Joseph Oberlander wrote:

Lionel wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:


Most people won't pay over $1000 in any case for a bookshelf speaker,
but will buy a small tower as they get full-range in a small package.

You are right :

1. Dynaudio "Audience 52"
http://www.dynaudiousa.com/products/...e/52/aud52.htm

2. JM Lab Cobalt 806s
http://www.focal.tm.fr/fr/home/cobaltS/c806s.htm

3. Etc............................

4. Etc............................

"Exceptionnaly"
1546. JM Lab have a "bookshelf" Micro Utopia BE for about $5500.00
without stands.
http://www.focal.tm.fr/gb/home/utopiabe/microbe.htm


These speakers will roast his for lunch on low heat.

I mean - why isn't he spending $500 a pair on supplies and making a
$3000 audiophile-marketed speaker?

$1000-$1500 is dangerous territory and his speaker has serious design
flaws to begin with.



Quit trolling, Joe, you really aren't good at it.

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...

Hell, even Krueger wouldn't buy a speaker on specs alone. Congrats, you
are now more of an idiot than the densest guy on Usent.

I absolutely and positively deny that I have any connection with "Usent" at
all.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

OMG I almost lost my soda on that one. What a rube. Check out his
construction. He's not even in the same league as the major players.
At BEST he's equal.

I haven't commented on the construction quality and you certianly
can't tell the construction quality from his photos.

The construction quality of his speakers is just fine. Top-quality
heavy bi-wiring posts, tight cabinet construction, attention to detail
in terms of screw alighnment, etc. I don't know how he could have done
any better. The only thing was that batting issue that I talked about.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Look at the Saturn 6 LR bookshelf speakers. Nice, decent designs.
They took the same drivers and $50 more in materials(since the MSRP
is only $300 more) and the low-end dropped to 31hz.

Joe, you're thinking is completely wrong. If you want stuff that is
obviously built to a price point, just so you can own it and think "Oh,
I'll buy something better when I can afford it," then bully for you.

I am a consumer. I see a speaker advertized. It has worse specs and
less bass response for the same money. It absolutely DOES matter that
he's pricing it too high to survive real-world exposure.

Are you just misreading the specs are you are trying to be deceitful?

The 6 LRs only go to 60 hz while the Europas go to 50 hz, the same as
the 8LRs.

BTW, Tannoy does *not* have the same drivers. I could be argued that
they only have *one* driver really. I haven't said that up to now, but
it's really true you know. Sure it has two "elements".

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Most consumers do exactly this, believe it or not. Adding a second
woofer would be very easy in fact if he had a larger cabinet.

OK, I'll comment, prematurely I might add. I think that his speaker
would be better if he went up slightly in the cabinet and added a
midrange speaker. The upper bass/lower midrange congestion is more
onerous for me than the lack of bass. The last time I heard a two way
Tannoy (or just about *any* two way for that matter), I found the same
tendencies. While there may be a two way out there that solves that
problem, I don't remember one that completely solves it. Believe it or
not, I think the large Advents probably don't have as much of a
problem, mainly do to the significally larger sized cabinet, larger
woofer and woofer/tweeter configuration. But when you're talking about
smaller booxes and smaller woofers, that's just part of the tradeoff.
Even for Tannoy, although I'm commenting only on the Tannoy I heard
about 3 years ago.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 10:07:31 +0100, Langis wrote:

Couple of questions for clarification..



dave weil wrote:

First of all, I value a deep bass, but it has to be round without
being flabby, taut without being drawn and pinched and powerful with a
sense of slam but not overbearing. Maybe these descriptors sound
contradictory, but I think that most music lovers know what I'm trying
to impart. The problem with the Europas is what you'd expect from just
about any relatively small bookshelf ported speaker with an 8 inch
woofer. It just doesn't go as deep as you need to be really
"realistic". In this respect, I have to quibble with Greg's statement
that they are "neutral". I think he's confusing "neutral" with "lean".
I understand what he's trying to say, since many speakers tend to go
overboard with the bass, trying to hit deep notes with the subtlety of
a sledgehammer. The Europas offer a very nice bass response up to a
point. What bass is there is everything that I treasure in a speaker.
However, it falls short when it comes to the foundation necessary to
create a "lifelike" image. The bass approaches the Quad standard more
than it does the Cerwin-Vega standard (to give an example of an
egregious offender). But this isn't Quad bass. Sorry. It just doesn't
quite approach the richness and "palpability", to use a well-worn
catchword, that I remember from Quads.

Are you saying the speakers are lean within the frequency range they
cover, or that in your opinion they are lean simply because they lack
bass extension?

The latter. They certainly aren't "lean" in the upper bass/lower
midrange. A little bit "bloated" if I can use a different phrase than
the one I used in the review (substitute for congested). But mainly
with mateiral with a lot of energy in that range. Classical and small
combo jazz don't seem to be affected very much.

Another negative isn't really a negative of the speaker. If the source
material tends toward the sibilant, this speaker will exacerbate that
tendency slightly. Note the word *slightly*. It's not nearly
objectionable as other speakers I've heard in the past. This might be
considered an indicator of the basic "accuracy" of the speaker as it
certainly doesn't cover up that flaw. Nor does it blow it out of
proportion.

Again, this isn't clear. Is this a reflection of the source material,
or a characteristic the speaker imparts on the sound.

Source material, as noted in the review.

It is *not* sibilant otherwise.

mentioned). With the exception of the lack of deep bass, the speakers
portray a reasonable sense of "slam". Make no mistake though, these
speakers WILL NOT reproduce a rock concert realistically.

Putting bass extension to one side, do they reproduce a rock concert
realistically within the frequency range of the speaker?

No, I wouldn't say that they do. for one thing, they won't play that
loud and keep their poise.

I don't know any small cabinet speakers that do, frankly. Do you?

I like the sense of air that the speaker imparts to the music,
especially acoustic music.

Is "the sense of air" is a characteristic the speaker imparts to the
music, or is it that the speaker reproduces upper frequencies with
revealing accurately.

A little of both.

In other words, is this "sense of air"
reproduced across the board, or only when it's present in the source
material.

Well, it doesn't create "air" when it's not there. For instance, even
though I haven't listened to any yet, I doubt that Todd Rundgren would
magically be transformed into a "transparent" sound. Maybe I'll do
that today at some point.

Hope this helps.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:34:06 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Are you saying the speakers are lean within the frequency range they
cover, or that in your opinion they are lean simply because they lack
bass extension?

I read it as saying that the bass was clean, but thin as far as
impact/dynamics.

No, that's not what I meant. The bass isn't "thin". It's quite rich
and vibrant. It's just "truncated", if that makes any sense.

It's punchy but not as prominent as some speakers due to the loss of
the bottom octave/s.

It's got a quite pleasing bass actually. I'd rather have that than an
excess of bass.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 08:24:02 -0500, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:

Look at the Saturn 6 LR bookshelf speakers. Nice, decent designs.
They took the same drivers and $50 more in materials(since the MSRP
is only $300 more) and the low-end dropped to 31hz.

Joe, you're thinking is completely wrong. If you want stuff that is
obviously built to a price point, just so you can own it and think "Oh,
I'll buy something better when I can afford it," then bully for you.

I am a consumer. I see a speaker advertized. It has worse specs and
less bass response for the same money. It absolutely DOES matter that
he's pricing it too high to survive real-world exposure.

