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#1
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
Hi,
I would like to be able to use the "rewind" function when playing audio files in windows xp. I recorded some lectures with my Zoom H2 and would like to be able to rewind the lectures when I miss something. I would like to do this with my Keyspan remote control from a distance without having to get up everytime to move the slider back. I tried using windows media player to do this, but there is no rewind function (it's greyed out). Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. Thanks alot, Marc |
#2
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
Soundhaspriority wrote: "Marc" wrote in message Hi, I would like to be able to use the "rewind" function when playing audio files in windows xp. I recorded some lectures with my Zoom H2 and would like to be able to rewind the lectures when I miss something. I would like to do this with my Keyspan remote control from a distance without having to get up everytime to move the slider back. I tried using windows media player to do this, but there is no rewind function (it's greyed out). Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. In your title, you ask "why", so here's an explanation. There are two reasons: 1. MPEG is very clever; it records two different types of data. An "iframe" is a snapshot of the wave, and a "jframe" is an incremental difference, which takes much less storage than the information in the iframe. Every so many frames, a new iframe is written. If there were a rewind buttom, the software would have to interpret jframes that require a jframe many frames back, plus all the iframes leading up to this point. A software program that responsively implements a rewind buttom would require a very fast processor. I have not looked at the computational load of doing this, so I do not have a definitive answer as to whether it can actually be done. Certainly, dedicated chips could provide this functionality. But since mpeg is a "delivery medium", not an "editing medium", the conventional pov is that what you want is not widely desired. 2. A flash based recorder has a little OS inside it, and it creates files. All of the computer OSes in the world are designed to read files in the forward direction. Even when a compiler library seems to provide "random access", it's really a simulation. In order to natively read files backwards, a recorder would have to maintain files as a doubly linked list. This could be done, but the FAT file system, which so conveniently allows flash to be read by recorders and all kinds of computers, could not be used. It would have to be a proprietary file system. Nevertheless, programs do exist, typically DAW editors, that allow "scrubbing" an audio timeline representing WAV files in both directions. The complexity has resulted in the omission of this feature in "players." Interesting explanation Bob. I'd never really stopped to think about it before. Obviously not a problem with wav files. And as semiconductor and other memory grows, maybe mp3's time will one day be finished. Graham |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On Oct 19, 3:06*pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Marc" wrote in message ... Hi, I would like to be able to use the "rewind" function when playing audio files in windows xp. I recorded some lectures with my Zoom H2 and would like to be able to rewind the lectures when I miss something. I would like to do this with my Keyspan remote control from a distance without having to get up everytime to move the slider back. I tried using windows media player to do this, but there is no rewind function (it's greyed out). Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" *button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. Thanks alot, Marc In your title, you ask "why", so here's an explanation. There are two reasons: 1. MPEG is very clever; it records two different types of data. An "iframe" is a snapshot of the wave, and a "jframe" is an incremental difference, which takes much less storage than the information in the iframe. Every so many frames, a new iframe is written. If there were a rewind buttom, the software would have to interpret jframes that require a jframe many frames back, plus all the iframes leading up to this point. A software program that responsively implements a rewind buttom would require a very fast processor. I have not looked at the computational load of doing this, so I do not have a definitive answer as to whether it can actually be done. Certainly, dedicated chips could provide this functionality. But since mpeg is a "delivery medium", not an "editing medium", the conventional pov is that what you want is not widely desired. 2. A flash based recorder has a little OS inside it, and it creates files.. All of the computer OSes in the world are designed to read files in the forward direction. Even when a compiler library seems to provide "random access", it's really a simulation. In order to natively read files backwards, a recorder would have to maintain files as a doubly linked list. |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
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#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Soundhaspriority" wrote ...
In your title, you ask "why", so here's an explanation. There are two reasons: 1. MPEG is very clever; it records two different types of data. An "iframe" is a snapshot of the wave, and a "jframe" is an incremental difference, which takes much less storage than the information in the iframe. Every so many frames, a new iframe is written. If there were a rewind buttom, the software would have to interpret jframes that require a jframe many frames back, plus all the iframes leading up to this point. A software program that responsively implements a rewind buttom would require a very fast processor. I have not looked at the computational load of doing this, so I do not have a definitive answer as to whether it can actually be done. Certainly, dedicated chips could provide this functionality. But since mpeg is a "delivery medium", not an "editing medium", the conventional pov is that what you want is not widely desired. 2. A flash based recorder has a little OS inside it, and it creates files. All of the computer OSes in the world are designed to read files in the forward direction. Even when a compiler library seems to provide "random access", it's really a simulation. In order to natively read files backwards, a recorder would have to maintain files as a doubly linked list. This could be done, but the FAT file system, which so conveniently allows flash to be read by recorders and all kinds of computers, could not be used. It would have to be a proprietary file system. Nevertheless, programs do exist, typically DAW editors, that allow "scrubbing" an audio timeline representing WAV files in both directions. The complexity has resulted in the omission of this feature in "players." While those are both interesting theories, I don;t think that either of them is a show-stopper in real life. Any software smart enough to decode MP3 in real-time is ipso-facto smart enough to find the nearest "iframe". Regardless of which direction or speed. I think there are two more fundamental reasons... 1) "Perhaps makers of free and low-cost players don't include the function perhaps as a distinguishing feature from their higher- end wares. 2) What exactly does "rewind' mean/do in a non-linear world? There are almost as many different notions of what "Rewind" should do as there are implementations of it. Should it start playing backwards (emulating tape)? At what speed should it run? For how long? Should it skip back some fixed amount of time? How long? Should it be proportional to the length of the clip? Should it go back to the beginning of the clip? There have been situations where I wanted each of those different functionality, but AFAIK, there are NO applications that allow you to specify any of the parameters of "Rewind" if it is even supported at all. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 19 Oct 2008, Marc wrote in
rec.audio.pro: Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. iTunes does, Winamp does, Foobar2000 does. iPod does, my old Archos mp3 player does. I think most software and hardware players do. I don't know why WMP doesn't, but this is just one more reason I won't touch it. |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Nil" wrote ...
