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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Gary Eickmeier wrote:


I have written in the past that mis-positioning speakers with a
multi-directional output can cause imaging problems due to a
clustering of reflections from too near room surfaces. The main
audible result is a seeming stretching of center soloists or hole
in the middle.


http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/WW5604v62p206.pdf


_Thank_ _You!_


Not a word of acknowledgement or dawning comprehension from the O/P, I
notice.


Adrian,

We have been friends in the past. I know I have been slow in checking out
all of the discs you have sent me, for which I apologize. My wife has
constant headaches and I can't play my music whenever I want, so things get
put on the back burner.

If that is the reason for your "dawning comprehension" remark I can only ask
you to forgive and keep personalities out of it.

1956? This is the extent of your knowledge about reproduction? Why did you
drag this out of the closet? This is the kind of ignorance I have been
writing about. What am I supposed to do, write my article all over again in
answer to it?

These guys have discovered time/intensity trading. They think that stereo
works with the direct sound only. They confuse stereo with binaural. They
state that the position of a source will not be quite as well defined with
reverberation present as it would be without. They advocate using a binaural
head or similar because they think we are recording input signals for the
ears. Then they show a drawing of closely spaced cardioids (Fig 11) in which
the right microphone is pointing to the left and vice versa!

This is an ancient, silly article. You must be showing it to us because in
all their wisdom they say that we don't want reflections in the playback
room. Pardon me, but this is where I came in. I don't need to see it again.

Gary Eickmeier


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:
If you are a happy amateur with the freedom that is a part of it, then it
is
a good and noble aim to make recordings for your own stereo. If you are a
professional you must make recordings for everybody's stereo.


Amen to that brother. Someone very smart once noted that the definition of
a
professional is a person who is the tool of the man who hires him.


Exactly, which is at odds with what Peter said though, since you primarily
have to please the person paying the bill, which is not necessarily the same
as pleasing "everybody's stereo" and in fact more often isn't these days.

Trevor.


  #243   Report Post  
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Gary Eickmeier Gary Eickmeier is offline
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George Graves wrote:
In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

George Graves wrote:

"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message
...


I am not a craxy and I base all of my observations on listening
and I have heard them all and used my own system as a laboratory
to prove out my theories and it really does check out. I know and
have heard good and bad sound, mine is good and I am dismissed at
the starting gate as soon as they hear the word Bose, and all
communication ceases. I thought I was going to get some sorely
needed street cred in the Linkwitz Challenge, but it was not to
be. Too many egos involved to admit I could be right about
something that they had ridiculed and tried to straighten me out
on for so many years.


This reminds me of the soldier wondering why everyone else is out
of step but him :-)
IF you are happy, why care what others think? But trying to change
everyone elses opinion to suit your own is both stupid and
narcissistic.


Trevor.


I have often wondered this about Gary. If he is happy with his
experiments and the sound of his stereo system, and of the
recordings he makes, Wy should he care that others might not agree
with his conclusions?


If you are a happy amateur with the freedom that is a part of it,
then it is a good and noble aim to make recordings for your own
stereo. If you are a professional you must make recordings for
everybody's stereo.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Amen to that brother. Someone very smart once noted that the
definition of a professional is a person who is the tool of the man
who hires him.


Well, you are indeed a tool George...

George and I have exchanged discs a few times and have enjoyed it. I can
hear the qualities in his work on my crummy amateur system somehow, and he
has complimented my recordings. Why the "piling on" here is a mystery to me.
Maybe he's a climber. Extremely offensive and dissapointing.

Gary


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Trevor Trevor is offline
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"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you described -
really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive crossovers.


Yes, a pity that they did have some clues like conjugate capacitors, but
often spent more money on the aluminium boxes for many of their Xovers than
the rest of the parts.
Of course they weren't alone there, KEF's of the same vintage are also
improved by adding better Xovers, as are quite a few others with good enough
drivers to bother.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it support
really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had "big
bass"
but not really very deep bass.


That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a 12"
woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with less
compression and distortion than smaller systems.

Trevor.


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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

Why the "piling on" here is a mystery to me.


Obviously.

When multiple people disagree with false pretenses to which you cling,
you think it's "piling on".

A man who came to learn would think it was advice worth considering well
enough to expend sufficient effort to understand that which is being
offered.

You'd rather type than learn.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic


  #246   Report Post  
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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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George Graves wrote:

- excellent". And yes, I slammed them back then and ended up buying
a pair in 1997 and it is one of the best audio purchases I made.
Because if it is good on them, it is good on everything ...


People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you
described - really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive
crossovers.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it
support really good low-end from these drivers? Because the original
speakers had "big bass" but not really very deep bass.


