"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:

I which case I shall consider the matter closed, Mr. Krueger. Given
your unwillingness to substantiate your claims, I request you to stop
complaining that I misrepresented your views on these matters.

I will stop complaining about that when you properly represent my views on
every matter that you represent my views.

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
JA is currently bragging about trashing a mid fi DVD player.

Not in any posting retrievable by Google, Mr. Krueger. Here's what
Google quotes me as saying on this subject:

-------------------------------------------------
"John Atkinson" wrote in
Message .com

Arny Krueger wrote in :
Atkinson can't bring himself to admit despite his alarmist
posturing, the better $39.95 DVD players can recover audio
signals from real-world CDs that are audibly indistinguishable
from the original signal used to produce the CD.
...
So much for the possibility of a fair sighted golden ear
audiophile test comparing a good $39.95 DVD player to one of
the $3995 behemoths that litter the pages of Stereophile.

You really do need to read Stereophile beforing venturing opinions
on its content, Mr. Krueger. We recently published just such a
comparison (though I suppose that as the DVD player cost $50, not
$39.95, you will argue that that is a different matter altogether).
:-)

Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison. In
actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison than
I had expected from its measured performance.

Whatever that means. You understand that this statement is meaningless,
right John?

Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
JA is currently bragging about trashing a mid fi DVD player.

Not in any posting retrievable by Google, Mr. Krueger.
snip of only JA message that mentioned a "mid-fi DVD player"
Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison.
In actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison
than I had expected from its measured performance.

Whatever that means.

It means, Mr. Krueger, that your statement that I am "bragging about
trashing a mid-fi DVD player" is wrong on all counts: I didn't "trash"
the cheap Toshiba player, neither did I brag about doing so. You are
very quick to accuse me of misrepresenting your views, yet you fail
to offer any substantiation whatsoever of my supposed misdeeds while
blatantly lying about what I have said or done.

You understand that this statement is meaningless, right John?

I am sure this is something you can address at the New York debate,
Mr. Krueger.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...

wrote:
Someone wrote
Let's kick a little Lyin' Limey butt.

If I'm not mistaken, John Atkinson is an American.

These days, yes Norm. I became a US citizen in August '03.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Welcome! We're glad to have you--at least I am. :-)

Norm

"Paul Dormer" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

I was considering my options. I've decided that if possible, I'll
travel light.

You're gonna drop the payload before you board?

Dormer, I knew you wanted to be there to get your mouth full.

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com

Arny Krueger wrote:
JA is currently bragging about trashing a mid fi DVD player.

Not in any posting retrievable by Google, Mr. Krueger.
snip of only JA message that mentioned a "mid-fi DVD player"
Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison.
In actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison
than I had expected from its measured performance.

Whatever that means.

It means, Mr. Krueger, that your statement that I am "bragging about
trashing a mid-fi DVD player" is wrong on all counts: I didn't "trash"
the cheap Toshiba player, neither did I brag about doing so.

Atkinson, you seem to be loathe to admit exactly what you did say about the
Toshiba player.

You are very quick to accuse me of misrepresenting your views, yet you
fail
to offer any substantiation whatsoever of my supposed misdeeds while
blatantly lying about what I have said or done.

Gee, I thought I was just giving my opinion of what you said, John.

You understand that this statement is meaningless, right John?

I am sure this is something you can address at the New York debate,
Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


Since you can't afford to enjoy it, you poison it so
that no one else can be able to enjoy it.

That is exactly what it seems that John Atkinson wants to do to good
mid-fi.

I've seen numerous positive reviews of good mid fi products in SP

Prove it with cites from their web site.


No, you know it, and I know it.
Examples
PSB, NHT some Adcom pieces.
even a Radio Shack cheapie, once.
inexpensive Grado cartridges



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


Since you can't afford to enjoy it, you poison it so
that no one else can be able to enjoy it.

That is exactly what it seems that John Atkinson wants to do to good
mid-fi.

I've seen numerous positive reviews of good mid fi products in SP

Prove it with cites from their web site.



No, you know it, and I know it.
Examples
PSB, NHT some Adcom pieces.
even a Radio Shack cheapie, once.
inexpensive Grado cartridges


Since you seems to know perfectly the revue, from you POV
what is Stereophile approximative ratio between mid and
high-end material ?

You're gonna drop the payload before you board?

You mean take a Dormer?

"George M. Middius" wrote in message
...


Scott said:

So what happens when Arny does not show up for the debate? He is
already planting a lawn full of excuses.

