Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #521   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Phil" wrote in message
news:NM52d.51822$MQ5.9644@attbi_s52...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Phil" wrote in message
news:LwL1d.49728$D%.24659@attbi_s51...

The 100% definitive call is not to claim forgery but that isn't a

forgery
and is on the consideration of handwriting analysis, which is not the

issue
thus relevant.



Arny!!!!!

Help me decipher this Krooglish, please.



I admit this isn't well written but let me explain. It would help a bit if
you hadn't edited the previous post so much.
Anyway MINe 109 quoted this: "One problem in making the case of this being

a
forgery is that the
credible experts cited will not make a 100% definitive call without

seeing
the original. "

This has to do with handwriting analysis. You can 100% definitively say

the
handwriting is authentic unless you have the original, however the

statement
is reverse. That you can't show forgery without the original. Realize the
requirement is to show your right, that the document is authentic.
Assumption of forgery can happen if you can't prove authentic of the
document thus the 100% isn't needed.
The second point was the post was about Boston Global article that MINe

109
used to support his point which proved invalid. This statement was a
immaterial to the issue.

Phil



I give up.

"You can 100% definitively say the
handwriting is authentic unless you have the original, however the statement
is reverse." ?????????????????

"Realize the requirement is to show your right, that the document is
authentic.
Assumption of forgery can happen if you can't prove authentic of the
document thus the 100% isn't needed." ???????????

I think somehow this lies in the semantics of the word forgery.
There are two possible forgeries. One, the document could be forged.
Two, the signature could be forged. It doesn't
have to be both, though in this case, it is.
However, note that it would be realisitically
inexplicable as to how one could have a forged document
with the real signature.






  #522   Report Post  
Jacob Kramer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not allowing the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from voting
other than convicted felons.


The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm


After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida. The VRA was enacted
in 1965 to enforce the 15th Amendment’s proscription against voting
discrimination. It is aimed at both subtle and overt state action that
has the effect of denying a citizen the right to vote because of his
or her race. Although the VRA originally focused on enfranchising
African Americans, the law has been amended several times to also
include American Indians, Asian Americans, Alaskan Natives, and people
of Spanish heritage. Additionally, the VRA includes a provision that
recognizes the need for multilingual assistance for non-English
speakers.

The VRA does not require intent to discriminate. Neither does it
require proof of a conspiracy. Violations of the VRA can be
established by evidence that the action or inaction of responsible
officials and other evidence constitute a “totality of the
circumstances” that denied citizens their right to vote. For example,
if there are differences in voting procedures and voting technologies
and the result of those differences is to advantage white voters and
disadvantage minority voters, then the laws, the procedures, and the
decisions that produced those results, viewed in the context of social
and historical factors, can be discriminatory, and a violation of the
VRA.

The report does not find that the highest officials of the state
conspired to disenfranchise voters. Moreover, even if it was
foreseeable that certain actions by officials led to voter
disenfranchisement, this alone does not mean that intentional
discrimination occurred. Instead, the report concludes that officials
ignored the mounting evidence of rising voter registration rates in
communities. The state’s highest officials responsible for ensuring
efficiency, uniformity, and fairness in the election failed to fulfill
their responsibilities and were subsequently unwilling to take
responsibility.

Disenfranchised Voters

Disenfranchised voters are individuals who are entitled to vote, want
to vote, or attempt to vote, but who are deprived from either voting
or having their votes counted. The most dramatic undercount in the
Florida election was the uncast ballots of countless eligible voters
who were wrongfully turned away from the polls. Statistical data,
reinforced by credible anecdotal evidence, point to the widespread
denial of voting rights. It is impossible to determine the extent of
the disenfranchisement or to provide an adequate remedy to the persons
whose voices were silenced by injustice, ineptitude, and inefficiency.
However, careful analysis and some reasonable projections illustrate
what happened in Florida.

The disenfranchisement of Florida’s voters fell most harshly on the
shoulders of black voters. The magnitude of the impact can be seen
from any of several perspectives:

*

Statewide, based upon county-level statistical estimates, black
voters were nearly 10 times more likely than nonblack voters to have
their ballots rejected.
*

Estimates indicate that approximately 14.4 percent of Florida’s
black voters cast ballots that were rejected. This compares with
approximately 1.6 percent of nonblack Florida voters who did not have
their presidential votes counted.
*

Statistical analysis shows that the disparity in ballot spoilage
rates—i.e., ballots cast but not counted—between black and nonblack
voters is not the result of education or literacy differences. This
conclusion is supported by Governor Jeb Bush’s Select Task Force on
Election Procedures, Standards and Technology, which found that error
rates stemming from uneducated, uninformed, or disinterested voters
account for less than 1 percent of the problems.
*

Approximately 11 percent of Florida voters were African
American; however, African Americans cast about 54 percent of the
180,000 spoiled ballots in Florida during the November 2000 election
based on estimates derived from county-level data. These statewide
estimates were corroborated by the results in several counties based
on actual precinct data.

Poor counties, particularly those with large minority populations,
were more likely to possess voting systems with higher spoilage rates
than the more affluent counties with significant white populations.
There is a high correlation between counties and precincts with a high
percentage of African American voters and the percentage of spoiled
ballots. For example:

*

Nine of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of African
American voters had spoilage rates above the Florida average.
*

Of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of white voters,
only two counties had spoilage rates above the state average.
*

Gadsden County, with the highest rate of spoiled ballots, also
had the highest percentage of African American voters.
*

Where precinct data were available, the data show that 83 of the
100 precincts with the highest numbers of spoiled ballots are
black-majority precincts.
The magnitude of the disenfranchisement, including the disparity
between black and nonblack voters, is supported by the testimony of
witnesses at the Commission’s hearings. These witnesses include local
election officials, poll workers, ordinary voters, and activists.
Among the sworn testimony:

*

One potential voter waited hours at the polls because of a
registration mix-up as poll workers attempted to call the office of
the supervisor of elections. The call never got through and the
individual was not allowed to vote. A former poll worker herself, she
testified that she never saw anything like it during her 18 years as a
poll worker.
*

A poll worker in Miami-Dade County with 15 years of experience
testified, “By far this was the worst election I have ever
experienced. After that election, I decided I didn’t want to work as a
clerk anymore.”
*

A poll worker in Palm Beach County testified that she had to use
her personal cell phone to attempt to contact the election
supervisor’s office. Despite trying all day, she only got through two
or three times over the course of 12 hours.
*

A Broward County poll worker testified that in past elections it
took about 10 minutes to get through to the elections supervisor.
During the course of the November 2000 election, she turned away
approximately 40–50 potential voters because she could not access the
supervisor of elections.
*

A Boynton Beach poll worker explained how his precinct workers
turned away about 30–50 potential voters because they could not get
through to the supervisor of elections. He was successful only once
during an eight-hour period.
*

Other persons testified about waiting in long lines only to be
ultimately denied their right to vote.

