[mcp6453[_2_]]

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to MP3? I
use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I can't prove it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot remember
what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000, and VLC.

Thanks.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 02 Apr 2014, mcp6453 wrote in rec.audio.pro:

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress
it to MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer
codec, but I can't prove it. In fact, TagScanner reports it as
Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I
cannot remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag,
TagScanner, foobar2000, and VLC.

Not all mp3s contain that info. If it does, MediaInfo can read it.

http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

[Be careful when installing - the installer contains foistware that
will try to get you to install other potentially unwanted programs. You
can avoid it by paying careful attention to the prompts when installing
and declining any offers you see pop up. You can also choose to
download the version without the installer and install it yourself,
which will avoid the issue.]

[mcp6453[_2_]]

On 4/2/2014 5:11 PM, Nil wrote:
On 02 Apr 2014, mcp6453 wrote in rec.audio.pro:

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress
it to MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer
codec, but I can't prove it. In fact, TagScanner reports it as
Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I
cannot remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag,
TagScanner, foobar2000, and VLC.

Not all mp3s contain that info. If it does, MediaInfo can read it.

http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

[Be careful when installing - the installer contains foistware that
will try to get you to install other potentially unwanted programs. You
can avoid it by paying careful attention to the prompts when installing
and declining any offers you see pop up. You can also choose to
download the version without the installer and install it yourself,
which will avoid the issue.]

From what I can tell, it does not show that the Audition file was encoded with
the Fraunhofer codec. I guess there's no way to know for sure.

Thanks for the recommendation. It's a useful little program.

[[email protected]]

mcp6453 wrote: "- show quoted text -
From what I can tell, it does not show that the Audition file was encoded with
the Fraunhofer codec. I guess there's no way to know for sure.

Thanks for the recommendation. It's a useful little program. "

Actually you can tell if Fraunhofer was used - by loading mp3 into a DAW and spectroing it.

If bitrate is 160kb or under, you should see a definite lowpass shelf at 17kHz or lower.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 02 Apr 2014, wrote in rec.audio.pro:

Actually you can tell if Fraunhofer was used - by loading mp3 into
a DAW and spectroing it.

If bitrate is 160kb or under, you should see a definite lowpass
shelf at 17kHz or lower.

Are you claiming that not other encoder can do that? I doubt it.

[[email protected]]

Nil wrote: "Are you claiming that not other encoder can do that? I doubt it. "

No.

But what I do know, in my setup, is that Exact Audio Copy produces steeply high-freq-shelved mp3s, where as iTunes' roll off smoothly up to 20khz whether encoding at 128, 256, or 320kb.

My iTunes and EAC both use LAME, although EAC's is a decimal point or two older version plugin than the one in iTunes.

[[email protected]]

Nil wrote: "Are you claiming that not other encoder can do that? I doubt it. "

No.

But what I do know, in my setup, is that Exact Audio Copy produces steeply high-freq-shelved mp3s, where as iTunes' and Windows Media Player's roll off smoothly up to 20khz whether encoding at 128, 256, or 320kb.

My iTunes and EAC both use LAME, although EAC's is a decimal point or two older version plugin than the one in iTunes.

[Nil[_2_]]

On 02 Apr 2014, mcp6453 wrote in rec.audio.pro:

On 4/2/2014 5:11 PM, Nil wrote:
Not all mp3s contain that info. If it does, MediaInfo can read
it.

http://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

[Be careful when installing - the installer contains foistware
that will try to get you to install other potentially unwanted
programs. You can avoid it by paying careful attention to the
prompts when installing and declining any offers you see pop up.
You can also choose to download the version without the installer
and install it yourself, which will avoid the issue.]

From what I can tell, it does not show that the Audition file was
encoded with the Fraunhofer codec. I guess there's no way to know
for sure.

