"Forwarder" wrote in message
.. .
dave weil wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:09:11 GMT, wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:09:24 GMT, wrote:


If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a Halcro
you'd
discover how much alike they sound.

Please tell us about the blind comparisons of those two amps that you
have done.

Or, alternately, point us to such a test that anyone has done
regarding those two brands.

TIA.

You supply the Halcro equipment and I'll bring the Yamaha, or whatever
reciever I think will be able to compete.


Oh, I see. You HAVEN'T done any blind comparisons or know of any that
have been done.

How can you make a statement like that, then?


Because he damn well knows that those tests are designed to make different
amps (cd players, cables, etc) sound the same.

I "know" no such thing, that is simply what the facts keep showing.
They also show that when these things are different enough, people do detect
those differences in DBT.


But in this world of cross brand, price, quality, design UNIVERSAL
sameness, only the different models of QSC amps shine through. So much
so that mickeymickmickey is able to say:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."

Some of them are different in their FR enough that they might well be
perceived in a DBT.



AND when it comes to QSC!!, you suddenly dont need to triple or double
blind yourself. Just "listening to" them is sufficient... I quote, yet
again:

Depends on the application the amp is designed for and the kind of amp it
is.

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different. Also, some of their amps rollof the HF by as much as 3 dB, so a
person with very good HF hearing would be able to hear a difference, other
QSC amps are flat to within .2dB. Compare the latter with any other
consumer amp and see if you hear a difference.

The person making the comments, never stated which amp they listened to,
making the comments meaningless.

Mostly the condemnation of the QSC amp came from someone who had not
bothered to use any sort of control like level matching or quick swithcing,
so we'll never know anything for sure about what the amp sounded like.




This man is bumping into tables, ant hills, his own prejudices, his own
dishonesty, his own idiocy.. Hard to beleive how anyone can be this
rock-bottom ultra dense stupid packed into blackhole stupid.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:50:11 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You supply the Halcro equipment and I'll bring the
Yamaha, or whatever reciever I think will be able to
compete.

Yet another smokescreen play by Weil. Since Halcros don't show up very often
in local garage sales, there's not much chance of him being able to listen
to any, either.

Let's remember what the claim was:

If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs.
a Halcro you'd discover how much alike they sound.

Now, if ANYONE is guilty of a smokescreen, it's Arnold. I asked about
the results of such a blind comparison. Mike says, by default, that
he's never done such a comparison or knows of a result that he can
quote (he may not have even HEARD a Halcro, for all I know). Then
Arnold comes in talking about how rare one of the components is. This,
of course, has nothing to do with the claim.

Apparently, now you don't even have to DO dbts, you just have to talk
about them.

Welll then, here's a counterclaim that's just as verifiable as Mike's.
If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a
Halcro, you'd discover how different they sound.

The fact that I've never heard a Halcro apparently doesn't matter.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

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"Clyde Slick" wrote in message
.. .

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"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 21:09:11 GMT, wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
om...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 19:09:24 GMT, wrote:

If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a
Halcro
you'd
discover how much alike they sound.

Please tell us about the blind comparisons of those two amps that you
have done.

Or, alternately, point us to such a test that anyone has done
regarding those two brands.

TIA.

You supply the Halcro equipment and I'll bring the Yamaha, or whatever
reciever I think will be able to compete.

Oh, I see. You HAVEN'T done any blind comparisons or know of any that
have been done.

How can you make a statement like that, then?

Because it's generally true, amplifers tend to sound alike.


because you 'think' they do.
Just another expectation effect.


No, it's because there's overwhelming evidence in support of that fact.
Amps sound differnt when and only when there is clipping, or sufficient
deviations from flat frequency response to be audible, or some other form
of distortion is audible. Such amps are the exception and not the rule.


There is no such overwhelming evidence. Not that would apply
to any two particular amps. Not that would apply to any person or
group of people who never took any comparison test. Not even that
would apply to any of the few people who have taken such test comparing
any other amps but the 2 in question, And, not even applying
to any people who participated in any tests of the 2 amps in question,
NOT THAT ANYONE HAS.

you have no idea what differences any other person might perceive.
You only have an idea as waht YOU might or might not hear, because
you are besotten with expectation effects. You don't 'know',
you only 'expect'.