The Commission calls upon the attorney general of the United States to
immediately begin the litigation process to determine liability under
the VRA [Voting Rights Act] and appropriate remedies. The Commission
is a fact-finding body, authorized to investigate allegations of
voting discrimination, fraud, and other irregularities. However, it
does not adjudicate violations of the law, hold trials, or determine
civil or criminal liability. It is within the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Department of Justice and Florida law enforcement officials to seek
appropriate sanctions and remedies. In addition to calling on the
attorney general to initiate the litigation process on this issue, the
Commission requests this action on a number of other issues as well,
such as Florida’s handling of its voter roll purge and its failure to
accommodate voters with disabilities and limited English proficiency.

The Commission recommends that Florida retain knowledgeable experts to
undertake a formal study to ascertain the reason for the racial
disparities in vote rejection rates between white voters and persons
of color. Once this is completed, the state should adopt and publicize
procedures to eliminate this disparity. As a start, the state could
identify and promote the “best practices” of counties in Florida or
around the nation that performed well during the 2000 presidential
election.


--

Jacob Kramer
  #523   Report Post  
N
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message ...
"N" wrote in message
om

1. Embarrassing to anyone who was around in that era, because it's
obvious draft dodging. Although I'm not 100% against that; almost
anyone back then who had connections and the smarts to beat the draft
in some way did so.


Yep, beating the draft by enlisting is a clear example of draft dodging.
It's just beating your taxes by first paying them.


I realize that my referring to enlisting as "beating the draft" may
seem like an unusual way to describe what I meant. To clarify, I meant
people who were about to be drafted, or suspected they would be
drafted eventually, who avoided the draft and the possibility of
becoming soldiers in Vietnam (or elsewhere) by enlisting in another
branch of service where these people would be much less likely to see
combat.

A good friend of mine back then did exactly this; at the time, his
choices were either get drafted or leave the US for keeps. I think
it's quite likely Dubya had the same set of options and enlisted to
avoid being drafted. That doesn't particularly bother me; as I said
above, almost anybody who had connections and smarts back then used
those to avoid combat. That may be true in all wars. I registered for
the draft, but nobody was being drafted around then, so I didn't have
to deal with all these issues.

What does bother me is Bush supporters attacking Kerry's record, which
is obviously more impressive than Bush's. If I were a Bush supporter,
I'd be ashamed of those people.
  #524   Report Post  
N
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message ...
"N" wrote in message
om...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"N" wrote in message
m...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
k.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
. net...

(snip)


(snip)

On Bush...

He elected to serve, with the hope that his NG unit would stay
stateside (no guarantee). There is NOTHING wrong with that.


Agree. There aren't many people who want to be in combat; had I been
in his shoes, I might've looked for the best deal, taken it, and not
been ashamed either. Luckily, although I registered for the draft,
nobody was being drafted around then.

The draft system was quite unfair and made it easy for people with
connections, smarts, and money to evade being drafted.

2. Embarrassing compared to Kerry's record.


That is not embarrassing (assuming Kerry's record is an honest
representation of the truth); its just not as heroic.


I'll add that Bush's record is "not as heroic." And the attacks on
Kerry's record, when Bush's record is nowhere near as heroic, are
embarrassing, or ought to be.

By your measure, Clinton's record is embarrassing, comparted to Bush.


Perhaps so. But the fact that neither of the above apparently wanted
to fight isn't something I hold against either of them. Anyway,
Clinton is long out of office and not running this year.

3. Embarrassing because some Bush supporters have attacked Kerry's
record, when Bush has nowhere near the experience Kerry had. When it
comes to war, Kerry is obviously the "been there, done that" guy,
especially compared to Bush.

I think most of the attacks are about Kerry's veracity. The arguments are
that he
embellished things. So, even if he did, his actual service is still an honor
to
his name, assuming his lack of attention didn't cause needless innocent
death
in the sampan incident.


I think anybody'd be impressed that Kerry was willing to stick his
neck out and go to war. Kerry's obviously the "been there, done that"
guy of anybody in this post, and I respect that about Kerry. When
Kerry talks about war, he's seen war and been at war.

4. Embarrassing for Bush and his crowd to be so eager for war and to
send young people to fight it and die in it, when avoiding war and
military service was obviously so important to our leadership when
they were young enough to fight. Seems hypocritical.


William Jefferson Clinton
He avoided service through deferments, has no military experience,
did not desire to fight in Viet Nam,


Giving him much in common with many, many men of his age.

and he led US soldiers into battle.
And I do NOT criticize him for this. CIF was his job as President,
and military experience is NOT a prerequisite to be President.


Agree. It's part of the job.

And somehow this reminds me of Eisenhower's (another "been there, done
that" guy) and his warning about the military-industrial complex. If
anybody would know, it would be Ike, I think we'd all have to agree.
The increasing privatization of the military and importance of
contractors like Halliburton is pretty disturbing for those who
remember Ike's warning.

Getting back to 2004, this whole Vietnam business is working well for
Bush, in that people like us are discussing what happened decades ago,
instead of focusing on the future and thinking about what Bush or
Kerry will do, once elected.
  #526   Report Post  
Arny Krueger
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"N" wrote in message
om
"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
"N" wrote in message
om

1. Embarrassing to anyone who was around in that era, because it's
obvious draft dodging. Although I'm not 100% against that; almost
anyone back then who had connections and the smarts to beat the
draft in some way did so.


Yep, beating the draft by enlisting is a clear example of draft
dodging. It's just beating your taxes by first paying them.


I realize that my referring to enlisting as "beating the draft" may
seem like an unusual way to describe what I meant. To clarify, I meant
people who were about to be drafted, or suspected they would be
drafted eventually, who avoided the draft and the possibility of
becoming soldiers in Vietnam (or elsewhere) by enlisting in another
branch of service where these people would be much less likely to see
combat.


The odds of actually seeing combat in *any* war are fairly low - there are
something like a dozen support troops for every rifleman on the front line,
even more if the trooper on the line has more extensive technology backing
them than a rifle.

As always, there were risks and costs.

Just because you were drafted didn't mean that you went to Vietnam, and just
because you went to Vietnam didn't mean that something bad happened to you
while you were there.

