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#81
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Laurence Payne wrote:
Fuse orientation. If this made a difference (in an AC circuit, for goodness' sake:-) there's only one explanation. An asymetrical waveform from the power company? (c: //Walt |
#82
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
In article ,
Geoff@work wrote: fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production, I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!), Um, equipment faults are not usually 'defects in production'. They are also anomolies that can develop of time as components age, mis-use scenarios stress components over time, a sudden mis-use scenario occurs, or some external agent causes the equipment's integrity to be compromised. Agreed. As a specific example: some time ago I purchased a military radio test set - an RF generator. Beautifully built, rugged design, in excellent physical condition. I tried it out once or twice and it worked very nicely. A couple of weeks ago I pulled it out, put it on the bench, plugged it in, and turned on the power. CLICK! My whole power-strip shut off. The ground-fault interruptor had triggered. I opened up the box and checked it out. Didn't see any problems. Reset the GFCI, turned on the power, and the oscillator started up and oscillated. Shut it down, closed up the case, turned it on again. CLICK. Ground fault again. Opened it up again, and found the problem. The outer contact on the fuseholder was bent a bit away from the body of the fuseholder. Under just the right set of conditions, it could flex enough to contact the inside of the oscillator's outer metal case, and create a neutral-to-ground short circuit. [Why they chose to put the fuse on the neutral side of the line is another good question...] May very well have existed from the time the device was made (to military specs, no less), or the short might just recently have developed due to age and stress and flexing of the wires. In most cases, no harm would have come from it - neutral and ground voltages are close enough together that there probably wouldn't have been a shock hazard. However, if this oscillator had *ever* been plugged into a three-prong outlet whose "hot" and "neutral" were reversed (and these are not uncommon), there would have been a nasty shower of sparks and the fuse would have blown. If the fuse had been defeated by a jumper, there could well have been a fire, or the person holding the case might have received a fatal shock. Fuses, GFCIs, and so forth are put into electronics devices in order to handle the improbable and unexpected. You usually don't need them. When you do, they can save your life and property. Deliberately defeating fuses, breakers, safety switches, GFCIs, and so forth... well, I think it's a really poor idea. 99.99% of the time, you get away with it. The other fraction of a percent, you end up dead or injured, or (perhaps worse) living the rest of your live with the knowledge that your bright idea / shortcut ended up injuring or killing an innocent person, burning down someone's home, etc. Facing a crushing civil suit for wrongful death, negligent homicide, etc. is another potential (and painful) outcome. My advice: don't do it. -- Dave Platt AE6EO Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads! |
#84
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
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#85
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
"Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop
speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either: *Chuckle* thread that I did the same tweak to other equipment, and the results were the SAME. That rules out your stupid attempts to rationalize what you don't understand. I just listened again to my preamp, before What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it. |
#86
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
But my local engineer or contractor HELPED me solder the jumper wire
across the fuse holder contacts? (Just kidding!). Thanks for taking the time to explain in detail the many ways I might fry using solder for a fuse bridge. Although honestly, I think your doomsday scenarios are a little far fetched and unlikely to occur (ie.: were talking about equipment thats over 25 years old; if there was a defect in production, I think 25 years is enough to flush it out!), On the contrary, it is getting just old enough for the electrolytic capacitors to short. BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on. But for the sake of the audience I tried to discuss the technical issue that you brought up. |
#87
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On 25 Jan 2006 12:28:02 -0800, wrote: Good luck finding replacement parts when it does start to glow. Feel free to throw some derogatory remarks my way too :-) By the way if you don't own the dwelling and it's multi-unit, you'll be paying for the damages when it does start the fire, hopefully only destroying property and not lives. We're getting sidetracked here. Safety is important. But catastrophic failure which would cause melt-down is rare. And anyway, the power circuit is protected by other fuses or equivalent contact-breakers. But remember that the house circuit breakers will let you run a 1500-watt heater or more. The amplifier could dissipate hundreds of watts without tripping the circuit breaker. That's why the designer included a much smaller fuse in the amplifier. My theory is that (if the effect was real) the original fuse in the amp. was getting old and had increased in resistance substantially. The comparison that is called for is original fuse vs. new fuse of same specifications. |
#88
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real,
what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? Was it accompanied by a change in the output voltage from the amplifier's power supply? How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? What was the nature of the change in the audio output -- have you measured distortion, frequency response, etc.? Have you compared old and new fuses with the same electrical ratings? Can anyone other than you hear the difference? |
#89
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
mc wrote: "Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either: *Chuckle* What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it. I believe you did suggest this, and many here were blatant about saying I did not hear what I know I heard. I don't know if that included you, I'm not going to re-read all of your messages to me. But I recall you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse. That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio works, because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment. Then instead of responding to this, you cut out that bit in your reply above and responded with a typically mindless retort of "chuckle". Which rather than showing yourself to be a great thinker, makes you appear to be a dizzy fool. BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on. No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out in mid-stream, after some truly dumbas fool among you got so shocked by the idea that a fuse can be audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to admit this could be true. Furthermore, how can something "probable" be "evident" and "evident all along" even? You're really not the brightest bulb in the box, are you? I admit I was putting you idiots on about having the fuseless amp in my baby's room, but that's it. I was serious about everything else, including the fact that I was asking about the risks involved of running an amp without fuse, because I found the sound much improved without it. But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses. I guess you could say I "forgot" that techies that hang around here are not audiophiles by any stretch. By the looks of things, you're just a bunch of old farts with "test benches", and excited more about the technical aspects of audio gear, than the fact that they are meant to reproduce music. I used to be that way when I was an idiot like yourself, starting out in the hobby. But that was a hell of a long time ago. YES, you people are a form of temporary amusement to me, ever since you started attacking me over my query. The first attack on me and all subsequent ones, was like having thumb tacks thrown at you by midgets. You want to say, "what the hell do these people think theyr'e doing?". But that doesn't mean I came here to "troll" anyone. I simply responded with the instant hostility I was greeted with on this group, in kind. YOU people are the "trolls", as I see it. However, even if that were true, I'd say with 88 responses in my thread, I'm a pretty damn successful troll. Even after demanding that fools with nothing intelligent to respond with stay out of my thread, it seems I still managed to "troll" that many of you, according to your groundless theories. So what does that say about you lot of silly old twits, that you can be so easily manipulated by someone who's never even posted on your newsgroup? What else do you think it says to intelligent and truly objective readers about how "objective" you people are, when you invent motives for me (the "troll" accusation), then declare that you all know this to be true, after providing no solid evidence of your claim? Now on the other hand, which one of you blithering idiots can call yourselves a successful audiophile amplifier designer? Thought so. Yet you find no qualms about mocking and deriding successful audio engineers, because even when they've proven their theories, you call them fools. That's what makes your kind -true- fools and pathetic newsgroup junkies. But for the sake of the audience I tried to discuss the technical issue that you brought up You didn't try to "discuss" anything. You just gave me your supposedly "expert opinion" about what you thought I had heard and why you thought that, and after I asked you to keep your lame placebo theories to yourself and find out for yourself if what I say is true, you ignored that, snipped it out and "chuckled" like a blithering idiot. Don't even pretend that you or the rest of your cronies are "objective" or open-minded. My theory is that (if the effect was real) the original fuse in the amp. was getting old and had increased in resistance substantially. The comparison that is called for is original fuse vs. new fuse of same specifications. Look Grimley, I already told you, this effect was heard under THREE different components; amp, preamp, cd player. That eliminates your idiotic theories about how I am not hearing what I know I'm hearing, because the fuse is old or whatever. How ****ing stupid do you have to be that I have to explain this three times to you? Besides that, the claim everyone is making against me here is that no way on earth could a fuse be audible. Therefore, if you're claiming I didn't hear what I know I heard, it should not matter how old the fuse is anyway. Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real, what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? "Measurements"? Are you serious? I'm not a gear head, I'm an audiophile, mate. This may strike you as odd for one to do this, but I LISTENED to the damned thing, you dumb fool. Has that ever occurred to any of you, I wonder? To actually LISTEN to audio equipment to determine what is and isn't good, since that's how it's designed to work? Geez, its like talking to a class of kindergarten kids around here. Was it accompanied by a change in the output voltage from the amplifier's power supply? Who says this change will or wont produce the difference I heard, and that the diff can be measured this way? But look egghead, if you want to take measurements, be my guest. Assuming that YOU are not trolling ME, all you have to do is perform the same experiment with a silver solder fuse and measure whatever your heart desires. How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? No, this is more of your crackpot theories to explain what you think doesn't exist and won't attempt to find out for yourself. I had been using the amp regularly for over 6 months. There are also a million other things I did to this amp that changed the sound and that aren't related to "capacitors reforming".... but God knows, I am not going to even try to inform you about those experiments, since I know enough about putting pearls before swine. What was the nature of the change in the audio output -- I can only talk about the changes in a subjective listening test. This was but one of many tweak experiments I conducted recently and it was a few days ago, so I cant recall 100% any more what the exact characteristics were, and both the paper clip and the silver solder exhibited different characteristics (but both were better than the original fuse). Speaking in general terms, "everything was better" when I used an alternative to the fuse. Resolution was noticeably higher, the music was more enjoyable to listen to. I'm sure I could have discovered another material for my alternative makeshift fuse that would have been superior to both the paper clip and the silver solder. But thanks to you jerkoffs on this group screaming at me about killing my family, my neighbors, and going to helll in a firey blaze, I never pursued this experiment. Not really because I was scared about dying in a fire or anything, but because the old amp is actually my wifes, and she has a strong emotional attachment to it, and I don't want to destroy it, if I don't have to.... Don't even THINK to ask me to do double blind tests or the like. I could not put it any clearer than to tell you I do not give the slightest **** about whether you or anyone here believes me or not. I did not come here to debate tweaks with dogmatic fools who think we reached the pinnacle of audio 30 years ago when they finished their engineering training. I'm only responding to defend what I know to be true (since my findings were attacked), and to say that any further "proof" at this point must come from you, when you decide to stop being lazy and conduct your own experiments. Although I doubt any of you chicken****s would have the guts to post positive findings on something like this in this group, with all your little boy comrades eyeing you. have you measured distortion, frequency response, etc.? Have you compared old and new fuses with the same electrical ratings? I only compared fuses of different ratings, not having two the same on hand. Nothing stopping you from conducting this experiment, though, or the ones on measurements. Can anyone other than you hear the difference? Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills. Instead of asking dumb questions like this, you can answer it yourself by subjectively testing yourself to see if there is any validity to it. But even if you can't hear a difference, that doesn't mean the difference isn't there; only that you're too old and deaf to hear it. However, it does prove the condition to yourself, if you are curious about my experiment. It may sadden you to learn this, but that's the best anyone can do in this hobby, kiddo. |
#90
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote in message oups.com... mc wrote: "Poor connection" has NOTHING to do with this phenomenon. Stop speculating on things you know nothing about. I never cease to be amazed at how wanna-be engineers and techies always either: *Chuckle* What is stupid about looking for a possible explanation for the phenomenon you say you observed? I didn't say you didn't observe it. I believe you did suggest this, and many here were blatant about saying I did not hear what I know I heard. I don't know if that included you, I'm not going to re-read all of your messages to me. So you don't recall what I said, but you'll insult me for it anyhow? *chuckle again* But I recall you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse. That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio works, Why on earth shouldn't I try to find explanations for phenomena that occur? What response did you want from me? Apparently, you're angry at the people who disbelieved you, and also angry at the people who thought you might be telling the truth and wanted to try to figure out how this strange phenomenon might work. Whom are you not angry at? because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment. Why not tell us a little more about your own results? After all, you are making extraordinary claims. Which rather than showing yourself to be a great thinker, makes you appear to be a dizzy fool. I gather your real hobby is insulting people. BTW, it's been evident all along that you're probably putting us on. admit this could be true. Furthermore, how can something "probable" be "evident" and "evident all along" even? You're really not the brightest bulb in the box, are you? It can certainly be evident that something is probably the case. For instance, right now, a member of my family has a temperature of 101 F and I think it is evident that she probably has the flu. (I.e., something is evident which implies a high probability of something else.) Where did you study logic? But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses. I hadn't, except for speaker fuses. Can you point me to some references? You *do* mean the incoming AC power fuse, don't you? YES, you people are a form of temporary amusement to me, ever since you started attacking me over my query. Obviously, your real hobby is insulting people. *chuckle again* Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real, what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? "Measurements"? Are you serious? I'm not a gear head, I'm an audiophile, mate. This may strike you as odd for one to do this, but I LISTENED to the damned thing, you dumb fool. Has that ever occurred to any of you, I wonder? To actually LISTEN to audio equipment to determine what is and isn't good, since that's how it's designed to work? Geez, its like talking to a class of kindergarten kids around here. But do you admit that there is such a thing as measurements, and that if you've discovered an unusual effect, measurements might help you understand how it works? Or are real audiophile amplifiers supposed to be designed and built without the use of test equipment? How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? No, this is more of your crackpot theories to explain what you think doesn't exist and won't attempt to find out for yourself. I had been using the amp regularly for over 6 months. There are also a million other things I did to this amp that changed the sound and that aren't related to "capacitors reforming".... but God knows, I am not going to even try to inform you about those experiments, since I know enough about putting pearls before swine. The insult density here is truly amazing. Statements about my alleged stupidity (etc.) are outnumbering statements about audio about four to one. Let's see whether this ratio holds up as you continue... (Readers wishing to keep track of it will have to refer to the message I'm quoting, as I don't wish to quote the rest of it here.) Can anyone other than you hear the difference? Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills. Blind test, or did she know which one was supposed to sound better? And how do you talk to her when she questions your judgments? The same way you talk to us? |
#91
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote ...
