[Erik Washington]

Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me
if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a
timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a
very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for
long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used
to make the mix.

Thanks in advance,
Erik

[Laurence Payne[_2_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:35:43 -0400, "Erik Washington"
wrote:

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive me
if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a
timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this a
very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for
long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used
to make the mix.

Yes, this is a job for educated ears :-)

[Jos Geluk]

Erik Washington schreef:

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for
long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used
to make the mix.

Sure, let's give it a try.

Jos.

--
Ardis Park Music
www.ardispark.nl

[Scott Dorsey]

Erik Washington wrote:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or a
timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

No, but you can ask a good conductor to give the track a listen.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not for
long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific instruments used
to make the mix.

Ask your local college music department. It would be a fun exercise for
some students.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Erik Washington]

Hello again,

Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the instruments
present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I posted. It's in MP3
format and I'll leave it up for a day or two:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/

Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the Star
Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic hammond organ
mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to specifically find out what
part of the mix uses the organ (I always thought it was the steady
background), where the "winds" come into play and what type of winds, and
what is used to create the variable tone part of the mix? Please ignore the
footsteps, birds and other noises- I am interested in the tones themselves.
And forgive me as it is heavily compressed.

Thanks in advance for any information.

Erik

"Erik Washington" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive
me if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or
a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this
a very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not
for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific
instruments used to make the mix.

Thanks in advance,
Erik

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:35:05 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:

snip
Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the
Star Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic
hammond organ mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to
specifically find out what part of the mix uses the organ (I always
thought it was the steady background), where the "winds" come into play
and what type of winds, and what is used to create the variable tone
part of the mix? Please ignore the footsteps, birds and other noises- I
am interested in the tones themselves. And forgive me as it is heavily
compressed.

I had a go at making that background organ sound on my hammond. This is
the nearest I got:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20502569a936d6ff/

This was a slow leslie, holding down a bunch of keys and playing with the
draw bars.


Thanks in advance for any information.

Erik

[William Sommerwerck]

It sounds like the transporter effect (or a variation thereof), mixed with
bird calls!

I don't hear any winds. But I've always had trouble distinguishing wind
instruments.

[Erik Washington]

"William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
. ..
It sounds like the transporter effect (or a variation thereof), mixed with
bird calls!

What I seek are the tones only, try to ignore the bird calls, foot steps and
of course noise. This is an abbreviated version used in several episodes
later in the series. The full 28 second loop could be heard in several
original 1966 episodes.

The transporter is different and simpler. I created that some time ago
using a Hammond clone and a pitch bender. It was just a combination of the
Hammond tones and a separate pitch bending instrument. This effect though-
the one I posted- is more complex. I believe a Hammond is present, but
something is missing because I have never been able to recreate it very
well. Perhaps several other wind instruments or a stringed instrument,
which was the point of my post- to try and seek the exact or approximation
of all the instruments present.

I don't hear any winds. But I've always had trouble distinguishing wind
instruments.

[Erik Washington]

"philicorda" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 19:35:05 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:

snip
Now, here's a bit of background info I do have: it was created for the
Star Trek TV Series in 1964 and I am told that it is an electronic
hammond organ mixed with winds. No other info. I'd like to
specifically find out what part of the mix uses the organ (I always
thought it was the steady background), where the "winds" come into play
and what type of winds, and what is used to create the variable tone
part of the mix? Please ignore the footsteps, birds and other noises- I
am interested in the tones themselves. And forgive me as it is heavily
compressed.

I had a go at making that background organ sound on my hammond. This is
the nearest I got:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20502569a936d6ff/

This was a slow leslie, holding down a bunch of keys and playing with the
draw bars.

Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in the
past, but something is still missing which is what I have been trying to
figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also present, which ones-
and what makes the variable pitch?


Thanks in advance for any information.

Erik

[Erik Washington]

Here is the complete loop, about 30 seconds, and without birds and foot
steps although it is noisy:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20509395ae9b4fcf/

Perhaps this will help better with any best educated guesses.