Signing up for the National Guard is not a guarantee freedom from duty in a
war zone, either then or now. A reserve enlistment has a 6 year guard duty
commitment, I believe it was a 6 month active duty commitment. In contrast
draftees had only a 2 year active duty commitment that often dropped to less
than 15 months in practice. There was even a meritocracy option - if you
could qualify for training in an occupational specialty that wasn't
practiced in Vietnam, then you could take 3 years active duty with
negligable chance of going to Vietnam.

A good friend of mine back then did exactly this; at the time, his
choices were either get drafted or leave the US for keeps.


That would be the panic reaction.

I think it's quite likely Dubya had the same set of options and enlisted
to
avoid being drafted.


Like I said, there were a spectrum of legal alternatives, each had different
requirements, costs and benefits. Many of these were available to anybody
who wanted to do more duty than the absolute minimum. As always, you made
your choices and paid the price.

Did Kerry exploit the system, too? Note that he only spent 4 months in
Vietnam when the usual ground-pounder tour of duty was 12 months.

That doesn't particularly bother me; as I said
above, almost anybody who had connections and smarts back then used
those to avoid combat.


If they wanted to avoid combat. Some people like to hunt goodly-sized,
intelligent, heavily-armed mammals that can shoot back.

That may be true in all wars. I registered for
the draft, but nobody was being drafted around then, so I didn't have
to deal with all these issues.


If you would have been around during the Vietnam era, you would have had a
menu of choices to pick from.

What does bother me is Bush supporters attacking Kerry's record, which
is obviously more impressive than Bush's.


I think that Kerry invited attack from other Vietnam veterans by turning
peacnik when he returned. One could cynically say that at the time Vietnam
Kerry saw a political opportunity that had the potential to lead to the
White House.

If I were a Bush supporter, I'd be ashamed of those people.


Some of these Vietnam vet organizations that attack Kerry predate Bush's
involvement with Kerry by many years.


  #527   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

How to measure the heroism ?

For Japaneses during the WWII, kamikazes were heroes.
For the Palestinians now, humans-bombs are heroes.

By 1944, June 6th, while 9,000 GIs were killed on Normandy beachs
20,000 french civilians were killed by US and British bombing on Rouen,
Caen... Who are the real heroes of this day ?

Between January and August 1916, on 20 x 4 km square in Verdun 1916
300,000 soldiers Germans and Frenchs have been killed are they 300,000
heroes ?

I remember that US army has had 55,000 killed during war in Vietnam but
I also remember that there was also 2,000,000 Vietnameses killed during
this same war. Who are the heroes ?

In Stalingrad who was the hero ? The civilian, the communist, or the
German soldier ?

During French dirty war in Algeria who was the hero ? The fellagha or
the French parachutist ?

They have given you a funny subject of discussion and you are
discussing... What a country of morons !
  #528   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...

The disenfranchisement of Florida's voters fell most harshly on the
shoulders of black voters. The magnitude of the impact can be seen
from any of several perspectives:


*

Statewide, based upon county-level statistical estimates, black
voters were nearly 10 times more likely than nonblack voters to have
their ballots rejected.
*


A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.





Estimates indicate that approximately 14.4 percent of Florida's
black voters cast ballots that were rejected. This compares with
approximately 1.6 percent of nonblack Florida voters who did not have
their presidential votes counted.
*



A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.



Statistical analysis shows that the disparity in ballot spoilage
rates-i.e., ballots cast but not counted-between black and nonblack
voters is not the result of education or literacy differences. This
conclusion is supported by Governor Jeb Bush's Select Task Force on
Election Procedures, Standards and Technology, which found that error
rates stemming from uneducated, uninformed, or disinterested voters
account for less than 1 percent of the problems.
*


A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.


Approximately 11 percent of Florida voters were African
American; however, African Americans cast about 54 percent of the
180,000 spoiled ballots in Florida during the November 2000 election
based on estimates derived from county-level data. These statewide
estimates were corroborated by the results in several counties based
on actual precinct data.



A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.


Poor counties, particularly those with large minority populations,
were more likely to possess voting systems with higher spoilage rates
than the more affluent counties with significant white populations.
There is a high correlation between counties and precincts with a high
percentage of African American voters and the percentage of spoiled
ballots. For example:

*

Nine of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of African
American voters had spoilage rates above the Florida average.
*


A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.



Of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of white voters,
only two counties had spoilage rates above the state average.
*


A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.



Gadsden County, with the highest rate of spoiled ballots, also
had the highest percentage of African American voters.
*


A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.




Where precinct data were available, the data show that 83 of the
100 precincts with the highest numbers of spoiled ballots are
black-majority precincts.
The magnitude of the disenfranchisement, including the disparity
between black and nonblack voters, is supported by the testimony of
witnesses at the Commission's hearings. These witnesses include local
election officials, poll workers, ordinary voters, and activists.
Among the sworn testimony:



A ballot doesn't contain any racial identification of the voter.
Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. There
is no racial axe to grind.

*

One potential voter waited hours at the polls because of a
registration mix-up as poll workers attempted to call the office of
the supervisor of elections. The call never got through and the
individual was not allowed to vote. A former poll worker herself, she
testified that she never saw anything like it during her 18 years as a
poll worker.
*


Voting officials are locally elected or appointed officials. In most cases,
the County supervisor of elections was a Democrat. PARTICULARLY
IN THE AREAS WHERE BLACK POPULATION IS HIGH PERCENTAGE.

A poll worker in Miami-Dade County with 15 years of experience
testified, "By far this was the worst election I have ever
experienced. After that election, I decided I didn't want to work as a
clerk anymore."
*


A particular local election run by a DEMOCRAT.


A poll worker in Palm Beach County testified that she had to use
her personal cell phone to attempt to contact the election
supervisor's office. Despite trying all day, she only got through two
or three times over the course of 12 hours.
*


Another election RUN BY A DEMOCRAT.

A Broward County poll worker testified that in past elections it
took about 10 minutes to get through to the elections supervisor.
During the course of the November 2000 election, she turned away
approximately 40-50 potential voters because she could not access the
supervisor of elections.
*


and a THIRD COUNTY ELECTION RUN BY A DEMOCRAT.

A Boynton Beach poll worker explained how his precinct workers
turned away about 30-50 potential voters because they could not get
through to the supervisor of elections. He was successful only once
during an eight-hour period.
*


The supervisor of elections there was a DEMOCRAT!!!!!!!!!!!




Jacob Kramer


Jacob, you are an IDIOT.


  #529   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"N" wrote in message
om...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"N" wrote in message
om...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"N" wrote in message
m...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
k.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
. net...

(snip)


(snip)

On Bush...

He elected to serve, with the hope that his NG unit would stay
stateside (no guarantee). There is NOTHING wrong with that.