No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out in mid-stream, after some truly dumbas fool among you got so shocked by the idea that a fuse can be audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to admit this could be true. FYI: the newsgroup news:rec.audio.opinion was created specifically for discussion of "audible fuses" and other such dubious things. Perhaps you didn't notice that this is a "tech" newsgroup. If you had lurked for a day or two, or had done any sort of research, you would have known that your claim of "audible fuses" would find virtually no takers here. |
#92
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Richard Crowley wrote: wrote ... No, it hasn't. The "troll theory" was only trotted out in mid-stream, after some truly dumbas fool among you got so shocked by the idea that a fuse can be audible, they figured no one could be crazy enough to admit this could be true. FYI: the newsgroup news:rec.audio.opinion was created specifically for discussion of "audible fuses" and other such dubious things. Perhaps you didn't notice that this is a "tech" newsgroup. If you had lurked for a day or two, or had done any sort of research, you would have known that your claim of "audible fuses" would find virtually no takers here. Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this thread was a query of a technical nature, and that the question of the audibility of fuses was raised by some technogeek, not unlike yourself I'm sure, who had a problem with a small part of my query in which I mentioned this aspect of the fuse in passing. Perhaps you also didn't notice I pointed this out five times in this thread to others. Perhaps you also didn't notice that I wrote in my last message in this thread, I am not LOOKING for "takers", as you call it. That I could not care less which one of you fools does or doesn't believe whatever I or anyone says. As for "virtually no takers", there are about 90 responses to my original message. Why don't you take another look at what you just said, you stupid nitwit. Please learn to read before you comment or better yet, shut the heck up if you have nothing worth saying. And have a nice day. |
#93
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
mc wrote: So you don't recall what I said, but you'll insult me for it anyhow? *chuckle again* *Chuckle* some more. That makes you sound so clever, really. Listen carefully Chuckles: I didn't insult you for what you didn't say. I insulted you for what you did. I'm sure you have your own special reasons for insulting me. But I recall you're the one that suggested there must be a problem with my fuse. That, you reasoned, must explain what I heard. I then countered that you are simply a typical techie idiot, trying to find a reason to explain what doesn't fit all the theories you learned about how audio works, Why on earth shouldn't I try to find explanations for phenomena that occur? What response did you want from me? You're really THAT stupid, aren't you? As many times as I've made the point, I can't believe I would have to explain this to you... The explanations you are "trying to find" are all THEORETICAL. I told you 50 different ways, get off your lazy dogmatic ass and find those answers for yourself by trying the experiment. If the problem is you need someone to explain to you how to open your amplifier and replace the fuse, why don't you ask on rec.audio.tech? You'll get plenty messages telling you what an idiot you are for not knowing how to replace a fuse, and plenty more telling you their 6 year-old can replace a fuse. But maybe after 90 messages or so, someone might explain the procedure to you. Then you'll be on your way to answering your questions. Apparently, you're angry at the people who disbelieved you, and also angry at the people who thought you might be telling the truth and wanted to try to figure out how this strange phenomenon might work. Whom are you not angry at? I'm not angry at anyone. The problem here is, you and your RAT cronies are always too stupid to realize your presumptions are not truth. because they never told about fuses impairing sound quality in your engineering correspondence course. I then told you you could easily verify this for yourself, by performing the same experiment. Why not tell us a little more about your own results? I already did in my last message to you. You don't read English very well, do you? After all, you are making extraordinary claims. No I'm not. When established and respected audiophile amplifier designers support the fundamental principles behind the procedure I mentioned, there is nothing "extraordinary" about it. The only thing I find "extraordinary", is that you incompetent nitwits can go on for sixteen days and three thousand paragraphs, screaming about how wrong everyone is to "claim" they hear things that you can't find anything about in your very limited knowledge of music reproduction, while you offer not a shred of evidence to support your arguments, nor any willingness whatsoever on your part, to pursue scientific curiousity and reproduce the test. In other words, you and your buddies are all dumb, lazy mother****ers who have apparently grown so fat and stupid from being newsgroup junkies, you wouldn't recognize any new truths in audio if they were handed to you on a silver platter. And apparently, you're too stupid to figure things out for yourselves. I gather your real hobby is insulting people. No, that's just a sideline. I don't suffer fools gladly. It can certainly be evident that something is probably the case. For instance, right now, a member of my family has a temperature of 101 F and I think it is evident that she probably has the flu. (I.e., something is evident which implies a high probability of something else.) Okay, let me try that one out and see if it works: "It has been evident all along that you are probably an imbecile". Yeah okay, I guess I can live with that. But frankly, it never even occurred to me at the time of writing my initial post that the concept of the fuse having an audible effect was at all controversial, since I'd recently read on the net about other audiophiles talking about this aspect of fuses. I hadn't, except for speaker fuses. Can you point me to some references? You *do* mean the incoming AC power fuse, don't you? Yes the AC fuse, and no, I don't recall the exact search terms that lead me to where some audiophiles were discussing the topic of fuses sound quality; only that it was an audio forum. However, a 2-second search of the terms "fuse amp audible" on Google led me to this link below. Its news to me as well that you can actually buy audiophile-grade fuses. If you knew how to use a search engine, it would not have been to you. But I suppose if you knew how to work a search engine, you'd also know how to replace a fuse with a bit of solder wire, and you'd be able to understand yourself how this affects sound quality. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isoclean3/fuses.html Obviously, your real hobby is insulting people. *chuckle again* It wasn't a clever line the first time. Do you think that repeating it makes it more clever? Or that laughing at your lameass cracks enhances the funny factor? Did you ever wonder why at parties, the only person laughing at your jokes was you? Let me toss the ball back into your court. Assuming this effect is real, what can you tell us about it and what measurements have you made? But do you admit that there is such a thing as measurements, and that if you've discovered an unusual effect, measurements might help you understand how it works? Yes. Emphasis on "might". The problem with attempting to resolve audibility through objective measurements is, what do you measure, and how do you know what to measure? There are hundreds of tests you can perform on gear. What if the test equipment isn't sensitive enough to measure the phenomenon that empirical evidence confirms? In order to know exactly what to measure, you have to understand exactly what is producing the phenomenon we hear. In order to try to understand this, you have to measure. The two tend to cancel each other out. And what if the phenomenon in question can't be measured by any test instrument, because it isn't being produced by a change within the electronic spectrum? Now you're involved in psychoacoustic theory (and beyond...), about which I believe little is understood (relatively speaking), within the realm of music reproduction. For example, what if some phenomenon produces repeatable changes to our hearing mechanism but not our hifi system, but nevertheless causes us to perceive changes in our hifi systems? How the hell are you going to explain that with your test bench instruments? And if you can't measure it, how quickly do you figure you will conclude the phenomenon doesn't exist? I can't always tell if you religious audio zealots start out with forever closed minds, or if you close them so fast, you can't tell they were ever opened. How do you measure changes in mood, changes in the environment, changes on a molecular level, changes in the flow of electron particles, changes in the movement of the earth's crust? I am telling you with a straight face that what you don't know about the phenomenon of the music reproduction system, is more than what you do know. The smarter engineers realize this. The stupider ones, as found on RAT, are more like your typical teenagers, who think that because they learned something new in school today, they now know more about life than their mommies and daddies. Or are real audiophile amplifiers supposed to be designed and built without the use of test equipment? sigh If only you knew how tiring that 50 year old arguments can be, when there are always "new fools" in the audio world, that have yet to understand the fundamentals. I'm only gonna give you one chance to understand this, and if you don't get it then, don't look to me any further: there is no scientific measuring tool more precise, or relevant to music reproduction, than the human auditory system. All components in audio are designed and engineered according to a set of beliefs; let's say they are those held by the designer(s) of the component. This, to a great extent, explains why components sound different, and why some sound magical, and others like torture. It even explains why entire countries, are often thought to produce components of a particular sonic quality, as compared with competing countries. Test equipment has its place, but many limitations, and can only tell you so much. Listen carefully now: it should be used as an AID to actual listening, not in PLACE of it. Get it, Chuckles? It can be used to attempt to confirm or understand what you heard. But with intelligent audiophiles, its common sense to HEAR the phenomenon your studying, before you attempt to understand it with test instruments. You haven't done SQUAT but flap your gums so far, over the fuse issue. How long had the amplifier gone unused before