Thanks again,
Erik

"Erik Washington" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive
me if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or
a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this
a very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not
for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific
instruments used to make the mix.

Thanks in advance,
Erik

[Jos Geluk]

Erik Washington schreef:
Hello again,

Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the instruments
present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I posted. It's in MP3
format and I'll leave it up for a day or two:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/

Just a guess: The high portamento sound sliding from g to f and back may
have been done with a couple of violins played sul ponticello, trying to
keep as close in pitch to one another as possible.

Jos.

--
Ardis Park Music
www.ardispark.nl

[Erik Washington]

"Jos Geluk" wrote in message
.home.nl...
Erik Washington schreef:
Hello again,

Thanks for offers to check out this sound effect to tell me the
instruments present within the mix. Here's the link to the file I
posted. It's in MP3 format and I'll leave it up for a day or two:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20500853a44dbc14/

Just a guess: The high portamento sound sliding from g to f and back may
have been done with a couple of violins played sul ponticello, trying to
keep as close in pitch to one another as possible.

Thanks, Jos. Someone has suggested something similar to that in the past.
Here's another link to what was used for the "transporter" effect, a simpler
mix that I believe used a Hammond for the steady part and maybe the violin
you suggested for the unsteady:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/

I was able to recreate this, but cheated a bit. Although I used the Hammond
clone for the steady tones, I was never able to figure out the variable so
separated and sampled the original separately. Do you think this might be a
violin also?

Thanks,
Erik

Jos.

--
Ardis Park Music
www.ardispark.nl

[Erik Washington]

Here is a link to a simpler mix that was used for the Star Trek
"transporter" as well as an alien planet background in a few episodes:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/

I was able to recreate this some years ago using a Hammond clone for the
steady tones, but I had to cheat and use the separated original instrument
for the unsteady, variable tone.

I believe this is very similar to the lower pitched, more complex mix I
posted earlier except simpler. Jos suggests perhaps a violin used for the
unsteady tone, so would appreciate any thoughts here.

Thanks,
Erik


"Erik Washington" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive
me if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or
a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this
a very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not
for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific
instruments used to make the mix.

Thanks in advance,
Erik

[Mark]

On Oct 14, 9:25*am, "Erik Washington" wrote:
Here is a link to a simpler mix that was used for the Star Trek
"transporter" as well as an alien planet background in a few episodes:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/

I was able to recreate this some years ago using a Hammond clone for the
steady tones, but I had to cheat and use the separated original instrument
for the unsteady, variable tone.

I believe this is very similar to the lower pitched, more complex mix I
posted earlier except simpler. *Jos suggests perhaps a violin used for the
unsteady tone, so would appreciate any thoughts here.

Thanks,
Erik

"Erik Washington" wrote in message

...



Hello,

I am not sure if this is the right forum to post this, so please forgive
me if it isn't, but here goes:

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series. *Most of
the ones I have dabbled with I have been somewhat successful, but I am
stumped by one. * I guess my question is, does anyone know of software or
a timely method that can identify individual instruments within a musical
track? *This is an essential element if I am going to be successful, but
unfortunately I have little experience trying to identify the instruments
myself.

I do have midi/ samplers at my fingertips, which have instrument libraries
available, but without instument references as to what I need I find this
a very tough task.

As a last resort, I could post the original audio file somewhere but not
for long and maybe someone here could help me with the specific
instruments used to make the mix.

Thanks in advance,
Erik- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

at the risk of stating the obvious...

an important part of the sound will be the many parameters of the
Reverb and the EQ on the dry and the EQ on the wet.

I'm happy to say, before I read the full post, I listened to the clip
and said to myself, that sounds like something I heard on Star Trek.

So if you have these clean copies, why do you want to "reproduce" them
from scratch?

Mark

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:59:29 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:

snip
Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in
the past, but something is still missing which is what I have been
trying to figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also
present, which ones- and what makes the variable pitch?

