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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Don Pearce Don Pearce is offline
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Default Micing a harp

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W


I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
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Laurence Payne Laurence Payne is offline
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Default Micing a harp

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


Are you spot-micing ALL the orchestral instruments? Or is the harp a
featured soloist?
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W


I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.

Certainly, an ORTF pair will be used, but because the hall is
acoustically small (i.e. low ceiling ~ 23ft), I am concerned that harp
will become lost behind any other sounds in the room. I'd like to spot
mic the harp as a fall back position, since it doesn't take much
surrounding sound level to drown out this particular instrument.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Laurence Payne wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


Are you spot-micing ALL the orchestral instruments? Or is the harp a
featured soloist?

Yes and yes.

The hall is sufficiently small that the loud instruments (drums, horn
section) need no amplification, but the quieter instruments are
swamped. Even though the orchestration is such that harp won't have to
compete with the trumpets, I'd like to be in the situation where I can
pull the harp level up a tad if needed.

An ORTF pair will be used, but as I said to Don, I'd like to have a
safe-guard for quiet instruments like the harp.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---


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Don Pearce Don Pearce is offline
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Default Micing a harp

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:41:25 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W


I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.

Certainly, an ORTF pair will be used, but because the hall is
acoustically small (i.e. low ceiling ~ 23ft), I am concerned that harp
will become lost behind any other sounds in the room. I'd like to spot
mic the harp as a fall back position, since it doesn't take much
surrounding sound level to drown out this particular instrument.

Chris W


Is the harp a solo instrument? If not, I really wouldn't bother. But
if you are really nervous about it, put a spot mic on it. You will be
limited in where the mic can go by the instruments around it, and you
will need to worry more about not picking up odd noises from other
people than super quality.

If you do decide you need to use the spot track, you will need to
offset the timing to match the difference in distance. You can help
yourself in this before the performance by recording a handclap from
the harp's position. Use it like a clapperboard in films to give you
the timing offset you need.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
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Edi Zubovic Edi Zubovic is offline
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Posts: 165
Default Micing a harp

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W



-- A month ago, I've made a quite fine recording of a solo harp both
in a curch and in a beach lounge caffe the next day. The performer was
Monika Stadler, an excellent harp player and the instrument was a very
fine German concert harp too, the Horngacher Meisterharfe. This harp
has a full-length slot on the back of the resonator body instead of
holes. I've found that the resonant frequency of the body is about 150
Hz.

In the church, I've set the recorder (PCM-D1) at 1,5 m from the harp
at it's half-height, the recorder's (pseudo)X-Y mics facing towards
audience. I tapped gently the both harp sides to catch the balance.

Later, I've added some LF tilt just to get more body taking in account
that 150 Hz area. The resonant frequency can be easily determined by
recording the body as it's "catching" the sound of the ambient and
later by drawing its frequency plot. The harp sound is very
overtone-rich and quite transient. I'd reccomend a smaller membrane
microphone pair with a fine top end, such as Schoeps. With good harps,
handling noise would be nil and harpists usually move back and forth
to a degree while playing, depending of hand positions.

In this case, due to constrained space, I would also place a
microphone pair facing out but the other sound may be just loud. I'd
see the concert part to see how the harp will be played, if there are
solos, where are potentially quitetest parts etc. and I'd ride it all
the way.

Wishing you sucess,

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:41:25 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:



In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W


I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.


Certainly, an ORTF pair will be used, but because the hall is
acoustically small (i.e. low ceiling ~ 23ft), I am concerned that harp
will become lost behind any other sounds in the room. I'd like to spot
mic the harp as a fall back position, since it doesn't take much
surrounding sound level to drown out this particular instrument.

Chris W


Is the harp a solo instrument? If not, I really wouldn't bother. But
if you are really nervous about it, put a spot mic on it. You will be
limited in where the mic can go by the instruments around it, and you
will need to worry more about not picking up odd noises from other
people than super quality.

Hence my question about the possible use of a contact mic...
If you do decide you need to use the spot track, you will need to
offset the timing to match the difference in distance. You can help
yourself in this before the performance by recording a handclap from
the harp's position. Use it like a clapperboard in films to give you
the timing offset you need.