you did the experiment, and could it be improving simply because the electrolytic capacitors are re-forming after a long period of disuse? The insult density here is truly amazing. Even more amazing... I haven't even STARTED "getting personal". If Krueger, the resident child pornographer of you RATs, ever shows some guts and addresses me directly, then you'll start to see "personal". Statements about my alleged stupidity (etc.) are outnumbering statements about audio about four to one. Let's see whether this ratio holds up as you continue... Well a least someone's keeping count. There's nothing "alleged" about your stupidity or your foolishness. If you want to see the ratio climb, say or do even more stupid things than you already have. Yes, my wife can. I also tested her today on the sound of the amp after deep-freezing it, and after a few min., she described the same sonic changes that I observed myself. And just like you and the rest of your buds here, she's not an audiophile and has no special listening skills. Blind test, or did she know which one was supposed to sound better? No, I never said which one was supposed to sound better, not before, during or after the test. Nor did I ever mention what exactly we were testing. However, I did mention after the tests were over, that "there was this group of imbeciles on a technical audio discussion group I've been engaged with the last two days", who claim that the series of phenomenon we just tested, and heard, doesn't actually exist. I get a kick out of that, every time I test a neophyte and they hear things you idiots always say can't possibly exist. The thing about neophytes is that they're usually too ignorant to even understand that there is a controversy about a phenomenon under test. The thing about audio techies is that you're all too ignorant to understand that real life doesn't begin and end within the pages of a textbook, or the limitations of a test instrument. Its a lot more complicated than your simple minds can ever grasp. In fact, every time I improve my system with some tweak or other, I think about you techno-clowns on these newsgroups and elsewhere, and I laugh and I laugh some more. I laugh because I know that if I said I did what I just did and heard what I just heard, you fools will always, predictably, insist to your last dying breath, "it doesn't exist". But I walk away always winning, because I have a sound system that sounds like real music. While you boys have something that no doubt, sounds like a Russian torture chamber. If you really think I'm going to spend my life trying to prove to fools like yourself that some phenomenon does exist, under the exact conditions you will accept as proof, you think way too highly of yourselves. And how do you talk to her when she questions your judgments? She doesn't speak to me disrespectfully, as I was spoken to by all the little RATs on this newsgroup, if that's what you're asking. I ask her if she hears a difference, and she tells me she either does or doesn't; end of story. So your attempt at making a point is misguided, fool. The same way you talk to us? Who the **** are YOU to talk? I came here looking for information, I was insulted right off the bat by you little RATs. One after the other. I don't see you whining to any of your RAT cohorts about the rude way they started in on me, do I - hypocrite? I don't get mad me, I get even. |
#95
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
"Laurence Payne" wrote in message ... On 25 Jan 2006 22:38:40 -0800, wrote: http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/isoclean3/fuses.html Aren't there laws against this kind of scam? Do they offer any details of the construction of these directional fuses? "Each fuse is tested to ensure optimum performance" !!! Ha ha ha geoff |
#96
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote:
All I'm asking is for information on what conditions would cause the amp to catch on fire A shortut caused by a failed transistor. A transistor WILL fail if its core temperature gets too high, CORE temperature. All known audiophile designs aim for heatsinks larger than average consumer designs because the cost is less of an issue. (ie. what exactly can go wrong and what exactly is flammable inside an amp) Insulation, laquer, pcb, radiated heat that ignites nearby objects, worst case a spray of melted copper that ignites nearby objects + hazardous gasses emitted. so I can do a risk assessment I trust you to be void of any capability to so do. and decide how likely the risk of fire is. At a guess, 0.8 within 5 years of operation with the output heat sink removed. If you understand how a fuse works yourself, you would be easily able to explain this, A fuse prevents too large current from being delivered in case of a shortcut somewhere after the fuse. other than simply repeating what you've read on a printed circuit board. Erm, themn folks here are them folks as writes what is on them printed circuit boards. Those that have written the "no user serviceable parts, refer to qualified service personnel" are their lawyers, same lawyers also no doubt put a full page of warnings in the manual for the amp. "Replace Fuse only with Fuse of same spec and rating" already is there", as is "Do not interfere with cooling of amp" and a full page of not-to´s in drawings with large crosses over for the illiterate. They have also, as I, seen an amplifier emit smoke for no obvious reason, which is to say that a large power amp is perfectly able to start burning, in which case the fuse will stop it by stopping the current that delivers the heat. TAke the amp to a qualified repairshop and get it made back into what it was ex works. If you want to actually improve it, then ask THEM whether it is possible to retrofit larger capacity, max 50 to 100 percent more, in the psu and increase the quisciescent current so that the amp actually gets a wee bit hot when idling with the cooling in place. Both tweaks may be possible, but understand that it may also be with any given amp that there are good reasons against them. Standard class AB amp supposed. Thermic runaway is a very real risk if quisciescent current is increased too much, but if the amp can run without cooling while idling now, then it is likely to be on the low side of specs ex works. Perhaps even asking them to set it correctly as per the service manual will be what gives you a real improvement effect. This based on the known fact that quisciescent current increases when an output stage runs hotter and giving you the benefit of the doubt. For sonic improvement the default advice with a pre-existing installation is: first get the loudpsekaers properly placed in the room, next fix issues with the room, next look into transduxer quality, and then, and only then look into electronics quality. //Walt Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#97
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote:
Walt wrote: wrote: Let me guess: It sounds much more warm without the fuse. LOL. No, I wouldn't describe it as that. Without going into minute details, the overall resolution is much higher. Have you tried putting a new fuse of the same rating in? Replacin a fuse with one with a higher rating is one of the certified ways of voiding fire insurance. Question is: Exactly what risks are there in running an integrated amp or a preamp sans fuse? You could burn up the power supply, or it could catch on fire. Put the damn fuse back in. Could you describe just what condtions would cause the power supply to burn up or catch on fire A transistor that for some reason fails. (I would not have thought this component to be flammable!)? I trust that you have not thought. As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem. Ah, good idea, the auto-incinerating amp, much better than planned obsolesence. The cooler transistors run, the better they behave. The ever so slight chance there is of warm up and/or burn in effects is related to capacitors re-forming in case they have been unused for too long. PUT THE THINGS YOU TOOK OUT BACK IN! - remember to add new cooling paste, if do you not know what that is, then let qualified service personnel assemble your amp prior to having to pay themn for also repairing failed components. Kind regards Peter Larsen -- ******************************************* * My site is at: http://www.muyiovatki.dk * ******************************************* |
#98
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
writes:
Tomi Holger Engdahl 25 jan 07:35 afficher les options writes: Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further (though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip overall...). I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse, especially if you are changing the main amplifier use. Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible or not, did I? You might not have asked the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible or not, but when posting this kind of things questions to the newsgroups, you should be prepared to also be ready to take the commends that doubt the general idea of your modification. I have gone to the lengths of describing the the dangers of running the equipment without any fuse. And given few words on why the general idea of running the equipment without fuse is bad, and does not have any considerable effect on sound reproduction. If there is any effect on the exhanging the fuse, then other changing effects around (mains voltage varitions, equipment temperature, RFI) etc. have much more effect on sound reproduction than that fuse has! My experices on the on this field are not just my beliefs. I have anysed the siautaion on my eariler posting based on well recognized electrical/electronics circuit theory. And I have also practical experience: I have designed and built my own audio equipment, I have repaired some of my own audio equipment etc.. I have operated the same audio equipment on my test bench with original fuze, with wrong size fuse and even with fuse temporarily short circuited with piece of wire when ruight fuse has been missing (typically in well controlled environment where the equipment is constantly monired..). There are some years on those experiments, but I don't remeber ever hearing any difference when changing the mains fuse to another or replacing with short circuit. Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it. I have also pair of ears. And I use them. I can decide for myself. You are free to make your won decisions, and we are all free in this open forums to make our own desicisions and pos them here if we want. This is a free world and open public forum. Since you HAVEN'T heard the effects of this yourself, do yourself a favor and shut your ****ing trap about things you know nothing about, next time you offer your opinion on something to someone. I haven't heard the difference on my experiments I have made on my laboratory table. And I have not heard your system so hard to say. I am free to offer my opinion on this forum. As free as you are to express your own. And I think is know pretty much in the things I talk about here. I think this there pretty many things in my home country and users of this discussion group who agree on this with me. If you did ever want to learn something new and not just repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to formulate your response here. I have conducted prety many experiment on many audio things.. Experiemtnally tested many things before believing them. I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect that you though you were improving the device by changing the fuse. aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of information you've learned about electronics. You have misjudged me. You don't know just how ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top engineer at YBA, Where have I said that that I claim to be smarter than the too engineer at YBA ? why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed, so I can have a listen and compare it? Name one you designed. Just to make it easy on you, I'll compare it to YBAs ****tiest amplifier. If you haven't designed anything better, then there's another reason for you to shut the **** up about things you know nothing about. I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance than changing the fuse. Wrong guess. I already mentioned elsewhere that I did the same fuse substitution thing to my other amp, my cd player, etc., it all had the same effect of improving the sound. How did the sound really improve ? Can you describe how did that removing the fuse help. Like I also said elsewhere in this thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already. I don't need to repeat the experiments. I have hear didfferences between different CD players, amplifiers, speakes, even between some cables... Changing the mains fuse to another has not made absolutely no difference on the sound heard on the systems. "Guessing" is what people did when they tried to explain why the sky was leaking, you blithering idiot. "Science" is what led the more developed man to experiment, find out where the truth lies, and stop the ****ing guessing. Why is why I will always be way ahead of the (audio) game than you and your RAT zealots here. I have done experimenting on many audio things. And on those experiements I have also learned how easy it is to fool your hearing by the beliefs.. Ever been in "blind test" where you just try to hear the difference without previous knowlege on the things you test... It is dangerous to run equipment without fuse or wrong size fuse. It can easily burn down your house. And if your insurance company finds out that you intentianally replaces your fuses with something else, they most definately will not pay any money to you. So if this gambling you made on operating equipment without proper fuses blows, you will need to start thinking what is to live without your house and things inside it and no compensation for them. And possibley killing/injuring/harming somebody else living on the house or nearby, and getting sued because of the illegal electrical modifications you made to your equipment that caused that fire! But I think the important thing here is, "Jesus will forgive me". Hey, if He can forgive a child pornographer like Arny Krueger, I'm sure he can forgive me for wanting to improve the sound of my audio system. I'm not worried about the insurance company paying out, since I don't have an insurance policy. I.m not worried about getting sued, since the lawyers would cost more than anything they could ever hope to get out of me. I'm not worried about killing my neighbors, since I hate my neighbors (they have a baby kid thats CONSTANTLY crying all the time - just shutting him up for good might be worth the damage to my property). And as for that property in question, well I'm currently developing a "volunatry simplicity" approach, and I'm not attached to material things any more. So maybe having my things destroyed is exactly what I need to free myself. Spiritually speaking. And as my dear old dad always said, "if you never gamble, you never win". That's your view. On my viewpoint what you are doing with your equipment is plain stupid and potentially dangerous! Even if it had some noticeable effect on the system perfomance (which I very much doubt), I think the risk/reward ratio is not good on your approach. That's my optinion. Hard to say. But there are real changes. As you know from other electrical equipment, they will not last forever.. usually fail within 5-20 years more or less... Maybe todays cheap **** gear, but both these SS amps are over 25 years old, and they don't look to be close to failing. Components do age! And you can't see that with your eyes. As I say, I've been running it a couple of hours so far and there's been no change. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago I had previously removed the heatsink from the output transistors in order to improve the sound, and there was never any overheating problem. You stupid! Now that's very rude of you to call me names like that. Especially when YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about. As we shall see below... Maybe I as a rude. Sorry on that. Usually you need to be a little bit rude to weak up people that are doign stupid dangerous things. You said that: "YOU'RE the ignorant **** who pretends to be an expert on issues that you clearly don't know what the hell you're talking about." Based on the postings you have posted here I think pretty much same about you. And I am free to keep my opinion until there is a reason to change that. Heatsinks on the output transistors are there for a very good reasons. The output transistors have considerable power loss and get hot. If you remove the heatsinks, then the transistors gets mugh hotter much sooner. When transistor gets hot it's parameters change, causing first poor operation of amplifier (worse sound easily), then starting to smell bad (your figerprints on the cases start buring...), and then transistors fail short... not always in this order. I'm sorry that reality has a way of proving the theoretical world in which you live to be WRONG you ignoramus, but you can stop blabbing now, because nothing you've said here has turned out to be true. This is what I try to drum into the heads of you dumbass wanna-be techies: when you have NO real-world experience of what you're talking about, I have real world experice. But you don't seem to believe that. and you just repeat by rote whatever the hell you've read in Popular Electronics, that does not make you an expert on ANYTHING. I don't repeat what I have read in Popular Electronics. I don't read that magazine.. I can tell you without flinching that a month ago, I took out the heatsinks in both the aforementioned preamp and amplifier (the amp had a particularly massive heatsink, and an equally massive output transistor array). Why? Because I thought it'd improve the sound. And it most certainly DID. In BOTH components. What was your initial jurgement on thinking why removing them would improve sound ? So that already shoots down your theoretical BS about "worse sound easily". I am talking on experience here.. I have expriemtned with transistor amplifier circuits... and run transistors without heatsik when they should have had one... and hard and seen effects that happen when you run them for some time... Burned few fingers and transistors back them. I also removed a wire that was screwed into the large output transistor array (soldered at the other end to the underside of the circuit board). I don't know what that was for (some sort of grounding I would presume), but I do know that removing it from the surface of the output transistor further improved the sound. Next, about the heat: there WAS none. I carefully monitored the heat output in both the amp and preamp after I took the heatsink out. There was very little, if any, warmth coming through the grill in the casing above the heatsink. Thats pretty much normal for this amp, it never got hot. I played music through the amp all night to test it out, it was fine the next day. I even touched the output transistors with my bare fingers after leaving both components on for hours. Guess what, dumbo? They were no hotter than warm. No "bad smell" (well, no worse than with this stuff already smelled like!). Can you tell which specific amplifeir you have modified ? So much for all your stupid bull**** about how they'll get "much hotter much sooner" and I will fry my amp. Been there, seen that when transistors fail. The only thing you wrote that was correct here, is that the parameters change when transistors get hotter (but NOT in the ways you predicted). I already knew that from experiences with my Class A amp. That's why I took out the heatsinks in the first place, genius. Well, Tomi, I hope you've learned something here about what you don't know about audio. And if not, then you're even stupider than I give you credit for. Nothing particularly new about audio that I would have not known earlier. Maybe I should have written my earlier posting in a little bit different format... less theory and more real world experiment results. The end of your posting gave a better picture on you. It seems that you have been pretty careful on your experiments, and know more on things you do that seemed based on the first posting. Sorry. It is pretty easy to get wrong impressions on the people based on their postins. Your amplifier if you are lucky might work some time without the heatsinks if you play at very low volume... if you use higher volumes or play longer time, it is very propable that sooner or later your output transistors fail! The hotter they run the sooner they fail! Yeah, yeah, blah blah blah... see above for why you are a presuptious fool, and don't know what you're talking about. Ive worked this amp for over a month without heatsink at loud volumes, day and night, never had a problem. Im so confident it has no detrimental effect on the amp, Ive already thrown out the heatsink. My concnlusion is that sometimes these things are added in order to prevent failures when used in a variety of ways, but just because theyre desinged in, does not mean they're always needed. That can happens on some equipment. There are amplifiers that designed in such way that there is overuse of all kind of things. Much larger hetsinks that are needed, overrated components etc.. just to be on safe side in all cases. And there are also amplifiers that are pretty much optimized to provide what is promised with close to minimal cost... Taking out parts in such design can cause pretty nasty consequences. And ive PROVEN they can do more harm than good. Lets see one of you crackerheads actually prove ANYTHING that youve been saying. So sooner or later I expect that your output transistors will fail short... this will cause quite propably a chain-reaction that would in normal case burn your amplifier fuse... Wrong again, chumly. If they haven't burnt out after playing loud music for a months time, then they're simply not going to (not for reasons of overheating, since they dont get that hot!). Feel lucky that you have picked such conservatively designed amplifier that you can take out the heatsinks, and still no overhating on your use. Surely you must tire of being wrong all the time... The only chain reaction I see is that when one of you posts some ignorant BS to me, it incites another to do the same. When you have removed the fuse, then in this case I expect you get the smome coming out sooner or later from your autput transistors, amplifier power transformer and/or your speakers. And possibly flames soon after that.. The only flames I see is from the RATs on this newsgroup because I dared say something in their presence that contradicts all of your inane religious beliefs.... -- Tomi Engdahl (http://www.iki.fi/then/) Take a look at my electronics web links and documents at http://www.epanorama.net/ |