Are you just misreading the specs are you are trying to be deceitful?

The 6 LRs only go to 60 hz while the Europas go to 50 hz, the same as
the 8LRs.

BTW, Tannoy does *not* have the same drivers. I could be argued that
they only have *one* driver really. I haven't said that up to now, but
it's really true you know. Sure it has two "elements".

Sorry, I misread what you were trying to say, since you didn't
specifically mention the 6. However, they didn't "use" the same
drivers exactly, now did they?

So, if they added only $50 worth of materials, why the 6x markup on
those materials?

BTW, even Tannoy sells a two way with "worse specs" for even *more*
money than the 6. Look at the Stirling. Why are they trying to market
that speaker for 2200 pounds? Is it because of the name? g Heck,
it's a 10 inch driver and it doesn't even match the 6 in bass
response?

I hope you catch my drift here...

And, ps, we really don't know how accurate the 6 is at 31 hz anyway.
Is this -6dB instead of -3dB as I suspect it is? Who knows?

Arny Krueger wrote:

"trotsky" wrote in message
ink.net...


Hell, even Krueger wouldn't buy a speaker on specs alone. Congrats, you
are now more of an idiot than the densest guy on Usent.


I absolutely and positively deny that I have any connection with
"Usent" at
all.





I thought I told you to leave the group permanently for lying.

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Most consumers do exactly this, believe it or not. Adding a second
woofer would be very easy in fact if he had a larger cabinet.


OK, I'll comment, prematurely I might add. I think that his speaker
would be better if he went up slightly in the cabinet and added a
midrange speaker.



I've got a three floor standing speaker in the works, with the Peerless
woofer that the sub uses. I'm guessing it will be about double the
price. Three bookshelf speakers never seemed quite right to me.

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:34:06 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Are you saying the speakers are lean within the frequency range they
cover, or that in your opinion they are lean simply because they lack
bass extension?

I read it as saying that the bass was clean, but thin as far as
impact/dynamics.


No, that's not what I meant. The bass isn't "thin". It's quite rich
and vibrant. It's just "truncated", if that makes any sense.



That's the best description. That woofer drops off like a stone
slightly below 50 Hz. I think this is a reasonable tradeoff, though,
because the midrange is much better than the norm for a cone of this size.




It's punchy but not as prominent as some speakers due to the loss of
the bottom octave/s.

It's got a quite pleasing bass actually. I'd rather have that than an
excess of bass.



I think what I'd like to stress is the tonal accuracy. They simply
don't make many of the errors of commission or omission that a lot of
speakers do.

Now to the specific musical selections.

This isn't going to be in any particular order. However, we'll start
with CDs.

The questions that Paul asked about leaness might be addressed by
comparing two similar groups with different sounds (plus, I can
address the "congestion issue"). The first is the Gin Blossoms and
Soul Asylum. Both bands have a bit of a 'garage band" feel, but the
Gin Blossoms have a punchy but lean sound on their second album
Congratulations, I'm Sorry, (more Tele/Stat sound). You might almost
describe it as wirey, while Soul Asylum goes more toward a thick,
distorted "wall of sound" (more Les Paul sound) on their album Grave
Digger's Union, especially on the first song, Somebody To Shove. The
Europas server the Gin Blossoms well, but tend to clog up with Soul
Asylum, especially when listening at the high levels that the song
demands. It also hardens to the point of distraction. That song should
sound big but "reverberant" and it doesn't on the Europas.

The same dichotomy can be used for Lucinda Williams. On her first
major album, Lucinda Williams, the sound is bright and clear. I would
describe the production style as "lean". On Car Wheels on a Gravel
Road, the style is cluttered and sludgy in a lot of places (not in a
bad way, mind you, it's designed to have a sort of murky "Southern"
texture). On the LW album, if you can criticize the speaker, it's in
the tendency to make it sound a little brighter than it should (based
on my experience with the album on all sorts of systems over the
years). However, in the main, it maintains the qualities of the album
quite well. When the sound is lean (jangly top end and punchy low end)
you get a full measure of that sense. On the one song that's recorded
a bit "wet", Changed the Locks, the drum intro is sufficiently
"overblown" and soggy. As it shuld be. On the latter album, the sound
tends to thicken up but it never hardens like it does with Soul
Asylum. In this case, it actually does a decent job of mainting the
sound of both poles of Lucinda's music. And her voice really is
well-formed on the latter album, and it really pops out, as was
intended by the production team.

On Frank Black's first solo album, I expect more "punch". This is
where the lack of bass response lets the Europas down. Still, on
balance, it sounds great. Big and bright and a little trashy. Just as
intended.

On Keith Jarrett's Belonging, you get an unvarnished view. It doesn't
make Jan Garbarek artificially any more inviting (I've always found
his tone rather souless for the most part). I like the sound of Palle
Danielsson's bass here. It sounds harmonically "right". The little
"pops and snaps" on Long as You Know You're Living Yours are perfectly
in proportion.

We'll pick this us again either later today or tomorrow...

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:08:25 GMT, trotsky wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Most consumers do exactly this, believe it or not. Adding a second
woofer would be very easy in fact if he had a larger cabinet.


OK, I'll comment, prematurely I might add. I think that his speaker
would be better if he went up slightly in the cabinet and added a
midrange speaker.



I've got a three floor standing speaker in the works, with the Peerless
woofer that the sub uses. I'm guessing it will be about double the
price. Three bookshelf speakers never seemed quite right to me.

I would pretty much agree. You have to get a pretty good sized cabinet
to turn it into a three way.

When you're experimenting with the configuration, you shouldn't
dismiss Allison's ideas about woofer placement. NHT actually did
something with the idea - however, there are *very* few designs out
that that don't have a conventional front panel placement, so, you
would be maintaining your "uniqueness", plus, you might find that such
a placement makes the speaker placement a little easier (as they are
designed for placement near a boundary) *and* you get a smooth bass
FR. NHT kept their slim profile by sticking the woofer on the side
panel, but you also have the option of top mounting it *or* doing a 45
degree sloping woofer like on the Allsion CD9s (now *that* was a
speaker with deep pleasing bass).

Plus, maybe Howard would review your speakers...

....ummm...scratch that chuckle

Just some thoughts...

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:43:53 +0100, Langis wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Couple of questions for clarification..



dave weil wrote:

First of all, I value a deep bass, but it has to be round without
being flabby, taut without being drawn and pinched and powerful with a
sense of slam but not overbearing. Maybe these descriptors sound
contradictory, but I think that most music lovers know what I'm trying
to impart. The problem with the Europas is what you'd expect from just
about any relatively small bookshelf ported speaker with an 8 inch
woofer. It just doesn't go as deep as you need to be really
"realistic". In this respect, I have to quibble with Greg's statement
that they are "neutral". I think he's confusing "neutral" with "lean".
I understand what he's trying to say, since many speakers tend to go
overboard with the bass, trying to hit deep notes with the subtlety of
a sledgehammer. The Europas offer a very nice bass response up to a
point. What bass is there is everything that I treasure in a speaker.
However, it falls short when it comes to the foundation necessary to
create a "lifelike" image. The bass approaches the Quad standard more
than it does the Cerwin-Vega standard (to give an example of an
egregious offender). But this isn't Quad bass. Sorry. It just doesn't
quite approach the richness and "palpability", to use a well-worn
catchword, that I remember from Quads.