Understood

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Don Pearce Don Pearce is offline
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Default Micing a harp

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:24:44 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:41:25 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:



In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W


I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.


Certainly, an ORTF pair will be used, but because the hall is
acoustically small (i.e. low ceiling ~ 23ft), I am concerned that harp
will become lost behind any other sounds in the room. I'd like to spot
mic the harp as a fall back position, since it doesn't take much
surrounding sound level to drown out this particular instrument.

Chris W


Is the harp a solo instrument? If not, I really wouldn't bother. But
if you are really nervous about it, put a spot mic on it. You will be
limited in where the mic can go by the instruments around it, and you
will need to worry more about not picking up odd noises from other
people than super quality.

Hence my question about the possible use of a contact mic...
If you do decide you need to use the spot track, you will need to
offset the timing to match the difference in distance. You can help
yourself in this before the performance by recording a handclap from
the harp's position. Use it like a clapperboard in films to give you
the timing offset you need.

Understood

Chris W


A contact mic really takes weeks to set up and get right - it isn't
something you can just stick on and hope to get anything like a good
sound.

The big danger you have here is that you find you need to use a lot of
the spot track to get the harp audible. It will then stick out like a
sore thumb because it has an entirely different acoustic to the rest
of the orchestra. You may find you need to apply some reverb to the
harp solo track before you mix it with the rest of the orchestra. The
absolute best way to do this is record the impulse of the hall from
the harp location to the main mics, and use that with a convolution
reverb. But anything vaguely similar will do a good job - better than
nothing anyway.

d

--
Pearce Consulting
http://www.pearce.uk.com
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Arny Krueger Arny Krueger is offline
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Posts: 17,262
Default Micing a harp


"Chris Whealy" wrote in message
...

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


Never tackle a harp. They are a little unsteady and heavy. If it falls on
you, it could hurt! ;-)

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece orchestra
that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists. The
musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of the hall
and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins, viola, cello,
harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The spacing between the
musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).


Harps vary a lot, and the sounds they make vary quite a bit with the
instrumentalist playing them.

I've found that harps are something like pipe organs, in that they are
acoustically large and radiate a lot of sound in many directions so their
sound is actually quite pervasive.

The bigger problem IME has been managing the spill from the harp into the
mics for other nearby instruments.

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable.


There seem to be a lot of competing suppliers. I imagine the ones with good
reputations with other string instruments will do as good job as can be
expected.

I've got some concerns about contact mics for harps because harps don 't
seem to have a centralized sounding board. I get this feeling that even
more than usual, you can get as many different sounds out of a contact mic
on a harp as there are distinct places to put it.

I can usually source most microphones from a local hire company, so
purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.


Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


Like organs, IME it's hard to avoid getting a fairly musical sound out of a
harp recording. They are both very pervasve sound sources, of course the
pipe organ being far larger, louder and more pervasive.




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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Don Pearce wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 13:24:44 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 12:41:25 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:



Don Pearce wrote:


On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:53:47 +0200, Chris Whealy
wrote:




In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W



I would suggest you leave the question of musical balance to the
musical director (conductor) and mic the entire ensemble in standard
classical fashion. Don't make special provision for any instruments
unless there is a specific soloist, who you may want to spot mic; even
then, don't actually use the spot mic track unless the soloist really
is vanishing in the mix, and needs lifting just very slightly.

The way you mic the ensemble is a matter of personal taste, and what
mics you have available, but think in terms of ORTF and XY if you have
nice cardioids, and spaced omni or maybe Jecklin disc otherwise.



Certainly, an ORTF pair will be used, but because the hall is
acoustically small (i.e. low ceiling ~ 23ft), I am concerned that harp
will become lost behind any other sounds in the room. I'd like to spot
mic the harp as a fall back position, since it doesn't take much
surrounding sound level to drown out this particular instrument.

Chris W


Is the harp a solo instrument? If not, I really wouldn't bother. But
if you are really nervous about it, put a spot mic on it. You will be
limited in where the mic can go by the instruments around it, and you
will need to worry more about not picking up odd noises from other
people than super quality.