Good metaphor. :-) But something's missing to complete it. Hmm....


The manure?



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
I am sure this is something you can address at the New York
debate, Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

No, not at all, Mr. Krueger. Is there something that you now
take exception to? If so, then I am sure we can resolve the issue.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
I am sure this is something you can address at the New York
debate, Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

No, not at all, Mr. Krueger.

No new conditions?

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


Since you can't afford to enjoy it, you poison it so
that no one else can be able to enjoy it.

That is exactly what it seems that John Atkinson wants to do to
good mid-fi.

I've seen numerous positive reviews of good mid fi products in SP

Prove it with cites from their web site.


No, you know it, and I know it.

What I know about is a tiny dribble of reviews of mid-fi products.

Examples PSB, NHT some Adcom pieces.

That's not classic mid-fi - those are higher-end brands.

even a Radio Shack cheapie, once.

Once.

inexpensive Grado cartridges

Grado - another high end brand.

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Paul Dormer" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" emitted :

I was considering my options. I've decided that if possible, I'll
travel light.

You're gonna drop the payload before you board?

Dormer, I knew you wanted to be there to get your mouth full.


Not to worry, there's no shortage of Arny's brown stuff.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com


I am sure this is something you can address at the New York debate,
Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.



In that he expects to be refunded your expenses in case
you fail to show. But you are going to show, so it
is a moot point.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick a écrit :
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


Since you can't afford to enjoy it, you poison it so
that no one else can be able to enjoy it.

That is exactly what it seems that John Atkinson wants to do to good
mid-fi.

I've seen numerous positive reviews of good mid fi products in SP

Prove it with cites from their web site.



No, you know it, and I know it.
Examples
PSB, NHT some Adcom pieces.
even a Radio Shack cheapie, once.
inexpensive Grado cartridges


Since you seems to know perfectly the revue, from you POV what is
Stereophile approximative ratio between mid and high-end material ?

Ask Arny, he brought up the subject.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message


Since you can't afford to enjoy it, you poison it so
that no one else can be able to enjoy it.

That is exactly what it seems that John Atkinson wants to do to
good mid-fi.

I've seen numerous positive reviews of good mid fi products in SP

Prove it with cites from their web site.


No, you know it, and I know it.

What I know about is a tiny dribble of reviews of mid-fi products.

Examples PSB, NHT some Adcom pieces.

That's not classic mid-fi - those are higher-end brands.


Bull****, they said good things about their $200 per pair models



even a Radio Shack cheapie, once.

Once.

inexpensive Grado cartridges

Grado - another high end brand.


Bull****, they said good things about cheap $30 Grados.

Of course, I realize that $30 puts quite
a crimp in your audio budget.
You might want to consider selling off some
of your obsolete sound cards.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

John Atkinson wrote:

Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison. In
actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison than
I had expected from its measured performance.

John, I believe that you may have actually learned
something.

Howard Ferstler

randy wrote:

How do you respond to I think Pierce's comment in the high end
newsgroup, that it will be just a ****ing contest with no real
relevance to anything.

Boy oh boy, did Pierce hit the nail on the head.

Howard Ferstler

John Atkinson wrote:

randy wrote:
How do you respond to I think Pierce's comment in the high end
newsgroup, that it will be just a pis-ing contest with no real
relevance to anything.

For people to be discussing the outcome of this debate 10 weeks before
it is due to take place seems at best premature and at worst dumb, in
my opinion. But I do note that the majority of people posting to
r.a.h-e seem to feel Arny Krueger is being set up for a fall,
having to debate me in what they feel to be an unsuitable venue
in front of an unsuitable audience.

I'd like to reassure Mr. Krueger and his supporters on r.a.h-e that
the debate will be fair. And as it will be available as a live webcast,
as a subsequently streamed audio file, or both, everyone will be able
to judge for themselves.

John, what on earth are you going to say that would put the
DBT protocol in doubt? What audio engineer (real audio
engineer) would back you with that kind of position?

Rather than debate, why don't you two set up a carefully
proctored DBT session (get somebody like Eargle, Toole,
Olive, Keele, or Pierce for that matter, to do the
proctoring) and actually see what transpires. You ought to
be able to find somebody with good technical and integrity
credentials to do the job.

Arguing about issues that offer no proof that will satisfy
anybody is a waste of time. Work together to get some REAL
data that involves both of you together in the same
comparison session, and then do your debate. Bring along
some supporters who will also be involved in the comparison
series. Get everybody some first-person experience with the
issues.