Are you saying the speakers are lean within the frequency range they
cover, or that in your opinion they are lean simply because they lack
bass extension?

The latter. They certainly aren't "lean" in the upper bass/lower
midrange. A little bit "bloated" if I can use a different phrase than
the one I used in the review (substitute for congested). But mainly
with mateiral with a lot of energy in that range. Classical and small
combo jazz don't seem to be affected very much.

In that case I think it's a little unfair to use the word "lean". One
would expect a bookshelf to have limited bass extension, you could
describe pretty much any bookshelf as being "lean" by default. What is
important is whether it's accurate through the range it handles.

That's a fair point. I mean that "generally" it sounds a little lean
throughout its range. There is some material that sounds a little
"congested" though.

Note that lean here isn't as perjorative as it might sound. Actually,
it's fairly desirable. You might pair it with the adjective "agile".

Another negative isn't really a negative of the speaker. If the source
material tends toward the sibilant, this speaker will exacerbate that
tendency slightly. Note the word *slightly*. It's not nearly
objectionable as other speakers I've heard in the past. This might be
considered an indicator of the basic "accuracy" of the speaker as it
certainly doesn't cover up that flaw. Nor does it blow it out of
proportion.

Again, this isn't clear. Is this a reflection of the source material,
or a characteristic the speaker imparts on the sound.

Source material, as noted in the review.

It is *not* sibilant otherwise.

You said it *exacerbates* sibilance. If it simply reproduces sibilance
on the recording as-is, then we are talking about a very revealing and
unforgiving speaker. Good.

A bit of that.

If it exacerbates sibiliance, that implies colouration.

Don't forget the word "slightly". I think that one is drawn to it
because of the crisp handling of highs from the tweeter. Does that
make any sense?

In any case, I haven't been able to detect any "added sibilance" that
isn't already there. I can't think of any examples off the top of my
head, but I have heard speakers that *were* sibilant in and of
themselves.

mentioned). With the exception of the lack of deep bass, the speakers
portray a reasonable sense of "slam". Make no mistake though, these
speakers WILL NOT reproduce a rock concert realistically.

Putting bass extension to one side, do they reproduce a rock concert
realistically within the frequency range of the speaker?

No, I wouldn't say that they do. for one thing, they won't play that
loud and keep their poise.

OK

I don't know any small cabinet speakers that do, frankly. Do you?

Well, yeah. My JM Labs go louder than I can tolerate over an extended
period, without breaking up.

Haven't heard them. Which JM Labs are they again? And how much do they
cost? How do they handle the highs? Do they tend to get a little
cluttered in the upper bass/lower midrange as well?

Would you say that they reproduce a rock concert though? (I mean in
every sense of the word).

I like the sense of air that the speaker imparts to the music,
especially acoustic music.

Is "the sense of air" is a characteristic the speaker imparts to the
music, or is it that the speaker reproduces upper frequencies with
revealing accurately.

A little of both.

In other words, is this "sense of air"
reproduced across the board, or only when it's present in the source
material.

Well, it doesn't create "air" when it's not there. For instance, even
though I haven't listened to any yet, I doubt that Todd Rundgren would
magically be transformed into a "transparent" sound. Maybe I'll do
that today at some point.

Hope this helps.

It does. Thanks.

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:08:25 GMT, trotsky wrote:


dave weil wrote:


On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:



Most consumers do exactly this, believe it or not. Adding a second
woofer would be very easy in fact if he had a larger cabinet.


OK, I'll comment, prematurely I might add. I think that his speaker
would be better if he went up slightly in the cabinet and added a
midrange speaker.



I've got a three floor standing speaker in the works, with the Peerless
woofer that the sub uses. I'm guessing it will be about double the
price. Three way bookshelf speakers never seemed quite right to me.


I would pretty much agree. You have to get a pretty good sized cabinet
to turn it into a three way.


Obviously I meant "three way" and not "three". I'm sure Arny will have
a field day with that if he hasn't left the group permanently.



When you're experimenting with the configuration, you shouldn't
dismiss Allison's ideas about woofer placement. NHT actually did
something with the idea - however, there are *very* few designs out
that that don't have a conventional front panel placement, so, you
would be maintaining your "uniqueness", plus, you might find that such
a placement makes the speaker placement a little easier (as they are
designed for placement near a boundary) *and* you get a smooth bass
FR. NHT kept their slim profile by sticking the woofer on the side
panel, but you also have the option of top mounting it *or* doing a 45
degree sloping woofer like on the Allsion CD9s (now *that* was a
speaker with deep pleasing bass).

Plus, maybe Howard would review your speakers...

...ummm...scratch that

Just some thoughts...



There's a lot of possibilities. With the advent of home theater, the
side firing woofer makes more sense than ever. But my experience tells
me that in some ways conventional designs still work the best. A lot of
this stuff is to take room placement out of the equation, and I think
the opposite is necessary: if you want the best performance in your
particular room you have to do the work and fuss with the room placement
until it is near perfect. I go into a lot of detail on this in the
Europa instruction manual. I don't think enough is said, in general,
about how to get the most out of a speaker in a given room.

trotsky wrote:

Joe, you're thinking is completely wrong. If you want stuff that is
obviously built to a price point, just so you can own it and think
"Oh, I'll buy something better when I can afford it," then bully for
you.

I am a consumer.

You are a liar. If you were a consumer, you'd be buying a pair of
speakers instead of mentally masturbating about them. You are a troll.

I do A/V and computer consulting, as well as have helped more friends
and family in the last few years with speakers and audio equipment than
I can count. I don't buy the speakers, but they do after I've listened
to dozens and dozens and narrowed it down to a few in their price range.

I see a speaker advertized. It has worse specs and
less bass response for the same money. It absolutely DOES matter that
he's pricing it too high to survive real-world exposure.

Hell, even Krueger wouldn't buy a speaker on specs alone. Congrats, you
are now more of an idiot than the densest guy on Usent.

But specs weed out the also-rans as well for consumers. Really - would
you rather have a car with 100 or 140hp if both are roughly the same size?
(aside from asthetics - say, comparing a Civic to a Corolla)

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:28:56 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Most consumers do exactly this, believe it or not. Adding a second
woofer would be very easy in fact if he had a larger cabinet.


OK, I'll comment, prematurely I might add. I think that his speaker
would be better if he went up slightly in the cabinet and added a
midrange speaker. The upper bass/lower midrange congestion is more
onerous for me than the lack of bass. The last time I heard a two way
Tannoy (or just about *any* two way for that matter), I found the same
tendencies.

So did I, oddly enough. The Athenas actually were shockingly good
despite their initial oddness(mostly due to the whoile modular thing).

I've always been a fan myself of 3-ways, but they DO require a serious
crossover. Hence why I still own my 4410s despite their age.(mine are the
older wood-grained finish, so WAF/GAF is acceptable)

The market has VERY few bookshelf 3-ways that are good. He makes his
cabinet a *bit* larger(just makes it deeper), and adds that midrange...