Agree. There aren't many people who want to be in combat; had I been
in his shoes, I might've looked for the best deal, taken it, and not
been ashamed either. Luckily, although I registered for the draft,
nobody was being drafted around then.

The draft system was quite unfair and made it easy for people with
connections, smarts, and money to evade being drafted.

2. Embarrassing compared to Kerry's record.


That is not embarrassing (assuming Kerry's record is an honest
representation of the truth); its just not as heroic.


I'll add that Bush's record is "not as heroic." And the attacks on
Kerry's record, when Bush's record is nowhere near as heroic, are
embarrassing, or ought to be.

By your measure, Clinton's record is embarrassing, comparted to Bush.


Perhaps so. But the fact that neither of the above apparently wanted
to fight isn't something I hold against either of them. Anyway,
Clinton is long out of office and not running this year.

3. Embarrassing because some Bush supporters have attacked Kerry's
record, when Bush has nowhere near the experience Kerry had. When it
comes to war, Kerry is obviously the "been there, done that" guy,
especially compared to Bush.

I think most of the attacks are about Kerry's veracity. The arguments

are
that he
embellished things. So, even if he did, his actual service is still an

honor
to
his name, assuming his lack of attention didn't cause needless innocent
death
in the sampan incident.


I think anybody'd be impressed that Kerry was willing to stick his
neck out and go to war. Kerry's obviously the "been there, done that"
guy of anybody in this post, and I respect that about Kerry. When
Kerry talks about war, he's seen war and been at war.

4. Embarrassing for Bush and his crowd to be so eager for war and to
send young people to fight it and die in it, when avoiding war and
military service was obviously so important to our leadership when
they were young enough to fight. Seems hypocritical.


William Jefferson Clinton
He avoided service through deferments, has no military experience,
did not desire to fight in Viet Nam,


Giving him much in common with many, many men of his age.

and he led US soldiers into battle.
And I do NOT criticize him for this. CIF was his job as President,
and military experience is NOT a prerequisite to be President.


Agree. It's part of the job.

And somehow this reminds me of Eisenhower's (another "been there, done
that" guy) and his warning about the military-industrial complex. If
anybody would know, it would be Ike, I think we'd all have to agree.
The increasing privatization of the military and importance of
contractors like Halliburton is pretty disturbing for those who
remember Ike's warning.

Getting back to 2004, this whole Vietnam business is working well for
Bush, in that people like us are discussing what happened decades ago,
instead of focusing on the future and thinking about what Bush or
Kerry will do, once elected.


yes, its to Bush's advantage.

BTW, Kerry, though he was called to active duty in Viet Nam,
enlisted in the Naval Reserves, not the regular Navy.


  #530   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
How to measure the heroism ?

For Japaneses during the WWII, kamikazes were heroes.
For the Palestinians now, humans-bombs are heroes.

By 1944, June 6th, while 9,000 GIs were killed on Normandy beachs
20,000 french civilians were killed by US and British bombing on Rouen,
Caen... Who are the real heroes of this day ?

Between January and August 1916, on 20 x 4 km square in Verdun 1916
300,000 soldiers Germans and Frenchs have been killed are they 300,000
heroes ?

I remember that US army has had 55,000 killed during war in Vietnam but
I also remember that there was also 2,000,000 Vietnameses killed during
this same war. Who are the heroes ?

In Stalingrad who was the hero ? The civilian, the communist, or the
German soldier ?

During French dirty war in Algeria who was the hero ? The fellagha or
the French parachutist ?

They have given you a funny subject of discussion and you are
discussing... What a country of morons !


our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.




  #531   Report Post  
GregP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:29:52 GMT, MINe 109
wrote:


Maybe this guy fulfilled his obligation, but I don't think his term was
without problems, despite his being honorably discharged:



When you have a well-known daddy in congress with a
lineage of political patronage, you are going to be
honorably discharged unless you do something truly
horrific.
  #532   Report Post  
GregP
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...


BTW, I noticed something else about one of the documents that
they have NOT been reporting on tv.....


Bull. Rush told you what to think and you were off on your
way. I doubt that you looked at *any* documents.

The document has a typed
letterhead for the squadron, three lines long, that is perfectly
centered, each of the three lines is perfectly centered. Almost
impossible witout a word processor. and it appears to be typed,
not a preprinted letterhead.


"Perfectly centered ?" Is *that* what they've conned you into
parroting ?

How is this "perfectly centered ?" It's way off to the right on the
paper, and it's a good way off to the right w/respect to the margins.
And you actually *looked* at these ? Riiiiight !

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Se...hGuardDocs.PDF

So, was this citation done on a word processor too ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...s_citation.pdf

And this one ?

http://www.quanonline.com/military/m...onze_star.html


Do you believe everything these neocons tell you ?






  #533   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Clyde Slick wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

How to measure the heroism ?

For Japaneses during the WWII, kamikazes were heroes.
For the Palestinians now, humans-bombs are heroes.

By 1944, June 6th, while 9,000 GIs were killed on Normandy beachs
20,000 french civilians were killed by US and British bombing on Rouen,
Caen... Who are the real heroes of this day ?

Between January and August 1916, on 20 x 4 km square in Verdun 1916
300,000 soldiers Germans and Frenchs have been killed are they 300,000
heroes ?

I remember that US army has had 55,000 killed during war in Vietnam but
I also remember that there was also 2,000,000 Vietnameses killed during
this same war. Who are the heroes ?

In Stalingrad who was the hero ? The civilian, the communist, or the
German soldier ?

During French dirty war in Algeria who was the hero ? The fellagha or
the French parachutist ?

They have given you a funny subject of discussion and you are
discussing... What a country of morons !



our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.


USA *never* bailed out France.

1. In 1944 after heavy bombing and destructions USA came to get the good
reconstruction business.

2. The guys in Dien Bien Phu are still waiting for promised US
bombings... Final result : more than 10,000 thousand deads.

Note that it's a little bit difficult to discuss that with the cowards
who has watched, the horrible assassination of 6,000,000 persons of
their community comfortably installed, drinking Coca-Cola on the other
side of the Atlantic. :-(
  #534   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from voting
other than convicted felons.


The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm


After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida. The VRA was enacted
in 1965 to enforce the 15th Amendment's proscription against voting
discrimination. It is aimed at both subtle and overt state action that
has the effect of denying a citizen the right to vote because of his
or her race. Although the VRA originally focused on enfranchising
African Americans, the law has been amended several times to also
include American Indians, Asian Americans, Alaskan Natives, and people
of Spanish heritage. Additionally, the VRA includes a provision that
recognizes the need for multilingual assistance for non-English
speakers.

