of the rest of us.

What does Jacob Kramer do?

What does Scott Wheeler do?

What does Marc Phillips do?

What do I do?

Go for it, Clerkie. Show us what you're made of. ;-)

Well, most of you are goofballs and goofoffs. I have no
opinion of this guy Jacob Kramer.

Heck, for all I know all of you are the same person.

Howard Ferstler

Brother Horace the Pointlessly Repetitive groused:

Brother Horace the Inimitably Forgetful squawked:

you work evenings (I think)

Harold, this is quite an achievement for you. You actually remembered which
person you're screeching at and what kind of work he does. I have to say
congratulations to your doctor for (finally) prescribing the right
medication.

Now I realize this impressive feat of yours may be a fluke, perhaps
equivalent to hitting the bull's-eye on a dartboard from 50 feet away. Just
to show us whether you've suddenly gained a big shot of astuteness, see if
you can remember the same thing about some of the rest of us.

What does Jacob Kramer do?

What does Scott Wheeler do?

What does Marc Phillips do?

What do I do?

Go for it, Clerkie. Show us what you're made of. ;-)

Well, most of you are much smarter than me. I will note that I am a failure
because political maneuvering derailed my promising career in academia.

Oh dear. Looks like it was a fluke.

Heck, for all I know all of you are the same person.

As I explained before, paranoia is not a good reason for suspecting
conspiracies behind every conversation. I'm pretty darned confident nobody
is out to get you, Harold. Know why? Because you have no value. Take down
Ferstler, and win .... nothing. A victory forgotten as quickly as your own
toothless insults are absorbed into the nothingness of cyberspace.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:04:07 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

However, unlike me, you do not have spare time to burn. You
are a working stiff and you have limited spare time. Yet,
you choose to use up that time by posting steadily here on
RAO.

Actually, I DO have spare time to burn. That's what spare time is for
- to burn in whatever fashion that I choose. In fact, that's partly
what work is for - to allow me to HAVE spare time.

I say that it is time for you to get a life, Dave. Heck,
turn of the computer and go listen to that audio system of
yours.

Funny thing is, I can do both things at once. In fact, sometimes it's
doing the Arnold-approved thing of using my computer AS an audio
system, since it's one of the four audio systems that I have. In point
of fact, I'm listening to my main system right now as I type, the
recording being a recording of the Finn Bros show that I attended last
Friday night.

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:04:07 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

PS: Regarding me "losing," to you or anybody else: well I
have one set of speakers ready to go back to a manufacturer
(after reviewing them) with two more sets, from two more
manufacturers, being readied for shipment to me to review. A
subwoofer is coming, too. I may even review an amp.

Now, normally, I avoid reviewing amps ("Amps is amps,"
remember?), but this new one has some nifty "flexibility"
features that make reviewing it a worthwhile project.

And of course I recently reviewed a high-end amp with some
outstanding measurable performance attributes, and that
review will be showing up in The Sensible Sound pretty soon.
(My review will be accompanied by an engineering analysis
written by, guess what, an engineer, plus there will also be
accompanying it a subjective review - by a genuine
subjectivist.) So will a review of a DVD (DVD-A/SACD) player
that I just finished evaluating, plus reviews by me of a
number of SACD recordings.

I plan on getting lots of toys to review and play with in
the future.

Eat your heart out, Dave.

Why on earth would I eat my heart out? My interest in hi-fi isn't a
short term loan of gear that I have for a short time to hook up and
unhook to evaluate and then have to send back. I'm more interested in
listening to music.

However, I'll say that there's something to be said for receiving
software to keep. I've been there and done that. I probably got a
couple of thousand albums during my radio career (plus several hundred
free tickets and backstage passes to all sorts of shows).

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed. Who are YOU seeing live
next week?

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:04:55 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:44:44 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

not super fast, but still fast enough to show that you are
glued to your keyboard.

Well, you beat me by 12 minutes.

Again, I have spare time to burn. You do not.

Sure I do.

You should go get a REAL job, Dave.

I have one. One that pays me far more than you ever made as a library
clerk.

BTW, did you feel this way when you used to post from your job back in
the day?

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:14:50 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:44:44 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

In any case, being retired I have lots of free
time. Being a worker, you do not. There are better things to
do with the small amount of free time you have than posting
lingo here on RAO.

Well,, it's been over 40 hours since I've been at work.

See my other thread comments about the need for you to go
get a real job with real workable benefits. Otherwise, you
will still be waiting tables when you are 75.

Frankly, I
don't need you to tell me what better things I have to do than
whatever it is that I'm doing at the time that I'm doing it. I think
I'm a better judge than you are.

The future is closing in, Dave. You have to get away from
what is essentially a service job and get a real job, with a
pension arrangement for the future, and then also sock some
some money away in high-yield securities for future use.

Dave, waiting tables is a dead-end job. You need to get a
real job, so you are still not, as I said above, waiting
tables when you are 75 years old.