Old speakers from the 80's were not as refined as the new ones today, but
they did a good job mostly because they had 3-4 speakers that were tuned
to their best operating range. Kind of like how a turbo-4 may be faster
than a V6, but the V6 is remarkably smooth and decent, depsite its
humble technology. Most speakers sound very well in their best range,
though with cheaper drivers, it's usually small. I bet the problem is
that his woofers are only "clean" up to about 2Khz, and the tweeter
down to maybe 4Khz. Midrange set from ~1.8-4.5 or so would fix it
immediately.

dave weil wrote:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 09:34:06 GMT, Joseph Oberlander
wrote:


Are you saying the speakers are lean within the frequency range they
cover, or that in your opinion they are lean simply because they lack
bass extension?

I read it as saying that the bass was clean, but thin as far as
impact/dynamics.


No, that's not what I meant. The bass isn't "thin". It's quite rich
and vibrant. It's just "truncated", if that makes any sense.

Kay. may bad. I don't do well with wine reviews, either. Too many
vague terms to describe the experience.

It's punchy but not as prominent as some speakers due to the loss of
the bottom octave/s.

It's got a quite pleasing bass actually. I'd rather have that than an
excess of bass.

Humm - perhaps a 4 inch midrange and a 10 inch for real bass?

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Joe, you're thinking is completely wrong. If you want stuff that is
obviously built to a price point, just so you can own it and think
"Oh, I'll buy something better when I can afford it," then bully
for you.

I am a consumer.


You are a liar. If you were a consumer, you'd be buying a pair of
speakers instead of mentally masturbating about them. You are a troll.


I do A/V and computer consulting, as well as have helped more friends
and family in the last few years with speakers and audio equipment than
I can count.



Well, either that's a large number of people, or you need more fingers
and toes.


I don't buy the speakers, but they do after I've listened
to dozens and dozens and narrowed it down to a few in their price range.



Interesting--so you're admitting to ignorance with regards to the actual
sound of the speakers. And how many of this 'too numerous to count'
number of people actually bought either Tannoys or Ellises?




I see a speaker advertized. It has worse specs and
less bass response for the same money. It absolutely DOES matter that
he's pricing it too high to survive real-world exposure.


Hell, even Krueger wouldn't buy a speaker on specs alone. Congrats,
you are now more of an idiot than the densest guy on Usent.


But specs weed out the also-rans as well for consumers.



They do? How are the specs on Bose speakers, then?


Really - would
you rather have a car with 100 or 140hp if both are roughly the same size?
(aside from asthetics - say, comparing a Civic to a Corolla)



The American cars always have more hp than the comparable Japanese cars,
which still sell for more. Your analogies are stupid.

trotsky wrote:
I do A/V and computer consulting, as well as have helped more friends
and family in the last few years with speakers and audio equipment than
I can count.

Well, either that's a large number of people, or you need more fingers
and toes.

Heh. I do classify as a "consumer", or close enough to it. Not a huge
number lately, though(last few months), but speakers don't change as
fast as computers do.

I don't buy the speakers, but they do after I've listened
to dozens and dozens and narrowed it down to a few in their price range.

Interesting--so you're admitting to ignorance with regards to the actual
sound of the speakers. And how many of this 'too numerous to count'
number of people actually bought either Tannoys or Ellises?

Listening to hundreds of different speakers that are currently available?
That's a dozen times more than most "consumers" do.

No, I'm no expert, but I can tell a good deal for the money.

But specs weed out the also-rans as well for consumers.

They do? How are the specs on Bose speakers, then?

Gimmie a sec...

There.

Actual specs(Sound and Vision Magazine review) - Bose Lifestyle series.

SATELLITES BASS MODULE
Freq Response 280 Hz to 13.3 kHz ±10.5 dB 46 Hz to 202 Hz ±2.3 dB
Sensitivity 85.1 dB

Of course, finding this is difficult. If Bose put it in their
literature, they'd pass on them every time. The 202-280hz hole
is especially bad.

Sound and Vision took the review off their site. Maybe because Bose
pays for huge ads in their magazine?

Just to nourish the debate concerning economical point of view.

http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/

I know it's in French but lest have a look to "Kits" pages and more
especially to :

1. Audax
2. Audio-dynamique
3. Dynaudio (I heard them yesterday afternoo. Whaooo !)

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 09:54:26 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

Just to nourish the debate concerning economical point of view.

http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/

I know it's in French but lest have a look to "Kits" pages and more
especially to :

1. Audax
2. Audio-dynamique
3. Dynaudio (I heard them yesterday afternoo. Whaooo !)

When I was in Hamburg a couple of years ago, I heard a DM100,000
Dynaudio speaker system. I was completely underwhelmed. They were
using mbl monoblock amps (I think at something like DM30,000 a pop).

The caveat is that I was nowhere near the sweet spot, which was
reserved for a couple of black clad German schicki-mickis.

However, in that sized room, they should have sound far better at my
listening position (especially for that amount of money). Therefore,
I'm a bit prejudiced against Dynaudio (unfair I know).

Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records). In that space
and on those speakers, Billie and her accompaniment was fully formed
and it REALLY did approach real "liveness" for me (an "in-the-room"
quality). There was an "electrostatic" quality coming out of those
rather large box speakers. Holliday's voice was at just about the
correct height and placed a little left and well forward of the drums.
All of the instrumentation seemed to be where it should without having
that "imaged" quality - they seemed to occupy a space, not a point.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Europas. I have a feeling
that it's mainly influenced by the room - yet, I haven't seen this
much disparity with other things I have listened to. In the case of
the Europas, Holliday's voice appears to be coming directly out of the
left speaker. This has two problems - first, she's now a dwarf.
Second, your attention is drawn to the speaker instead of a
"disembodied" voice standing in free space. Another problem is that
she's further left than I remember. Other albums have kept the voices
closer to what I remember from other rooms, other systems (I'm
speaking especially of things that I've heard over a 10 - 20 year span
in as many as 10 different home listening rooms). I really don't know
why *this* album is so different. I'll have to listen to it again with
the Cornwalls to see if I get the same sort of displacement issues in
this room.

On the plus side, the Europas maintain that rich, smooth sound of the
record, especially with the bass drum, which has a silky velvety feel
to it, and the bass which sounds harmonically correct to me It didn't
lose much from the loss of the last octave. The cornet (I think that's
what it is) on One For My Baby has the bite and presence without being
hyperreal. However, the ensemble doesn't really come together. The
drums are panned far right and not distinguishable as a kit. This
could be the influence of the mass of the TV sitting where it would
normally be placed. But I haven't seen much displacement on other LPs
- I'm just reporting what I'm experiencing.

One thing I noticed on one of the songs on side one, was how the echo
from the guitar was panned into the left speaker at an appropriate
interval from the actual right speaker sound of the guitar itself. I
hadn't noticed that before. Interesting.

For contrast, I played the late 70s Boston group Robin Lane and the
Chartbusters. I put on the second album, Imitation Life, which has a
sort of "wall of sound", fairly compressed sound to it. On the
Klipsches, the sound is large and pretty powerful, but one
dimentional. On the Europas, they're just one dimensional. There's a
"one note" pulsing to the bass and some of the drums. The exception on
on the finely crafted song, Say Goodbye. The bass sounds wonderful.