Hence my question about the possible use of a contact mic...

If you do decide you need to use the spot track, you will need to
offset the timing to match the difference in distance. You can help
yourself in this before the performance by recording a handclap from
the harp's position. Use it like a clapperboard in films to give you
the timing offset you need.


Understood

Chris W


A contact mic really takes weeks to set up and get right - it isn't
something you can just stick on and hope to get anything like a good
sound.

The big danger you have here is that you find you need to use a lot of
the spot track to get the harp audible. It will then stick out like a
sore thumb because it has an entirely different acoustic to the rest
of the orchestra. You may find you need to apply some reverb to the
harp solo track before you mix it with the rest of the orchestra. The
absolute best way to do this is record the impulse of the hall from
the harp location to the main mics, and use that with a convolution
reverb. But anything vaguely similar will do a good job - better than
nothing anyway.

d

OK, the harpist says he has used a contact mic before, so (hopefully) he
will know where it should be located...

Thanks

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Adrian Tuddenham Adrian Tuddenham is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


A BBC training manual suggests that if you are experiencing a lot of
pedal and mechanism noise, placing the mic a couple of feet behind the
player's head will screen it from the worst of that noise without
spoiling the sound of the harp.

It sounds as if this is not going to be much help in your particular
circumstance this time, but I mention it for future reference.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk
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Greg Boboski Greg Boboski is offline
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Default Micing a harp


You may not have time later so throw something up at setup , perhaps
something that normally works well for you with strings or piano
Coming from up top a foot or so facing down to get the overall harp
and minimize leakage .
The danger being that you may use things just because you can , so
of course listen , but it a pressure with that many people waiting it is
good to be prepared .
Have fun , i'm sure it'll turn out fine as long as your paying attention

regards Greg



"Chris Whealy" wrote in message
...
In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece orchestra
that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists. The
musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of the hall
and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins, viola, cello,
harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The spacing between the
musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---



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Greg Boboski Greg Boboski is offline
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Posts: 65
Default Micing a harp


You may not have time later so throw something up at setup , perhaps
something that normally works well for you with strings or piano
Coming from up top a foot or so facing down to get the overall harp
and minimize leakage .
The danger being that you may use things just because you can , so
of course listen , but it a pressure with that many people waiting it is
good to be prepared .
Have fun , I'm sure it'll turn out fine as long as your paying attention

regards Greg



"Chris Whealy" wrote in message
...
In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece orchestra
that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists. The
musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of the hall
and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins, viola, cello,
harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The spacing between the
musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---




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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote:
In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


Ignore it. It's part of the band. Mike the band, not the harp.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).


That doesn't sound good, but it's going to be harder on the audience than
on you.

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.


You will not get anything approaching a real harp sound that way, because
you will lose all the string attack. You MIGHT consider something like a
441, raised up and pointing down.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


If you are in such bad straits that you have to spot the harp, you're going
to have to spot the basses too. It is not going to be pretty.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Chris Whealy wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


Ignore it. It's part of the band. Mike the band, not the harp.


To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various soloists.
The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the acoustics of
the hall and layout of the stage area, the string section (violins,
viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the orchestra. The
spacing between the musicians is tight (think orchestra pit).


That doesn't sound good, but it's going to be harder on the audience than
on you.


I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.


You will not get anything approaching a real harp sound that way, because
you will lose all the string attack. You MIGHT consider something like a
441, raised up and pointing down.


Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


If you are in such bad straits that you have to spot the harp, you're going
to have to spot the basses too. It is not going to be pretty.
--scott


Hmmm, thought you'd say that... OK, scrap the contact mic idea

Got to hire in some Schoeps cardioids anyway to make an ORTF pair, so I
could add a 441 to the list.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Carey Carlan Carey Carlan is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote in -
ag.de:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


I regularly mic a harp in a choral/orchestral setting, both to record and
as sound reinforcement for solos.