I just tried it myself, and you're right. Saving audio as mp3 from
Audition 1.5 doesn't stamp the file with any encoder information. Other
tools I use do. I mostly use LAME, and MediaInfo shows: "Writing
library: LAME3.99r" for those.

Thanks for the recommendation. It's a useful little program.

Yes, it is! I just discovered it a couple of weeks ago myself.

[Shaun]

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to
MP3? I
use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I can't prove
it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot
remember
what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000, and VLC.

Thanks.


It's an MP3 file... it doesn't matter. MP3s are about 1/10 the file size of
the original CDA or WAV file stored on a CD. You're not going to get any
good quality from it. Try switching to a LOSSLESS compression CODEC and
then it matters. MP3s are garbage!!!! I never listen to them, even on my
iPOD.

Shaun

[S. King]

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:48:13 -0500, Shaun wrote:

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to
MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I
can't prove it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot
remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000,
and VLC.

Thanks.


It's an MP3 file... it doesn't matter. MP3s are about 1/10 the file
size of the original CDA or WAV file stored on a CD. You're not going
to get any good quality from it. Try switching to a LOSSLESS
compression CODEC and then it matters. MP3s are garbage!!!! I never
listen to them, even on my iPOD.

Shaun

Good for you Shaun. You've really added to the conversation. You've
shown your comprehensive knowledge of codecs and wrappers. And throwing
in technical terms like "garbage" really provides sauce for the discourse.

SteveK

[Shaun]

"S. King" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:48:13 -0500, Shaun wrote:

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to
MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I
can't prove it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot
remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000,
and VLC.

Thanks.


It's an MP3 file... it doesn't matter. MP3s are about 1/10 the file
size of the original CDA or WAV file stored on a CD. You're not going
to get any good quality from it. Try switching to a LOSSLESS
compression CODEC and then it matters. MP3s are garbage!!!! I never
listen to them, even on my iPOD.

Shaun

Good for you Shaun. You've really added to the conversation. You've
shown your comprehensive knowledge of codecs and wrappers. And throwing
in technical terms like "garbage" really provides sauce for the discourse.

SteveK


LOL !!.....

OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you use
192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3. MP3s are a
LOSSY compression algorithm meaning that parts of the original sound from
the source (most likely a CD) are removed when converted to MP3. When they
add the left and right channels together and then subtract; L - R (sum and
difference) you typically reduced the required file size of the music to
around 55% from the original size; you can get all of the original sound
back, Left and Right channels by reversing the math. Another example to
reduce the file size would be to remove a softer sound right after a loud
sound, because most people will not hear the softer sound anyway.
After the MP3 codec compresses the music file, you will loose enough of the
music that if played on a good stereo, it will not sound the same and you
loose the effect (emotion) of the music. IF you use a lossless compression
codec such as FLAC which is free to use and Foobar 2000 has a plugin for it,
your saved music will sound much better at playback, but it will take up
more room on the harddrive.

Shaun

[geoff]

On 5/04/2014 10:30 p.m., Shaun wrote:

LOL !!.....

OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you
use 192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3.


Naa . It's lame.

Now THAT'S added to the conversation.

geoff

[[email protected]]

Its for the birds
http://www.avisoft.com/compression.htm
Mark

[S. King]

On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 00:26:54 +1300, geoff wrote:

On 5/04/2014 10:30 p.m., Shaun wrote:

LOL !!.....

OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you
use 192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3.


Naa . It's lame.

Now THAT'S added to the conversation.

geoff

Thank you. We don't want to leave out any technical terms that might
prove useful later in the thread. From my POV, if I rip a CD or want to
casually listen to some tracks I've recorded MP3 is fine. As Shaun says,
there are better choices and memory is cheap. The real limit is more on
the playback side. The advantages of 24-bit/256 kbps are lost on earpods,
while riding the train. I've always heard that the Fraunhofer codec was
best. I don't know. But just hearing someone speak its name makes me want
to order a pint.