The VRA does not require intent to discriminate. Neither does it
require proof of a conspiracy. Violations of the VRA can be
established by evidence that the action or inaction of responsible
officials and other evidence constitute a "totality of the
circumstances" that denied citizens their right to vote. For example,
if there are differences in voting procedures and voting technologies
and the result of those differences is to advantage white voters and
disadvantage minority voters, then the laws, the procedures, and the
decisions that produced those results, viewed in the context of social
and historical factors, can be discriminatory, and a violation of the
VRA.

The report does not find that the highest officials of the state
conspired to disenfranchise voters. Moreover, even if it was
foreseeable that certain actions by officials led to voter
disenfranchisement, this alone does not mean that intentional
discrimination occurred. Instead, the report concludes that officials
ignored the mounting evidence of rising voter registration rates in
communities. The state's highest officials responsible for ensuring
efficiency, uniformity, and fairness in the election failed to fulfill
their responsibilities and were subsequently unwilling to take
responsibility.

Disenfranchised Voters

Disenfranchised voters are individuals who are entitled to vote, want
to vote, or attempt to vote, but who are deprived from either voting
or having their votes counted. The most dramatic undercount in the
Florida election was the uncast ballots of countless eligible voters
who were wrongfully turned away from the polls. Statistical data,
reinforced by credible anecdotal evidence, point to the widespread
denial of voting rights. It is impossible to determine the extent of
the disenfranchisement or to provide an adequate remedy to the persons
whose voices were silenced by injustice, ineptitude, and inefficiency.
However, careful analysis and some reasonable projections illustrate
what happened in Florida.

The disenfranchisement of Florida's voters fell most harshly on the
shoulders of black voters. The magnitude of the impact can be seen
from any of several perspectives:

*

Statewide, based upon county-level statistical estimates, black
voters were nearly 10 times more likely than nonblack voters to have
their ballots rejected.
*

Because they punched their ballots incorrectly.

Estimates indicate that approximately 14.4 percent of Florida's
black voters cast ballots that were rejected.


See above.

This compares with
approximately 1.6 percent of nonblack Florida voters who did not have
their presidential votes counted.
*

Statistical analysis shows that the disparity in ballot spoilage
rates-i.e., ballots cast but not counted-between black and nonblack
voters is not the result of education or literacy differences. This
conclusion is supported by Governor Jeb Bush's Select Task Force on
Election Procedures, Standards and Technology, which found that error
rates stemming from uneducated, uninformed, or disinterested voters
account for less than 1 percent of the problems.
*

Approximately 11 percent of Florida voters were African
American; however, African Americans cast about 54 percent of the
180,000 spoiled ballots in Florida during the November 2000 election
based on estimates derived from county-level data. These statewide
estimates were corroborated by the results in several counties based
on actual precinct data.

Poor counties, particularly those with large minority populations,
were more likely to possess voting systems with higher spoilage rates
than the more affluent counties with significant white populations.
There is a high correlation between counties and precincts with a high
percentage of African American voters and the percentage of spoiled
ballots. For example:

*

Nine of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of African
American voters had spoilage rates above the Florida average.
*

Of the 10 counties with the highest percentage of white voters,
only two counties had spoilage rates above the state average.
*

Gadsden County, with the highest rate of spoiled ballots, also
had the highest percentage of African American voters.
*

Where precinct data were available, the data show that 83 of the
100 precincts with the highest numbers of spoiled ballots are
black-majority precincts.
The magnitude of the disenfranchisement, including the disparity
between black and nonblack voters, is supported by the testimony of
witnesses at the Commission's hearings. These witnesses include local
election officials, poll workers, ordinary voters, and activists.
Among the sworn testimony:

*

One potential voter waited hours at the polls because of a
registration mix-up as poll workers attempted to call the office of
the supervisor of elections. The call never got through and the
individual was not allowed to vote. A former poll worker herself, she
testified that she never saw anything like it during her 18 years as a
poll worker.
*

A poll worker in Miami-Dade County with 15 years of experience
testified, "By far this was the worst election I have ever
experienced. After that election, I decided I didn't want to work as a
clerk anymore."
*

Probably because the Dems in their zeal to get blacks to vote didn't spend
enough effort on teaching them about the various voting machines.


A poll worker in Palm Beach County testified that she had to use
her personal cell phone to attempt to contact the election
supervisor's office. Despite trying all day, she only got through two
or three times over the course of 12 hours.
*

Shocking to think they might be busy that day.

A Broward County poll worker testified that in past elections it
took about 10 minutes to get through to the elections supervisor.
During the course of the November 2000 election, she turned away
approximately 40-50 potential voters because she could not access the
supervisor of elections.
*

A Boynton Beach poll worker explained how his precinct workers
turned away about 30-50 potential voters because they could not get
through to the supervisor of elections. He was successful only once
during an eight-hour period.
*

Other persons testified about waiting in long lines only to be
ultimately denied their right to vote.

The Commission calls upon the attorney general of the United States to
immediately begin the litigation process to determine liability under
the VRA [Voting Rights Act] and appropriate remedies. The Commission
is a fact-finding body, authorized to investigate allegations of
voting discrimination, fraud, and other irregularities. However, it
does not adjudicate violations of the law, hold trials, or determine
civil or criminal liability. It is within the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Department of Justice and Florida law enforcement officials to seek
appropriate sanctions and remedies. In addition to calling on the
attorney general to initiate the litigation process on this issue, the
Commission requests this action on a number of other issues as well,
such as Florida's handling of its voter roll purge and its failure to
accommodate voters with disabilities and limited English proficiency.

The Commission recommends that Florida retain knowledgeable experts to
undertake a formal study to ascertain the reason for the racial
disparities in vote rejection rates between white voters and persons
of color. Once this is completed, the state should adopt and publicize
procedures to eliminate this disparity. As a start, the state could
identify and promote the "best practices" of counties in Florida or
around the nation that performed well during the 2000 presidential
election.


--

Then why did the Attorney General of Florida, a Democrat not find any
validity to such claims and IIRC there was less than 10 real complaints that
were worth pursuing?

Why did Janet Reno not do anything?

Why didn't the press find anything?

Once again a denial of personal responsibility on the part of the people
voting. There was no conspiracy, there was no fraud, there was just a bunch
of people who ****ed up their votes.


  #535   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Phil" wrote in message
news:NM52d.51822$MQ5.9644@attbi_s52...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Phil" wrote in message
news:LwL1d.49728$D%.24659@attbi_s51...

The 100% definitive call is not to claim forgery but that isn't a

forgery
and is on the consideration of handwriting analysis, which is not the
issue
thus relevant.