BTW, when was the last time you saw live music?

Last night. My wife sings in the shower.

What were you doing peeking at your wife in the shower? Did she know
that you were looking?

Dave, yours is an interesting comment. A guy like you, who
can only happily and satisfactorily judge audio products
while looking at them during sighted comparisons, has no
concept of not needing to look while listening.

Mine was last Friday
night when I saw the Finn Bros. play at the Mercy Lounge (a great show
from some artists that you've probably even reviewed at some point,
even if you don'tknow who they are).

Never heard of them. Never have reviewed them, either.

Shame that you've never reviewed a Crowded House album. I suspect that
you'd like them (for "rock music" that is). singing "Hey now, hey
now, don't dreeeeeam it's over..."

Anybody who uses rock music for reviewing audio products is
a dunderhead. OK, I have used them for spot checking during
speaker reviews, but for the serious stuff I use serious
music.

So you haven't reviewed rock albums just to review them? I thought you
did just that with some book you had written.

You should check out some Crowded House material. There's some really
nice music there; music that even YOU could enjoy, since it's tuneful
and interesting stuff. I'm not surprised that you aren't familiar with
them though, as your rock experience seems limited to The Eagles.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
: dave weil wrote:
:
: On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 14:44:44 -0500, Howard Ferstler
: wrote:
:
: Not always. But it does mean that I'm on the internet doing stuff
: sometimes, and this includes checking the newsgroups. what's YER
: excuse?
:
: Lots of free time. The thing is, you do not have lots of
: free time, Dave.
:
: Sure I do. I only have to work about 9 hours today. The rest is my
: own.
:
: Gee, Dave. I worked zero hours today, not counting taking
: out the trash, of course.
:
: I hope this job of yours has a pension arrangement or that
: you are packing some money away in some high-yield
: securities of some kind. Remember, Dave, once old age hits
: Social Security is not going to be enough to live on,
: particularly if high-end-audio tastes are involved.
:
: I prepared, and therefore for me, Social Security will
: deliver some nice pin money to play with.
:
: Howard Ferstler

Err, Howard, would this be one of your head to head audio discussions ?
....just checking,
Rudy

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
: Ruud Broens wrote:

: : Every time you and your buddies go out onto the internet to
: : dig up dirt on Ferstler you are simply showing that Ferstler
: : has pulled your collective chains and the pulling is causing
: : you psychological grief.
: :
:
: nahh, we're here for fun - and you supply it, lot;Sz ;-)
: thanks for clowning and putting in _all that time_,
:
: Rudy
:
: : Howard Ferstler
:
: Being retired, I have time to spare, Rudy. I hope you do,
: too, because if you are a working man and spend a huge
: amount of time here when you, like other working men, do not
: have all that much time to spare, you are as goofy as the
: rest of these nitwits.
:
: One would think that REAL audio enthusiasts would be
: listening to their audio rigs during those few spare hours
: that laboring people have away from the job.
:
: You ARE away from your job, I hope, and not wasting your
: boss's time and money by playing at that computer at your
: desk.
:
: Howard Ferstler

i know it's a difficult-to-grasp concept for ya, Howard, but some
of us don't _have_ bosses :-)
Rudy
independant

"dave weil" wrote in message
...

However, I'll say that there's something to be said for receiving
software to keep. I've been there and done that. I probably got a
couple of thousand albums during my radio career (plus several hundred
free tickets and backstage passes to all sorts of shows).

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed. Who are YOU seeing live
next week?

Wifey, in the upstairs shower.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

dave weil wrote:

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed.

Who? Is this supposed to be a big deal and something an
adult would look forward to?

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:04:55 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

You should go get a REAL job, Dave.

I have one. One that pays me far more than you ever made as a library
clerk.

But, Dave, given the nature of this job of yours you will
still be at it when you are 75 years old.

BTW, did you feel this way when you used to post from your job back in
the day?

You obviously do not know much about the kind of job I had.

Howard Ferstler

Ruud Broens wrote:

Err, Howard, would this be one of your head to head audio discussions ?
...just checking,
Rudy

Rudy, with some of these people I have to meet them on their
own terms. If I discuss audio they either work to revert to
their usual style (insult swapping) with their responses or
else they do not respond at all.

Besides, I just completed four rather lengthy product and
recording review articles for future publication in both The
Sensible Sound and The Audiophile Voice, and edited three
others for two engineers who were doing similar work. One
can only write about pure audio only so much, Rudy. Insult
swapping on RAO is entertainment for me, like watching
tractor-pull competition on TV probably is for you.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:14:50 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Anybody who uses rock music for reviewing audio products is
a dunderhead. OK, I have used them for spot checking during
speaker reviews, but for the serious stuff I use serious
music.

So you haven't reviewed rock albums just to review them? I thought you
did just that with some book you had written.