Yes, there is something metallic and harmonic about the background sound
that is not there in just the organ. It sounds almost like a gong, played
with a bow and then slowed down.

I had an idea it could be a bode frequency shifter (moog made one a
couple of years before the first Star Trek series.). This is the sound of
that same organ through the bode, both up and down shift with a little
reverb:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/205298021bb5823d/

Still not right, as it sounds too discordant. The modulation sounds kinda
similar though. It could just be a case of getting the right notes,
drawbars and bode shift, or they may have done it in a completely
different way.



Thanks in advance for any information.

Erik

[Erik Washington]

"Mark" wrote in message
...

"So if you have these clean copies, why do you want to "reproduce" them
from scratch?

Mark"


Good question as I have been asked that many times. First of all, I am an
audiofile as far as these effects are concerned. The copies sound "clean"
at initial listen, but try to listen on a hi-fi system and you'll find
otherwise (I'm talking about the lower sounds I posted and not the high
transporter sound as the latter is ok). The one that comes out best is
actually the copy with birds/ foot steps in the backround as it was recorded
quite a bit higher than the noise level.... but then there is the problem of
the noise elements on the track.

I find them a challenge to recreate because they were made before modern
synths (the closest instrument to the modern synth in 1964 was the Hammond),
so either the Hammond, musical instruments, or both was used for their
creation. I've never heard anything like them before... or since. All
modern Star Trek series used synths which didn't have the same sound.

Hope that helps with the answer,
Erik

[Erik Washington]

"philicorda" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 22:59:29 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:

snip
Thanks. That's a start and is in fact about as far as I have gotten in
the past, but something is still missing which is what I have been
trying to figure out. If there are in fact winds or strings also
present, which ones- and what makes the variable pitch?

Yes, there is something metallic and harmonic about the background sound
that is not there in just the organ. It sounds almost like a gong, played
with a bow and then slowed down.

I had an idea it could be a bode frequency shifter (moog made one a
couple of years before the first Star Trek series.). This is the sound of
that same organ through the bode, both up and down shift with a little
reverb:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/205298021bb5823d/

Still not right, as it sounds too discordant. The modulation sounds kinda
similar though. It could just be a case of getting the right notes,
drawbars and bode shift, or they may have done it in a completely
different way.

You might be on to something there, especially in regards to the variable
pitch as the tone you produced is similar. I've always suspected some sort
of modulation being used, but could never confirm. Did you use a plug-in
for this or a standalone program?

Another bit of information I once obtained was that the Hammond organ used
was "specially modified" so maybe it used the shifter somehow.

When I once looked at the spectrum of the track in a program called
"Renovator", I saw telltale signs of an organ being used for the steady
tones (very similar harmonics in the spectrum), but the unsteady tone did
not have the same harmonics so I always thought its origin was different
from the Hammond.

Erik


Thanks in advance for any information.

Erik

[philicorda[_6_]]

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 10:45:27 -0400, Erik Washington wrote:

snip
You might be on to something there, especially in regards to the
variable pitch as the tone you produced is similar. I've always
suspected some sort of modulation being used, but could never confirm.
Did you use a plug-in for this or a standalone program?

The plugin was the Steve Harris Bode frequency shifter. The modulation is
from the pitch change from the leslie rotor being multiplied by the
frequency shifter. I didn't fiddle with the shift amount in real time.


Another bit of information I once obtained was that the Hammond organ
used was "specially modified" so maybe it used the shifter somehow.

You can do a lot with a hammond, especially if you think of it as an
additive synth.


When I once looked at the spectrum of the track in a program called
"Renovator", I saw telltale signs of an organ being used for the steady
tones (very similar harmonics in the spectrum), but the unsteady tone
did not have the same harmonics so I always thought its origin was
different from the Hammond.

I was trying to get just the organ sound.
I agree the variable pitch is something else too, violin like others have
said, or a test tone oscillator being swept by hand perhaps.