Staying with the wimmen, I put on one my favorite sides of music, side
two of Hounds of Love, by Kate Bush. Fortunely, I was able to recently
replace my totally worn out copy with a new fresh one. With the
oft-noted exception of the lack of bottom octave, the Eurpoas do this
music right. It's full, rich, and the effects are well-placed. Some
speakers make her voice sound harsh, the Europas don't. The one
problem is that I couldn't play it as loud as I wanted, due to audible
subsonic woofer travels (travails?) I've also got the album on CD so
maybe I'll find it and give it a spin so I can listen at levels more
appropriate (the problem is that the disc is quite dynamic and the
quiet parts are really impacted by the subsonics, while the ouder
parts aren't - but i can't get the louder parts louder without causing
some serious problems during the quiet passages)

On Bryan Ferry's Boys and Girls, the opening moments to Sensation are
brilliantly protrayed. Punchy, bold and round, just like it should be.
However, the song gets a little brittle in the middle (of the sound,
not the song). I'll be honest and say that I can't say whether or not
other speakers do this as well - I don't remember noticing it before.
I'll be sure to listen for it when I hook up the other speakers. The
percussion sounds a bit "mechanical", which is part of the intended
sound of course, but there's something a little disquieting about it
to my ears. I'm not sure if I can put my finger on it. It just seems a
little more "canned" than I expect. On Don't Stop the Dance, the bass
is round and punchy BUT it seems a little elevated in the frequency
spectrum - sounds right but not as deep, if this makes any sense.

Well, this has gone on long enough. I'll try to listen to some
classical later in the day and get back to everyone. I'm still sort of
caught between trying to do other things. Plus, I"m trying to find my
manual so I can find out if the darn Denon has a subsonic switch
somewhere - I'd be surprised if it didn't. The pdf file on the web
site takes FOREVER to open, it's still opening as we speak...

"dave weil" wrote in message


Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records).

Ironically, a non-existent recording.

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 12:40:05 -0400, "Arny Krueger"
wrote:

"dave weil" wrote in message


Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records).

Ironically, a non-existent recording.

Or a misspelled one.

the recording actually exists of course.

Glad you read the review though. Ever hear the referenced album?

dave weil wrote:

Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records). In that space
and on those speakers, Billie and her accompaniment was fully formed
and it REALLY did approach real "liveness" for me (an "in-the-room"
quality). There was an "electrostatic" quality coming out of those
rather large box speakers. Holliday's voice was at just about the
correct height and placed a little left and well forward of the drums.
All of the instrumentation seemed to be where it should without having
that "imaged" quality - they seemed to occupy a space, not a point.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Europas. I have a feeling
that it's mainly influenced by the room - yet, I haven't seen this
much disparity with other things I have listened to. In the case of
the Europas, Holliday's voice appears to be coming directly out of the
left speaker. This has two problems - first, she's now a dwarf.
Second, your attention is drawn to the speaker instead of a
"disembodied" voice standing in free space. Another problem is that
she's further left than I remember. Other albums have kept the voices
closer to what I remember from other rooms, other systems (I'm
speaking especially of things that I've heard over a 10 - 20 year span
in as many as 10 different home listening rooms). I really don't know
why *this* album is so different. I'll have to listen to it again with
the Cornwalls to see if I get the same sort of displacement issues in
this room.


snip

On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment. On the one hand, I'm glad you've given the Europas a
fair listen, but on the other hand there are certain common sense issues
that I really didn't predict. For example, in this installment of your
impressions, you seem to go out of your way to take speakers that are
larger and more expensive--Klipsch Cornwalls and Merlin EXP3s--and
compare the Europas' sound to whatever those particular speakers do
best, but never once did you say in what categories my speaker beats
them. Nor did you put it in a context of price or size--the Cornwalls
are ten times the size and 10 dB more efficient--is it any wonder why
you get a larger scale sound much higher SPLs. Most people (and by
most, I mean somewhere between 95 and 100%) wouldn't even have a speaker
as large and industrial looking as the Cornwall in their house. And, as
you one goes down the list, you can be seen to go out of your way to
accentuate the negative with my speaker. Words like "lean" and
"sibilant" are always going to be seen as negative--that's just common
sense. Besides which, there is nothing the least bit "lean" or sibilant
about the Europa anyway. If you follow my placement instructions, which
can be found in the owner's manual placed on the website (you did
mention other parts of the site, so it is reasonable to hold you
accountable on this point), these speakers have excellent bass when
properly placed in a room. And when I say "excellent", I mean more
tonally accurate than almost every other speaker I've ever heard. And
again, all this should be put into the context of the price that they
are sold for. $1350 per pair is not a lot of money for speakers that
compare favorably with other audiophile approved names like B&W,
Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Epos, Proac, and dozens of other names.

Another area where you seem to have missed the boat completely was the
construction quality. The Europas have a *very* solidly built, nicely
finished cabinet which doesn't know the sound quality down a peg the way
some of the above mentioned speakers do. You did mention the speaker
terminals and the way the drivers were mounted, which is good, but I
think the overall fit and finish of the cabinet is what is most prurient.

At no point did I expect you to pose as an audio reviewer, waxing poetic
about "bloom in the midrange" or crap like that; but I do think it is
reasonable to use some common sense with respect to your own personal
experiences. You want to compare them to Klipschs? Fine, the Europas
have 1000 times the finesse that a Klipsch does. You want to compare
them to Merlins? That's fine too, if you can put it in the context of
relative size, price, and room interaction from different rooms. You
want speakers that are larger, with bigger bass and higher SPLs? That's
your prerogative, but it is reasonable to assume that you have had some
experience with speakers of this size and design contraints, AND THAT
YOU CAN PUT YOUR REMARKS IN THIS CONTEXT.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty: the Jupiter Audio Europa is one of
the most neutral and tonally accurate speakers I have heard at ANY
price. I can see these finding there way into recording studios because
of their accuracy. They play loud, but don't play exceptionally loud.
There is a definitely a moderate to moderately loud volume range where
they sound their best. The have very good resolution, but there are
speakers with more expensive drivers that have more resolution.
Unfortunately, most if not all the other speakers give up liveliness and
tonal accuracy to achieve this end. In fact, the thing that struck me
about these speakers when I was evaluating their sound quality was not
how perfect they are--every speaker has significant flaws--but how
different their set of strengths were compared to almost every other
speaker you compare them to. *That's* why I thought that I had
something special on my hands. Your mileage may vary, which is fine,
but at this point what your mileage was isn't terribly clear, and
because of this I'm disappointed.

trotsky doth rant:

snip

On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment.

Such are real life reviews. Some good, some bad.

Words like "lean" and
"sibilant" are always going to be seen as negative--that's just common
sense. Besides which, there is nothing the least bit "lean" or sibilant
about the Europa anyway.

You speakers are not perfect. Far from it. They also are a first attempt,
so realize that they are going to not be as good in testing as you might
think they should be/are. If I was making my first Thanksgiving dinner,
it wouldn't be nearly as good as my tenth, would it?

What you should be doing is saying - humm - so.. how can I make this
a better second generation design before it even gets out the door?

And when I say "excellent", I mean more
tonally accurate than almost every other speaker I've ever heard. And
again, all this should be put into the context of the price that they
are sold for. $1350 per pair is not a lot of money for speakers that
compare favorably with other audiophile approved names like B&W,
Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Epos, Proac, and dozens of other names.

And here you go again. You need to seriously - take your speakers to
the local shops that sell the stuff and do a side-by-side comparison.

(snip a bunch of way too touchy gheez it's just a review responses)

Let's get down to the nitty gritty: the Jupiter Audio Europa is one of
the most neutral and tonally accurate speakers I have heard at ANY
price.