Yes, both my High Definition Compact Disc Recordings
(McFarland, 1994) and The Digital Audio Music List (A-R
Editions, 1999) books reviewed both classical and pop-music
recordings. Most of the latter were borrowed from the
pop-music collection at the university library, although I
also borrowed some from a guy who had a huge collection of
his own. My wife also has a number of pop releases. The
approach to reviewing the pop material (at least the rock
stuff that had plenty of electronics involved) was somewhat
different from that which I used with the classical stuff.

While classical recordings (including baroque, romantic,
impressionistic, modern, etc.) usually strive to put the
listener into a "you are there" simulation of a live
performance, most rock music appears to have as the goal an
"end in itself" situation, where the recording makes no
attempt to put the listener into a live-music simulation.
With some of the newer SACD and DVD-A surround releases,
this end-in-itself philosophy by the performers and
recording engineers appears to be even more emphatic.

You should check out some Crowded House material. There's some really
nice music there; music that even YOU could enjoy, since it's tuneful
and interesting stuff. I'm not surprised that you aren't familiar with
them though, as your rock experience seems limited to The Eagles.

I also like James Taylor, Dire Straits, and Paul Simon, as
well as a few other talents in the early modern rock world.

Howard Ferstler

Ruud Broens wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...

: Being retired, I have time to spare, Rudy. I hope you do,
: too, because if you are a working man and spend a huge
: amount of time here when you, like other working men, do not
: have all that much time to spare, you are as goofy as the
: rest of these nitwits.
:
: One would think that REAL audio enthusiasts would be
: listening to their audio rigs during those few spare hours
: that laboring people have away from the job.
:
: You ARE away from your job, I hope, and not wasting your
: boss's time and money by playing at that computer at your
: desk.

i know it's a difficult-to-grasp concept for ya, Howard, but some
of us don't _have_ bosses :-)
Rudy
independant

A likely story.

Howard Ferstler

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:12:10 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed.

Who? Is this supposed to be a big deal and something an
adult would look forward to?

Not every adult. Some people don't care for his work, just as some
people don't care for Telemann. I'm sure as much as I think that you'd
like Crowded House, you probably wouldn't appreciate Mr. Costello for
the most part. But you haven't reviewed his recent classical album, Il
Sogno, conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas yet? Oh wait, you don't like
much classical written past 1795.

But it *is* live music in what is arguably one of America's top 5
auditorims in terms of acoustics. The question is, when was the last
time you attended a live music concert and when do you plan to see
another? Now that you have TWO reliable cars, instead of one reliable
car and one oil-burning poorly handling relic, you should be able to
manage.

In fact, here's a challenge - how many shows have you attended in the
past 10 years?

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:13:41 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:04:55 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

You should go get a REAL job, Dave.

I have one. One that pays me far more than you ever made as a library
clerk.

But, Dave, given the nature of this job of yours you will
still be at it when you are 75 years old.

Yeah, but I won't feel that the highlight of my day is the feeding of
my cat.

BTW, did you feel this way when you used to post from your job back in
the day?

You obviously do not know much about the kind of job I had.

What does THAT have to do with posting on RAO while working for your
boss? What value did that add to your job?

Brother Horace the Superlatively Diminutive said:

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed.

Who? Is this supposed to be a big deal and something an
adult would look forward to?

This is a surprising response from you, Clerkie. I'd have thought you would
show great appreciation for anybody who lingers past his prime.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:27:13 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Thu, 03 Mar 2005 21:14:50 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Anybody who uses rock music for reviewing audio products is
a dunderhead. OK, I have used them for spot checking during
speaker reviews, but for the serious stuff I use serious
music.

So you haven't reviewed rock albums just to review them? I thought you
did just that with some book you had written.

Yes, both my High Definition Compact Disc Recordings
(McFarland, 1994) and The Digital Audio Music List (A-R
Editions, 1999) books reviewed both classical and pop-music
recordings. Most of the latter were borrowed from the
pop-music collection at the university library, although I
also borrowed some from a guy who had a huge collection of
his own. My wife also has a number of pop releases. The
approach to reviewing the pop material (at least the rock
stuff that had plenty of electronics involved) was somewhat
different from that which I used with the classical stuff.

So? What does this have to do anything?

While classical recordings (including baroque, romantic,
impressionistic, modern, etc.) usually strive to put the
listener into a "you are there" simulation of a live
performance, most rock music appears to have as the goal an
"end in itself" situation, where the recording makes no
attempt to put the listener into a live-music simulation.

This just shows how inadequate you are when it comes to writing about
rock music. Maybe you *were* smart to stay away from it for the most
part.

There are PLENTY of rock recordings that attempt to put the listener
into a live-music simulation. Even your vaunted Dire Straits had a
pretty conventional presentation, one which was close to what you
might expect to hear at a live concert.

But sure, there are plenty of situations where groups add a lot of
stuff into the mix for artistic intents. Sometimes Crowded House did
this. Are you saying that you never like stuff like that? Or that it
isn't a good thing?