#99
Posted to rec.audio.tech
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Tomi Holger Engdahl wrote:
writes: Tomi Holger Engdahl 25 jan 07:35 afficher les options writes: Did some experiments on the fuse of my amp... I replaced a 500mA 250v fuse with a 1.6a 125v fuse and found the sound much improved. Then I decided to replace the 1.6a fuse with a jumper made of a silver paperclip, and found the sound improved much further. Then I replaced the paper clip with silver solder, and found it improved further (though I'm less sure about the solder being better than the clip overall...). I doubt that you could hear the difference of changing the fuse, especially if you are changing the main amplifier use. Yeah right. You and all the other queenies on this group, who've gone to great lengths to attack me for this, because it defies your stupid old religious beliefs. There are enough of you shouting "You are not hearing differences, you are hearing placebos...", that you sound like a chorus of drooling imbeciles to me. But I didn't ask for your opinion or anyone else's on the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible or not, did I? You might not have asked the question of whether the fuse tweak is audible or not, but when posting this kind of things questions to the newsgroups, you should be prepared to also be ready to take the commends that doubt the general idea of your modification. Then if you're going to pick my query apart so you can attack me over the part you don't like where I mention that removing the fuse made an audible improvement, you should be "prepared to be ready" to have me call you an ignorant moron. An ignorant moron pretends to be an expert on something he knows nothing about, ie. the audible effects of fuses. This group is filled with such morons. I have gone to the lengths of describing the the dangers of running the equipment without any fuse. And given few words on why the general idea of running the equipment without fuse is bad, and does not have any considerable effect on sound reproduction. If there is any effect on the exhanging the fuse, then other changing effects around (mains voltage varitions, equipment temperature, RFI) etc. have much more effect on sound reproduction than that fuse has! LOTS of things that you can do to an amp have an effect on sound reproduction. Bending every single electronic component soldered to the circuit board to a degree smaller than can be perceived by the naked eye will have an effect on sound reproduction that in totality, is greater than the one of using an alternate fuse. That doesn't mean the fuse replacement tweak has no significant effect. I tested this tweak on several components, and I damn well know i heard a significant effect. Whether you can, I can't vouch for that. But I will say that they sell audiophile-grade fuses on the net, and if someone is willing to pay $25 for a fuse, I'm betting that I'm not the only one who can hear the differences an alternate fuse can make. My experices on the on this field are not just my beliefs. I have anysed the siautaion on my eariler posting based on well recognized electrical/electronics circuit theory. And I have also practical experience: I have designed and built my own audio equipment, I have repaired some of my own audio equipment etc.. I have operated the same audio equipment on my test bench with original fuze, with wrong size fuse and even with fuse temporarily short circuited with piece of wire when ruight fuse has been missing (typically in well controlled environment where the equipment is constantly monired..). There are some years on those experiments, but I don't remeber ever hearing any difference when changing the mains fuse to another or replacing with short circuit. It does not sound like you conducted any specific and controlled tests on whether the absence of fuse, or change in fuse type, had any audible effects. It sounds more like you simply jumpered your fuse bridge because you didn't have an appropriate fuse on hand. Did you go back and A/B fuse/no-fuse a few times? Since aged audio techies are notorious for having poor listening skills, you would need to do that a number of times before you could even hope to lock in on changes. Also, it would need to be more recent than something that happened a few years ago that you can barely remember. Unlike you and your cabal of religious audio zealots, I have a mind of my own and a pair of ears that go with it. I have also pair of ears. And I use them. Unfortunately, your pair of ears are not as sensitive as my pair of ears, as you say you can't recall hearing a difference when using an alternate fuse. Yet I, Yves Bernard Andre, and countless audiophiles (including those who buy high grade replacement fuses for their gear) CAN hear these differences, easily. There is even a review on high grade fuses in which the reviewer started out as skeptical as you are, but eventually found that alternate fuses did make a positive difference. You are free to make your won decisions, and we are all free in this open forums to make our own desicisions and pos them here if we want. This is a free world and open public forum. Seems not everyone here recognizes that, since you all seem to think that people need your mindless and baseless opinions before they can decide wether something is audible or not. I even have people here SHOUTING IN ALL CAPS to me, in a not-so-subtle way of offering their opinion on what I should or shouldn't do. And I think is know pretty much in the things I talk about here. I think this there pretty many things in my home country and users of this discussion group who agree on this with me. Which brings me to another point. Some other idiot here spouted the notion to me that the "majority of audio engineers" do not take the fuse audibility into account, with the implication that Yves Bernard Andre, a world-class audiophile engineer, is a deluded moron for using custom made fuses, because the "majority of audio engineers do not take the fuse audibility into account". There is an extreme danger with the kind of moronic thinking that goes on among you technophiles, whereby you believe an opinion to be correct, simply because your colleagues believe it, and it is supported by the "majority". Major advances in audio were made throughout its history, only because someone more brilliant than you people thought "outside the box", that your very narrow minds live in. If you did ever want to learn something new and not just repeat what you're told, it would have taken you less time to conduct the same experiment I did and find out for yourself, than it did to formulate your response here. I have conducted prety many experiment on many audio things.. Experiemtnally tested many things before believing them. I'll bet I have conducted far more than you have, in your lifetime. But if all you ever did was try to measure the conditions, your listening skills never improve. I think what you heard is caused memery by the psychological effect that you though you were improving the device by changing the fuse. aka "placebo". Yeah, I get it, Einstein. You're a dumbass ****wit who thinks the world begins and ends with the very limited amount of information you've learned about electronics. You have misjudged me. You don't know just how ignorant you are and how little you know about audio. Im sure you know more about electronics, but Ive forgotten more about music reproduction than you now know. But since you think you're smarter than the top engineer at YBA, Where have I said that that I claim to be smarter than the too engineer at YBA ? If you claim that fuses are not and can not have an audible effect, as everyone else here does, than you claim to know more than YBA, since he has tested this and even specifies special fuses for his amps. One of your colleagues, Arnold Krueger, one of the most ignorant and deranged audio techs that I've ever witnessed in my life, in this very thread, trashed this same engineer for his accomplishments. Why, because this supreme idiot called Krueger, dismissed this world-class engineer on the basis that he couldn't find any reasoning behind YBAs reasoning. This act of mocking, deriding and dismissing that which you can't find an explanation for is what is typical of audio techies on the net, and why you people are constantly scoffed at and disregarded by the general audiophile community. why don't you name the world class amp YOU designed, so I can have a listen and compare it? Name one you designed. You don't get it. I'm not the one claiming YBA is full of ****, am I? Either fuses have an audible difference or they DON'T. YBA says they do. You and Arnold Krueger say they don't. Which of you three produces world-class audiophile components that are very well reviewed and regarded? I quess that in real life systems if changing that fuse had any noticeable effect on the audio amplifier, that amplifier was not well designed, and turnign other loads on your house on/off would have more effect on the amplifier performance than changing the fuse. Emphasis on "I guess"... since that is mostly what you techies seem to be able to do. The other thing you people are good at doing, is coming up with rationalizations on why someone might hear a change in something; ie. "it was not well designed", "it was an old fuse", etc. etc. etc. Me, I don't have to guess, I HEARD the differences, and so do others. A tech from this group even emailed me the other day to explain that they conducted similar experiments on fuses and found them all to be audible. How did the sound really improve ? Can you describe how did that removing the fuse help. I did discuss this in greater detail in a recent post to someone else in this thread. If you're that curious, try the experiment again in a decent sounding audio amp, using a paper clip or soldering a wire bridge. Listen a few times, before you conclude no differences. If you conclude no