I. I. I.

A pattern is developing. The whole POINT, Trotsky, is to get another
person's opinion after listening to them. Yelling that they don't
agree with you and are wrong is simply put, childish.

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky doth rant:



On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment.


Such are real life reviews. Some good, some bad.

Words like "lean" and "sibilant" are always going to be seen as
negative--that's just common sense. Besides which, there is nothing
the least bit "lean" or sibilant about the Europa anyway.


You speakers are not perfect.



Unless you pay money to hear them, you have no valid reason to say that.

trotsky wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records). In that space
and on those speakers, Billie and her accompaniment was fully formed
and it REALLY did approach real "liveness" for me (an "in-the-room"
quality). There was an "electrostatic" quality coming out of those
rather large box speakers. Holliday's voice was at just about the
correct height and placed a little left and well forward of the drums.
All of the instrumentation seemed to be where it should without having
that "imaged" quality - they seemed to occupy a space, not a point.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Europas. I have a feeling
that it's mainly influenced by the room - yet, I haven't seen this
much disparity with other things I have listened to. In the case of
the Europas, Holliday's voice appears to be coming directly out of the
left speaker. This has two problems - first, she's now a dwarf.
Second, your attention is drawn to the speaker instead of a
"disembodied" voice standing in free space. Another problem is that
she's further left than I remember. Other albums have kept the voices
closer to what I remember from other rooms, other systems (I'm
speaking especially of things that I've heard over a 10 - 20 year span
in as many as 10 different home listening rooms). I really don't know
why *this* album is so different. I'll have to listen to it again with
the Cornwalls to see if I get the same sort of displacement issues in
this room.


snip

On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment. On the one hand, I'm glad you've given the Europas a
fair listen, but on the other hand there are certain common sense issues
that I really didn't predict. For example, in this installment of your
impressions, you seem to go out of your way to take speakers that are
larger and more expensive--Klipsch Cornwalls and Merlin EXP3s--and
compare the Europas' sound to whatever those particular speakers do
best, but never once did you say in what categories my speaker beats
them. Nor did you put it in a context of price or size--the Cornwalls
are ten times the size and 10 dB more efficient--is it any wonder why
you get a larger scale sound much higher SPLs. Most people (and by
most, I mean somewhere between 95 and 100%) wouldn't even have a speaker
as large and industrial looking as the Cornwall in their house. And, as
you one goes down the list, you can be seen to go out of your way to
accentuate the negative with my speaker. Words like "lean" and
"sibilant" are always going to be seen as negative--that's just common
sense. Besides which, there is nothing the least bit "lean" or sibilant
about the Europa anyway. If you follow my placement instructions, which
can be found in the owner's manual placed on the website (you did
mention other parts of the site, so it is reasonable to hold you
accountable on this point), these speakers have excellent bass when
properly placed in a room. And when I say "excellent", I mean more
tonally accurate than almost every other speaker I've ever heard. And
again, all this should be put into the context of the price that they
are sold for. $1350 per pair is not a lot of money for speakers that
compare favorably with other audiophile approved names like B&W,
Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Epos, Proac, and dozens of other names.

Another area where you seem to have missed the boat completely was the
construction quality. The Europas have a *very* solidly built, nicely
finished cabinet which doesn't know the sound quality down a peg the way
some of the above mentioned speakers do. You did mention the speaker
terminals and the way the drivers were mounted, which is good, but I
think the overall fit and finish of the cabinet is what is most prurient.

At no point did I expect you to pose as an audio reviewer, waxing poetic
about "bloom in the midrange" or crap like that; but I do think it is
reasonable to use some common sense with respect to your own personal
experiences. You want to compare them to Klipschs? Fine, the Europas
have 1000 times the finesse that a Klipsch does. You want to compare
them to Merlins? That's fine too, if you can put it in the context of
relative size, price, and room interaction from different rooms. You
want speakers that are larger, with bigger bass and higher SPLs? That's
your prerogative, but it is reasonable to assume that you have had some
experience with speakers of this size and design contraints, AND THAT
YOU CAN PUT YOUR REMARKS IN THIS CONTEXT.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty: the Jupiter Audio Europa is one of
the most neutral and tonally accurate speakers I have heard at ANY
price. I can see these finding there way into recording studios because
of their accuracy. They play loud, but don't play exceptionally loud.
There is a definitely a moderate to moderately loud volume range where
they sound their best. The have very good resolution, but there are
speakers with more expensive drivers that have more resolution.
Unfortunately, most if not all the other speakers give up liveliness and
tonal accuracy to achieve this end. In fact, the thing that struck me
about these speakers when I was evaluating their sound quality was not
how perfect they are--every speaker has significant flaws--but how
different their set of strengths were compared to almost every other
speaker you compare them to. *That's* why I thought that I had
something special on my hands. Your mileage may vary, which is fine,
but at this point what your mileage was isn't terribly clear, and
because of this I'm disappointed.


Dave, I guess that you have been brutally honest or perhaps honestly
brutal ? )

On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 22:25:34 GMT, in rec.audio.opinion you wrote:

dave weil wrote:

Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records). In that space
and on those speakers, Billie and her accompaniment was fully formed
and it REALLY did approach real "liveness" for me (an "in-the-room"
quality). There was an "electrostatic" quality coming out of those
rather large box speakers. Holliday's voice was at just about the
correct height and placed a little left and well forward of the drums.
All of the instrumentation seemed to be where it should without having
that "imaged" quality - they seemed to occupy a space, not a point.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Europas. I have a feeling
that it's mainly influenced by the room - yet, I haven't seen this
much disparity with other things I have listened to. In the case of
the Europas, Holliday's voice appears to be coming directly out of the
left speaker. This has two problems - first, she's now a dwarf.
Second, your attention is drawn to the speaker instead of a
"disembodied" voice standing in free space. Another problem is that
she's further left than I remember. Other albums have kept the voices
closer to what I remember from other rooms, other systems (I'm
speaking especially of things that I've heard over a 10 - 20 year span
in as many as 10 different home listening rooms). I really don't know
why *this* album is so different. I'll have to listen to it again with
the Cornwalls to see if I get the same sort of displacement issues in
this room.


snip

On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment. On the one hand, I'm glad you've given the Europas a
fair listen, but on the other hand there are certain common sense issues
that I really didn't predict. For example, in this installment of your
impressions, you seem to go out of your way to take speakers that are
larger and more expensive--Klipsch Cornwalls and Merlin EXP3s--and
compare the Europas' sound to whatever those particular speakers do
best, but never once did you say in what categories my speaker beats
them. Nor did you put it in a context of price or size--the Cornwalls
are ten times the size and 10 dB more efficient--is it any wonder why
you get a larger scale sound much higher SPLs. Most people (and by
most, I mean somewhere between 95 and 100%) wouldn't even have a speaker
as large and industrial looking as the Cornwall in their house. And, as
you one goes down the list, you can be seen to go out of your way to
accentuate the negative with my speaker. Words like "lean" and
"sibilant" are always going to be seen as negative--that's just common
sense. Besides which, there is nothing the least bit "lean" or sibilant
about the Europa anyway. If you follow my placement instructions, which
can be found in the owner's manual placed on the website (you did
mention other parts of the site, so it is reasonable to hold you
accountable on this point), these speakers have excellent bass when
properly placed in a room. And when I say "excellent", I mean more
tonally accurate than almost every other speaker I've ever heard. And
again, all this should be put into the context of the price that they
are sold for. $1350 per pair is not a lot of money for speakers that
compare favorably with other audiophile approved names like B&W,
Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Epos, Proac, and dozens of other names.

Another area where you seem to have missed the boat completely was the
construction quality. The Europas have a *very* solidly built, nicely
finished cabinet which doesn't know the sound quality down a peg the way
some of the above mentioned speakers do. You did mention the speaker
terminals and the way the drivers were mounted, which is good, but I
think the overall fit and finish of the cabinet is what is most prurient.

At no point did I expect you to pose as an audio reviewer, waxing poetic
about "bloom in the midrange" or crap like that; but I do think it is
reasonable to use some common sense with respect to your own personal
experiences. You want to compare them to Klipschs? Fine, the Europas
have 1000 times the finesse that a Klipsch does. You want to compare
them to Merlins? That's fine too, if you can put it in the context of
relative size, price, and room interaction from different rooms. You
want speakers that are larger, with bigger bass and higher SPLs? That's
your prerogative, but it is reasonable to assume that you have had some
experience with speakers of this size and design contraints, AND THAT
YOU CAN PUT YOUR REMARKS IN THIS CONTEXT.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty: the Jupiter Audio Europa is one of
the most neutral and tonally accurate speakers I have heard at ANY
price. I can see these finding there way into recording studios because
of their accuracy. They play loud, but don't play exceptionally loud.
There is a definitely a moderate to moderately loud volume range where
they sound their best. The have very good resolution, but there are
speakers with more expensive drivers that have more resolution.
Unfortunately, most if not all the other speakers give up liveliness and
tonal accuracy to achieve this end. In fact, the thing that struck me
about these speakers when I was evaluating their sound quality was not
how perfect they are--every speaker has significant flaws--but how
different their set of strengths were compared to almost every other
speaker you compare them to. *That's* why I thought that I had
something special on my hands. Your mileage may vary, which is fine,
but at this point what your mileage was isn't terribly clear, and
because of this I'm disappointed.

Whatever. Let me know who to send them to next and have them picked up
immediately. I'm finished with them.

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:51:13 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

Dave, I guess that you have been brutally honest or perhaps honestly
brutal ? )

I called it as I saw it.

Apparently he didn't want to wait for the actual comparison between
the Klipsches and his speakers, which could have been done almost as
an A/B. I had my own ideas about how the two speakers would have
faired (and the Allisons as well, but we'll never know, now will we?)

As to the Merlin thing, I think I mentioned that they are large boxes
and they were set up in a much larger room, *and*, I've mentioned in
the past that they were $3500 - 4000 a pair. He seems to have missed
that part.

I'm sorry Greg is disappointed. But I didn't go into this to make him
happy, or stroke his ego, or validate his opinions of his speakers.

Having said that, I *still* think it's ****ed up that people like Joe,
Mike, Scott and Arnold have nothing better to do than to trash
someone's work simply because they don't like the creator of the work.
Awfully petty, if you ask me. Maybe they should try actually
listening.

The speakers are now boxed up and waiting for the UPS man and I've now
put them out of my mind.

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:51:13 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


Dave, I guess that you have been brutally honest or perhaps honestly
brutal ? )


I called it as I saw it.

Apparently he didn't want to wait for the actual comparison between
the Klipsches and his speakers, which could have been done almost as
an A/B. I had my own ideas about how the two speakers would have
faired (and the Allisons as well, but we'll never know, now will we?)

As to the Merlin thing, I think I mentioned that they are large boxes
and they were set up in a much larger room, *and*, I've mentioned in
the past that they were $3500 - 4000 a pair. He seems to have missed
that part.

I'm sorry Greg is disappointed. But I didn't go into this to make him
happy, or stroke his ego, or validate his opinions of his speakers.

Having said that, I *still* think it's ****ed up that people like Joe,
Mike, Scott and Arnold have nothing better to do than to trash
someone's work simply because they don't like the creator of the work.
Awfully petty, if you ask me. Maybe they should try actually
listening.

The speakers are now boxed up and waiting for the UPS man and I've now
put them out of my mind.

Between you and me the story was already written. ;-)

I agree with the above but the man is not really "sane" and I sincerely
don't think that he is able to produce anything good on a regular basis.

I just think that you have been a little bit "mild" to accept the job.
You cannot have honest relations with such guy.

Lionel

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:28:34 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:51:13 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


Dave, I guess that you have been brutally honest or perhaps honestly
brutal ? )


I called it as I saw it.

Apparently he didn't want to wait for the actual comparison between
the Klipsches and his speakers, which could have been done almost as
an A/B. I had my own ideas about how the two speakers would have
faired (and the Allisons as well, but we'll never know, now will we?)

As to the Merlin thing, I think I mentioned that they are large boxes
and they were set up in a much larger room, *and*, I've mentioned in
the past that they were $3500 - 4000 a pair. He seems to have missed
that part.

I'm sorry Greg is disappointed. But I didn't go into this to make him
happy, or stroke his ego, or validate his opinions of his speakers.

Having said that, I *still* think it's ****ed up that people like Joe,
Mike, Scott and Arnold have nothing better to do than to trash
someone's work simply because they don't like the creator of the work.
Awfully petty, if you ask me. Maybe they should try actually
listening.

The speakers are now boxed up and waiting for the UPS man and I've now
put them out of my mind.

Between you and me the story was already written. ;-)

I agree with the above but the man is not really "sane" and I sincerely
don't think that he is able to produce anything good on a regular basis.

I just think that you have been a little bit "mild" to accept the job.
You cannot have honest relations with such guy.

Sorry, I disagree. It was an interesting experience checking out his
speakers.

You might do well to lose the chip on your shoulder.

dave weil wrote:
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 01:28:34 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


dave weil wrote:


On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 00:51:13 +0200, Lionel
wrote:



Dave, I guess that you have been brutally honest or perhaps honestly
brutal ? )


I called it as I saw it.

Apparently he didn't want to wait for the actual comparison between
the Klipsches and his speakers, which could have been done almost as
an A/B. I had my own ideas about how the two speakers would have
faired (and the Allisons as well, but we'll never know, now will we?)

As to the Merlin thing, I think I mentioned that they are large boxes
and they were set up in a much larger room, *and*, I've mentioned in
the past that they were $3500 - 4000 a pair. He seems to have missed
that part.

I'm sorry Greg is disappointed. But I didn't go into this to make him
happy, or stroke his ego, or validate his opinions of his speakers.

Having said that, I *still* think it's ****ed up that people like Joe,
Mike, Scott and Arnold have nothing better to do than to trash
someone's work simply because they don't like the creator of the work.
Awfully petty, if you ask me. Maybe they should try actually
listening.

The speakers are now boxed up and waiting for the UPS man and I've now
put them out of my mind.

Between you and me the story was already written. ;-)

I agree with the above but the man is not really "sane" and I sincerely
don't think that he is able to produce anything good on a regular basis.

I just think that you have been a little bit "mild" to accept the job.
You cannot have honest relations with such guy.


Sorry, I disagree. It was an interesting experience checking out his
speakers.

You might do well to lose the chip on your shoulder.


Don't be sorry, Dave, I imagine that this test has been an interesting
and fun experience.
I don't want to mark down your pleasure but I haven't any chip on my
shoulder.