[Jos Geluk]

Erik Washington schreef:

Thanks, Jos. Someone has suggested something similar to that in the past.
Here's another link to what was used for the "transporter" effect, a simpler
mix that I believe used a Hammond for the steady part and maybe the violin
you suggested for the unsteady:

http://www.zshare.net/audio/20529200549e7e86/

I was able to recreate this, but cheated a bit. Although I used the Hammond
clone for the steady tones, I was never able to figure out the variable so
separated and sampled the original separately. Do you think this might be a
violin also?

Not sure about the first part, these sound like a clipped recording of
flutes, but around 0:12 there is a high note going from c# to d# and
back that may very well be a couple of violins. Again, the effect is
that they all slide from one note to the next but each with a slightly
different pitch. I don't think these are played "sul ponticello" this
time, but it is hard to tell.

Jos.

--
Ardis Park Music
www.ardispark.nl

[Marc Wielage[_2_]]

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:35:43 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ):

As part of a hobby project, I am trying to recreate some sound effects,
which are mainly musical, from a notable past television series.
------------------------------snip------------------------------

If you're looking for STAR TREK sound effects, just get this CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Effects-Original-
Soundtrack/dp/B000001P04/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224323570&sr=1-3

Most of the famous ones are on there already. I've heard them used over the
past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I don't think
sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era.

Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and figure
out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or
multitrack.

--MFW

[Erik Washington]

"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:35:43 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ):


If you're looking for STAR TREK sound effects, just get this CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Effects-Original-
Soundtrack/dp/B000001P04/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1224323570&sr=1-3

Most of the famous ones are on there already.

The key word is "most". Certainly not all of them are on there and not the
two lower tone effects I posted (#7 on the CD is the same one, but with
annoying wind and rumbles- cannot be filtered out) , although the
transporter effect I posted was from that CD (I've owned the CD since it
first came out).

I've heard them used over the
past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I don't
think
sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era.

Yes, they have been used in a great many shows.

Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and
figure
out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or
multitrack.

Been there, done that. One of the problems is that some of the CD effects
are not even as good as the effect lifted from the VHS tapes. This is rare
of course, but for the alien planet effects I posted, they did not come from
the CD. It was a shame that the original alien planet surface effect was
not included (like the one I posted), and I'm not sure it was available at
the time the CD was made.

One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a
particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher
level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the
purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a separate
track from the music. However, the voices on the Dolby Digital channels
were often on the same track as the effects, so the effort was poor at best.
And the final conclusion was that only one episode ever had the effect in
semi-hi fidelity, and that was the one I posted. It still had footsteps and
birds, but sounds good on a hi fi system assuming the highs are cut back a
bit.

One of the problems I've faced is treatment of the original sound. Many of
the sounds on the CD and throughout the series were treated to change their
nature completely, and the alien planet effects were no exception. Even the
modified Hammond B-3 they used at the time was modified somehow to add some
sort of tone to the alien planet effects. So the final result may have been
arrived at through a completely different way than how it sounds.

I think the transporter effect in the 1970's ST: The Motion Picture was
derived from the alien planet effect used in the series. The tones have the
same character and are even played to different pitches. It's obvious that
the instrument they had was some sort of early synth or pre-synth such as
the Hammond.

Erik

--MFW

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Erik Washington wrote:


[quotig someone]

I've heard them used over the
past 20 years in countless cartoons and other productions, and I
don't think
sound effects per se can be copyrighted, at least not from that era.


You did have some weird concept of copyright ... basically to protect the
rights of the rich, but not of the poor ... some years ago. But you also did
sign the Vienna convention, so now - over your way too, providing the
convention made it to implemenation - a "work" is protected when created.
All your problems with mimicking those sound effects surely makes the point
that they ARE a work in a most obvious manner and in as much as the show was
copyrighted that copyright too applies to all parts of it.

Yes, they have been used in a great many shows.