Steve

[John Williamson]

On 05/04/2014 10:30, Shaun wrote:


"S. King" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:48:13 -0500, Shaun wrote:

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to
MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I
can't prove it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot
remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000,
and VLC.

Thanks.


It's an MP3 file... it doesn't matter. MP3s are about 1/10 the file
size of the original CDA or WAV file stored on a CD. You're not going
to get any good quality from it. Try switching to a LOSSLESS
compression CODEC and then it matters. MP3s are garbage!!!! I never
listen to them, even on my iPOD.

Shaun

Good for you Shaun. You've really added to the conversation. You've
shown your comprehensive knowledge of codecs and wrappers. And throwing
in technical terms like "garbage" really provides sauce for the discourse.

SteveK


LOL !!.....

OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you
use 192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3. MP3s
are a LOSSY compression algorithm meaning that parts of the original
sound from the source (most likely a CD) are removed when converted to
MP3. When they add the left and right channels together and then
subtract; L - R (sum and difference) you typically reduced the required
file size of the music to around 55% from the original size; you can get
all of the original sound back, Left and Right channels by reversing the
math. Another example to reduce the file size would be to remove a
softer sound right after a loud sound, because most people will not hear
the softer sound anyway.
After the MP3 codec compresses the music file, you will loose enough of
the music that if played on a good stereo, it will not sound the same
and you loose the effect (emotion) of the music. IF you use a lossless
compression codec such as FLAC which is free to use and Foobar 2000 has
a plugin for it, your saved music will sound much better at playback,
but it will take up more room on the harddrive.


FYI, LAME (As in "LAME Ain't an Mp3 Encoder" according to the website
and manual), is not an MP3 encoder. It is a "clean room" engineered
lossy perceptual encoder that produces mp3 compatible files.

The only *true* mp3 encoders are the Fraunhofer one, and a few others
that licence the Fraunhofer technology. The Fraunhofer encoder is
optimised to produce its best results at 128 kbps constant bit rate, as
that is what the design brief specified. It actually sounds worse at
256k than at 128k.

For what it's worth, there are very few people who can tell a 320kbps
mp3 file produced by LAME from a CD quality file when they are compared
blind on decent equipment. Almost anyone can spot the 256k file on even
cheap equipment.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

[Shaun]

"John Williamson" wrote in message ...

On 05/04/2014 10:30, Shaun wrote:


"S. King" wrote in message ...

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:48:13 -0500, Shaun wrote:

"mcp6453" wrote in message
...

How can I examine a file to see which encoder was used to compress it to
MP3? I use Adobe Audition 1.5, which uses the Fraunhofer codec, but I
can't prove it.
In fact, TagScanner reports it as Lame.

I used to have a utility that was pretty good about it, but I cannot
remember what it was. I've tried iTunes, MP3tag, TagScanner, foobar2000,
and VLC.

Thanks.


It's an MP3 file... it doesn't matter. MP3s are about 1/10 the file
size of the original CDA or WAV file stored on a CD. You're not going
to get any good quality from it. Try switching to a LOSSLESS
compression CODEC and then it matters. MP3s are garbage!!!! I never
listen to them, even on my iPOD.

Shaun

Good for you Shaun. You've really added to the conversation. You've
shown your comprehensive knowledge of codecs and wrappers. And throwing
in technical terms like "garbage" really provides sauce for the discourse.

SteveK


LOL !!.....

OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you
use 192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3. MP3s
are a LOSSY compression algorithm meaning that parts of the original
sound from the source (most likely a CD) are removed when converted to
MP3. When they add the left and right channels together and then
subtract; L - R (sum and difference) you typically reduced the required
file size of the music to around 55% from the original size; you can get
all of the original sound back, Left and Right channels by reversing the
math. Another example to reduce the file size would be to remove a
softer sound right after a loud sound, because most people will not hear
the softer sound anyway.
After the MP3 codec compresses the music file, you will loose enough of
the music that if played on a good stereo, it will not sound the same
and you loose the effect (emotion) of the music. IF you use a lossless
compression codec such as FLAC which is free to use and Foobar 2000 has
a plugin for it, your saved music will sound much better at playback,
but it will take up more room on the harddrive.