--
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"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to listen to a so
called class H amp over a period of some years and found it be as good
sounding as any amp I'd ever heard before.

Still nothing affects what one hears nearly as much as speakers and the room
they are in.

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:50:11 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

You supply the Halcro equipment and I'll bring the
Yamaha, or whatever reciever I think will be able to
compete.

Yet another smokescreen play by Weil. Since Halcros don't show up very
often
in local garage sales, there's not much chance of him being able to listen
to any, either.

Let's remember what the claim was:

If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs.
a Halcro you'd discover how much alike they sound.

Now, if ANYONE is guilty of a smokescreen, it's Arnold. I asked about
the results of such a blind comparison. Mike says, by default, that
he's never done such a comparison or knows of a result that he can
quote (he may not have even HEARD a Halcro, for all I know). Then
Arnold comes in talking about how rare one of the components is. This,
of course, has nothing to do with the claim.

Apparently, now you don't even have to DO dbts, you just have to talk
about them.

Welll then, here's a counterclaim that's just as verifiable as Mike's.
If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a
Halcro, you'd discover how different they sound.

The fact that I've never heard a Halcro apparently doesn't matter.

Is there any reason that you know of that would make them sound different
form each other?

wrote in message
et
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT,
wrote:
"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were
class AB and others were so called class H, and some
people seem to think class H amps sound different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to
listen to a so called class H amp over a period of some
years and found it be as good sounding as any amp I'd
ever heard before.

One well-known advocate of both ABX tests and Class H amplifiers is QSC.
They've made a big point out of inviting people who say that their amps
sound different to ABX them. QSC even makes and sells ABX boxes for the
purpose, and gives free demos of them.

Still nothing affects what one hears nearly as much as
speakers and the room they are in.

You forgot about the preconceived notions of certain listeners. ;-)

wrote in message
. net
"dave weil" wrote in message
...


Welll then, here's a counterclaim that's just as
verifiable as Mike's. If you ever tried a blind
comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a Halcro, you'd
discover how different they sound.

BZZZT! someone wants Weil to back up his claims or taunts?

Kryptonite.

The fact that I've never heard a Halcro apparently
doesn't matter.


The fact that I've never heard a Halcro doesn't matter. The fact that they
are so rare that you can't even find them at major exhibits like HE2005
suggests that we're talking about amps with a goodly dose of unobtainium.

Is there any reason that you know of that would make them
sound different form each other?

They measure so much better? ;-)

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
: wrote in message
: et
: "dave weil" wrote in message
: ...
: On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT,
: wrote:
: "How many QSC amps have you listened to?
: Not all are the same."
:
:
:
: I was referring to the fact at the time that some were
: class AB and others were so called class H, and some
: people seem to think class H amps sound different.
:
: What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?
:
: I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to
: listen to a so called class H amp over a period of some
: years and found it be as good sounding as any amp I'd
: ever heard before.
:
: One well-known advocate of both ABX tests and Class H amplifiers is QSC.
: They've made a big point out of inviting people who say that their amps
: sound different to ABX them. QSC even makes and sells ABX boxes for the
: purpose, and gives free demos of them.

you mean, something like ICEpower ?
doesn't seem to be so according to this google hit :

"The class "H" amps are simply traditional a/b amps with switching supplies,
at different rail voltages (for increased effeciency). Kind of a variation of the
old Carver amps. These QSC/Behringer amps don't use the
Tripath/Motorola/ICEPower chips, so they are not "digital" in any sense.
Some say that they aren't as "clean" as traditional amps"
:::
or was it class H just in your opinion, Arny ?
RB.


: Still nothing affects what one hears nearly as much as
: speakers and the room they are in.
:
: You forgot about the preconceived notions of certain listeners. ;-)
:
:

wrote in message
et...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and
others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to listen to a so
called class H amp over a period of some years and found it be as good
sounding as any amp I'd ever heard before.

What is Class H?

Norm Strong

"Ruud Broens" wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
et
"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT,
wrote:
"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were
class AB and others were so called class H, and some
people seem to think class H amps sound different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to
listen to a so called class H amp over a period of some
years and found it be as good sounding as any amp I'd
ever heard before.