Flumpy bass in - flumpy bass out. Good bass in - good bass out.

Are you aware that the fairly small port bends due to its length?

Kind regards

Peter Larsen



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Adrian Tuddenham[_2_] Adrian Tuddenham[_2_] is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

[...]

http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/WW5604v62p206.pdf


1956? This is the extent of your knowledge about reproduction? Why did you
drag this out of the closet? This is the kind of ignorance I have been
writing about. What am I supposed to do, write my article all over again in
answer to it?


If necessary, yes.

[...]

This is an ancient, silly article.


This is a well-written report on properly conducted research. It works
from established principles of physics and acoustics and puts forward
explanations based on controlled experiments. Where the errors due to
individual judgements are unavoidable, these are reduced by using
multiple subjects.

Much more has been discovered about acoustics since that article was
written, but most of it is still based on the results of research like
that from the 1930s to the 1950s. None of this later research (AFAIK)
has ever discovered any major deviation from those original established
principles.

The fact that the explanations which the paper proposes have been
accepted for over 55 years with little modification is an indication
that it is very likely to be correct in most of its conclusions. It
also provides perfectly adequate and straightforward explanations for
the well-known phenomena which you have observed, without the need for
any further speculation.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
  #248   Report Post  
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Neil Gould Neil Gould is offline
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:
Peter Larsen wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Gary Eickmeier wrote:

I have written in the past that mis-positioning speakers with a
multi-directional output can cause imaging problems due to a
clustering of reflections from too near room surfaces. The main
audible result is a seeming stretching of center soloists or hole
in the middle.

http://www.poppyrecords.co.uk/other/WW5604v62p206.pdf

_Thank_ _You!_


Not a word of acknowledgement or dawning comprehension from the O/P,
I notice.


Adrian,

We have been friends in the past. I know I have been slow in checking
out all of the discs you have sent me, for which I apologize. My wife
has constant headaches and I can't play my music whenever I want,

Wow. Is there anyone from whom you *can* take a hint? ;-)
--
best regards,

Neil



  #249   Report Post  
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Tobiah Tobiah is offline
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On 09/28/2013 03:58 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Check this out:

https://www.zoom-na.com/

The most amazing recorder I have yet seen. I could get rid of my mixer,
multichannel recorder (Zoom R16) and my battery powered Phantom power
supply. It is a six channel recorder and full studio in a box!

Gary Eickmeier


Now that you have the unit, can you put some of this
into perspective now that you have had some limited experience
with it?

Tobiah

  #250   Report Post  
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article , "Trevor"
wrote:

"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you described -
really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive crossovers.


Yes, a pity that they did have some clues like conjugate capacitors, but
often spent more money on the aluminium boxes for many of their Xovers than
the rest of the parts.
Of course they weren't alone there, KEF's of the same vintage are also
improved by adding better Xovers, as are quite a few others with good enough
drivers to bother.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it support
really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had "big
bass"
but not really very deep bass.


That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a 12"
woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with less
compression and distortion than smaller systems.

Trevor.


That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series
studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the
listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies, these
speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in the way of
REAL, deep bass.

I was doing a lot of recording for NPR at this time (I was the recording
engineer for their "Jazz Alive" series, among other projects). Anyway,
KQED-FM had JBL 4310's in their editing studio and I used it extensively
to put together the "Jazz Alive" location recordings that I made all over
San Francisco. Once I was required to record a pipe-organist at the huge
Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill. I took the 2-track/15ips master back to the
studio to edit it for broadcast (I wasn't a KQED employee, but the producer
was). I couldn't believe how poor the organ sounded on those speakers and
was scared that something had gone wrong with the recording. So, the
producer and I grabbed the tape off of the studio Ampex and took it to my
house to play it on my AR-2ax's. There was nothing wrong with the recording
(the bass was spectacular), but the JBLs emasculated it of any real low end.

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their experiences with these
speakers.


  #251   Report Post  
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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On Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:07:38 PM UTC-7, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
George Graves wrote:

In article ,


"Peter Larsen" wrote:




George Graves wrote:




"Gary Eickmeier" wrote in message


...




I am not a craxy and I base all of my observations on listening


and I have heard them all and used my own system as a laboratory


to prove out my theories and it really does check out. I know and


have heard good and bad sound, mine is good and I am dismissed at


the starting gate as soon as they hear the word Bose, and all


communication ceases. I thought I was going to get some sorely


needed street cred in the Linkwitz Challenge, but it was not to


be. Too many egos involved to admit I could be right about


something that they had ridiculed and tried to straighten me out


on for so many years.