I'm trying to get you to expand your horizons, Howard. Of course, you
can consider Crowded House to be like Quad and be afraid to check them
out. It's not like Crowded House is waaaay out there, you know.

With some of the newer SACD and DVD-A surround releases,
this end-in-itself philosophy by the performers and
recording engineers appears to be even more emphatic.

So?

You should check out some Crowded House material. There's some really
nice music there; music that even YOU could enjoy, since it's tuneful
and interesting stuff. I'm not surprised that you aren't familiar with
them though, as your rock experience seems limited to The Eagles.

I also like James Taylor, Dire Straits, and Paul Simon, as
well as a few other talents in the early modern rock world.

As I said...

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:45:00 -0500, George M. Middius
wrote:



Brother Horace the Superlatively Diminutive said:

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed.

Who? Is this supposed to be a big deal and something an
adult would look forward to?

This is a surprising response from you, Clerkie. I'd have thought you would
show great appreciation for anybody who lingers past his prime.

OUCH!

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
: Ruud Broens wrote:
:
: Err, Howard, would this be one of your head to head audio discussions ?
: ...just checking,
: Rudy
:
: Rudy, with some of these people I have to meet them on their
: own terms. If I discuss audio they either work to revert to
: their usual style (insult swapping) with their responses or
: else they do not respond at all.
:
: Besides, I just completed four rather lengthy product and
: recording review articles for future publication in both The
: Sensible Sound and The Audiophile Voice, and edited three
: others for two engineers who were doing similar work. One
: can only write about pure audio only so much, Rudy. Insult
: swapping on RAO is entertainment for me, like watching
: tractor-pull competition on TV probably is for you.
:
: Howard Ferstler

Naah, Mythbusters on Discovery is more like it.
Rudy

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:12:10 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

BTW, I'll be seeing Elvis Costello on Wed.

Who? Is this supposed to be a big deal and something an
adult would look forward to?

Not every adult. Some people don't care for his work, just as some
people don't care for Telemann.

Small-minded individuals, of course. Interesting that you
compare this guy to Telemann.

I'm sure as much as I think that you'd
like Crowded House, you probably wouldn't appreciate Mr. Costello for
the most part. But you haven't reviewed his recent classical album, Il
Sogno, conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas yet? Oh wait, you don't like
much classical written past 1795.

I like some of that more modern stuff. Mozart and Haydn
managed to produce some very nice music.

But it *is* live music in what is arguably one of America's top 5
auditorims in terms of acoustics. The question is, when was the last
time you attended a live music concert and when do you plan to see
another? Now that you have TWO reliable cars, instead of one reliable
car and one oil-burning poorly handling relic, you should be able to
manage.

The local symphony is shopping around for a new conductor.
Should make for a more interesting series of performances in
the future. Maybe I will attend some of them.

In fact, here's a challenge - how many shows have you attended in the
past 10 years?

Once or twice. Dave, I know people who go to concerts all
the time and have the most ridiculous views regarding
speaker sound and speaker/room behavior that one can
imagine. Some pop-music recording engineers and pop-music
performers are just as much out in left field when it comes
to what sounds good and what does not. Some engineers and
performers also have preposterous ideas about things like CD
sound and SACD and DVD-A sound. Dave, you forget just how
important it is to have an intelligent approach to judging
recorded music, no matter the medium.

Incidentally, Dave, how many of my recording reviews have
you read? I ask, because I am curious about your opinion of
my reviewing technique, given my cretin-like approach to
music reviewing. Do I miss or hit the mark with those
recording reviews?

Also, I recently sent you some drafts of speaker reviews
that showed up recently in The Sensible Sound. I am curious
about how you feel about my approach regarding those
reviews. Do they cut it, or do they also miss the mark?

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:13:41 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

BTW, did you feel this way when you used to post from your job back in
the day?

You obviously do not know much about the kind of job I had.

What does THAT have to do with posting on RAO while working for your
boss? What value did that add to your job?

Actually, Dave, I have been retired for more than six years.
For five of those I worked for the library as an
augmentation worker whom they were glad as hell to have on
hand. (They recently had lost their two best acquisitions
experts.) Basically, I ordered books, scores, recordings,
and just about everything else that was of an academic
nature for all of those years, and for the last two before I
retired full time I was just about all they had standing
between getting what they needed and chaos. During one
project series I had to order three-dozen medieval musical
manuscripts from libraries all over Europe.

Before I left, I spent most of my time writing a 90-page,
in-house guide dealing with the ins and outs of purchasing
academic materials for a university library. In between work
sessions, I duked it out with some of the lunatics on RAO.
It was the only way I could keep from dozing off.

Dave, I think you do not understand just how dynamic a
character I am. Remember, during this series of give and
take RAO posts over the last two months I also wrote three
product-review articles, one record-review article, and
edited three other articles written by two different
engineers. All this, and I still managed to route, drill,
sand, paint, and install nine solid-wood doors at my house
to replace the old hollow-core jobs.