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:50:14 +0200, Lionel
wrote:

I don't want to mark down your pleasure but I haven't any chip on my
shoulder.

Sure you do. Why, I'm not sure. Unless you've been around a lot longer
than you let on...

....hmmm

Langis wrote:




I wish you could get them over here Greg, my JM Labs and Epos would
make for a good direct comparison being as they are similar in size
and frequency response. The prices aren't a million miles out either.
Let me know if you ship any to the UK!



I'll be happy to ship you a pair in the near future. I think I'll
auction the pair that dave has on Audiogon and then build a new pair
with better internal wiring. I'll keep you posted.

trotsky wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky doth rant:



On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment.


Such are real life reviews. Some good, some bad.

Words like "lean" and "sibilant" are always going to be seen as
negative--that's just common sense. Besides which, there is nothing
the least bit "lean" or sibilant about the Europa anyway.


You speakers are not perfect.


Unless you pay money to hear them, you have no valid reason to say that.

Now I *KNOW* you are delusional.

No, and I mean no product that comes to market is as good as it can
possibly be the first time out. Everything in life can be adjusted and
improved upon.

dave weil wrote:

On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 02:50:14 +0200, Lionel
wrote:


I don't want to mark down your pleasure but I haven't any chip on my
shoulder.


Sure you do. Why, I'm not sure. Unless you've been around a lot longer
than you let on...

...hmmm

Have done this stupid exercise to prove you that you are still alive
after being around too much longer ?
....hmmm

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky wrote:

Joseph Oberlander wrote:

trotsky doth rant:



On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment.


Such are real life reviews. Some good, some bad.

Words like "lean" and "sibilant" are always going to be seen as
negative--that's just common sense. Besides which, there is nothing
the least bit "lean" or sibilant about the Europa anyway.


You speakers are not perfect.



Unless you pay money to hear them, you have no valid reason to say that.


Now I *KNOW* you are delusional.

No, and I mean no product that comes to market is as good as it can
possibly be the first time out. Everything in life can be adjusted and
improved upon.



Which JBL and Tannoy models are you referring to, hypocrite?

"trotsky" wrote in message
link.net...
dave weil wrote:

Continuing the specific musical reference section:

One revalatory experience for me listening to my Merlin EXP3s at my
previous address (in a much larger space of course) was playing Billie
Holliday's Song for Disingue Lovers (Classic Records). In that space
and on those speakers, Billie and her accompaniment was fully formed
and it REALLY did approach real "liveness" for me (an "in-the-room"
quality). There was an "electrostatic" quality coming out of those
rather large box speakers. Holliday's voice was at just about the
correct height and placed a little left and well forward of the drums.
All of the instrumentation seemed to be where it should without having
that "imaged" quality - they seemed to occupy a space, not a point.
Unfortunately, this isn't the case with the Europas. I have a feeling
that it's mainly influenced by the room - yet, I haven't seen this
much disparity with other things I have listened to. In the case of
the Europas, Holliday's voice appears to be coming directly out of the
left speaker. This has two problems - first, she's now a dwarf.
Second, your attention is drawn to the speaker instead of a
"disembodied" voice standing in free space. Another problem is that
she's further left than I remember. Other albums have kept the voices
closer to what I remember from other rooms, other systems (I'm
speaking especially of things that I've heard over a 10 - 20 year span
in as many as 10 different home listening rooms). I really don't know
why *this* album is so different. I'll have to listen to it again with
the Cornwalls to see if I get the same sort of displacement issues in
this room.


snip

On the whole, dave, this is starting to be something of a
disappointment. On the one hand, I'm glad you've given the Europas a
fair listen, but on the other hand there are certain common sense issues
that I really didn't predict. For example, in this installment of your
impressions, you seem to go out of your way to take speakers that are
larger and more expensive--Klipsch Cornwalls and Merlin EXP3s--and
compare the Europas' sound to whatever those particular speakers do
best, but never once did you say in what categories my speaker beats
them. Nor did you put it in a context of price or size--the Cornwalls
are ten times the size and 10 dB more efficient--is it any wonder why
you get a larger scale sound much higher SPLs. Most people (and by
most, I mean somewhere between 95 and 100%) wouldn't even have a speaker
as large and industrial looking as the Cornwall in their house. And, as
you one goes down the list, you can be seen to go out of your way to
accentuate the negative with my speaker. Words like "lean" and
"sibilant" are always going to be seen as negative--that's just common
sense. Besides which, there is nothing the least bit "lean" or sibilant
about the Europa anyway.

Nice unbiased report from the pseudo designer.

If you follow my placement instructions, which
can be found in the owner's manual placed on the website (you did
mention other parts of the site, so it is reasonable to hold you
accountable on this point), these speakers have excellent bass when
properly placed in a room. And when I say "excellent", I mean more
tonally accurate than almost every other speaker I've ever heard.

But you can't hear worth ****.

And
again, all this should be put into the context of the price that they
are sold for. $1350 per pair is not a lot of money for speakers that
compare favorably with other audiophile approved names like B&W,
Dynaudio, Monitor Audio, Epos, Proac, and dozens of other names.

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha! Now you have indeed gone round the bend. You
truly are an egomaniacal asshole.


Another area where you seem to have missed the boat completely was the
construction quality. The Europas have a *very* solidly built, nicely
finished cabinet which doesn't know the sound quality down a peg the way
some of the above mentioned speakers do. You did mention the speaker
terminals and the way the drivers were mounted, which is good, but I
think the overall fit and finish of the cabinet is what is most prurient.

At no point did I expect you to pose as an audio reviewer, waxing poetic
about "bloom in the midrange" or crap like that; but I do think it is
reasonable to use some common sense with respect to your own personal
experiences. You want to compare them to Klipschs? Fine, the Europas
have 1000 times the finesse that a Klipsch does. You want to compare
them to Merlins? That's fine too, if you can put it in the context of
relative size, price, and room interaction from different rooms. You
want speakers that are larger, with bigger bass and higher SPLs? That's
your prerogative, but it is reasonable to assume that you have had some
experience with speakers of this size and design contraints, AND THAT
YOU CAN PUT YOUR REMARKS IN THIS CONTEXT.

Let's get down to the nitty gritty: the Jupiter Audio Europa is one of
the most neutral and tonally accurate speakers I have heard at ANY
price.

Then you probably need to get out more or have your hearing checked.

I can see these finding there way into recording studios because
of their accuracy. They play loud, but don't play exceptionally loud.

Then they'd be of no use.

There is a definitely a moderate to moderately loud volume range where
they sound their best. The have very good resolution, but there are
speakers with more expensive drivers that have more resolution.

And can be bought for around the same price or less.

Unfortunately, most if not all the other speakers give up liveliness and
tonal accuracy to achieve this end.

OSAF!

In fact, the thing that struck me
about these speakers when I was evaluating their sound quality was not
how perfect they are--every speaker has significant flaws--but how
different their set of strengths were compared to almost every other
speaker you compare them to. *That's* why I thought that I had
something special on my hands.

Couldn't possibly be wishful thinking and/or laziness since you did almost
no actual design yourself, could it?

Your mileage may vary, which is fine,
but at this point what your mileage was isn't terribly clear, and
because of this I'm disappointed.

Much like anybody who would be idiot enough to spend 1300 bucks for a
$350.00 speaker and then had to contend with your temper when they return
them because they suck.