This reminds me of the soldier wondering why everyone else is out


of step but him :-)


IF you are happy, why care what others think? But trying to change


everyone elses opinion to suit your own is both stupid and


narcissistic.




Trevor.




I have often wondered this about Gary. If he is happy with his


experiments and the sound of his stereo system, and of the


recordings he makes, Wy should he care that others might not agree


with his conclusions?




If you are a happy amateur with the freedom that is a part of it,


then it is a good and noble aim to make recordings for your own


stereo. If you are a professional you must make recordings for


everybody's stereo.




Kind regards




Peter Larsen




Amen to that brother. Someone very smart once noted that the


definition of a professional is a person who is the tool of the man


who hires him.




Well, you are indeed a tool George...



George and I have exchanged discs a few times and have enjoyed it. I can

hear the qualities in his work on my crummy amateur system somehow, and he

has complimented my recordings. Why the "piling on" here is a mystery to me.

Maybe he's a climber. Extremely offensive and dissapointing.



Gary


Gary, don't look now, but your paranoia is showing. Nobody is "piling on you".
Just because I am critical of some of your theories and some of your experiments
doesn't mean that I'm attacking you personally. I'm not. I still consider us friends
and I have jumped to your defense more than once here.
  #252   Report Post  
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Neil Gould Neil Gould is offline
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George Graves wrote:
In article , "Trevor"

wrote:

"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you
described - really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive
crossovers.


Yes, a pity that they did have some clues like conjugate capacitors,
but often spent more money on the aluminium boxes for many of their
Xovers than the rest of the parts.
Of course they weren't alone there, KEF's of the same vintage are
also improved by adding better Xovers, as are quite a few others
with good enough drivers to bother.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it
support really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had
"big bass"
but not really very deep bass.


That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a
12" woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with
less compression and distortion than smaller systems.

Trevor.


That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series
studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the
listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies,
these speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in
the way of
REAL, deep bass.

I was doing a lot of recording for NPR at this time (I was the
recording engineer for their "Jazz Alive" series, among other
projects). Anyway,
KQED-FM had JBL 4310's in their editing studio and I used it
extensively
to put together the "Jazz Alive" location recordings that I made all
over
San Francisco. Once I was required to record a pipe-organist at the
huge
Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill. I took the 2-track/15ips master back to
the
studio to edit it for broadcast (I wasn't a KQED employee, but the
producer was). I couldn't believe how poor the organ sounded on those
speakers and
was scared that something had gone wrong with the recording. So, the
producer and I grabbed the tape off of the studio Ampex and took it
to my
house to play it on my AR-2ax's. There was nothing wrong with the
recording (the bass was spectacular), but the JBLs emasculated it of
any real low end.

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a driver/cabinet
design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't add any.
--
best regards,

Neil



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Peter Larsen[_3_] Peter Larsen[_3_] is offline
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George Graves wrote:

That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it
support really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had
"big bass"
but not really very deep bass.


That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a
12" woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with
less compression and distortion than smaller systems.


Trevor.


That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series
studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the
listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies,


What do you call mid-bass? - spell it out in Hz!

these speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in
the way of REAL, deep bass.


What do you call deep bass? - spell it out in Hz!

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?


Actually there is no bass problem to fix and so little x-over x-works that
there is nothing that really can cause any, ie. no large iron-cored coils.

I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.


I just told you, I reckon I can pass as "anyone". Also just saying "the 4300
series" is absurdly wide. The 4310/11/L100 - basicly there are three cabinet
versions and two cross-over versions, the oldest one has NO components on
the bass unit, the improved version has a roll-off coil and the official mod
is to add a roll-off coil to the midrange unit so that it actually crosses
over to the treble unit instead of competing with it.

What could cause bass problems would be to play them in a non-rigid room
such as a controlroom that has been bassabsorberized for 120+ dB SPL
playback from 4340 or 4350 boxes or so and then also has a pair of 431x's
playing it almost open air, possibly free standing.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen








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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article ,
"Neil Gould" wrote:

George Graves wrote:
In article , "Trevor"

wrote:

"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you
described - really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive
crossovers.

Yes, a pity that they did have some clues like conjugate capacitors,
but often spent more money on the aluminium boxes for many of their
Xovers than the rest of the parts.
Of course they weren't alone there, KEF's of the same vintage are
also improved by adding better Xovers, as are quite a few others
with good enough drivers to bother.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it
support really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had
"big bass"
but not really very deep bass.

That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a
12" woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with
less compression and distortion than smaller systems.

Trevor.


That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series
studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the
listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies,
these speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in
the way of
REAL, deep bass.