One well-known advocate of both ABX tests and Class H
amplifiers is QSC. They've made a big point out of
inviting people who say that their amps sound different
to ABX them. QSC even makes and sells ABX boxes for the
purpose, and gives free demos of them.

you mean, something like ICEpower ?

No, that's class D, not class G or class H.

doesn't seem to be so according to this google hit :

"The class "H" amps are simply traditional a/b amps with
switching supplies,
at different rail voltages (for increased effeciency).

That's one definition.

The difference between Class G and Class H are kinda fuzzed up in some
people'sminds.

Kind of a variation of the old Carver amps. These
QSC/Behringer amps don't use the
Tripath/Motorola/ICEPower chips, so they are not
"digital" in any sense.

Agreed, but neither are the Tripath amps digital. They are switchmode.

Some say that they aren't as "clean" as traditional amps"

Some people say lots of crazy things.

or was it class H just in your opinion, Arny ?

Class G and Class H done right simply work.

wrote in message

wrote in message
et...

"dave weil" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT,
wrote:
"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were
class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think
class H amps sound different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to
listen to a so called class H amp over a period of some
years and found it be as good sounding as any amp I'd
ever heard before.

What is Class H?

http://www.screensound.gov.au/glossa...r?OpenDocument

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

At normal listening levels 'class H' amplifiers *are* class AB.

Graham

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:41:01 GMT, wrote:


"dave weil" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

I haven't seen any. I have had plenty of opportunity to listen to a so
called class H amp over a period of some years and found it be as good
sounding as any amp I'd ever heard before.

So then, the question "How many QSC amps have you listened to?" was
pretty much irrelevant, right?

And, your above statment presumes one of two states:

1. SETs sound just as good as any other amp.

Or:

2. You've never heard an SET.

Well, there's another:

1. I have no ability to discern what "good sounding" means in relation
fo real music.

(just waiting on some asshole to attribute the above statement to
me...)

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 17:42:55 GMT, wrote:


Welll then, here's a counterclaim that's just as verifiable as Mike's.
If you ever tried a blind comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a
Halcro, you'd discover how different they sound.

The fact that I've never heard a Halcro apparently doesn't matter.

Is there any reason that you know of that would make them sound different
form each other?

I don't know. I've never done a dbt of the amps, nor have I auditioned
a Halcro. g

I don't even know what Yamaha receiver you were talking about, *or*
the type of speaker that you were proposing using, both facts being
somewhat important to the equation.

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 14:11:59 -0500, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message
...


Welll then, here's a counterclaim that's just as
verifiable as Mike's. If you ever tried a blind
comparison of a Yamaha receiver vs. a Halcro, you'd
discover how different they sound.

BZZZT! someone wants Weil to back up his claims or taunts?

Why on earth are you replying to me?

Just for giggles, how does *my* claim differ from Mike's? They'e both
from people who have never heard one of the products being discussed
and there's apparently no dbt that has been done on the components
being discussed. heck, there are few dbts published regarding ANY
power amps. Certainly not enough to be any where close to
definitive...

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:57:16 +0000, Pooh Bear
wrote:



dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:29:12 GMT, wrote:

"How many QSC amps have you listened to?
Not all are the same."



I was referring to the fact at the time that some were class AB and others
were so called class H, and some people seem to think class H amps sound
different.

What do the dbts say about class H vs. class AB?

At normal listening levels 'class H' amplifiers *are* class AB.

Graham

Well then, according to Mike, the question he posed was pretty much
irrelevant, right?

And yes, I've owned a couple of class H amps, one for a couple of
years and the other for about 10 years.

And no, I never did any dbts on them vs. other more "conventional"
amps, so I suppose that I'm disqualified from discussing supposed
sound differences. However, I can say this; I found the sound of both
amps acceptable to me, except when the power supply wasn't sufficient
and the amp's (one of them, not the other) protection circuitry cut
the output periodically. This occured when I was using said amp for a
party for my fiancee's family in a German "barn". Apparently the power
line was dirty or "saggy" enough to trigger the protection circuitry
and we had to reset things about 4 or 5 times during the evening. It
tended to interrupt the dancing. That was a little embarassing...