I place a figure-8 microphone pointing toward the sound board about 3/4
down from player to floor and about 1 to 1.5 feet above the board. Point
the mic mostly down (vertical) and the orchestra as a whole will be in the
doughnut shaped null around the mic. Make sure it's out of the way of the
harpist. Don't want her slapping it as she reaches for the low strings.

This configuration gives me adequate isolation and resonant sound.

My microphone choice is probably overkill for your situation, but I like
it. It's a Schoeps CMC6 with 6G multipattern capsule.
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Scott Dorsey Scott Dorsey is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote:

If you are in such bad straits that you have to spot the harp, you're going
to have to spot the basses too. It is not going to be pretty.


Hmmm, thought you'd say that... OK, scrap the contact mic idea

Got to hire in some Schoeps cardioids anyway to make an ORTF pair, so I
could add a 441 to the list.


A schoeps hyper would do nicely too. And I'd throw a 421 or something on
the basses. Try and be there for the rehearsal. You're going to have to
delay the spot mikes with respect to the main pair so measure the distances
to make setting the delays easier in mixdown. You're also going to have to
EQ the crap out of the spots to keep them from standing out like sore thumbs.
I hate jobs like that.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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Peter Larsen[_2_] Peter Larsen[_2_] is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote:

In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like
some opinions on the best way to tackle it.


It is not a weak instrument.

To provide some background: The harp will be part of a 28 piece
orchestra that is accompanying a 90 member choir plus various
soloists. The musicians are in the corner of the hall. Due to the
acoustics of the hall and layout of the stage area, the string
section (violins, viola, cello, harp) need to be at the back of the
orchestra. The spacing between the musicians is tight (think
orchestra pit).


A single pair comes to mind.

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due
to the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type
would be suitable.


I had a pair 4 meters from a harp once, the darn jumps out of its proper
place in sonic perspective and sounds as if it is halfway between mic stand
and ensemble instead of in the front row of the ensemble where it actually
is.

I can usually source most microphones from a
local hire company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't
be buying.


Not to worry, stereo pair on the ensemble, get the balance as it is and
leave getting it right to the conductor. This is a concert, the event is the
concert.

Experience from anyone who's done this before would be appreciated.


See also my general comments on mic distance strategy in the nearby jazz
recording thread. A cardioid pair on the ensemble, another on the choir, a
couple of cards for the soloists and an omni (jecklin?) pair on the hall,
you will have plenty to handle as it is. The harp is just another voice in
the ensemble, record the ensemble.

Chris W


Record the rehearsal(s) as possible and applicable.... even if they don't do
it exactly like that at showtime it helps a lot to be familiar with the
actual programme.


Kind regards

Peter Larsen






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Chris Whealy wrote:

Are you spot-micing ALL the orchestral instruments? Or is the harp a
featured soloist?


Yes and yes.


The hall is sufficiently small that the loud instruments (drums, horn
section) need no amplification, but the quieter instruments are
swamped.


Drums, horn section ... where are those? ... just how do they think the show
will work, sounds to me as it they ought to call George or a nearby collegue
of his. IF the show works, then you can record it, if it doesn't ...
including if it needds sound reinforcement ... then you quite possibly can
not.

Even though the orchestration is such that harp won't have
to compete with the trumpets, I'd like to be in the situation where I
can pull the harp level up a tad if needed.


An omni on a stand near it. But remember: the harp is a physically large
instrument, get too close and things will get weird because you only get a
part of it.

An ORTF pair will be used, but as I said to Don, I'd like to have a
safe-guard for quiet instruments like the harp.


Use two pairs then - if careful angling of one doesn't do it - one on the
front row(s) and one on the rear row(s), it may well work to have them on
the same stand.

The simpler the better, the more stuff you put up, the more errors you can
make, trust me. You can't just put a single spot mic on an instrument in an
ensemble row, the more mics, the closer all have to be, and suddenly more
becomes many.

Chris W



Kind regards

Peter Larsen






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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Peter Larsen wrote:
Drums, horn section ... where are those? ... just how do they think the show
will work, sounds to me as it they ought to call George or a nearby collegue
of his. IF the show works, then you can record it, if it doesn't ...
including if it needds sound reinforcement ... then you quite possibly can
not.


Believe me, its not a concert hall, but its the hall we're stuck with.
We've had an acoustician who specialises in church acoutics come over
from Canada, and he has made significant improvements to the sound.
However, we're running up against the laws of physics now...

Who's George?
An omni on a stand near it. But remember: the harp is a physically large
instrument, get too close and things will get weird because you only get a
part of it.


True, that's much what Arnie said
Use two pairs then - if careful angling of one doesn't do it - one on the
front row(s) and one on the rear row(s), it may well work to have them on
the same stand.

Yes, I was planning to do this already
The simpler the better, the more stuff you put up, the more errors you can
make, trust me. You can't just put a single spot mic on an instrument in an
ensemble row, the more mics, the closer all have to be, and suddenly more
becomes many.


Yes, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle (not the rock band... :-)

Thanks for your comments

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Scott Dorsey wrote:
Chris Whealy wrote:

Scott Dorsey wrote:

If you are in such bad straits that you have to spot the harp, you're going
to have to spot the basses too. It is not going to be pretty.



Hmmm, thought you'd say that... OK, scrap the contact mic idea

Got to hire in some Schoeps cardioids anyway to make an ORTF pair, so I
could add a 441 to the list.


A schoeps hyper would do nicely too. And I'd throw a 421 or something on the basses. Try and be there for the rehearsal.

Absolutely, I'll be there!
You're going to have to delay the spot mikes with respect to the main pair so measure the distances to make setting the delays easier in mixdown.

Fine
You're also going to have to EQ the crap out of the spots to keep them from standing out like sore thumbs.
I hate jobs like that.


Thanks for the encouragement!!

:-)

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Carey Carlan wrote:
Chris Whealy wrote in -
ag.de:


In about 6 weeks, I need to record a performance that includes a pedal
harp. I've never had to mic such an instrument before so I'd like some
opinions on the best way to tackle it.


I regularly mic a harp in a choral/orchestral setting, both to record and
as sound reinforcement for solos.

I place a figure-8 microphone pointing toward the sound board about 3/4
down from player to floor and about 1 to 1.5 feet above the board. Point
the mic mostly down (vertical) and the orchestra as a whole will be in the
doughnut shaped null around the mic. Make sure it's out of the way of the
harpist. Don't want her slapping it as she reaches for the low strings.

This configuration gives me adequate isolation and resonant sound.

My microphone choice is probably overkill for your situation, but I like
it. It's a Schoeps CMC6 with 6G multipattern capsule.

Thanks. I'll be hiring in some Schoeps anyway so this would not be a
problem.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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hank alrich hank alrich is offline
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Default Micing a harp

Chris Whealy wrote:

I think a contact mic on the sound board would be a good approach due to
the proximity of other musicians, but I don't know which type would be
suitable. I can usually source most microphones from a local hire
company, so purchase cost is not an issue since we won't be buying.


One way to get the whole harp when close micing is to use an X/Y
coincident pair setup vertically instead of horizontally in front of the
harp. You want to get as truly coincident as possible for the result to
sound coherent and as a single instrument instead of two, one high and
one low. Pan them both in mono at mixdown.

The K&K folks make pickups for harps, and they supply the pickups fror
that fancy amplified French harp (can't recall the name right now and
I'm in a tire shop without 'net access). If you need to use a pickup,
I'd suggest checking with them.

--
ha
Iraq is Arabic for Vietnam
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Chris Whealy Chris Whealy is offline
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Default Micing a harp

hank alrich wrote:
One way to get the whole harp when close micing is to use an X/Y
coincident pair setup vertically instead of horizontally in front of the
harp. You want to get as truly coincident as possible for the result to
sound coherent and as a single instrument instead of two, one high and
one low. Pan them both in mono at mixdown.

The K&K folks make pickups for harps, and they supply the pickups fror
that fancy amplified French harp (can't recall the name right now and
I'm in a tire shop without 'net access). If you need to use a pickup,
I'd suggest checking with them.


Thanks Hank, good to know that a specialist pickup exists for this
instrument.

Chris W

--
The voice of ignorance speaks loud and long,
But the words of the wise are quiet and few.
---
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