Marc wrote in : Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. .... iPod does, Then perhaps you should describe what YOU mean by "rewind button"? This was exactly my point about the definition being ambiguous in the non-linear world. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 20 Oct 2008, "Richard Crowley" wrote in
rec.audio.pro: Then perhaps you should describe what YOU mean by "rewind button"? Why should I do that? That wasn't the question. He asked why audio file players don't have a rewind function and I mentioned some that do. But FYI, the rewind button in all the examples I cited make the music back up, much like the rewind control on a tape machine. |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Nil" wrote in message ... On 20 Oct 2008, "Richard Crowley" wrote in rec.audio.pro: Then perhaps you should describe what YOU mean by "rewind button"? Why should I do that? That wasn't the question. He asked why audio file players don't have a rewind function and I mentioned some that do. But FYI, the rewind button in all the examples I cited make the music back up, much like the rewind control on a tape machine. Winamp doesn't do that at all. It doesn't have a rewind button, just the cursor bar which you can pick up and move back. It will jump back to a place determined by Winamp, fade out the music playing and then fade in from the new selected point. Thats not a rewind button at all. Gareth. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On Oct 19, 3:49*pm, "Soundhaspriority" wrote:
"Richard Crowley" wrote in message . .. "Soundhaspriority" wrote ... In your title, you ask "why", so here's an explanation. There are two reasons: 1. MPEG is very clever; it records two different types of data. An "iframe" is a snapshot of the wave, and a "jframe" is an incremental difference, which takes much less storage than the information in the iframe. Every so many frames, a new iframe is written. If there were a rewind buttom, the software would have to interpret jframes that require a jframe many frames back, plus all the iframes leading up to this point. |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Marc" wrote in message
I would like to be able to use the "rewind" function when playing audio files in windows xp. Rewind means going back to the beginning of the file. Most players will do this if you hit the stop, rather than the pause button. I recorded some lectures with my Zoom H2 and would like to be able to rewind the lectures when I miss something. Oh, you want a backspace function. I would like to do this with my Keyspan remote control from a distance without having to get up everytime to move the slider back. Your remote control is deficient in that it won't control a very important control, the slider. I tried using windows media player to do this, but there is no rewind function (it's greyed out). When a control is present but greyed out, this is nature's way of telling you that the codec for the particular kind of media being played did not implement the function. These days media players are train stations, not trains. They are incomplete all by themselves - they are dependent on other programs that they find dynamically when they try to open the file you want to play. Playing media on a computer is actually chaotic and uncontrolled. You don't know for sure what software actually plays a file without some detailed analysis. Furthermore, its not just one piece of software in many cases, but a stack of different pieces of software. Do audio software exist which provide the "rewind" button when playing mp3,.wav, or any other kind of audio files. Other posters have pointed out a number of players that have some kind of backspace function. But you're right, this feature is very convenient and often not implemented. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
Gareth Magennis schreef:
"Nil" wrote in message ... On 20 Oct 2008, "Richard Crowley" wrote in rec.audio.pro: Then perhaps you should describe what YOU mean by "rewind button"? Why should I do that? That wasn't the question. He asked why audio file players don't have a rewind function and I mentioned some that do. But FYI, the rewind button in all the examples I cited make the music back up, much like the rewind control on a tape machine. Winamp doesn't do that at all. It doesn't have a rewind button, just the cursor bar which you can pick up and move back. It will jump back to a place determined by Winamp, fade out the music playing and then fade in from the new selected point. Thats not a rewind button at all. Pressing the left and right arrow keys will rewind or fast forward by 5 seconds. True, there is no corresponding button on the screen. Jos. -- Ardis Park Music www.ardispark.nl |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
Marc wrote:
I would like to be able to use the "rewind" function when playing audio files in windows xp. I recorded some lectures with my Zoom H2 and would like to be able to rewind the lectures when I miss something. The H2 is meant to be a recorder, with the intent that you'll copy the file to something else and play it back there, other than to do a quick check to see that you've recorded something. I believe that you'll find the "jump back a bit" button on recorders that are meant for recording speech rather than music, and anticipate that the program will be played back on the recorder. What you want is a "memo" recorder, not a music recorder like the Zoom H2. Manufacturers have to choose the features that they incorporate into a product in order to both limit their cost and not make it too complicated for what they think will be the target user. The way the user interface on the H2 is designed, it would almost be necessary to add another button to provide the "rewind" function. You wouldn't want to have to go to a menu for it. I haven't gone through the full feature set yet, but if you want that feature as well as having a decent music recorder, you might look at TASCAM's new version of their handy recorder that's designed to be a guitarist's learning and working tool. It incorporates many of TASCAM's "trainer" functions, so it might be able to quickly jump back and repeat a section. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 20 Oct 2008, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote in rec.audio.pro: Winamp doesn't do that at all. It doesn't have a rewind button, just the cursor bar which you can pick up and move back. It will jump back to a place determined by Winamp, fade out the music playing and then fade in from the new selected point. Thats not a rewind button at all. OK, you're right, I misremembered, there is no button. However, I always use the left and right arrow keys, which will fast-forward and rewind the file. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 20 Oct 2008, "Gareth Magennis"