FYI, LAME (As in "LAME Ain't an Mp3 Encoder" according to the website
and manual), is not an MP3 encoder. It is a "clean room" engineered
lossy perceptual encoder that produces mp3 compatible files.

The only *true* mp3 encoders are the Fraunhofer one, and a few others
that licence the Fraunhofer technology. The Fraunhofer encoder is
optimised to produce its best results at 128 kbps constant bit rate, as
that is what the design brief specified. It actually sounds worse at
256k than at 128k.

For what it's worth, there are very few people who can tell a 320kbps
mp3 file produced by LAME from a CD quality file when they are compared
blind on decent equipment. Almost anyone can spot the 256k file on even
cheap equipment.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Well... I didn't know that, thanks for the education! Apparently Sirius XM
and many other streaming internet audio sources use 128 Kbps as well and
claim it is CD quality, I do find that music from a CD played from a good
quality player sounds better than a good Sirius XM receiver, I'm using a
Cambridge Audio Tuner connect to a good stereo system!. Also Bluetooth
wireless audio uses 128 Kbps too and if you have TX and RX hardware that
uses the new apt-X Codec and Bluetooth Audio 2.0 driver for Windows, it is
suppose to be CD Quality. I have ordered the hardware and Hopefully
experience it in three weeks, I will see if I can tell the difference.

Shaun

[Scott Dorsey]

John Williamson wrote:

For what it's worth, there are very few people who can tell a 320kbps
mp3 file produced by LAME from a CD quality file when they are compared
blind on decent equipment. Almost anyone can spot the 256k file on even
cheap equipment.

What's really interesting is that sometimes it's easier to tell on cheap
equipment. I can tell the difference between MP3 data rates more easily
on Auratones than on the big full-range monitors with some source material.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Trevor]

"John Williamson" wrote in message
...
FYI, LAME (As in "LAME Ain't an Mp3 Encoder" according to the website and
manual), is not an MP3 encoder. It is a "clean room" engineered lossy
perceptual encoder that produces mp3 compatible files.

Yep, that's what they need to say to avoid copyright issues. :-)

Trevor.

[Trevor]

"Shaun" wrote in message
...
OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you use
192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3.

The person who told you that has never heard of 320kbs MP3 then?


IF you use a lossless compression codec such as FLAC your saved music will
sound much better at playback, but it will take up more room on the
harddrive.

Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious!

Trevor.

[Shaun]

"Trevor" wrote in message ...


"Shaun" wrote in message
...
OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you use
192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3.

The person who told you that has never heard of 320kbs MP3 then?


IF you use a lossless compression codec such as FLAC your saved music will
sound much better at playback, but it will take up more room on the
harddrive.

Thanks for stating the bleeding obvious!

Trevor.

I have read in the past that using a 320Kbps MP3 does not improve the sound
any more that bitrates of 192Kbps or 256Kbps, They claim it was a waste of
extra space. That was a few years ago and the source of this info was not
known but I have read this from several different websites, that is why I
didn't mention 320Kbps.
If someone is trying to get the best sound, it would make sense to switch to
a lossless codec to start with.

Shaun

[[email protected]]

Trevor wrote: ...
OK I have heard that LAME is the best MP3 encoder out there and if you use
192 or 256 Kbps rates you will get the best sound from an MP3.

The person who told you that has never heard of 320kbs MP3 then? "

And this raises the issue I brought up a couple years ago: That many of my mp3s encoded at 128kb sounded better than those at 160, BUT - inferior to those encoded at 192 or higher bitrates.

I suspect that many of my 128kbs were encoded pure Fraunhofer, and the 160kbs or up were encoded with WHO KNOWS WHAT?! lol!