differences, fine. That doesn't mean there aren't any, just that we have different opinions. Like I also said elsewhere in this thread, you wanna-be engineers always rationalize things you don't understand, because they don't follow what you think is true according to your religious beliefs in audio (and which often, isn't). STOP guessing and do the damn experiment for yourself, or shut up already. I don't need to repeat the experiments. So much for your scientific curiousity. Then you don't need to ask me questions on my experiments, if you've already concluded I'm full of it. Perhaps you're just trolling me, like the rest. I have hear didfferences between different CD players, amplifiers, speakes, even between some cables... "Even between some cables...". ROTFLMAO!!! That statement says more about you to me than anything else you've said about fuses. You are an incorrigible and predictable techie, you know that... Changing the mains fuse to another has not made absolutely no difference on the sound heard on the systems. I suppose next you'll say changing the mains cables has no effect either... I have done experimenting on many audio things. And on those experiements I have also learned how easy it is to fool your hearing by the beliefs.. Ever been in "blind test" where you just try to hear the difference without previous knowlege on the things you test... Yes, and back in the day, I also conducted double-blind level-measured abx tests as well; as a test of the test. In the case of some of the recent "cryogentic" tests I conducted on my amp and preamp (whereby I deep froze the gear), I found after warming it back up and listening, that the results (at first) were NOT what I expected. There are plenty of tests I conduct that do not meet my preconceived notions, which indicates the listening is not being subjected to any placebo effect, and being "fooled by my beliefs" as you claim. I can always describe the exact nature of the changes I hear, and I always ensure that this is repeatable (since changes can occur for any number of reasons - simply switching on and off your amp for a second can change the sound). Maybe I as a rude. Sorry on that. Usually you need to be a little bit rude to weak up people that are doign stupid dangerous things. I know. I feel the same way, when I see people doing "stupid things". Based on the postings you have posted here I think pretty much same about you. And I am free to keep my opinion until there is a reason to change that. You're free to believe what you wish to believe, and I have no desire to change your opinion on anything, or anyone else's here for that matter. But the fact remains that almost everyone in this thread who said I was full of this for suggesting fuses have an audible effect, NEVER TESTED IT. Religious audio zealots of the type you find on this group always love talking out of their asses, and always demand proof of others. What was your initial jurgement on thinking why removing them would improve sound ? You mean why did I do it in the first place? Desperation. They're very old components these amps and preamps but at the time, they were all I to listen to music with. They desperately needed some kind of tweaking, because I was used to much better grade of sound reproduction. I tried many ways to improve their sound, and while I did, I needed to take it to the "next level". Using a jumper over the fuse bridge was simply a "why not?" idea I thought of (without realizing I wasn't the first to try this). While it did take it to another level, I had to bring it back to the previous level, because I didn't want to risk destroying the amp, which wasn't mine to destroy.... So that already shoots down your theoretical BS about "worse sound easily". I am talking on experience here.. I have expriemtned with transistor amplifier circuits... and run transistors without heatsik when they should have had one... and hard and seen effects that happen when you run them for some time... Burned few fingers and transistors back them. As I mentioned elsewhere, I touched the transistors of this amp after running it without a heatsink all night, and never burned my fingers. Some heatsinks it appears, are redundant. Can you tell which specific amplifeir you have modified ? Its a Technics, and I mentioned the model to someone else in this thread. Nothing particularly new about audio that I would have not known earlier. Maybe I should have written my earlier posting in a little bit different format... less theory and more real world experiment results. I think I would have responded better to that. The end of your posting gave a better picture on you. It seems that you have been pretty careful on your experiments, and know more on things you do that seemed based on the first posting. Sorry. It is pretty easy to get wrong impressions on the people based on their postins. Tell me about it! Although I don't have an engineering background, people here told me I don't even have any concept of what a fuse is for or what it does in an amp, and that their 12 year old knows more about amps and fuses than I do (which means I really didn't learn much in the last 26 years as an audiophile and electronics tinkerer). I might have been insulted by that, if the poster wasn't such a complete idiot. In another example, I've been confirmed 100% by the people on this board to be a "troll" and they say "trolling" is the only reason I posted here, when that is complete and utter bull****. Funny how one person here spews some piece of bull****, and all the little sheep follow along and believe it true. That can happens on some equipment. There are amplifiers that designed in such way that there is overuse of all kind of things. Much larger hetsinks that are needed, overrated components etc.. just to be on safe side in all cases. Exactly my conclusion; avoids unneecssary lawsuits. I don't see the problem if you have an old amp that ain't worth much, and you experiment on it. Because of "overdesign" and because I believe in the concept of minimalism in audio, this is how I learn what does and doesn't work, and then I apply it to my GOOD gear. Of course, I'm not insane, so I won't do things I believe will cause undue damage. And there are also amplifiers that are pretty much optimized to provide what is promised with close to minimal cost... Taking out parts in such design can cause pretty nasty consequences. I know, which is why I'd never remove the heatsink in my Class A amp... |
#101
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
jakdedert wrote:
wrote: I know, which is why I'd never remove the heatsink in my Class A amp... Oh for gaud's sake. Haven't you gotten enough mileage out of this troll yet? Ya gotta hand it to him for stamina, though. Or maybe he has one of these: http://makeashorterlink.com/?E2253598C P.S. Your post makes 100. Congratulations to Bob on making a century. //Walt |
#102
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
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#103
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote in message oups.com... Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this thread was a query of a technical nature, For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten geoff |
#104
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Geoff@work wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this thread was a query of a technical nature, For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten geoff That would be rec.audio.tech.head-start in our school district I'm waiting to see if he spontaneously combusts with all the energy he expends. Poof there went his keyboard :-) |
#105
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Geoff@work wrote: wrote in message oups.com... Perhaps YOU didn't notice, simple Simon, that my original post in this thread was a query of a technical nature, For that level of tech question you needed rec.audio.tech.kindergarten geoff I'm sure the kindergarten crowd would have done better than you. It took about 75 posts from you geniuses before anyone actually answered my "difficult tech question". ROTFLMAO! Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree from, the back of a cereal box? |
#106
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Per Stromgren wrote: On 25 Jan 2006 13:17:59 -0800, wrote: If there isn't enough here for me to explain how and why you and your zealot buddies are imbeciles, please let me know, and I'll elaborate further. Ive really only touched the surface of the extent of what fools you people are. Yes, please! Go on, I'm all ears! :-) Oh. That explains why you have nothing between them. Are you playing games again? Where the **** in this thread has any of you idiots "proven over and over again" I did not say "in this thread" now, did I? Of course not, because that would have been the only relevant thing to say that makes any sense. Who ever said you had any? Had you taken the time, of which I'm sure you have lots taking into account the number of words you mus type to tell us what you think of us, to read RAT for a while, you would have seen very many good technical discussions. And what the **** exactly does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Your argument is about as irrelevant as you are, as an audio engineer, and as an audio debater. Interesting though, that you just can't seem to stay away from my thread. You're the newsgroup junkie... I'm the fix. Don't forget your pellet, little RAT..... ;-) |
#107
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote in message
oups.com Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree from, the back of a cereal box? How can fuses be audible when whole amps are inaudible? |
#108
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#109
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote:
wrote: Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree from, the back of a cereal box? Over 100 posts, and you and your good buddy Yves have yet to back up your assertions about fuses being audible. When did I say that André was my "good buddy"? Let's see you back up that assertion with facts, you ignorant fart. Secondly, everyone here including you is pretending to be an audio expert, and all have asserted that fuses are inaudible. Therefore the burden of proof is upon you techie clowns. Show it or shut up already, **** for brains. Where did you get your degree, from a label off a rotting wedge of cheap brie? I'm not French, but your racism towards the French is well noted, Dick-head. Secondly, I never claimed I had a degree in engineering, you presumptious ****wit. If you ever get any one of your stupid ****ing blind guesses right, send me a fax and let me know. |
#110