PS: you might also consider publishing the results in your
magazine.

Howard Ferstler

John Atkinson wrote:

Tom wrote:

Could you stop laughing for a moment and elaborate a
little bit on your statement "necessary".

Sure. There are a number of reasons.

1) I am responsible for coming up with a program of
"fringe" events for our Shows, and I thought the debate
would add to the appeal of HE2005 for would-be showgoers.

But a debate would have more impact if you and Arny both
participated in an independently proctored series of DBT
comparisons prior to the face off. The best kind of
comparison would be one that matched one of your favorite
amps and set of super wires against some cheapo integrated
amp and set of lamp-cord wires that Arny selected. That way,
any results would be dramatic, one way or the other.

2) The subject of blind testing methodology is one that
deserves some public discussion. I hope I can make the
case that its relevance to audio reviewing has been
oversold by those who uncritically believe in it. If
not, then I will still have been able to present that
case.

It is obviously not relevant to editors who have a vested
interest in amps and wires having significant differences.
However, I am sure that you will agree (along with scads of
top-tier audio engineers) that in terms of absolute use, a
DBT protocol making use of precise level matching is
superior to sighted comparisons or single-presentation
evaluations. If this works for science, why cannot it work
for product evaluations, particularly when the reviewer has
a tendency to go overboard in his praise of amps and wires
that may not sound any better than cheaper stuff.

3) I welcome public discussion of how published reviews
are performed. My writers and I should be prepared to
defend what we write, I feel, which is why every show
I have helped organize in the US since the first one
in 1987 has had one or more "Ask the Editors"
sessions where members of the audience are encouraged
to "roast" the reviewers. I see this debate continuing
in that tradition, as I expect both Mr. Krueger and
myself to have our beliefs and experiences challenged
by the audience.

And I am sure that if you are challenged on the subject of
DBT comparisons you will have a canned response all ready to
go.

3) Mr. Krueger has repeatedly claimed that I am not
willing to debate my beliefs and activities in public.

But are you prepared to go further and actually do some DBT
comparisons "in public," so that your claims about the the
so-called sound of super amps and super wires can be
validated right there on the spot? This would certainly be
more dramatic than a debate. Hell, any good debater can win
a debate, even if he is wrong. You are making the debate the
issue, when the real issue is whether or not the DBT
protocol is an effective comparison tool when it comes to
amps and wires. The best way to do that is to set up a DBT
session at the show. Compare cheap stuff to favored
expensive stuff.

4) Mr. Krueger has repeatedly claimed that he is
willing to repeat the accusations of supposed fraud and
incompetence on my part that he makes on the newsgroups
to my face in a public debate. I thought it time for
him to make good on that claim.

Gee, basically, Pierce was correct. It is going to be a
****ing contest.

5) I believe that much of Mr. Krueger's criticisms of
high-end audio are not based on any experience of the
best of what the audio industry has to offer. By
inviting Arny Krueger to HE2005, I could make it
possible for him to take a listen, if he wished, to
some great-sounding systems.

Well, it would be interesting if he brought along an ABX
device and a cheap integrated amp and some lamp cord and set
up some DBT comparisons against that exotic gear. Maybe he
could get Nousaine to set up a comparison booth for that
sort of thing to take place.

I know, shows like that are bad places to do serious
comparing, because of all the noise and potential for
intimidation. However, you seem to think that HE2005 is an
adequately exacting environment to set up sighted
demonstrations that would wow Arny. Certainly, then, the
environment is exacting enough to let him and/or Nousaine
set up some DBT demonstrations. This would be way, way
superior to a debate.

Howard Ferstler

Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message
oups.com
I am sure this is something you can address at the New York
debate, Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

No, not at all, Mr. Krueger.

No new conditions?

Not that I am aware of, Mr. Krueger. What are you referring to?
Please note that my recent comment about what to do about the
expenses I would still incur should you fail to show up -- a
matter of several hundred dollars -- was certainly not intended
to be a "condition." My invitation to you was _un_conditional.

I don't see any point in arguing now what would would happen should
you fail to appear. You have given me your word that you will
debate me in New York at HE2005 and I am certainly prepared to trust
in your reasonableness at that time in the event that something
untoward might happen.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
John Atkinson wrote:

Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison. In
actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison than
I had expected from its measured performance.

John, I believe that you may have actually learned
something.


He knows not to make absurd assumptions
that all units in a particular class of products all
sound the same. When are you going to learn that?