Yep, Dave, my fingers are like lightening bolts on the
keyboard (can easily cruise along at 80 wpm with original
material), and for a guy who is closing in on 62 years of
age, I completely outclass you audio-tweako comics when it
comes to generating copy about audio on any kind of level
whatsoever, be it serious article work or slapping down
blowhards and nitpickers here on RAO.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:27:13 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

So you haven't reviewed rock albums just to review them? I thought you
did just that with some book you had written.

Yes, both my High Definition Compact Disc Recordings
(McFarland, 1994) and The Digital Audio Music List (A-R
Editions, 1999) books reviewed both classical and pop-music
recordings. Most of the latter were borrowed from the
pop-music collection at the university library, although I
also borrowed some from a guy who had a huge collection of
his own. My wife also has a number of pop releases. The
approach to reviewing the pop material (at least the rock
stuff that had plenty of electronics involved) was somewhat
different from that which I used with the classical stuff.

So? What does this have to do anything?

Well, you made a comment and I responded to it. Besides, I
know you will file my thoughts away so that you can pull
them up in a few months (or years) as part of one of your
typically nitpicking response posts.

While classical recordings (including baroque, romantic,
impressionistic, modern, etc.) usually strive to put the
listener into a "you are there" simulation of a live
performance, most rock music appears to have as the goal an
"end in itself" situation, where the recording makes no
attempt to put the listener into a live-music simulation.

This just shows how inadequate you are when it comes to writing about
rock music. Maybe you *were* smart to stay away from it for the most
part.

OK, Dave, you tell me just how many rock recordings are
engineered to sound like a live-music performance? Heck,
they are mostly made in studios, with pan potting and dialed
in performances that in no way whatsoever resemble what one
would hear at a live presentation. What's more, even the
"live performances" by those guys in auditoriums and
stadiums do not resemble live performances of the same kind
that classical and acoustic-jazz performances are live! The
entire enterprise is often aesthetically preposterous.

There are PLENTY of rock recordings that attempt to put the listener
into a live-music simulation.

As it exists in a situation where electronic amplification
is pumping sound out from all over the place? Dave, anyone
who thinks that rock music is able to definitively generate
situations that allow one to properly evaluate speaker
systems or audio systems in general is deluded. For the most
part, soundstaging and ambiance reproduction with rock music
is a joke.

Even your vaunted Dire Straits had a
pretty conventional presentation, one which was close to what you
might expect to hear at a live concert.

Yes, a live "electronic" concert. There is no way to use
something like that as a reference for evaluating audio
gear. Yes, I have in the past included some rock recordings
in my product reviews (although I have not done it for some
time now), but only as ancillary items after I review with
material that is able to highlight meaningful performance
qualities.

But sure, there are plenty of situations where groups add a lot of
stuff into the mix for artistic intents. Sometimes Crowded House did
this.

Is that a group? Gee, Dave, you are just SO hip.

Are you saying that you never like stuff like that? Or that it
isn't a good thing?

If I get tanked up enough sometimes material like that can
be entertaining. Also, guests at my place sometimes want to
hear what rock music sounds like on my systems. I
accommodate them.

Actually, my wife really does like some rock music (oldies
but goodies she calls the stuff she listens to) and
sometimes I listen too - from the next room.

I'm trying to get you to expand your horizons, Howard.

Why not just suggest that I start using drugs or take up
pimping?

Of course, you
can consider Crowded House to be like Quad and be afraid to check them
out.

Trust me, I do sometimes switch my car radio from PBS to one
of the local kid-music stations to see what is going on. As
best I can tell, what I am hearing is the decline of
American civilization.

It's not like Crowded House is waaaay out there, you know.

Not to someone with the intellect, maturity, and aesthetic
sensibility of a 15 year old, I suppose.

With some of the newer SACD and DVD-A surround releases,
this end-in-itself philosophy by the performers and
recording engineers appears to be even more emphatic.

So?

How many DVD-A and SACD recordings have you listened to,
Dave? The material genuinely amplifies my contention about
rock music and the way the engineers and performers want it
to sound.

Howard Ferstler

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:14:05 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

In fact, here's a challenge - how many shows have you attended in the
past 10 years?

Once or twice.

Well then, I don't think that you should hold yourself up as someone
qualified to comment on how well home hi-fis do when reproducing live
music, since you obviously have only a very limited experience with
the latter.

I, on the other hand, have attended that number of live events in the
past 7 days alone. In fact, I just saw a set of about 6 songs from
Jimbo Mathus at my local record store about 2 hours ago.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:14:05 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Incidentally, Dave, how many of my recording reviews have
you read? I ask, because I am curious about your opinion of
my reviewing technique, given my cretin-like approach to
music reviewing. Do I miss or hit the mark with those
recording reviews?

I don't think I've read any. I have only commented on the rather
bizarre things that you've written here about your approach to music
and music reproduction. sometimes, I agree with the things you write
and I've said so when I've agreed.

Also, I recently sent you some drafts of speaker reviews
that showed up recently in The Sensible Sound. I am curious
about how you feel about my approach regarding those
reviews. Do they cut it, or do they also miss the mark?

I didn'tread them. As soon as you dismissed the idea of seeking out
other forms of reproduction like Quad speakers, I realized that I
could take the same approach to the writing that you submitted to me.

I HAVE read a few of your equipment reviews and they're not
particularly interesting to me. Partly it's because I recognize that
in some cases, you talk about things as if you know them but really
don't (i.e. live music). Plus, your frame of reference is too narrow
to apply to the things that *I* find important in stereo reproduction.
Plus, you're just too judgmental when it comes to how others perceive
music. I'm not trying to be mean or anything - just honest.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:24:26 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Dave, I think you do not understand just how dynamic a
character I am.

I guess not. I need to reevaluate the dynamism of cat feeding and
melon squeezing.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:39:58 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Even your vaunted Dire Straits had a
pretty conventional presentation, one which was close to what you
might expect to hear at a live concert.

Yes, a live "electronic" concert. There is no way to use
something like that as a reference for evaluating audio
gear.

Sure it is. Dire Straits didn't do purely acoustic-based shows, you
know. But you'd have no way of knowing what a group like that sounded
like live.

A hi-fi that makes Dire Straits sound like The English Concert would
be virtually uselss, wouldn't you say?

Of course, it's a chicken or egg sort of question. Are the live shows
supposed to represent the recorded sound or vice versa? Actually,
sometimes it's both, at least when it comes to modern popular music.

And sometimes, the two are completely separate. Depends on the group.
Sometimes the live show doesn't attempt to reproduce the album (and
vice versa). You would know this if you had any passing familiarity
with popular music.

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:39:58 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Of course, you
can consider Crowded House to be like Quad and be afraid to check them
out.

Trust me, I do sometimes switch my car radio from PBS to one
of the local kid-music stations to see what is going on. As
best I can tell, what I am hearing is the decline of
American civilization.

Well, yes. The state of modern radio is pretty abysmal. You won't get
a good idea of the state of popular music by listening to the radio.
Sorry. That would be like me trying to judge the state of the modern
library by rating the local Goodwill store. They both have books on a
shelf, and, in a sense, the Goodwill IS a library because it's a
collection of books, right?

dave weil wrote:

In fact, here's a challenge - how many shows have you attended in the
past 10 years?

Once or twice.

Well then, I don't think that you should hold yourself up as someone
qualified to comment on how well home hi-fis do when reproducing live
music, since you obviously have only a very limited experience with
the latter.

I, on the other hand, have attended that number of live events in the
past 7 days alone. In fact, I just saw a set of about 6 songs from
Jimbo Mathus at my local record store about 2 hours ago.

Dave, some guys could go to concerts every day and still not
realize just how screwed up their audio systems might be.
They have not a clue what to listen for.

Other, more intelligent people would learn more from
attending one concert than those other guys would if they
lived at the concert hall.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:14:05 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Incidentally, Dave, how many of my recording reviews have
you read? I ask, because I am curious about your opinion of
my reviewing technique, given my cretin-like approach to
music reviewing. Do I miss or hit the mark with those
recording reviews?

I don't think I've read any. I have only commented on the rather
bizarre things that you've written here about your approach to music
and music reproduction. sometimes, I agree with the things you write
and I've said so when I've agreed.

In other words, your critiques of my record-reviewing
talents are about as reliable as your critiques of audio
gear.

Also, I recently sent you some drafts of speaker reviews
that showed up recently in The Sensible Sound. I am curious
about how you feel about my approach regarding those
reviews. Do they cut it, or do they also miss the mark?

I didn'tread them. As soon as you dismissed the idea of seeking out
other forms of reproduction like Quad speakers,

I have never dismissed this. I did note that the price range
of such speakers is a bit above what I care to fool with. I
will point out that, in theory at least, what Quad appears
to do when reproducing sound seems to not be all that
remarkable. Certainly, what the company was able to do did
not impress Floyd Toole when he was running the
subjective/objective speaker-analysis program at the
Canadian NRC.

I realized that I
could take the same approach to the writing that you submitted to me.

I find this interesting. You criticize me regularly, and yet
when I supply you with some of my published materials you
dump them and continue to speculate about what I have
published.

I HAVE read a few of your equipment reviews and they're not
particularly interesting to me.

Which ones? Remember, while I prefer to review speakers and
surround processors, I have reviewed other components.

Partly it's because I recognize that
in some cases, you talk about things as if you know them but really
don't (i.e. live music). Plus, your frame of reference is too narrow
to apply to the things that *I* find important in stereo reproduction.

Like the ability of an audio system to pump out gobs of
rock-music sound? Dave, I will hazard a guess and say that
most of your live-music listening involves electronic
amplification and/or seats in poor listening locations. It
is also likely that some of the time you are inebriated
enough to not be able to judge much of anything.