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Yup, that'll do it. I was wondering when you were going gather up enough guts to show your fat ****ing face to me, and address me directly. Now I wonder how long it will take before you declare yourself the winner of this debate and run away & troll "safer" posters in the rest of the audio newsgroups. Assuming you're not just going to **** in your pants, whine and run away, I can't wait to see what your anticipated "debating trick" will be... - Are you going to add me to the list of those responsible for putting all the child pornography you collect on your hard drive, you fat little pervert? - Are you going to "prove" a negative by putting out some stupid ****witted Kruegerian claim of yours, like if I don't talk out loud about funnels, that "obviously" means I'm using my asshole to dump stuff in jars? (although I have no doubt that that's your preferred canning method...). - What's the FIRST lie that you're going to trot out, I wonder? Will it be a lie about me, or a lie about audio? Let's see!... First, I have a serious question for you: Did anyone ever tell you that you look like a fat German **** on his way to a disco in Munich? I just listened to an hour's worth of debate with you and Atkinson. You sound like a bitter version of Bill Gates, but with a lot more neuroses in your persona. And in that debate, you made the same stupid claim about amps all sounding the same. The entire audience then laughed at you. Just as I'm doing right now, Krueger.... Okay....1....2....3.... GO! Hit me with your best! |
#111
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#112
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote:
wrote: Over 100 posts, and not one of you clowns has yet to back up your assertions about fuses being inaudible. Where did you get your degree from, the back of a cereal box? Over 100 posts, and you and your good buddy Yves have yet to back up your assertions about fuses being audible. Where did you get your degree, from a label off a rotting wedge of cheap brie? You must laughed your ass silly thinking of how witty that sounded to you. I guess they forgot to inform you: techies have no imagination needed for refined wit. Which is why the best you dimwitted freaks can come up with is lame IKYABWAI's. For the rest of you, the following post from our cheese-eating frog- ass kissin' friend was found on another newsgroup. It seems we have a trend here? Subject: Microwave oven went KAPUT! What went wrong? Newsgroup: sci.electronics.repair Author: Bob Ladbury My wife just toasted a couple of rice crackers and cheese (on a regular plate) in our Samsung microwave oven. The thing seemed to have caught on fire inside the oven, but as there was no metal on any of the food or plate, I don't think that caused it. There was a wild flash, buzzing noises, then before I had the chance to run to the circuit breaker, things died down... The man's a gawdam firebug.! Don't let him near anything with a power cord in your house! First off, I allowed my brother to use my account; so that's stupid presumption no. 59 on your part. ("Cheese-eating" would be no. 60 and "Frog-ass kissing" is 61). Now according to your idiot logic, if someone's oven proves to be defective, that means they're personally responsible for that. You see, that's the same kind of dumbass twisted logic you and the other RATolas apply to audio. Whatever you presume is true, is then true. If a majority of you fools believe somethign to be be true, you then declare it to be true beyond a doubt; no proof necessary. And you pseudo-engineer wannabe fools pretend to stand behind the scruples of science?! You make me laugh... Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat lardass is hiding.... |
#113
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
wrote in message
oups.com... wrote: wrote: Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat lardass is hiding.... Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further communication. Grow up, Stuart Welwood 6 sigma |
#114
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Stuart Welwood wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... wrote: wrote: Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat lardass is hiding.... Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further communication. Grow up, Me personally, I am enjoying his humor! I look forward to reading his replies! Love it!! I know that I have been taken to task in the past because I said I could hear a difference in my amps in my system. The same with pre-amps. Wires? Well, I have heard differences in *some*, but not most (how MIT shotgunned sounded worse in my system than the Monster Powerline 2 and Interlink Reference). I have not had the "luxury" to hear the super priced Nordost, MIT's, wires with batteries, wires within vacuums, and others. I would relish the chance to say "wire is wire and it all sounds the same because I actually heard them for myself". |
#115
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem
attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then it's frickin' hilarious! But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail. To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said, It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house and its once-living occupants. As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason) should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the like. Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like that once for a custom application. Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident). |
#116
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Karl Uppiano wrote: What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem attacks and insults. It is all very funny until someone loses an eye. Then it's frickin' hilarious! But to answer the title question, it is *not* unsafe to operate an amplifier with no fuse as long as everything is working properly, and if you are willing to accept the risk of severe damage and fire if something does fail. To be honest, no audio equipment that I have owned in the past 30 years has ever blown a line fuse, so the risk is probably very low. That being said, It is cheaper to replace a blown fuse and a shorted output transistor or a filter capacitor than it is to replace the original failed part *and* a power transformer, or an entire circuit board with traces burned off, or an amplifier with capacitor spew all over the inside -- or an incinerated house and its once-living occupants. As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason) should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the like. Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like that once for a custom application. Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident). I have actually had an amplifier that was blowing line fuses (2). Stopped at that point and had it repaired, rectifier circuit had a dead short to ground. Thank God it had a grounded cord set. My foil hat is Paul Revere style:-) had a dead shot |
#117
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Karl Uppiano wrote: What a sad state this thread has degenerated to. Nothing but ad-hominem attacks and insults. WTF are you talking about "degenerated to"? I was attacked with ad hominem insults from the very beginning, and not a single RATter ever proved a single argument against me. As for how the line fuse will affect the sound, my electronic design experience suggests that nothing in the primary circuit (within reason) should have any perceptible effect on the sound if the power supply is properly designed and is adequate to the task. The "within reason" part refers to blackouts, brownouts, defective switches, defective fuses and the like. "Should"... techie translation for "does". Fuses in the audio path have been known to cause trouble, and are generally to be avoided. I have seen some amplifier designs with speaker fuses inside the feedback loop so that the amplifier will compensate for any nonlinearities or losses in the fuse itself. I designed an amplifier like that once for a custom application. Beyond that, we can all put on our foil hats and say that there is no scientific explanation for the phenomenon -- it just "is". However, if we can't characterize it, then engineering is a waste of time, and designing a good sounding amplifier is simply a mystic art (or an accident). And yet companies like YBA perform this mystic art on a regular basis.... |
#118
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
Stuart Welwood wrote: wrote in message oups.com... wrote: wrote: Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat lardass is hiding.... Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further communication. Considering the fact that we didn't communicate and I don't give a **** about "communicating with you" in the first place, I take it you're speaking on behalf of that fat child-pornography collecting freak you call Arny Krueger. If you're his response to my call for a debate on the troll's attack against me, he's even more pathetic than I gave him credit for. Stop wasting time, and BRING THAT FAT LARDASS KRUEGER TO ME. I have a size 11 boot that I think will fit nicely up his fat German asshole. Grow up, Look in a mirror lately, little Stewie? |
#119
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
TonyP wrote: Stuart Welwood wrote: wrote in message oups.com... wrote: wrote: Okay, you've proven what an imbecile you are, ratface. You can shut up now, and bring out your beloved Krueger troll, from wherever the fat lardass is hiding.... Sir, you clearly have a personal problem and are not worth any further communication. Grow up, Me personally, I am enjoying his humor! I look forward to reading his replies! Love it!! Okay, I wasn't feeling a lot of love here, but two seconds before I was going to levae for good, you've convinced me to stay. For good. Anyone have a problem with me but yet can't seem to tear yourselves away from my thread(s), I suggest you take it up with TonyP. And you can also kiss my ass, while you're at it. I know that I have been taken to task in the past because I said I could hear a difference in my amps in my system. The same with pre-amps. Wires? Well, I have heard differences in *some*, but not most (how MIT shotgunned sounded worse in my system than the Monster Powerline 2 and Interlink Reference). I have not had the "luxury" to hear the super priced Nordost, MIT's, wires with batteries, wires within vacuums, and others. I would relish the chance to say "wire is wire and it all sounds the same because I actually heard them for myself". Any idiot who is brave enough to display his stupidity to the entire world by stating with a straight face that amplifiers sound the same (regardless of whether they are poorly or well designed, in good condition or in disrepair), has, I figure, at least 3 problems: 1) They're hopeless imbeciles 2) They're as deaf as a doorknob 3) They're newsgroup junkies addicted to rec.audio.tech Thus, they're worth making fun of.... |
#120
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How safe operating an amp with no fuse?
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