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

John Atkinson wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message
oups.com
I am sure this is something you can address at the New York
debate, Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

No, not at all, Mr. Krueger.

No new conditions?

Not that I am aware of, Mr. Krueger. What are you referring to?
Please note that my recent comment about what to do about the
expenses I would still incur should you fail to show up -- a
matter of several hundred dollars -- was certainly not intended
to be a "condition." My invitation to you was _un_conditional.

I don't see any point in arguing now what would would happen should
you fail to appear. You have given me your word that you will
debate me in New York at HE2005 and I am certainly prepared to trust
in your reasonableness at that time in the event that something
untoward might happen.

For audio enthusiasts, this "debate" is going to be the butt
of jokes for a decade.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler wrote:
John Atkinson wrote:
I'd like to reassure Mr. Krueger and his supporters on r.a.h-e
that the debate will be fair. And as it will be available as a
live webcast, as a subsequently streamed audio file, or both,
everyone will be able to judge for themselves.

John, what on earth are you going to say that would put the
DBT protocol in doubt?

For the answer to that question, Mr. Ferstler, you need to
wait until the debate at the end of April.

What audio engineer (real audio engineer) would back you with
that kind of position?

As you have in the past defined "real audio engineer" as an
engineer who disagrees with me on this subject, Mr. Ferstler,
your question is semantically void.

Rather than debate, why don't you two set up a carefully
proctored DBT session...?

Mike McKelvy suggested a one-on-one debate and that is what I
proposed, that is what Mr. Krueger accepted, and that is what
I have promoted in my magazine, on my website, and on the
newsgroups and audio forums. The die is cast, Mr. Ferstler, but
thank you for offering your concern.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
John Atkinson wrote:

Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison. In
actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison than
I had expected from its measured performance.

John, I believe that you may have actually learned
something.


He knows not to make absurd assumptions
that all units in a particular class of products all
sound the same. When are you going to learn that?

When are John, and you, too, for that matter, going to get
involved in a properly proctored DBT, in order to see you,
he, and guys like you, back up your claims with real proofs?

Basically, all of you are running scared, either because of
potential money losses (tweak-audio journalism depends upon
simple-minded and even sometimes deluded magazine
subscribers to survive) or because your little religious
systems are failing.

Hey, you tweako freakos are now fighting a defensive action.
Must be tough.

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler wrote:
For audio enthusiasts, this "debate" is going to be the butt
of jokes for a decade.

Why?

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote:

"Howard Ferstler" wrote in message
...
John Atkinson wrote:

Note that I made no mention of the results of this comparison. In
actual fact, the $50 player did much better in this comparison than
I had expected from its measured performance.

John, I believe that you may have actually learned
something.


He knows not to make absurd assumptions
that all units in a particular class of products all
sound the same. When are you going to learn that?

When are John, and you, too, for that matter, going to get
involved in a properly proctored DBT, in order to see you,
he, and guys like you, back up your claims with real proofs?

Basically, all of you are running scared, either because of
potential money losses (tweak-audio journalism depends upon
simple-minded and even sometimes deluded magazine
subscribers to survive) or because your little religious
systems are failing.

Hey, you tweako freakos are now fighting a defensive action.
Must be tough.



Next time you come back here, bring your
wreckingball



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"George M. Middius" wrote in message


George offers his services:

Perhaps a little charity is in order here, John. The forthcoming
debate might benefit from a comedic opening act. I think you might be
able to recruit a Professional Audio Clown to amuse the crowd, and
I'm sure the additional expense would be nominal. Especially if you
throw in brunch passes at the hotel cafe. ;-)

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in message
ups.com
Arny Krueger wrote:
"John Atkinson" wrote in
message oups.com
I am sure this is something you can address at the New York
debate, Mr. Krueger.

I donno, it looks like you have changed the deal.

No, not at all, Mr. Krueger.

No new conditions?

Not that I am aware of, Mr. Krueger. What are you referring to?
Please note that my recent comment about what to do about the
expenses I would still incur should you fail to show up -- a
matter of several hundred dollars -- was certainly not intended
to be a "condition." My invitation to you was _un_conditional.

I don't see any point in arguing now what would would happen should
you fail to appear. You have given me your word that you will
debate me in New York at HE2005 and I am certainly prepared to trust
in your reasonableness at that time in the event that something
untoward might happen.

OK!

John Atkinson wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:
John Atkinson wrote:
I'd like to reassure Mr. Krueger and his supporters on r.a.h-e
that the debate will be fair. And as it will be available as a
live webcast, as a subsequently streamed audio file, or both,
everyone will be able to judge for themselves.