I was doing a lot of recording for NPR at this time (I was the
recording engineer for their "Jazz Alive" series, among other
projects). Anyway,
KQED-FM had JBL 4310's in their editing studio and I used it
extensively
to put together the "Jazz Alive" location recordings that I made all
over
San Francisco. Once I was required to record a pipe-organist at the
huge
Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill. I took the 2-track/15ips master back to
the
studio to edit it for broadcast (I wasn't a KQED employee, but the
producer was). I couldn't believe how poor the organ sounded on those
speakers and
was scared that something had gone wrong with the recording. So, the
producer and I grabbed the tape off of the studio Ampex and took it
to my
house to play it on my AR-2ax's. There was nothing wrong with the
recording (the bass was spectacular), but the JBLs emasculated it of
any real low end.

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a driver/cabinet
design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't add any.


Well, that was pretty much my point. Mr. Kruger (and others) talked about how modern crossover design has taken these speakers from
their original poor reputation and made them acceptable sounding. My point was if those modifications didn't fix the bass, then there was little to recommend going to the trouble of retrofitting new crossovers as they can't fix one of the 4300 series most fundamental problems.
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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On Monday, October 7, 2013 3:20:24 PM UTC-7, Peter Larsen wrote:
George Graves wrote:



That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it


support really


good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had


"big bass"


but not really very deep bass.




That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a


12" woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with


less compression and distortion than smaller systems.




Trevor.




That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series


studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the


listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies,




What do you call mid-bass? - spell it out in Hz!


My definition of mid-bass shouldn't be substantially different from anyone else's. I.E. 40 - 90 Hz.

these speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in


the way of REAL, deep bass.


What do you call deep bass? - spell it out in Hz!


Again, My definition of deep-bass shouldn't be substantially different from anyone else's. I.E. below 40 Hz

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass


problem?




Actually there is no bass problem to fix and so little x-over x-works that

there is nothing that really can cause any, ie. no large iron-cored coils.



I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their


experiences with these speakers.




I just told you, I reckon I can pass as "anyone". Also just saying "the 4300

series" is absurdly wide. The 4310/11/L100 - basicly there are three cabinet

versions and two cross-over versions, the oldest one has NO components on

the bass unit, the improved version has a roll-off coil and the official mod

is to add a roll-off coil to the midrange unit so that it actually crosses

over to the treble unit instead of competing with it.



What could cause bass problems would be to play them in a non-rigid room

such as a controlroom that has been bassabsorberized for 120+ dB SPL

playback from 4340 or 4350 boxes or so and then also has a pair of 431x's

playing it almost open air, possibly free standing.


Peter, my point was that crossovers really wouldn't do anything to alleviate a lack of
low bass. That's almost completely a driver/cabinet design matter. Obviously, JBL was
interested in the "juke-box" region for these monitors because that's what most
rockers like to hear, and that kind of "bass" is centered around 80 Hz.


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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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"Neil Gould" writes:

-snips-

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a driver/cabinet
design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't add any.


Don't forget the room!!!

A small edit suite, with little or no treatment, could really wreck the LF. A little
larger living room, and you might just get lucky, especially with a few room peaks
centered on a few key pedal notes.

A little larger room and you could get a little more lucky.

In the 1970s I used 4310s, 4320s, and 4333s.

- the 4310s were pretty awful until the midrange driver polarity was flipped.
Apparently, this mis-wiring was a known manufacturing defect for some production
runs. The 4311s were slightly better, but I didn't use them on a regular basis.

- the 4320s were honky/snarky, but improved with soffet mounting in good rooms. I
heard several at Opryland. And while not overly pleasant listening, you could get
good mixes out of them.

- the 4333s were an amazing step up. Sweet sounding (though somewhat artificial),
and they sounded remarkable in a good room. First heard and used them at Kaye-Smith
in Seattle. They did require added bottom via room EQ if not in soffits.

My $0.02.

(I much prefer my SGM10Bs.)

Frank
Mobile Audio




--
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George Graves wrote:

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.


Neil Gould said:

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a
driver/cabinet design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't
add any.


Well, that was pretty much my point. Mr. Kruger (and others) talked
about how modern crossover design has taken these speakers from
their original poor reputation and made them acceptable sounding. My
point was if those modifications didn't fix the bass, then there was
little to recommend going to the trouble of retrofitting new
crossovers as they can't fix one of the 4300 series most fundamental
problems.


If you want church organ bass from the lowest pipe on the organ it is a
different 4300 series box you need, namely the 4333 or something with a LE14
in 3 cubic feet it. What the 431x will give you is the lowest note on the
bass guitar.

Don't blame the tool if you use the wrong tool, blame the operator for not
checking what the tool is designed to do.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen




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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article isition,
Frank Stearns wrote:

"Neil Gould" writes:

-snips-

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a driver/cabinet
design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't add any.


Don't forget the room!!!

A small edit suite, with little or no treatment, could really wreck the LF. A
little
larger living room, and you might just get lucky, especially with a few room
peaks
centered on a few key pedal notes.

A little larger room and you could get a little more lucky.

In the 1970s I used 4310s, 4320s, and 4333s.

- the 4310s were pretty awful until the midrange driver polarity was flipped.
Apparently, this mis-wiring was a known manufacturing defect for some
production
runs. The 4311s were slightly better, but I didn't use them on a regular
basis.

- the 4320s were honky/snarky, but improved with soffet mounting in good
rooms. I
heard several at Opryland. And while not overly pleasant listening, you could
get
good mixes out of them.

- the 4333s were an amazing step up. Sweet sounding (though somewhat
artificial),
and they sounded remarkable in a good room. First heard and used them at
Kaye-Smith
in Seattle. They did require added bottom via room EQ if not in soffits.

My $0.02.

(I much prefer my SGM10Bs.)

Frank
Mobile Audio


Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but understand that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass, smooth midrange and a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.

There used to be a small studio in San Francisco that used Infinity Gamma's as main control room monitors. I do believe that that studio had the best monitor sound I've ever heard in a studio. The guy who ran the studio told me that the only problem with the Gammas was reliability. The Irish "Straithern"- built quasi-ribbon midrange and tweeters went out all the time. They could be fixed in-house most of the time with a bit of soldering, apparently. and Infinity had a good supplies of spares and could rebuild most of them in a pinch.
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In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

George Graves wrote:

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.


Neil Gould said:

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a
driver/cabinet design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't
add any.


Well, that was pretty much my point. Mr. Kruger (and others) talked
about how modern crossover design has taken these speakers from
their original poor reputation and made them acceptable sounding. My
point was if those modifications didn't fix the bass, then there was
little to recommend going to the trouble of retrofitting new
crossovers as they can't fix one of the 4300 series most fundamental
problems.


If you want church organ bass from the lowest pipe on the organ it is a
different 4300 series box you need, namely the 4333 or something with a LE14
in 3 cubic feet it. What the 431x will give you is the lowest note on the
bass guitar.

Don't blame the tool if you use the wrong tool, blame the operator for not
checking what the tool is designed to do.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Peter, I think we're talking at cross-purposes here. II'm neither complaining (particularly) about a 40-year old speaker design, or about the incorrect application of tools. IOW, I'm blaming nothing and no one for anything.

I'm merely posing an anecdote to illustrate when I first realized that for their size, 4310s didn't have much bass. I was using the facilities available to me at the time and I found them inadequate for organ recording (although I had no real complaints about any of the jazz recordings I was editing in that same suite).

This whole discussion came about because several people said that modern crossovers could fix the JBL' s widely acknowledged poor sound. I made the point that crossovers can't fix drivers and enclosures that don't go very low in the first place.

There's no argument here.

Regards,
George Graves
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George Graves wrote:

Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but
understand that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass,
smooth midrange and a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


You said the 4300 series was no good, remember?

Kind regards

Peter Larsen





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Peter Larsen wrote:
George Graves wrote:

This whole discussion came about because several people said that
modern crossovers could fix the JBL' s widely acknowledged poor
sound.


"the JBL's widely acknowledge poor sound" - that's a "theysay" type of
statement. Who has aknowledged that what JBL model has poor sound?


I never much liked the 4311s, but I have never really used the newer
JBL monitors. Has anyone heard the new M2 models? There was a sort-of
underground demo at the last AES show but I didn't get a chance to
hear them for myself at all.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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George Graves wrote:

This whole discussion came about because several people said that modern
crossovers could fix the JBL' s widely acknowledged poor sound. I made
the point that crossovers can't fix drivers and enclosures that don't
go very low in the first place.


Bandwidth may well remain unchanged, while behavior around the crossover
point might be improved tremendously.

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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Frank Stearns Frank Stearns is offline
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George Graves writes:

snips

Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but understan=
d that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass, smooth midrange a=
nd a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


No, never did. I actually found it somewhat frightening that those big monsters
could deliver 130 dB into a control room. Yikes. Never found myself in such rooms.

However, the Imax in my old home town used what looked a lot like 4350s all around
the room -- though no doubt some different components and voicing for a big room
application.

As far as theater sound, they were quite good -- way better than the local megaplex
sound.


There used to be a small studio in San Francisco that used Infinity Gamma's=
as main control room monitors. I do believe that that studio had the best =
monitor sound I've ever heard in a studio. The guy who ran the studio told =


How was the room designed and treated? Were the monitors soffit mounted?

Frank
Mobile Audio
--
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"George Graves" wrote in message
...

Gary, don't look now, but your paranoia is showing. Nobody is "piling on
you".
Just because I am critical of some of your theories and some of your
experiments
doesn't mean that I'm attacking you personally. I'm not. I still consider
us friends
and I have jumped to your defense more than once here.


You have accused me of being like your clueless friend with the horrid
setup, making recordings for a system that has a huge hole in the middle. So
you are making judgements about me without any knowledge of who I am or what
I am doing. There is no defense for unwarranted assumptions. You are joining
with the Alrich class of court jester despite evidence to the contrary.

If I am successful with some more recordings with my various techniques in a
decent venue with this concert band I will send you a disc again. I have
tested it out last night with the new recorder and had some very encouraging
success. It is not a good enough recording to send to anyone because of the
AC noise, which I can't do anything about.

Gary


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In article ,
"Gary Eickmeier" wrote:

"George Graves" wrote in message
...

Gary, don't look now, but your paranoia is showing. Nobody is "piling on
you".
Just because I am critical of some of your theories and some of your
experiments
doesn't mean that I'm attacking you personally. I'm not. I still consider
us friends
and I have jumped to your defense more than once here.


You have accused me of being like your clueless friend with the horrid
setup, making recordings for a system that has a huge hole in the middle. So
you are making judgements about me without any knowledge of who I am or what
I am doing. There is no defense for unwarranted assumptions. You are joining
with the Alrich class of court jester despite evidence to the contrary.


I wasn't accusing you of anything, I was relating an anecdote about someone else, who like you, didn''t have a lot of experience, and made the mistake of recording for HIS OWN PLAYBACK SITUATION, rather than for anybody who might end-up listening to his recordings. Since this is what you seem to be doing as well, I thought that part or the story analogous to your situation, but that's as far as the comparison went. I thought I made that clear.

BTW, my assessment of your recording methods are neither assumptions nor unwarranted, Gary. Remember, I have examples of your recordings upon which to base these "unwarranted assumptions".

If I am successful with some more recordings with my various techniques in a
decent venue with this concert band I will send you a disc again. I have
tested it out last night with the new recorder and had some very encouraging
success. It is not a good enough recording to send to anyone because of the
AC noise, which I can't do anything about.


Always glad to get those from you.

George Graves

Gary



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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

George Graves wrote:

This whole discussion came about because several people said that
modern crossovers could fix the JBL' s widely acknowledged poor
sound.


"the JBL's widely acknowledge poor sound" - that's a "theysay" type of
statement. Who has aknowledged that what JBL model has poor sound?


I've heard many of them. So *I* say that they sounded lousy. In fact, all the ones that I've heard shared a characteristic sound, I.E. they all sounded similar - I suppose that's on purpose and probably useful to disparate studios sharing work.
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article ion,
Frank Stearns wrote:

George Graves writes:

snips

Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but understan=
d that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass, smooth midrange a=
nd a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


No, never did. I actually found it somewhat frightening that those big
monsters
could deliver 130 dB into a control room. Yikes. Never found myself in such
rooms.

However, the Imax in my old home town used what looked a lot like 4350s all
around
the room -- though no doubt some different components and voicing for a big
room
application.

As far as theater sound, they were quite good -- way better than the local
megaplex
sound.


There used to be a small studio in San Francisco that used Infinity Gamma's=
as main control room monitors. I do believe that that studio had the best =
monitor sound I've ever heard in a studio. The guy who ran the studio told =


How was the room designed and treated? Were the monitors soffit mounted?

Frank
Mobile Audio


As to how the room was treated, I cannot say. I was only there once. It WAS treated though, as there were sound absorbent panels interspersed along the walls and alternating with hard areas. The speakers were NOT soffit mounted, but sat on the floor about three feet out from the wall. When I was there, they were editing a San Francisco Symphony recording for Phillips Records, IIRC (Edo De Waart, conducting). It sounded GREAT through those speakers.
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

You are joining with the Alrich class of court jester despite evidence to
the contrary.


Yep, I point out what a joke your concepts are, and how foolish is your
ongoing attachment to them, and how arrogant is your failure to process
information from many truly experienced practitioners who are
professional listeners.

You are your own punchline.

Clearly the evidence supports that George Graves has done and probably
does excellent professional audio recording work.

That is something you should think about before trying to turn your
delusions into "theories".

--
shut up and play your guitar * HankAlrich.Com
HankandShaidriMusic.Com
YouTube.Com/WalkinayMusic
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George Graves George Graves is offline
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In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

George Graves wrote:

Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but
understand that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass,
smooth midrange and a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


You said the 4300 series was no good, remember?

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Tell, me Peter, are you just naturally contrary, or is there a point here?

No, I didn't like the sound of any JBL 4300 series monitor that I have heard. However, as I said very clearly above, I've never heard 4350's or 4355s.
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On Monday, October 7, 2013 6:58:02 PM UTC-7, hank alrich wrote:
George Graves wrote:



This whole discussion came about because several people said that modern


crossovers could fix the JBL' s widely acknowledged poor sound. I made


the point that crossovers can't fix drivers and enclosures that don't


go very low in the first place.




Bandwidth may well remain unchanged, while behavior around the crossover

point might be improved tremendously.


I don't doubt that at all.


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Gary Eickmeier wrote:
"George Graves" wrote in message
...

Gary, don't look now, but your paranoia is showing. Nobody is "piling on
you".
Just because I am critical of some of your theories and some of your
experiments
doesn't mean that I'm attacking you personally. I'm not. I still consider
us friends
and I have jumped to your defense more than once here.


You have accused me of being like your clueless friend with the horrid
setup, making recordings for a system that has a huge hole in the middle. So
you are making judgements about me without any knowledge of who I am or what
I am doing. There is no defense for unwarranted assumptions. You are joining
with the Alrich class of court jester despite evidence to the contrary.


But, you're doing precisely what is friend is doing: making recordings without
a standardized reference.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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George Graves wrote:

In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:


George Graves wrote:


Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but
understand that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass,
smooth midrange and a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


You said the 4300 series was no good, remember?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Tell, me Peter, are you just naturally contrary, or is there a point
here?


Yes, there is a point, your logic is sloppy and you go from "special case"
to "generality" and claim - in another post - that JBL's poor sound is
"widely acknowledged" because you disliked them. I am sure you can do a lot
better, you appear to be quite competent.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen





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In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:

George Graves wrote:

In article ,
"Peter Larsen" wrote:


George Graves wrote:


Have you ever used 4350's or 4355's? I've never heard a pair, but
understand that they were spectacular with really good, deep bass,
smooth midrange and a decent (albeit somewhat beamy) top.


You said the 4300 series was no good, remember?


Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Tell, me Peter, are you just naturally contrary, or is there a point
here?


Yes, there is a point, your logic is sloppy and you go from "special case"
to "generality" and claim - in another post - that JBL's poor sound is
"widely acknowledged" because you disliked them. I am sure you can do a lot
better, you appear to be quite competent.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen


Fair enough. I have known more than few recording engineers and producers from the "4300" era. The "rockers" seemed to like the speakers well enough, those recording classical and jazz were fairly universal in their disdain for the speakers. I should have made clear that *I" think they were terribly inaccurate and my opinion was shared by many. Since this is an informal NG, I didn't think it was necessary to be that precise in giving my opinion.
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"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Neil Gould" wrote:
George Graves wrote:
In article , "Trevor"

wrote:
"George Graves" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:
People have revisited 4310/L100s and found exactly what you
described - really pretty good drivers but too-simple and naive
crossovers.

Yes, a pity that they did have some clues like conjugate capacitors,
but often spent more money on the aluminium boxes for many of their
Xovers than the rest of the parts.
Of course they weren't alone there, KEF's of the same vintage are
also improved by adding better Xovers, as are quite a few others
with good enough drivers to bother.


That is really interesting. How is the enclosure design? Does it
support really
good low-end from these drivers? Because the original speakers had
"big bass"
but not really very deep bass.

That's pretty relative. You could certainly get deeper bass from a
12" woofer if you wanted, but they still go deeper, louder, and with
less compression and distortion than smaller systems.

That doesn't really answer my question. The original JBL "4300" series
studio monitors thumped out a lot of midbass. It was loud, it hit the
listener in the pit of of the stomach, so at mid-bass frequencies,
these speakers obviously moved a lot of air. but they had little in
the way of
REAL, deep bass.

I was doing a lot of recording for NPR at this time (I was the
recording engineer for their "Jazz Alive" series, among other
projects). Anyway,
KQED-FM had JBL 4310's in their editing studio and I used it
extensively
to put together the "Jazz Alive" location recordings that I made all
over
San Francisco. Once I was required to record a pipe-organist at the
huge
Grace Cathedral on Nob Hill. I took the 2-track/15ips master back to
the
studio to edit it for broadcast (I wasn't a KQED employee, but the
producer was). I couldn't believe how poor the organ sounded on those
speakers and
was scared that something had gone wrong with the recording. So, the
producer and I grabbed the tape off of the studio Ampex and took it
to my
house to play it on my AR-2ax's. There was nothing wrong with the
recording (the bass was spectacular), but the JBLs emasculated it of
any real low end.

So, my question is, do the modern, improved crossovers fix the bass
problem?
I suspect not, but if anyone knows, I'd love to hear their
experiences with these speakers.

Your experience is unlikely to be due to the crossovers. If a
driver/cabinet
design doesn't provide low bass the crossover can't add any.


}Well, that was pretty much my point. Mr. Kruger (and others) talked about
how modern crossover design has taken these speakers from
}their original poor reputation and made them acceptable sounding.
}My point was if those modifications didn't fix the bass, then there was
little to recommend going to the trouble of
}retrofitting new crossovers as they can't fix one of the 4300 series most
fundamental problems.


But easily fixed with active EQ. The sealed AR's have a slower roll off and
deeper bass, but actually *less* possible SPL at those lower frequencies
than the JBL's, and far less in the mid bass. Therfore the best way to fix
the JBL's of course is not by fixing the passive Xovers, but by tri-amping
them. Not so hard or expensive these days.

Trevor.


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"Peter Larsen" wrote in message
...
If you want church organ bass from the lowest pipe on the organ it is a
different 4300 series box you need, namely the 4333 or something with a
LE14 in 3 cubic feet it.


Yeah, but LE14A's in 4 cuft are even better. I still have mine :-)
I'd love to see those AR's play any low pipes as loud! :-)
Of course these days you can do better with active EQ sub woofers.

Trevor.




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"George Graves" wrote in message
...
Fair enough. I have known more than few recording engineers and producers
from the "4300" era. The "rockers" seemed to like the speakers well enough,
those recording classical and jazz were fairly universal in their disdain
for the speakers. I should have made clear that *I" think they were terribly
inaccurate and my opinion was shared by many. Since this is an informal NG,
I didn't think it was necessary to be that precise in giving my opinion.

--------------------------

Well it would certainly help reduce arguments. I have always favoured big
JBL's for rock and roll, but wouldn't dream of using them for a string
quartet! OTOH the big models are just fine for pipe organ, but not so the
smaller models. Just as you wouldn't use a LS3/5A for that either!
Horses for courses.

Trevor.


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"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...


But, you're doing precisely what is friend is doing: making recordings
without
a standardized reference.
--scott


OK, as I just told George, I have made the statement a few times here and
elsewhere that it ain't a recording until it gets played back, and you can't
tell what someone else that you send it to will hear on it. This could open
up a whole nuther side discussion, describing the sound of a recording or
the sound of some particular system.

But let's set that aside for a moment, and ask you what you are monitoring
on? What is your ultimate system?

Gary


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"Tobiah" wrote in message
...
On 09/28/2013 03:58 PM, Gary Eickmeier wrote:
Check this out:

https://www.zoom-na.com/

The most amazing recorder I have yet seen. I could get rid of my mixer,
multichannel recorder (Zoom R16) and my battery powered Phantom power
supply. It is a six channel recorder and full studio in a box!

Gary Eickmeier


Now that you have the unit, can you put some of this
into perspective now that you have had some limited experience
with it?

Tobiah


Tobiah - I think I lost the Email on which I described the features etc to
you. Might have it at work, but could you re-post that here from your
computer? Then I would like to go further into it in another thread because
this one is getting out of control.

Gary


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On Tuesday, 8 October 2013 17:22:28 UTC+2, Gary Eickmeier wrote:

... If I am successful with some more recordings with my various techniques in a decent venue with this concert band I will send you a disc again.


Gary, why don't you upload couple of minutes somewhere?
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Gary Eickmeier wrote:

But let's set that aside for a moment, and ask you what you are monitoring
on? What is your ultimate system?


I've already discussed that.

I am monitoring on a pair of NHT A-20s, a pair of Magnepans, and a pair
of junk Atlas whizzer-cone boxes, for different things. LEDE configuration.
Room is okay, it's not too live and it's very diffuse, but it could probably
benefit from even more bass absorption.

I tend to like the Magnepans but as I said earlier, they do not translate
very well to other speaker systems and I tend to use them because I have
a personal desire for a more distant presentation than the customers usually
do; I like to sit back in the balcony.

This is not by any means either a typical or a high-end control room for
classical work and I would not recommend it for someone learning to mix
and track. It is built to deal with some of my personal handicaps.

My ultimate system would have more to do with the room than the speakers,
but I'd pick something like the Masterdisc room with the Griffin monitors.
Francis Manzella design, very very clean room. Sight lines aren't very good
but the sound is excellent, and these days video monitoring is making the
need for good sight lines into tracking space less important.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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