Also, if you listen as critically live as you do when it
comes to listening to audio gear (remember what you have
said about the so-called sound of premium audio cables in
the past), your live-music experiences do not add up to much
if we are talking about gaining knowledge of what does and
does not matter with the reproduction of sound and the
simulation of live-music space.

Plus, you're just too judgmental when it comes to how others perceive
music. I'm not trying to be mean or anything - just honest.

Most of my speaker reviews cut the manufacturers a whole lot
of slack. I was hoping you would recognize that, but I see
now that you are more interested in taking unsubstantiated
digs at me and my published writings (that you have not
read) than you are in understanding what I am up to.

As for others perceiving music, my take on this is that most
of those others listen to music that is not really music at
all.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:39:58 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Even your vaunted Dire Straits had a
pretty conventional presentation, one which was close to what you
might expect to hear at a live concert.

Yes, a live "electronic" concert. There is no way to use
something like that as a reference for evaluating audio
gear.

Sure it is. Dire Straits didn't do purely acoustic-based shows, you
know. But you'd have no way of knowing what a group like that sounded
like live.

A hi-fi that makes Dire Straits sound like The English Concert would
be virtually uselss, wouldn't you say?

Well, for once we are in agreement.

Of course, it's a chicken or egg sort of question. Are the live shows
supposed to represent the recorded sound or vice versa? Actually,
sometimes it's both, at least when it comes to modern popular music.

There is no way I would trust a rock-music recording to give
me meaningful data on speaker soundstaging, imaging, focus,
depth, or even spectral balance.

And sometimes, the two are completely separate. Depends on the group.
Sometimes the live show doesn't attempt to reproduce the album (and
vice versa). You would know this if you had any passing familiarity
with popular music.

I do not particularly think that having a familiarity with
popular music is all that useful - for reviewing audio gear
or much of anything else.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:39:58 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Of course, you
can consider Crowded House to be like Quad and be afraid to check them
out.

Trust me, I do sometimes switch my car radio from PBS to one
of the local kid-music stations to see what is going on. As
best I can tell, what I am hearing is the decline of
American civilization.

Well, yes. The state of modern radio is pretty abysmal. You won't get
a good idea of the state of popular music by listening to the radio.

Well, what the heck are they playing? I did tune in to the
Grammy awards for a while (I assume most of the participants
are involved with pop music) and thought to myself "What
planet are these people from?"

Sorry. That would be like me trying to judge the state of the modern
library by rating the local Goodwill store. They both have books on a
shelf, and, in a sense, the Goodwill IS a library because it's a
collection of books, right?

I thought they sold used clothes and things like rebuilt
washing machines.

Howard Ferstler

dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:25:37 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Sorry. That would be like me trying to judge the state of the modern
library by rating the local Goodwill store. They both have books on a
shelf, and, in a sense, the Goodwill IS a library because it's a
collection of books, right?

I thought they sold used clothes and things like rebuilt
washing machines.

And tons of books. Maybe even yours.

The more sales, the better.

Howard Ferstler

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:25:37 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Sorry. That would be like me trying to judge the state of the modern
library by rating the local Goodwill store. They both have books on a
shelf, and, in a sense, the Goodwill IS a library because it's a
collection of books, right?

I thought they sold used clothes and things like rebuilt
washing machines.

And tons of books. Maybe even yours.

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

OK, Dave, you tell me just how many rock recordings are
engineered to sound like a live-music performance?

The Who Live at Leeds
Live at Kelvin Hall The Kinks
Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions
Simon and Garfunkel Concert in Central Park

There's four...

Stephen

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:14:26 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

OK, Dave, you tell me just how many rock recordings are
engineered to sound like a live-music performance?

The Who Live at Leeds
Live at Kelvin Hall The Kinks
Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions
Simon and Garfunkel Concert in Central Park

There's four...

Stephen

Well, in the context of the question, I'd say only the third one is
relevant.

I was referring to the normal presentation of many rock albums; a
presentation that mimics a theoretical on-stage set-up. You know,
drums in the back, guitars either right, left or center, bass center
left/right, lead vocal center or close to center, and background
vocals either left or right or paired with the lead vocal in the
center.

I'd argue that almost every Dire Straits album has this sort of
presentation. If you close your eyes, you could imagine them on stage.
I daresay that The Eagles have the same sort of presentation as well.

Now, the aformentioned Cotton Mather album (dudes from your own
Austin) doesn't attempt to mimic a live setup any more than Revolver
or Sgt. Pepper's did. And there's nothing wrong with that. Some of
Crowded House's songs have too much going on in the mix to say that
they mimic a live show as well. And those songs are some of the most
interesting songs. Guess what? I want my hi-fi to reproduce those
songs in an appropriate manner. For instance, even though I tout your
Quads all the time, if someone listened exclusively to hip-hop, I
wouldn't recommend them in a million years.