John, what on earth are you going to say that would put the
DBT protocol in doubt?

For the answer to that question, Mr. Ferstler, you need to
wait until the debate at the end of April.

But I am still going to assume that you are going to outline
objections to the DBT protocol. As an alternative, you will
favor sighted comparisons by certified golden ears who would
never let their knowledge of what is playing color their
perceptions.

And the moon is made out of green cheese.

What audio engineer (real audio engineer) would back you with
that kind of position?

As you have in the past defined "real audio engineer" as an
engineer who disagrees with me on this subject, Mr. Ferstler,
your question is semantically void.

Well, would guys like Toole, Olive, Eargle, Pierce, Keele,
Lip****z, Thiele, Small, and guys of their stature side with
you on the DBT issue? I find it simply incredible that
anyone with an ounce of technical sense could find fault
with the DBT protocol as a comparison tool, either for
scientific research or product evaluations. I mean, if any
reviewer says that he hear differences in a sighted
comparisons, he automatically should set up a DBT to see if
his observations hold.

Rather than debate, why don't you two set up a carefully
proctored DBT session...?

Mike McKelvy suggested a one-on-one debate and that is what I
proposed, that is what Mr. Krueger accepted, and that is what
I have promoted in my magazine, on my website, and on the
newsgroups and audio forums. The die is cast, Mr. Ferstler, but
thank you for offering your concern.

So, McKelvy is calling the shots?

Pierce was right. It will be a ****ing contest, with the
best showboater winning.

Do a public, properly proctored, level-matched DBT with
expensive vs cheap gear. That show would trump any debate.

Howard Ferstler

John Atkinson wrote:

Howard Ferstler wrote:
For audio enthusiasts, this "debate" is going to be the butt
of jokes for a decade.

Why?

Because it will settle nothing.

What will settle something is for you and Arny to both set
up a properly proctored DBT series for you two and your
buddies (his and yours) to participate in. The results could
then be debated intelligently. Hopefully, those results
would also be published in your magazine.

John, I have to be candid here. I simply do not believe that
you believe DBT comparisons are no good. I see other motives
that are related to your magazine needing to survive. It
cannot do that without the good will of the subscriber base,
and that base is made up of people who "believe."

I am sorry, but that is what I see.

Howard Ferstler

"George M. Middius" wrote:

John Atkinson said:

Mike McKelvy suggested a one-on-one debate and that is what I
proposed, that is what Mr. Krueger accepted, and that is what
I have promoted in my magazine, on my website, and on the
newsgroups and audio forums. The die is cast, Mr. Ferstler, but
thank you for offering your concern.

Perhaps a little charity is in order here, John. The forthcoming debate
might benefit from a comedic opening act. I think you might be able to
recruit a Professional Audio Clown to amuse the crowd,

Hey, George, you are hired!

Howard Ferstler

Howard Ferstler wrote:


snipped

John, I have to be candid here. I simply do not believe that
you believe DBT comparisons are no good. I see other motives
that are related to your magazine needing to survive. It
cannot do that without the good will of the subscriber base,
and that base is made up of people who "believe."



I think it is more a matter of having the "right" (naive, gullible)
readership than maintaining the "good will of the subscriber base". The
vast majority of the $tereopile revenue is generated from advertising.
Subscription revenue is incidental. That's why one can subscribe at
such a low rate. The magazine must be able to deliver the gullible to
the charlatans, like lambs to the slaughter. Having the "wrong" (i.e.,
educated, skeptical, discerning)readership, even in very large numbers,
will not be as effective in generating advertising revenue.




I am sorry, but that is what I see.


Hard to see it any other way.

Clyde Slick a écrit :

Since you seems to know perfectly the revue, from you POV what is
Stereophile approximative ratio between mid and high-end material ?


Ask Arny, he brought up the subject.

:-D

wrote in message
oups.com
Howard Ferstler wrote:

John, I have to be candid here. I simply do not believe that
you believe DBT comparisons are no good.

Given that www.pcabx.com enables people to do good DBTs in the privacy of
their home without anybody looking, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if
more than a few of their staff have been secretly *enjoying* the *dirty*
little pleasures that my DBT online site affords. ;-)

I see other motives
that are related to your magazine needing to survive.

There's no way I can see that Stereophile could clean up its act and
survive.

It cannot do that without the good will of the subscriber base,
and that base is made up of people who "believe."