wrote in rec.audio.pro: Winamp doesn't do that at all. It doesn't have a rewind button, just the cursor bar which you can pick up and move back. I use MP3 Direct Cut now and then and it has buttons to jump back and forward by preset times. Kind of handy when I decide that the place to cut the file is 20 or 30 seconds ago. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Nil" wrote ...
, "Gareth Magennis" wrote : Winamp doesn't do that at all. It doesn't have a rewind button, just the cursor bar which you can pick up and move back. It will jump back to a place determined by Winamp, fade out the music playing and then fade in from the new selected point. Thats not a rewind button at all. OK, you're right, I misremembered, there is no button. However, I always use the left and right arrow keys, which will fast-forward and rewind the file. You misremembered about iPod as well. There is no "rewind" function, button, or control on a standard iPod user interface. There is a button/function to skip back to the beginning of the file. And the same button will skip back to the previous file. There is also a slew function where you can position the read point within the file (in either direction). But neither of these functions can be called "rewind" with any expectation that an audio professional would recognize. This is exactly what I meant by no definition of "rewind" in the non-linear world. "Nil" illustrates perfectly what I'm saying. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 20 Oct 2008, "Richard Crowley" wrote in
rec.audio.pro: You misremembered about iPod as well. There is no "rewind" function, button, or control on a standard iPod user interface. There is a button/function to skip back to the beginning of the file. And the same button will skip back to the previous file. There is also a slew function where you can position the read point within the file (in either direction). But neither of these functions can be called "rewind" with any expectation that an audio professional would recognize. First of all, "audio professional" has nothing to do with it. Second, yes there is: pressing and releasing the left arrow on an iPod will rewind the file to the beginning. Pressing and holding the left arrow button on an iPod will rewind the audio file to any earlier point within the file. That is what the original poster was asking about. What's with the snotty attitude? |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Nil" wrote ...
First of all, "audio professional" has nothing to do with it. Second, yes there is: pressing and releasing the left arrow on an iPod will rewind the file to the beginning. Pressing and holding the left arrow button on an iPod will rewind the audio file to any earlier point within the file. That is what the original poster was asking about. What's with the snotty attitude? Perhaps you are too young to remember what "rewind" meant back in the days of physical tape. OTOH, the ability to skip back to the beginning of the song, or to the beginning of the previous (or next) song is something that was only a kludge (at best) in the era of tape. |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
On 21 Oct 2008, "Richard Crowley" wrote in
rec.audio.pro: Perhaps you are too young to remember what "rewind" meant back in the days of physical tape. Perhaps you're wrong. How is 'pressing and holding the iPod's left arrow takes you back to any earlier part of the file' not a rewind? |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
"Nil" wrote ...
How is 'pressing and holding the iPod's left arrow takes you back to any earlier part of the file' not a rewind? I stand corrected. You are right. I never held the button down long enough to encounter the fast-forward/rewind function. That is as close to old-time tape FF/rew as we are likely to find in the non-linear era. |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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"Rewind" button in audio players why is it not available?
Richard Crowley wrote:
Perhaps you are too young to remember what "rewind" meant back in the days of physical tape. How about the videotape rental stores that fined you if you didn't rewind the tape before returning it? How soon they forget. OTOH, the ability to skip back to the beginning of the song, or to the beginning of the previous (or next) song is something that was only a kludge (at best) in the era of tape. Oh, I dunno. There were some pretty sophisticated locators out there, either designed for a specific machine or capable of learning dynamic characteristics to brake gently when approaching the locate point and park in the right place. And several professional tape decks were equipped with a shuttle control for moving the tape in either direction quickly, with or without the monkey chatter. The kludges of which you speak are likely the ones that stop winding when the counter hit zero and coasting to a stop wherever. -- If you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo -- I'm really Mike Rivers ) |
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