Maybe the best solution is to get the CD, listen to the effects, and
figure
out a way to duplicate the sound and improve it -- even in stereo or
multitrack.

Been there, done that. One of the problems is that some of the CD
effects are not even as good as the effect lifted from the VHS tapes.

Point made by yourself. As for the CD it probably has some copyright wording
on it too, even in case it is a pay once, use multiple times wordings that
come with audio that is sold for production use.

I think the transporter effect in the 1970's ST: The Motion Picture
was derived from the alien planet effect used in the series. The
tones have the same character and are even played to different
pitches. It's obvious that the instrument they had was some sort of
early synth or pre-synth such as the Hammond.

You even void your own viewpoint by saying that it was played by a musician
on a musical instrument, it would then obviously be within the narrower
concept "music" by any definition I know of.

Erik

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[Marc Wielage[_2_]]

On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:36:42 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ):

One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a
particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher
level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the
purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a separate
track from the music.
------------------------------snip------------------------------

At least I named the show you seemed to be trying very hard not to mention.

I seem to recall that for about the first 30 episodes of the 1960s STAR TREK
series, the original 3-track DME mag masters were lost in a studio fire in
October of 1983, so all that remains is a comp mono mix. Getting the
separate sound elements would be tough for these shows, except when a foreign
M&E track might exist. Even then, you're at the mercy of the mix, since the
individual effects will never be totally in the clear.

Find a good Hollywood effects editor, and I bet he or she could get you what
you want -- for a price. I know good sound effects editors who have upwards
of 10TB' worth of drives with effects, both library FX, newly-recorded
sounds, and foley effects. I'd start with Sound Dogs:

http://www.sounddogs.com/

(877) 315-3647



Contact them, tell them what you want, and maybe they can find it. It'd be a
helluva lot easier than trying to recreate what was done forty years ago.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these effects -- or new versions of
them -- have already been created for the new J.J. Abrams STAR TREK feature.
I bet they're sitting on a Pro Tools drive right now. It's just a question
of finding the right person and making a deal.

Note that there's always the alternative of creating a new, original sound
from scratch, rather than imitate what's been done before. That takes skill
and talent, but ultimately I think that can be more rewarding than just
borrowing somebody else's work.

--MFW

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

Marc Wielage wrote:

What I say is still true: I know several (very busy) sound effects
editors and mixers here in LA, and sound effects from various studios
-- particularly those from 40 years ago -- are routinely used on many
films and shows without payment or credit. I've heard "Star Trek"
doors used as recently as last year on FAMILY GUY, for example.
Warner Bros.' effects show up in used car commercials. They're all
over the place, 24 hours a day.

There was a time -- generally, during the 1960s -- where you'd never
hear Warner Bros. sound effects in a Hanna-Barbera show, or a Disney
effect in a Filmmation show. I think it was more question of
maintaining a specific style than anything else. But by the 1980s,
everybody in the industry had copies of everybody else's libraries,
and you began to hear library sound effects in every show on
television.

I think I allowed for the existence of libraries, when you purchase those
you pay a one time fee for all copyright, they are not copyright free and
you may only use them as licensed.

I remember having a lengthy conversation around 1985
with the head sound effects editor for Ruby-Spears (for whom I worked
on a half-dozen different animated series during that time), and he
explained why he was able to use sound effects from Disney, MGM,
Warner Bros., Hanna-Barbera, and several other studios. Some of these
effects were so old, they literally came from optical tracks from
decades earlier (and sounded like it, too).

This is where the weird concept comes in, US practice was that copyright
should be registred to exist.

You may disagree with the morality, but legally speaking, there's no
protection for sound effects. And it is absolutely a very common
practice in the industry today.