Howard has never been to a recent rock show, and may have NEVER been
to a rock show EVER, so he's basically talking out of his ass when it
comes to how a system can mimic a live event. Of course, he's only
been to 2 classical shows in the last decade, so his opinions on ANY
kind of live show are very suspect at best.

Howard Ferstler said:

Of course, it's a chicken or egg sort of question. Are the live shows
supposed to represent the recorded sound or vice versa? Actually,
sometimes it's both, at least when it comes to modern popular music.

There is no way I would trust a rock-music recording to give
me meaningful data on speaker soundstaging, imaging, focus,
depth, or even spectral balance.


While I agree with you here, it's an established fact that there are
people out there who use their audio system to listen to rock music
exclusively.
A suitable system for those listeners could well deviate from a system
that's optimalized for classical music.


And sometimes, the two are completely separate. Depends on the group.
Sometimes the live show doesn't attempt to reproduce the album (and
vice versa). You would know this if you had any passing familiarity
with popular music.

I do not particularly think that having a familiarity with
popular music is all that useful - for reviewing audio gear
or much of anything else.


What would you recommend to someone asking for a system that will be
used for rock music only?
Things like imaging, focusing and spectral balance could be utterly
meaningless to such a person.......

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

In article ,
dave weil wrote:

On Sun, 06 Mar 2005 13:14:26 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:

In article ,
Howard Ferstler wrote:

OK, Dave, you tell me just how many rock recordings are
engineered to sound like a live-music performance?

The Who Live at Leeds
Live at Kelvin Hall The Kinks
Cowboy Junkies Trinity Sessions
Simon and Garfunkel Concert in Central Park

There's four...

Well, in the context of the question, I'd say only the third one is
relevant.

Maybe he'd like Lou Reed's binaural recordings. (Maybe not!) I suppose
one could quibble about the practice of post-performance rerecording,
but I don't think Howard was going there.

I was referring to the normal presentation of many rock albums; a
presentation that mimics a theoretical on-stage set-up. You know,
drums in the back, guitars either right, left or center, bass center
left/right, lead vocal center or close to center, and background
vocals either left or right or paired with the lead vocal in the
center.

But of course.

I'd argue that almost every Dire Straits album has this sort of
presentation. If you close your eyes, you could imagine them on stage.
I daresay that The Eagles have the same sort of presentation as well.

And many, many seventies rock albums. Free comes to mind.

Now, the aformentioned Cotton Mather album (dudes from your own
Austin) doesn't attempt to mimic a live setup any more than Revolver
or Sgt. Pepper's did. And there's nothing wrong with that. Some of
Crowded House's songs have too much going on in the mix to say that
they mimic a live show as well. And those songs are some of the most
interesting songs. Guess what? I want my hi-fi to reproduce those
songs in an appropriate manner. For instance, even though I tout your
Quads all the time, if someone listened exclusively to hip-hop, I
wouldn't recommend them in a million years.

Not without a one-note subwoofer.

Howard has never been to a recent rock show, and may have NEVER been
to a rock show EVER, so he's basically talking out of his ass when it
comes to how a system can mimic a live event. Of course, he's only
been to 2 classical shows in the last decade, so his opinions on ANY
kind of live show are very suspect at best.

While I'm sure he could find much to object to at a typical Austin club
show (excessive volume levels, clipping, PA horns, etc), another point
is that even rock has commonly recognized sound ideals such as the one
you described above. I read one description that claimed room size and
volume level at which the drums do not require amplification as an
ideal, which reminds me of another Terry Manning anecdote, this one
about Led Zeppelin: Bonham preferred the mics some distance from the
drum kit because he wanted to control his dynamics, not the engineer.

Stephen

Sander deWaal said:

What would you recommend to someone asking for a system that will be
used for rock music only?


This issue has been addressed before, at length, in several of Harold's
compendious compendiums of tedious tedium. Such individuals need to be locked
up in a university library with a pair of headphones an unlimited access to
The Right Sort Of Music. After a few months of ah, education ;-), these
individuals will have lost their desire to deviate from Ferstler-approved
genres of music. This re-education will considerably simplify the task of
supplying these individuals with audio systems. In fact, some of them will
want to become "music reviewers" for libraries, meaning they will subsist on
re-issued recordings of 200-year-old symphonies for the rest of their days.
And this is how it should be, according to the Book of Ferstlerianism.

Audio is a deadly serious business, note.

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
dave weil wrote:

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 22:25:37 -0500, Howard Ferstler
wrote:

Sorry. That would be like me trying to judge the state of the modern
library by rating the local Goodwill store. They both have books on a
shelf, and, in a sense, the Goodwill IS a library because it's a
collection of books, right?

I thought they sold used clothes and things like rebuilt
washing machines.

And tons of books. Maybe even yours.

The more sales, the better.


I recommend that you take
an introductory business course.
Hopefully you will be able to handle
most basic concepts.



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