I think it is more a matter of having the "right" (naive, gullible)
readership than maintaining the "good will of the subscriber base".

It's about where the money is. Let everybody who is surprised, raise their
hand! ;-)

The vast majority of the $tereopile revenue is generated from
advertising. Subscription revenue is incidental. That's why one can
subscribe at such a low rate.

Very obviously so.

The magazine must be able to deliver
the gullible to the charlatans, like lambs to the slaughter.

Hence JJ's comments about DBTs being not for consumers. If the system worked
the way it should, the developers and manufacturers of high end gear would
be doing the DBTs for themselves, and the snake oil would never see the
pages of Stereophile.

Having the "wrong" (i.e., educated, skeptical, discerning)readership,
even
in very large numbers, will not be as effective in generating
advertising revenue.

Agreed. I've got a more than a little experience with people who have bought
the high end line that the ragazines push, hook, rod and sinker. It's sad.

Howard Ferstler wrote:
a debate would have more impact if you and Arny both
participated in an independently proctored series of DBT
comparisons prior to the face off.

The neverending cry of the impotent, powerless audio critic.
"Put it to a DBT" and now "Put JA to a DBT." As someone who
has faked your published test results, Mr. Ferstler, and
copied someone else's text to claim it was your own, you
might wish to reflect on the propriety of you criticizing
a colleague.

AI am sure that if you are challenged on the subject of
DBT comparisons you will have a canned response all ready
to go.

Well duh, Mr. Ferstler. First we have Mr. Krueger complaining
that I did not present his case for him on my website, now
you complaining that I might prepare my presentation in
advance.

are you prepared to go further and actually do some DBT
comparisons "in public," so that your claims about the the
[sic] so-called sound of super amps and super wires can be
validated right there on the spot?

What becomes frustrating in discussing audio matters with you,
Mr. Ferstler, is that you pay no attention to what others say.
If you did, you would remember that you and I have already
discussed blind tests that I have performed at hi-fi shows,
specifically on speaker stand spikes, amplifiers, and
absoluter polarity. I have even published the results of
such public tests in the magazines I have edited, so yes, I
guess I am preapred to go "further."

But as to "validating" my claims, I note that neither you nor
any other of the skeptical community has been persuaded by
the results of my tests. :-)

And yet again, I should point out that someone who uses
almost exclusively sighted tests in his own reviewing stands
on shakey philosophical ground when he a) criticizes such tests
as used by others and b) demands those others use DBTs. As was
pointed out to you by Dr. John Feng and others, getting the results
you feel to be correct, Mr. Ferstler, does not validate your
methodology.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Howard Ferstler wrote:
it would be interesting if [Arny Krueger] brought along an ABX
device and a cheap integrated amp and some lamp cord and set
up some DBT comparisons against that exotic gear. Maybe he
could get Nousaine to set up a comparison booth for that
sort of thing to take place.

If Mr. Krueger or Tom Nousaine wish to do live demonstrations
at HE 2005, I would have no objection. But not in place of
the debate that has you so bothered.

you seem to think that HE2005 is an adequately exacting
environment to set up sighted demonstrations that would wow Arny.
Certainly, then, the environment is exacting enough to let him
and/or Nousaine set up some DBT demonstrations.

Performing a scientifically valid DBT, Mr. Ferstler, is rather
more demanding than setting up a system to play music. But as I
said, if they wish to do so, that would be fine by me. However,
it is relevant to point out that they would have to pay Primedia
the same rate for the room and facilities as any other show
exhibitor (though they would, of course, then be eligible for the
"best sound at the show" voting).

This would be way, way superior to a debate.

And still I ask why you are so against the idea of this debate, Mr.
Ferstler? Arny Krueger has long claimed that he is prepared to
discuss his audio philosophy with me one-on-one in public. If _he_
doesn't object to the idea, why are _you_ getting so flustered, to
the point that you are accusing me a) of preparing my presentation
in advance and b) claiming that no-one who listens to Mr. Krueger's
presentation will be persuaded by it? It appears, Mr. Ferstler, that,
despite your bluster, you don't actusally have the courage of your
convictions!

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

John Atkinson a écrit :

Performing a scientifically valid DBT, Mr. Ferstler, is rather
more demanding than setting up a system to play music.

Does this explain why you never perform these tests even
(especially ?) when the audio devices are little bit "esoteric".

George M. Middius said:

And so the die is cast, revoked, and shat upon.


Veni, vidi, faecii........

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "