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Iain Churches[_2_] Iain Churches[_2_] is offline
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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later


You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.

It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.

There is no denying that audiophiles are a pretty odd
bunch, and when they get some wild idea into their
head, it is sometimes difficult to dissuade them with
just common sense. As an experienced design engineer
you might be able to deal with these questions in a
better way.

Over to you.

Best regards
Iain


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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later


You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry


Angry ? It amused me actually.

You can hardly get angry about West. His posts are like random noise in
the aether. Entirely free of any content of value.

Graham

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Trevor Wilson[_2_] Trevor Wilson[_2_] is offline
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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later


You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.


**There you go again. Do I really need to explain to you again that skin
effect reaches down to ALL frequencies above DC? Even power companies (whose
product operates at 50/60Hz) have to deal with skin effect. Skin effect at
20kHz is significant (approximately 0.5mm depth), given long enough cables
and low enough impedances. In any case, of FAR more more significance are
the inductive effects of speaker cables, particularly WRT long cables and/or
when using ESLs. In the case of some ESLs, even very modest cable runs (10
Metres) will benefit from using low inductance cables, rather than the very
high inductance product sold as 'zip' cable in the US. I lump all standard
cables in with this description, BTW. Cables like Goertz, standard high
power coax and others exhibit significantly lower inductance figures and may
be very beneficial with some speakers. Dismissing them, without discussing
their benefits for some listeners is just intellectual bankruptcy on your
part.

BTW: The claims made for Shakti Stones are not interesting at all. They're
just stupid.


It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


**Not possible with you, Iain. Despite things like skin effect and and
inductance (of speaker cables) being explained to you many times, you STILL
forget the ramifications with monotonous regularity. Why is that?

Trevor Wilson


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West West is offline
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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later


You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.

It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.

There is no denying that audiophiles are a pretty odd
bunch, and when they get some wild idea into their
head, it is sometimes difficult to dissuade them with
just common sense. As an experienced design engineer
you might be able to deal with these questions in a
better way.

Over to you.

Best regards
Iain


Hello Iain,
I am pleased for you comments, Iain. It's because I didn't take your advice
that I find myself embroiled in this fiasco. I am sure you know that I never
had an unkind thing to say to anyone until few months ago. I was gone from
RAT for quite a spell and then decided to pose a technical question. This
guy Peter Wieck, whom I didn't even know who he was, attacked me
relentlessly because "he didn't like my question and felt that I was trying
to take over this group" With my limited knowledge compared to a Patrick or
yourself, that would be a remarkable accomplishment. Then came along his
apparent partner in these bullying attempts who said that I should try the
experiment myself instead of bothering the group and picked up any attack
gaps that Peter left open. They didn't like it so much when I fought back.
I'm sure you remember. You advised me to simply ignore them. However their
attacks were relentless, so I gave in and started to engage and defend
myself from the countless personal insults and lies. I consider them to have
won because they accomplished in making me somewhat like themselves, dirty
and guilty of contributing to the noise level. At present, I do not like
myself and deeply regret that I didn't listen to you. Oh well as they say..
live and learn.
west


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"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later

You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.


**There you go again. Do I really need to explain to you again that skin
effect reaches down to ALL frequencies above DC? Even power companies
(whose product operates at 50/60Hz) have to deal with skin effect. Skin
effect at 20kHz is significant (approximately 0.5mm depth), given long
enough cables and low enough impedances. In any case, of FAR more more
significance are the inductive effects of speaker cables, particularly WRT
long cables and/or when using ESLs. In the case of some ESLs, even very
modest cable runs (10 Metres) will benefit from using low inductance
cables, rather than the very high inductance product sold as 'zip' cable
in the US. I lump all standard cables in with this description, BTW.
Cables like Goertz, standard high power coax and others exhibit
significantly lower inductance figures and may be very beneficial with
some speakers. Dismissing them, without discussing their benefits for some
listeners is just intellectual bankruptcy on your part.

BTW: The claims made for Shakti Stones are not interesting at all. They're
just stupid.


It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


**Not possible with you, Iain. Despite things like skin effect and and
inductance (of speaker cables) being explained to you many times, you
STILL forget the ramifications with monotonous regularity. Why is that?


Hi Trevor.

Please re-read carefully what I wrote.
I am not suggesting for a moment that there is any substance
in most of these myths. I have taken part in too many tests.

Your remarks about skin effect are smoke and mirrors, but
I can see why as a salesman of high-profit bespoke cables,
you would wish things to be otherwise.

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.

Cordially,
Iain





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"West" wrote in message
news:RRhij.2881$Y63.1594@trnddc03...


I am pleased for you comments, Iain. It's because I didn't take your
advice that I find myself embroiled in this fiasco. (snip)


Hi West. It is probably of little or no consolation to you,
but you are not the first, and certainly not the last person to
find themselves in your present position.

Just to cheer you up a little, I paste below an e-mail
received earlier today. It made me smile.

(Quote)
"On whom will Graham turn his attention one he has got
rid of West? It certainly wont stop there. He surely must
complete his intellectual/ethnic cleansing while he
is about it.

Starting with Patrick, - he is too much of a threat -
knows far too much, and argues with solid facts from
practical experience. He is also too tanned and too fit,
and speaks with a funny accent. He's got to go!

Then there is Andre - too well-educated and
well-traveled by far, with superior writing skills.
Besides which, he actually builds tube amps.
We can't have that! Out!

John rarely takes anything on face value, and asks too
many pertinent questions, and fiddles about with old radios.
Can't have that either.

There are too many Ians for comfort. The three letter Ian
doesn't comply or let himself be brow-beaten, and the
four-letter one with too many vowels, well he's an ex-pat,
and keeps talking about Studer and Lewo studio
consoles which as a prof audio designer Graham
should be intimately acquainted with, but is not.
So both must go.

Al must definitely go too. He actually *enjoys* tubes.

It won't take too long before there is just Graham and
Arny. They can then sit in a small room at a baize-covered
table (with heady incense from a bowl of finely crushed
MosFets burning in one corner, and Arny's born-again
Baptist tambourine propped up against an empty bottle of
Entre deux Mers in the other) lit only by the glim of a
flea-power SET tube amp, with type 666 tubes,
connected to a pair of Lowther horns.

They can then link hands in an attempt to contact
Pinky while chanting over and over again their mantra,
their Vedic hymn, their devotional incantation - their
denigration of thermionic audio.

(end of quote)

The future looks bright, West:-)
Cordially,

Iain






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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Iain Churches wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote
"Iain Churches" wrote

It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


**Not possible with you, Iain. Despite things like skin effect and and
inductance (of speaker cables) being explained to you many times, you
STILL forget the ramifications with monotonous regularity. Why is that?


Hi Trevor.

Please re-read carefully what I wrote.
I am not suggesting for a moment that there is any substance
in most of these myths. I have taken part in too many tests.

Your remarks about skin effect are smoke and mirrors, but
I can see why as a salesman of high-profit bespoke cables,
you would wish things to be otherwise.

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.


It's tempting but I'm spending some time on this tubed mic pre-amp right now.
Another time maybe ?

Graham



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Eeyore Eeyore is offline
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Iain Churches wrote:

Then there is Andre - too well-educated and
well-traveled by far, with superior writing skills.
Besides which, he actually builds tube amps.


He means "allegedly builds tube amps" of course.

Graham

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Iain Churches wrote:

(Quote)
"On whom will Graham turn his attention one he has got
rid of West? It certainly wont stop there. He surely must
complete his intellectual/ethnic cleansing while he
is about it.


Berating the know-nothing ****wits and challenging their quasi-religious
beliefs with facts is so threatening isn't it ?

I suppose this is similar to what Darwin had to suffer.

Graham

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John Byrns John Byrns is offline
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In article ,
"Iain Churches" wrote:

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later

You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.


**There you go again. Do I really need to explain to you again that skin
effect reaches down to ALL frequencies above DC? Even power companies
(whose product operates at 50/60Hz) have to deal with skin effect. Skin
effect at 20kHz is significant (approximately 0.5mm depth), given long
enough cables and low enough impedances. In any case, of FAR more more
significance are the inductive effects of speaker cables, particularly WRT
long cables and/or when using ESLs. In the case of some ESLs, even very
modest cable runs (10 Metres) will benefit from using low inductance
cables, rather than the very high inductance product sold as 'zip' cable
in the US. I lump all standard cables in with this description, BTW.
Cables like Goertz, standard high power coax and others exhibit
significantly lower inductance figures and may be very beneficial with
some speakers. Dismissing them, without discussing their benefits for some
listeners is just intellectual bankruptcy on your part.

BTW: The claims made for Shakti Stones are not interesting at all. They're
just stupid.


It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


**Not possible with you, Iain. Despite things like skin effect and and
inductance (of speaker cables) being explained to you many times, you
STILL forget the ramifications with monotonous regularity. Why is that?


Hi Trevor.

Please re-read carefully what I wrote.
I am not suggesting for a moment that there is any substance
in most of these myths. I have taken part in too many tests.

Your remarks about skin effect are smoke and mirrors, but
I can see why as a salesman of high-profit bespoke cables,
you would wish things to be otherwise.

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.


It's not clear to me why you were hoping that Graham "would start the
thread"? From his posts in this newsgroup my impression of Graham is
that he apparently doesn't fully understand much of the information he
likes to regurgitate, and that as a result many of the conclusions he
draws are in correct.


Regards,

John Byrns

--
Surf my web pages at, http://fmamradios.com/


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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


It's tempting but I'm spending some time on this tubed mic pre-amp right
now.
Another time maybe ?


Perhaps when you get the tube mic pre sorted out.
I too was thinking along the lines of Vortexion when I saw
your post.

I am sure you remember their approach, four channels
which rotary faders in a single cabinet, stackable for more
channels.

Their very good schematics are still floating about.

Regards
Iain



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John Byrns wrote:

"Iain Churches" wrote:

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.


It's not clear to me why you were hoping that Graham "would start the
thread"? From his posts in this newsgroup my impression of Graham is
that he apparently doesn't fully understand much of the information he
likes to regurgitate, and that as a result many of the conclusions he
draws are in correct.


At least any conclsions I draw are based on facts, not rumour, myths, religious
beliefs or fairy stories. That could explain a few things about why you come to
different conclusions.

Graham

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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


John Byrns wrote:

"Iain Churches" wrote:

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.


It's not clear to me why you were hoping that Graham "would start the
thread"? From his posts in this newsgroup my impression of Graham is
that he apparently doesn't fully understand much of the information he
likes to regurgitate, and that as a result many of the conclusions he
draws are in correct.


At least any conclsions I draw are based on facts, not rumour, myths,
religious
beliefs or fairy stories. That could explain a few things about why you
come to
different conclusions.


It is precisely the differences in approach and conclusion that
would make interesting discussion. Designers, builders, company
bean-counters,hi-fi salesmen, hobby constructors, end users all
have their view.

Regards to all

Iain




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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

(Quote)
"On whom will Graham turn his attention one he has got
rid of West? It certainly wont stop there. He surely must
complete his intellectual/ethnic cleansing while he
is about it.


Berating the know-nothing ****wits and challenging their quasi-religious
beliefs with facts is so threatening isn't it ?

I suppose this is similar to what Darwin had to suffer.


Graham, my dear fellow. Please don't compare yourself with
Darwin, or anyone else of his status. You are employed by
a company which builds DJ and karaoke equipment.

What you seem to fail to understand is that this is a
recreational group in which we discuss tube audio.
The subscribers to this group come from diverse
walks of life. Few may have your experience in
electronic design, but many of us may have
knowledge and expertise in areas of
audio/music/music reproduction in which you have
little or none.

That is one of the strengths of this forum.
Please do not, in your ignorance, let your
ego-bashing trip destroy it.

Best regards
Iain



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"John Byrns" wrote in message
...

It's not clear to me why you were hoping that Graham "would start the
thread"?


It was an attempt at diversionary diplomacy on my part, John.
If you didn't realise that, then it means I succeeded at least
in part:-)

The deep division within this group is, it seems to me
that many of the "anti" faction are keen on driving their
own agenda, at all costs.

For me, tube audio is a fascinating and rewarding hobby.
I spend my working days in the digital domain, and as
light relief very much enjoy building and listening to tube
amps. I devote as much time to this as I can, and
am probably one of the most active builders here.

From time to time, one comes into contact with diehard
audiophiles, whose questions (why have you not used
silver hook up wire? why are the switched Grayhill and not
Elma? etc) are difficult to reply to.

They never seem to ask "Why did you choose a mu-follower
for the first stage, but are greatly disturbed by the fact that you
have used a transistor as a CCS, and have neglected to
use Jensen capacitors in the signal path. Oh, and a
shielded mains cable is a must.

From his posts in this newsgroup my impression of Graham is
that he apparently doesn't fully understand much of the information he
likes to regurgitate, and that as a result many of the conclusions he
draws are in correct.


It seems from his reply, that Graham does not have the time
at the moment for this Myths and Legends thread. So it is
probably down to us lesser mortals.

Regards
Iain





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Hi RATs!

Mr. Darwin noticed some interesting patterns in his world. He did well
to describe them for others.

Perhaps he was a bit overzealous in assuming that Planet Earth is the
only place anything has ever happened, but, we all like to keep our
stories relevent, even if that does cause some incongruities.

I am old and medicated well below the level of many of the healthy
people of this planet.

Not as low as some self-glorified antagonists, but, pretty low.

Tubes, like women, may not be completely enticing to every man on
Earth. I am fortunate that I still love and serve my wife, long beyond
any simple argument or polemics. And, I still maintain cordial
communications with friends who never met that girl, nor that anyone.
Just that work ...

We are capable of joy. Perhaps some of us find it in unusal places,
perhaps we all know only a little.

I don't know that enjoying anything is a sure way to create anxiety in
some others, but, I suspect it may be.

This is the Web, which itself causes nightmares for some, on both ends
of the spectrum, and some 'naked singularities' in the central region.

I am listening to a half century old amplifier. I changed the gracious
old EL37 tubes to a hard core pair of latter day 6550. The sound is
nowhere near as wretched as in some other amps.

Perhaps talent is bringing out the best in all.

Bringing out the beast is not quite as difficult, but, all to common.

I apologize to all I have harmed. I encourage all I have insired, by
mockery or accomplishment.

I find great pleasure on many days in my life, even if it fades
quickly when I sit up, it just feels good to listen, and dream.

And, to tell the bruisers to stuff it

Happy Errors!

Al

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Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
John Byrns wrote:
"Iain Churches" wrote:

I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.

It's not clear to me why you were hoping that Graham "would start the
thread"? From his posts in this newsgroup my impression of Graham is
that he apparently doesn't fully understand much of the information he
likes to regurgitate, and that as a result many of the conclusions he
draws are in correct.


At least any conclsions I draw are based on facts, not rumour, myths,
religious beliefs or fairy stories. That could explain a few things about

why you
come to different conclusions.


It is precisely the differences in approach and conclusion that
would make interesting discussion. Designers, builders, company
bean-counters,hi-fi salesmen, hobby constructors, end users all
have their view.


As a further response to your comment I will say the following.

As computer technology has advanced, along with it the possibilities for
mathematical modelling of circuitry (which I have taken advantage of from the
very beginning), I have found that so doing has improved my understanding of
and the performance of the circuitry I have designed beyond my wildest
dreams.

Graham

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Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote in message

I suppose this is similar to what Darwin had to suffer.


Graham, my dear fellow. Please don't compare yourself with
Darwin, or anyone else of his status. You are employed by
a company which builds DJ and karaoke equipment.


NO. In as much as they ever built such kit (and it was only ever a sideline),
it was 'class leading' (along with the likes of RANE's stuff ) and introduced
professional norms to a market sector that was previously at least as bad as
so-called 'hi-fi'.

So, you'd damn me for designing BETTER DJ and karaoke kit ? What kind of
argument is that ?

I can only assume from that you have a value judgement fixation about certain
market segements that do not relate to the actual performance of the equipment
they employ. In short a value judgement based on a highly opinonated view of
your estimation of their musical value.

Heck, I'm no fan of modern 'dance music' but that's no reason to imply that
they use duff kit.

Get a life Iain.

Graham

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Iain Churches wrote:

The deep division within this group is, it seems to me
that many of the "anti" faction are keen on driving their
own agenda, at all costs.


Anti - WHAT ?

Graham

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"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...

"Trevor Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Iain Churches" wrote in message
i.fi...
"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


West wrote:

another ankle nipper. I'll deal with you later

You couldn't deal with a wet paper bag FFS !


Graham. As an alternative to wasting your time in
character assassination, which makes you angry and
the rest of us embarrassed, might I ever so 'umbly
propose that you start a new thread, on the subject
of Myths and Legends in audio.

There are so many interesting claims made, ranging
from screened mains cables and hi end speaker
cables, skin effect, etc to Shakti stones.


**There you go again. Do I really need to explain to you again that skin
effect reaches down to ALL frequencies above DC? Even power companies
(whose product operates at 50/60Hz) have to deal with skin effect. Skin
effect at 20kHz is significant (approximately 0.5mm depth), given long
enough cables and low enough impedances. In any case, of FAR more more
significance are the inductive effects of speaker cables, particularly
WRT
long cables and/or when using ESLs. In the case of some ESLs, even very
modest cable runs (10 Metres) will benefit from using low inductance
cables, rather than the very high inductance product sold as 'zip' cable
in the US. I lump all standard cables in with this description, BTW.
Cables like Goertz, standard high power coax and others exhibit
significantly lower inductance figures and may be very beneficial with
some speakers. Dismissing them, without discussing their benefits for
some
listeners is just intellectual bankruptcy on your part.

BTW: The claims made for Shakti Stones are not interesting at all.
They're
just stupid.


It would be interesting to discuss these with you, and
shoot them down in an orderly fashion without
personality bashing, flames or invective.


**Not possible with you, Iain. Despite things like skin effect and and
inductance (of speaker cables) being explained to you many times, you
STILL forget the ramifications with monotonous regularity. Why is that?


Hi Trevor.

Please re-read carefully what I wrote.


**Ok, done.

I am not suggesting for a moment that there is any substance
in most of these myths. I have taken part in too many tests.


**I know. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. Skin effect is not a
myth. It is a real, measurable electrical effect. Even power companies need
to be concerned with it and their product is one which operates at
50Hz/60Hz. Audio signals reach 20kHz. Given long enough cables, with a
suitably low termination impedance, skin effect will be measurable and
audible. More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that many exotic speaker
cables exhibit low INDUCTANCE figures. It is this characteristic which may
be very important for many users of ESLs, as even quite short cable runs (10
Metres or even less in some cases) can benefit from low inductance cables.
IMO, skin effect is not an important parameter in the vast majority of real
world systems. Inductance, OTOH, may well be very important.


Your remarks about skin effect are smoke and mirrors,


**Nope. Skin effect is a real eletrical effect. I suggest you do some
reading. It is not a mythical characteristic. It is real, measurable and
able to be demonstrated to be audible.

but
I can see why as a salesman of high-profit bespoke cables,
you would wish things to be otherwise.


**Your attempt at switching from a discussion of audio equipment to
personal attack is duly noted. Let's discuss your stupidity, shall we? You
claim that skin effect is mythical. It is not. You waffle on about audio
mythology, whilst promoting silly nonsense like SET amplifiers. Ask an
engineer to explain it to you (and I don't mean those idiots you work with -
I mean REAL engineers). An engineer can explain to you that the small, but
measurable flaws with SET amplifier (like high levels of THD, poor frequency
response, poor damping factor, lousy load tolerance, etc) are the precise
things that make them audibly different to proper amplifiers (ie: Push
pull). Wanna try to get back on topic, or will you continue to engage in
shabby personal attacks, in preference to discussing facts? Silly me: I
already know the answer. Your next words will be to engage in further and
shabbier attacks.


I was hoping that Graham, an engineer, not a BS hi-fi
salesman would start the thread.


**As soon as you acquire some knowledge about electrical theory, you will be
qualified to comment on things like skin effect, inductance and other
factors that you clearly have no knowledge of.

Trevor Wilson




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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

Iain wrote:
It is precisely the differences in approach and conclusion that
would make interesting discussion. Designers, builders, company
bean-counters,hi-fi salesmen, hobby constructors, end users all
have their view.


As a further response to your comment I will say the following.

As computer technology has advanced, along with it the possibilities for
mathematical modelling of circuitry (which I have taken advantage of from
the
very beginning), I have found that so doing has improved my understanding
of
and the performance of the circuitry I have designed beyond my wildest
dreams.


I don't doubt it for a moment. This makes the achievements of
people such as Williamson, Radford and Walker even more
remarkable. They used slide rules.

Iain



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tubegarden wrote:

Hi RATs!

Mr. Darwin noticed some interesting patterns in his world. He did well
to describe them for others.

Perhaps he was a bit overzealous in assuming that Planet Earth is the
only place anything has ever happened


Where did he say that ? That's a religious idea..

Graham

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Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote
Iain wrote:

It is precisely the differences in approach and conclusion that
would make interesting discussion. Designers, builders, company
bean-counters,hi-fi salesmen, hobby constructors, end users all
have their view.


As a further response to your comment I will say the following.

As computer technology has advanced, along with it the possibilities for
mathematical modelling of circuitry (which I have taken advantage of from
the very beginning), I have found that so doing has improved my

understanding
of and the performance of the circuitry I have designed beyond my wildest
dreams.


I don't doubt it for a moment. This makes the achievements of
people such as Williamson, Radford and Walker even more
remarkable. They used slide rules.


And the performaance of their circuits show it. They could have done so much
better with modern technology.

None of them are relevant to MODERN high-performance audio any more. They're
just a note in the references.

Graham

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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...

So, you'd damn me for designing BETTER DJ and karaoke kit ?


Not at all. But let's keep this thing in perspective.
You're our very own Eeyore not Dr Martin Jones:-)


Regards
Iain



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Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

So, you'd damn me for designing BETTER DJ and karaoke kit ?


Not at all. But let's keep this thing in perspective.
You're our very own Eeyore not Dr Martin Jones:-)


What has Martin got to do with it ? I've worked with him you know and he
wouldn't tolerate fools any more than I do .

Graham



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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:58:59 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:

snip

**I know. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. Skin effect is not a
myth. It is a real, measurable electrical effect. Even power companies
need to be concerned with it and their product is one which operates at
50Hz/60Hz.


Quite correct.

Audio signals reach 20kHz.

Also correct.

Given long enough cables, with a
suitably low termination impedance, skin effect will be measurable and
audible.


Not necessarily. Skin effect is the tendency of the signal current to
flow at, or close to, the surface of the conductor. It isn't measurable
using any normal systems and almost certainly won't be audible. Even 2
parallel conductors, exhibiting skin effect, will appear as 2 normal
stranded or solid conductors, with the same interactions between them.
Skin effect is only of real interest where high currents (think 1500A
here) make solid copper busbars very expensive or heavy. In that case
aluminium bars with a copper coating are often used, or tubular bars
(more often on HV systems). The other main problems with skin effect
appear at VHF - but you certainly ain't gonna hear that... :-)


More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that many exotic speaker
cables exhibit low INDUCTANCE figures. It is this characteristic which
may be very important for many users of ESLs, as even quite short cable
runs (10 Metres or even less in some cases) can benefit from low
inductance cables. IMO, skin effect is not an important parameter in the
vast majority of real world systems. Inductance, OTOH, may well be very
important.


Sorry, but I'm an unbeliever in speaker cable inductance - over any sane
length anyway. For me, any speaker cable over about 3m (i.e. loop length
6m) is too long and I just can't see that anything contributed by the
cable other than resistance (which is usually swamped by the speaker
impedance & amp output impedance anyway) is going to make the slightest
difference to the sound.


--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info http://mixpix.batcave.net

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On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:19:59 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

snip
They can
then sit in a small room at a baize-covered table (with heady incense
from a bowl of finely crushed MosFets burning in one corner...

snip


Brilliant! LMAO!

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info http://mixpix.batcave.net

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On Jan 13, 2:29�pm, Eeyore
wrote:

I've worked with him you know and he
wouldn't tolerate fools any more than I do .

Graham


Hi RATs!

Perhaps he suspected there were more of these putrid rocks floating
about. I don't remember him mentioning that, neither. Religion is a
human only attribute which is asynchronous from good observations.

My typing is a personal flaw which is asynchonous from my enjoyment.

Going onto a gardening forum and saying people are growing the wrong
flowers because you know of much better ways and means is not
wisdom ... it is meer posturing.

Sorry, we cannot be saved by the Truth, that is possibly a para-
religious quest. Not a Pure Quest.

Your disdain is possibly enjoyable to you, but, you are simply another
rude postcard to me

Computers do work very well, and the only time they want a raise is
when they can do more, unlike humans.

My Audio Dungeon provides mazes and unforseen rewards, free. You
provide neither, to anyone.

Not my bad

Happy Ears!
Al






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mick wrote:

Sorry, but I'm an unbeliever in speaker cable inductance


You think speaker cables don't obey the laws of physics ?

AWESOME !

You'll find good company with plenty of retarded friends in r.a.t who also
believe in fairy tales too.

Graham

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mick wrote:

For me, any speaker cable over about 3m (i.e. loop length
6m) is too long


So you don't think the laws of physics apply to cables under 6m long ?

Is that right ?

Graham



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mick wrote:

On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:19:59 +0200, Iain Churches wrote:

snip
They can
then sit in a small room at a baize-covered table (with heady incense
from a bowl of finely crushed MosFets burning in one corner...

snip

Brilliant! LMAO!


****WIT.

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tubegarden wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

I've worked with him you know and he
wouldn't tolerate fools any more than I do .

Graham


Hi RATs!


If you don't know Martin (and I'm sure you don't) then don't poke your
****ing ignorant stinky nose into this thread you worthless piece of
bigoted ****.

Graham

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"mick" wrote in message
. uk...
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 06:58:59 +1100, Trevor Wilson wrote:

snip

**I know. I'm here to tell you that you are wrong. Skin effect is not a
myth. It is a real, measurable electrical effect. Even power companies
need to be concerned with it and their product is one which operates at
50Hz/60Hz.


Quite correct.

Audio signals reach 20kHz.

Also correct.

Given long enough cables, with a
suitably low termination impedance, skin effect will be measurable and
audible.


Not necessarily.


**Perhaps you missed what I wrote. Read it again. I was VERY specific with
my words. Unlike our friend Iain, I do not make blanket pronouncements which
can easily be proven incorrect.

Skin effect is the tendency of the signal current to
flow at, or close to, the surface of the conductor. It isn't measurable
using any normal systems and almost certainly won't be audible.


**Read what I wrote.

Even 2
parallel conductors, exhibiting skin effect, will appear as 2 normal
stranded or solid conductors, with the same interactions between them.
Skin effect is only of real interest where high currents (think 1500A
here) make solid copper busbars very expensive or heavy. In that case
aluminium bars with a copper coating are often used, or tubular bars
(more often on HV systems). The other main problems with skin effect
appear at VHF - but you certainly ain't gonna hear that... :-)


**For the record: I cut my teeth on HF transmission (and satellite)
transmission equipment. I am familiar with the problems and solutions. My
words stand. Iain is wrong. Skin effect is not a myth.



More importantly, perhaps, is the fact that many exotic speaker
cables exhibit low INDUCTANCE figures. It is this characteristic which
may be very important for many users of ESLs, as even quite short cable
runs (10 Metres or even less in some cases) can benefit from low
inductance cables. IMO, skin effect is not an important parameter in the
vast majority of real world systems. Inductance, OTOH, may well be very
important.


Sorry, but I'm an unbeliever in speaker cable inductance - over any sane
length anyway. For me, any speaker cable over about 3m (i.e. loop length
6m) is too long and I just can't see that anything contributed by the
cable other than resistance (which is usually swamped by the speaker
impedance & amp output impedance anyway) is going to make the slightest
difference to the sound.


**I suggest you brush up on your electrical theory. My first experience with
the effects of speaker cables was in 1978. My client had quite long cable
runs (ca. 12-15 Metres) and speakers which exhibited rather difficult HF
impedance. Substituting low inductance cable made a substantial improvement
to the system. After some considerable effort, I placed the amplifiers under
the floor, directly beneath each speaker. The improvement was even more
pronounced.

Trevor Wilson


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Trevor Wilson wrote:

After some considerable effort, I placed the amplifiers under
the floor, directly beneath each speaker. The improvement was even more
pronounced.


If only more people would accept the concept of 'active speakers' the nonsense
with speaker cables could be entirely eliminated.

Graham

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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Trevor Wilson wrote:

After some considerable effort, I placed the amplifiers under
the floor, directly beneath each speaker. The improvement was even more
pronounced.


If only more people would accept the concept of 'active speakers' the
nonsense
with speaker cables could be entirely eliminated.


**No argument from me.

Trevor Wilson




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"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

**For the record: I cut my teeth on HF transmission (and
satellite) transmission equipment. I am familiar with the
problems and solutions. My words stand. Iain is wrong.
Skin effect is not a myth.


It's pretty irrelevant in the normal audio band, with well-designed
speakers.

Inductance is usally far more signficant, which is not to say that it is
often audibly significant.


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"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..
"Trevor Wilson" wrote
in message

**For the record: I cut my teeth on HF transmission (and
satellite) transmission equipment. I am familiar with the
problems and solutions. My words stand. Iain is wrong.
Skin effect is not a myth.


It's pretty irrelevant in the normal audio band, with well-designed
speakers.


**Read what I wrote. Skin effect is not a myth.


Inductance is usally far more signficant, which is not to say that it is
often audibly significant.


**Read what I wrote.

Trevor Wilson


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"Eeyore" wrote in
message
Trevor Wilson wrote:

After some considerable effort, I placed the amplifiers
under
the floor, directly beneath each speaker. The
improvement was even more pronounced.


If only more people would accept the concept of 'active
speakers' the nonsense with speaker cables could be
entirely eliminated.


The requirement of two cables per speaker, and surrendering amplifier choice
are problems for most audiophiles.

For example, Paradigm developed and marketed some very credible powered
speakers, and dropped them for lack of interest.


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On Jan 13, 3:21�pm, Eeyore
wrote:

If you don't know Martin (and I'm sure you don't) then don't poke your
****ing ignorant stinky nose into this thread you worthless piece of
bigoted ****.

Graham


Hi RATs!

Martin is your story, I am responding to your sure knowledge of
Charles Darwin's cosmology, you pretentious technocrat wannabe.

I am a happy tube hobbyist.

You are a dismal EE pathogen.

You did not start the group, nor were you here before me.

Your arrogance is not your only problem.

If you think insulting people for having a hobby which is nearly as
dismal as your profession, fine.

Please, do not think that means we must abandon this NG to your vulgar
nonsense.

You never share any useful tube stories or information.

You only attack happy tube hobbyists.

And try and pretend there is pride in Karaoke achievements.

Drunken Japanese businessmen may love your spittle.

I do not.

If you can't help us enjoy using tubes for audio, and it appears you
are not here to learn, you are just another stupid Web thug.

But, we will just endure your stupid bombast.

Tubes are still a fine recreation for audio.

You are just a grouchy Brit who thinks his hats keep shrinking ...

Happy Ears!
Al



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"Eeyore" wrote in message
...


Iain Churches wrote:

"Eeyore" wrote

So, you'd damn me for designing BETTER DJ and karaoke kit ?


Not at all. But let's keep this thing in perspective.
You're our very own Eeyore not Dr Martin Jones:-)


What has Martin got to do with it ? I've worked with him you know and he
wouldn't tolerate fools any more than I do .

Graham

That' a revealing statement you made about not tolerating fools. It's
probably why you occasionally throw snippets at me and others. You think I
am a fool...and you know, you're right. I am a fool in many ways about tube
electronics. We all are fools in different areas. However, this is not a
work place and you are not a supervisor. Why the low tolerance? Is this not
a hobby NG? Did you have a professor or supervisor who wouldn't tolerate
foolishness from you while you were learning your trade? Perhaps a parent?
Correct mistakes, but don't be intolerant to those inferior to you in this
very narrow and specialized area of technology and even narrower area of
life. One of the main reason you learned your trade is because of the many
tolerant instructors along your path. Now it's time for you to lighten up,
dude!

west


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