Arny!!!!!

Help me decipher this Krooglish, please.



I admit this isn't well written but let me explain. It would help a bit
if
you hadn't edited the previous post so much.
Anyway MINe 109 quoted this: "One problem in making the case of this
being

a
forgery is that the
credible experts cited will not make a 100% definitive call without

seeing
the original. "

This has to do with handwriting analysis. You can 100% definitively say

the
handwriting is authentic unless you have the original, however the

statement
is reverse. That you can't show forgery without the original. Realize the
requirement is to show your right, that the document is authentic.
Assumption of forgery can happen if you can't prove authentic of the
document thus the 100% isn't needed.
The second point was the post was about Boston Global article that MINe

109
used to support his point which proved invalid. This statement was a
immaterial to the issue.

Phil



I give up.

"You can 100% definitively say the
handwriting is authentic unless you have the original, however the
statement
is reverse." ?????????????????

"Realize the requirement is to show your right, that the document is
authentic.
Assumption of forgery can happen if you can't prove authentic of the
document thus the 100% isn't needed." ???????????

I think somehow this lies in the semantics of the word forgery.
There are two possible forgeries. One, the document could be forged.
Two, the signature could be forged. It doesn't
have to be both, though in this case, it is.
However, note that it would be realisitically
inexplicable as to how one could have a forged document
with the real signature.

Cut and paste. Since the forged documents were done with MS Word, no
problem.




  #536   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"N" wrote in message
om...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message

...
"N" wrote in message
m...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...
"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
k.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
. net...

(snip)

BTW, I noticed something else about one of the documents that
they have NOT been reporting on tv. The document has a typed
letterhead for the squadron, three lines long, that is perfectly
centered, each of the three lines is perfectly centered. Almost
impossible witout a word processor. and it appears to be typed,
not a preprinted letterhead.

I couldn't care less. Bush's military record is already so
embarrassing, it must be cheering the Bush camp up to see something
embarrassing about his military record that might be discredited.

The reason the Bush supporters have attacked Kerry's military record
is because Bush's record is so embarrassing. With nothing to brag
about, the Bush supporters attack Kerry. So Bush didn't want to go
fight an unpopular war in Vietnam; big deal, lots of people didn't
want to go, and lots of people found loopholes or managed to dodge
the
draft back then. Bush is just another "chicken hawk," like Cheney,
Gingrich, etc.; they avoided war themselves, but they have no qualms
about sending young men to battle.


Embarrassing? An honorable discharge and no mention of negative fitness
reports equals embarrassing? Acquiring the knowledge and skills
required

to
be a fighter pilot is embarrassing?


Embarrassing in four ways:

1. Embarrassing to anyone who was around in that era, because it's
obvious draft dodging. Although I'm not 100% against that; almost
anyone back then who had connections and the smarts to beat the draft
in some way did so.

BTW, of the guys I knew then who were eligible for the draft, all but
one beat the draft by staying in college, caring for a sick parent, or
other deferments that were accepted by draft boards. Of the guys I
knew then, only one guy ever really was about to get drafted, and he
beat that (sort of) by enlisting in another branch of the service.

Beating the draft...deferments...hmmm...sound familiar? Like a lot of
national leaders recently?

(BTW, I also had to register for the draft back then, but was never
drafted. Had I been called up, I probably would've tried to get a
deferment and/or avoid Vietnam, just like everyone else.)


He elected to serve, with the hope that his NG unit would stay
stateside (no guarantee). There is NOTHING wrong with that.

2. Embarrassing compared to Kerry's record.


That is not embarrassing (assuming Kerry's record is an honest
representation of the truth); its just not as heroic.

By your measure, Clinton's record is embarrassing, comparted to Bush.

Clinton's record is embarrassing to anyone with a shred of objectivity.


3. Embarrassing because some Bush supporters have attacked Kerry's
record, when Bush has nowhere near the experience Kerry had.


They have similar expierience with deferments, Kerry got four his 5th was to
study in France which was rejected.

When it
comes to war, Kerry is obviously the "been there, done that" guy,
especially compared to Bush.

Four 4 whole months, whoopdedoo. One bogus Purple Heart, 2 that he earned.


I think most of the attacks are about Kerry's veracity. The arguments are
that he
embellished things. So, even if he did, his actual service is still an
honor
to
his name, assuming his lack of attention didn't cause needless innocent
death
in the sampan incident.


4. Embarrassing for Bush and his crowd to be so eager for war and to
send young people to fight it and die in it, when avoiding war and
military service was obviously so important to our leadership when
they were young enough to fight. Seems hypocritical.


Everybody with means at the time did their best to keep fromgetting drafted,
including Kerry. I will say that he was damn site more ballsy than that
dickhead Gore, who had an armed guard with him while he took pictures.

William Jefferson Clinton
He avoided service through deferments, has no military experience,
did not desire to fight in Viet Nam, and he led US soldiers into battle.
And I do NOT criticize him for this. CIF was his job as President,
and military experience is NOT a prerequisite to be President.

He is also quoted from a letter he wrote IIRC to the Selective Service,
saying he despised the military.

The military definitely suffered under his administration as this was the
only are of real cuts during his administration. There was, as I recall a
very high attrition rate due to cuts and the fact that many military
personnel hated his ****ing guts.

To reduce government staff in the White House he replaced civilian help with
military people for jobs like waiting tables, etc.


  #537   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"GregP" wrote in message
...
"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...


BTW, I noticed something else about one of the documents that
they have NOT been reporting on tv.....


Bull. Rush told you what to think and you were off on your
way. I doubt that you looked at *any* documents.

The document has a typed
letterhead for the squadron, three lines long, that is perfectly
centered, each of the three lines is perfectly centered. Almost
impossible witout a word processor. and it appears to be typed,
not a preprinted letterhead.


"Perfectly centered ?" Is *that* what they've conned you into
parroting ?

How is this "perfectly centered ?" It's way off to the right on the
paper, and it's a good way off to the right w/respect to the margins.
And you actually *looked* at these ? Riiiiight !


No, I actually printed it out and measured it.
Because this is a fax of an original, and not done carefuly, you will see
that the original page is offset 1/4 inch to the right. And, the margins
on the original page are not set equally, form right to left.
There is an inch an a half margin on the left (measured as to the
edge of the original, not the print out, to account for offset)
and only about an inch margin on the right.
Measured between the two margins, the header is perfectly centered.
This is exactly how a word processor would format it.



http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Se...hGuardDocs.PDF

So, was this citation done on a word processor too ?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...s_citation.pdf

And this one ?


http://www.quanonline.com/military/m...onze_star.html


Do you believe everything these neocons tell you ?


Do you still beieve these are legitimate original documents from 1973?


  #538   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...



I think somehow this lies in the semantics of the word forgery.
There are two possible forgeries. One, the document could be forged.
Two, the signature could be forged. It doesn't
have to be both, though in this case, it is.
However, note that it would be realisitically
inexplicable as to how one could have a forged document
with the real signature.

Cut and paste. Since the forged documents were done with MS Word, no
problem.



It's just semantics. I wouldn't consider a cut and paste signature a real
signature.


  #539   Report Post  
Jacob Kramer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from voting
other than convicted felons.


The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.


This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Jacob Kramer
  #540   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody
who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from voting
other than convicted felons.

The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.


This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Your splitting hairs. Nobody found anything deliberate which is what the
Dems where screaming had happened. Nobody thought there was anything
serious enough to make them bring the force of law to bear on.

A lot of blather and generalizations that could well apply to California or
Massachusetts.





  #541   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
Clyde Slick wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...
our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.


USA *never* bailed out France.

1. In 1944 after heavy bombing and destructions USA came to get the good
reconstruction business.

2. The guys in Dien Bien Phu are still waiting for promised US bombings...
Final result : more than 10,000 thousand deads.


Are you proud of post WWII French colonialism?


Note that it's a little bit difficult to discuss that with the cowards who
has watched, the horrible assassination of 6,000,000 persons of their
community


Lionel is very correct. With the benefit of hind-sight, only a fool could
think the liberation of France was worth the cost.

I call on Lionel to remind everyone of this anytime that France is
threatened. It is a country that is not worth a single life to maintain.

ScottW


  #542   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
.. .
our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.


USA *never* bailed out France.

1. In 1944 after heavy bombing and destructions USA came to get the good
reconstruction business.

2. The guys in Dien Bien Phu are still waiting for promised US bombings...
Final result : more than 10,000 thousand deads.



Are you proud of post WWII French colonialism?


Note that it's a little bit difficult to discuss that with the cowards who
has watched, the horrible assassination of 6,000,000 persons of their
community



Lionel is very correct. With the benefit of hind-sight, only a fool could
think the liberation of France was worth the cost.


In 1944 USA were so *scary* by socialist that they would have not
hesited to NUKE the French territory.
In the end US industry have won a lot of money in this military action...
While Paris was threatened of destruction US army learders were
answering "Paris is not a priority" !!!

With the *GIs* who have courageously fought and lost their life on
Normandie's beach there are only few Americans politics that should be
thanked for French liberation : Roosevelt...

I call on Lionel to remind everyone of this anytime that France is
threatened. It is a country that is not worth a single life to maintain.


If you are speaking of *YOUR* life Scott, you are right.
We don't want of your stinking body, keep it for the unfruitful
Californian desert. :-)


ScottW


  #543   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not

allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody
who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from

voting
other than convicted felons.

The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.


This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Your splitting hairs. Nobody found anything deliberate which is what the
Dems where screaming had happened. Nobody thought there was anything
serious enough to make them bring the force of law to bear on.

A lot of blather and generalizations that could well apply to California

or
Massachusetts.



At any rate, remember that it was the Democrats who were in control
of the local election boards and election and vote counting processes,
in the heavily black populated counties Jacov was complaining about.



  #544   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

Clyde Slick wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
. ..
our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.

USA *never* bailed out France.

1. In 1944 after heavy bombing and destructions USA came to get the good
reconstruction business.

2. The guys in Dien Bien Phu are still waiting for promised US
bombings... Final result : more than 10,000 thousand deads.



Are you proud of post WWII French colonialism?


Note that it's a little bit difficult to discuss that with the cowards
who has watched, the horrible assassination of 6,000,000 persons of their
community



Lionel is very correct. With the benefit of hind-sight, only a fool
could think the liberation of France was worth the cost.


In 1944 USA were so *scary* by socialist that they would have not hesited
to NUKE the French territory.
In the end US industry have won a lot of money in this military action...
While Paris was threatened of destruction US army learders were answering
"Paris is not a priority" !!!


What is Paris today.... with its sprawling slums of muslims? A city with a
bleak future growing bleaker by the year just like your country.

ScottW


  #545   Report Post  
Jacob Kramer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:16:02 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody
who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from voting
other than convicted felons.

The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.


This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Your splitting hairs. Nobody found anything deliberate which is what the
Dems where screaming had happened. Nobody thought there was anything
serious enough to make them bring the force of law to bear on.


You made a statement of fact--that no one had found widespread
disenfranchisement--that is false. Were you aware of the findings of
this commission?

The findings in fact formed the basis for the overhaul of electoral
machinery in Florida via the Florida Electoral Reform Act of 2001, as
well as other legislative remedies and litigation:

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/sum0802.htm

A lot of blather and generalizations that could well apply to California or
Massachusetts.


There may well have been important voting problems in other states,
but the specific findings of report on Florida did not apply to either
of those states.

You can learn about the 2000 vote and the subsequent reform efforts
he

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/main.htm

The site for the commission is:

http://www.usccr.gov/

--

Jacob Kramer


  #546   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

ScottW wrote:

"Lionel" wrote in message
.. .


Clyde Slick wrote:


"Lionel" wrote in message
.. .
our only stupidity is continually bailing out the French.

USA *never* bailed out France.

1. In 1944 after heavy bombing and destructions USA came to get the good
reconstruction business.

2. The guys in Dien Bien Phu are still waiting for promised US
bombings... Final result : more than 10,000 thousand deads.


Are you proud of post WWII French colonialism?



Note that it's a little bit difficult to discuss that with the cowards
who has watched, the horrible assassination of 6,000,000 persons of their
community


Lionel is very correct. With the benefit of hind-sight, only a fool
could think the liberation of France was worth the cost.


In 1944 USA were so *scary* by socialist that they would have not hesited
to NUKE the French territory.
In the end US industry have won a lot of money in this military action...
While Paris was threatened of destruction US army learders were answering
"Paris is not a priority" !!!



What is Paris today....


When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?

with its sprawling slums of muslims? A city with a
bleak future growing bleaker by the year just like your country.


Scott, you shoudn't let your primal racism and xenophobia take the
control of your emotions.
You are obviously suffering of the American syndrom, this inferiority
complex which makes an ass of yourself.
I can understand a little bit of chauvinism, a little bit of national
preference but your nationalist comments are disgusting. :-(

You should focus on music and HiFi.
  #547   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
"Paris is not a priority" !!!



What is Paris today....


When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?


Do I need to go there for you to accept the decline of your crown jewel of
cities?


with its sprawling slums of muslims? A city with a bleak future growing
bleaker by the year just like your country.


Scott, you shoudn't let your primal racism and xenophobia take the control
of your emotions.


I see, you think slums are an improvement. Perhaps they are.

You are obviously suffering of the American syndrom, this inferiority
complex which makes an ass of yourself.
I can understand a little bit of chauvinism, a little bit of national
preference but your nationalist comments are disgusting. :-(


The truth is often painful. I understand your disgust but the blame is
misplaced. America is not responsible for the plight your nation is in.

ScottW


  #548   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
...

"Michael McKelvy" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not

allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in
the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and
nobody
who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from

voting
other than convicted felons.

The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.

This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Your splitting hairs. Nobody found anything deliberate which is what the
Dems where screaming had happened. Nobody thought there was anything
serious enough to make them bring the force of law to bear on.

A lot of blather and generalizations that could well apply to California

or
Massachusetts.



At any rate, remember that it was the Democrats who were in control
of the local election boards and election and vote counting processes,
in the heavily black populated counties Jacov was complaining about.


It's been said so many times before, if he didn't already know it he's been
avoiding knowing it.


  #549   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:16:02 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:42:19 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
m...
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 20:46:21 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:

Case in point, to day Kerry is making vaugue comments about not
allowing
the
GOP to keep black voters from making it to the poll as they did in the
last
election. Of course it never happened in the last election and nobody
who
investigated it found any evidence of anybody be disallowed from
voting
other than convicted felons.

The United States Commission on Civil Rights in 2001 found widespread
disfranchisement, especially among African-Americans.

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/exesum.htm

After carefully and fully examining all the evidence, the Commission
found a strong basis for concluding that violations of Section 2 of
the Voting Rights Act (VRA) occurred in Florida.

This is a very clear contradiction of your statement that no one found
such disenfranchisement.

--

Your splitting hairs. Nobody found anything deliberate which is what the
Dems where screaming had happened. Nobody thought there was anything
serious enough to make them bring the force of law to bear on.


You made a statement of fact--that no one had found widespread
disenfranchisement--that is false. Were you aware of the findings of
this commission?


Excuse the **** out of me, I thought we were talking about the generally
know accusations made by the Dems about Florida. No I was not aware of
these findings but they don't really mean much IMO. There was no conspriacy
to keep Blacks from voting in Florida and none of the accusations made by
the Dems that were reported in the press turned out to be true, which is par
for the course.

The findings in fact formed the basis for the overhaul of electoral
machinery in Florida via the Florida Electoral Reform Act of 2001, as
well as other legislative remedies and litigation:

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/sum0802.htm


Florida election law was a definite cluster **** of non-standards. It's the
only good thing to come out of all the ****ing and moaning by the Dems.

A lot of blather and generalizations that could well apply to California
or
Massachusetts.


There may well have been important voting problems in other states,
but the specific findings of report on Florida did not apply to either
of those states.

Did they study any place else?

You're aware that if the next election is close the Dems are already laying
the groundwork to make the same bull**** claims again.

You can learn about the 2000 vote and the subsequent reform efforts
he

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/main.htm

The site for the commission is:

http://www.usccr.gov/

--

Jacob Kramer



  #550   Report Post  
Jacob Kramer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:24:39 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:16:02 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


You made a statement of fact--that no one had found widespread
disenfranchisement--that is false. Were you aware of the findings of
this commission?


Excuse the **** out of me, I thought we were talking about the generally
know accusations made by the Dems about Florida. No I was not aware of
these findings


That will do. This is the closest thing to an admission of error you
are likely to give.


  #551   Report Post  
Jacob Kramer
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:10:36 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
"Paris is not a priority" !!!


What is Paris today....


When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?


Do I need to go there for you to accept the decline of your crown jewel of
cities?


Have you ever been to Paris?
  #552   Report Post  
Michael McKelvy
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:24:39 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:16:02 GMT, "Michael McKelvy"
wrote:


You made a statement of fact--that no one had found widespread
disenfranchisement--that is false. Were you aware of the findings of
this commission?


Excuse the **** out of me, I thought we were talking about the generally
know accusations made by the Dems about Florida. No I was not aware of
these findings


That will do. This is the closest thing to an admission of error you
are likely to give.


Evasion of my original point, noted.


  #553   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:
"Lionel" wrote in message
...

ScottW wrote:

"Paris is not a priority" !!!


What is Paris today....


When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?



Do I need to go there for you to accept the decline of your crown jewel of
cities?


with its sprawling slums of muslims? A city with a bleak future growing
bleaker by the year just like your country.


Scott, you shoudn't let your primal racism and xenophobia take the control
of your emotions.



I see, you think slums are an improvement. Perhaps they are.


You are obviously suffering of the American syndrom, this inferiority
complex which makes an ass of yourself.
I can understand a little bit of chauvinism, a little bit of national
preference but your nationalist comments are disgusting. :-(



The truth is often painful. I understand your disgust but the blame is
misplaced. America is not responsible for the plight your nation is in.

ScottW


  #554   Report Post  
Lionel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

ScottW wrote:
The truth is often painful. I understand your disgust but the blame is
misplaced. America is not responsible for the plight your nation is in.


Scott, do you know that in America about 30% of the population is
overweighted ?
Do you know that 60% of these 30% are seriously obese ?

Do you know that American consume nearly more insulin than oil ? ;-)

I don't really know what you mean by "plight" but I guess that all this
excess of fat is an interesting challenge for your leaders. :-)
  #555   Report Post  
ScottW
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
The truth is often painful. I understand your disgust but the blame is
misplaced. America is not responsible for the plight your nation is in.


(snipped a bunch of jibberish)

So we're fat, but your nation is losing its heritage and culture, and we
can diet.

ScottW




  #556   Report Post  
Clyde Slick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:10:36 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
"Paris is not a priority" !!!


What is Paris today....

When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?


Do I need to go there for you to accept the decline of your crown jewel

of
cities?


Have you ever been to Paris?


Have you ever been to Baghdad?


  #557   Report Post  
Bruce J. Richman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Art wrote:


"Jacob Kramer" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:10:36 -0700, "ScottW"
wrote:


"Lionel" wrote in message
...
ScottW wrote:
"Paris is not a priority" !!!


What is Paris today....

When was the last time that you visit us, Scott ?

Do I need to go there for you to accept the decline of your crown jewel

of
cities?


Have you ever been to Paris?


Have you ever been to Baghdad?










"Well I never been to Spain
But I kinda like the music"

(Three Dog Night)




Bruce J. Richman



Reply
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:32 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AudioBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Audio and hi-fi"