It would be a tough day in court if they all steal from one another .... but
the mechanical copyright on a recording is just that. Replicating an effect
would be a tougher call. Also you do not make it clear that they have NOT
agreed to share libraries, with your comment

If you use current commercial sound effects libraries, such as the
ones marketed by Hollywood Edge in LA or Sound Ideas in Toronto, you
can use them at will in any production, but you can't market them as
self-contained sound effects for download or CD. In other words, you
can use them within a production mix, but not sold individually _as
sound effects_ per se. That's part of the user agreement when you
buy the CD.

in mind I am inclined to assume that just that is what they did. If they
just always stole each others sound effects such an agreement could be said
to exist via common law.

Read this for more info:

http://sound-ideas.com/licenses.html

BTW, the copyright conventions you cite are actually from Berne and
Geneva, not from Vienna:

Thanks. Early morning typing ... however you have not persuasively made the
point that I was in error, your supplementations are however very welcome,
thank you for following up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...ght_Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_C..._of_Literary_a
nd_Artistic_Works

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[William Sommerwerck]

I know several (very busy) sound effects editors and mixers here
in LA, and sound effects from various studios -- particularly those
from 40 years ago -- are routinely used on many films and shows
without payment or credit.

I've noticed that "The Venture Bros." uses many "Star Trek" effects, and
wondered whether they were licensed, or just lifted.

[Erik Washington]

"Marc Wielage" wrote in message
.com...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2008 06:36:42 -0700, Erik Washington wrote
(in article ):

One time someone suggested trying to find the effects sound stripe from a
particular episode where the alien planet effect was recorded at a higher
level. I was never successful (studios charge big $$ no matter what the
purpose) but when the DVD's came out, the effects were often on a
separate
track from the music.
------------------------------snip------------------------------

At least I named the show you seemed to be trying very hard not to
mention.

No, I mentioned it early on, either in this post or the one that followed
it.

I seem to recall that for about the first 30 episodes of the 1960s STAR
TREK
series, the original 3-track DME mag masters were lost in a studio fire in
October of 1983, so all that remains is a comp mono mix.

Yes, I recall the fire and was aware of the DME masters, but I didn't know
there was a link between the two. Perhaps that's been the primary source of
difficulty trying to find anything.

Getting the
separate sound elements would be tough for these shows, except when a
foreign
M&E track might exist. Even then, you're at the mercy of the mix, since
the
individual effects will never be totally in the clear.

The DVD's (at least the early ones I have) were recorded in Doby Digital and
6 channels are available. There are a few episodes were the complete loop
is available on one of the channels, but the compression is so high that the
overall quality is poor and it's very noisy because it was recorded at close
to the background noise level.

Find a good Hollywood effects editor, and I bet he or she could get you
what
you want -- for a price. I know good sound effects editors who have
upwards
of 10TB' worth of drives with effects, both library FX, newly-recorded
sounds, and foley effects. I'd start with Sound Dogs:

http://www.sounddogs.com/

(877) 315-3647



Contact them, tell them what you want, and maybe they can find it. It'd
be a
helluva lot easier than trying to recreate what was done forty years ago.

I've never been successful going this route, but thanks for the info.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of these effects -- or new versions
of
them -- have already been created for the new J.J. Abrams STAR TREK
feature.
I bet they're sitting on a Pro Tools drive right now. It's just a
question
of finding the right person and making a deal.

To be honest, I doubt the new feature film was have any of them. After the
original producer (Gene Roddenberry) died, there seemed to be a shift
further away from original series elements to the point where even the last
series (Enterprise) was almost nothing like the original at all. This was
not only in visuals and effects, but sounds as well.

Note that there's always the alternative of creating a new, original sound
from scratch, rather than imitate what's been done before. That takes
skill
and talent, but ultimately I think that can be more rewarding than just
borrowing somebody else's work.

The key has been finding the right elements to start with. In many cases,
organic sources were used to create the original effects due to lack of
synths and producer Roddenberry wanted the effects to sound more realistic.
So it has been a big challenge to track down an exotic bird, for example,
that was looped and reverbed for the main viewing screen. Synths can come
somewhat close, but not quite there.

Erik

--MFW