[Arny Krueger]

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

[Eeyore]

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.

The RIAA's been too successful in shutting down its free shop window.

Graham

[Jenn]

In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due to
Napster. What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez formats.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due to
Napster.

Knowing about the sales pop during the Napster days was a matter of having
one's ears open at the time.

Music has been free as long as there has been radio. Recorded music has been
available at terrific discounts from record store prices as long as there
have been home audio recorders. I remember taping radio and LPs back in the
late 50s. Therefore there's nothing new about people bootlegging popular
music. All Napster did is decrease the time and effort required for
bootleggng, at the cost of having music in a format that might be harder to
listen to when you were away from your PC. There may have also been SQ
issues, some pretty severe.

A lot of people learned about music that was new to them via MP3 downloads
and exchanges, and ran right out and bought the CDs so they could enjoy the
music bette. Guilty as charged!

What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

Contrary to some people's apparent belief, college folks don't define the
market for music. College students are only a minority of all people who buy
music. They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

[bob]

On Feb 12, 11:15 am, Eeyore
wrote:

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.

Napster operated as a free service from 1999 until 2001. RIAA
shipments:

1999: 939 million units

2001: 882 million units

bob

[Arny Krueger]

"bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 12, 11:15 am, Eeyore
wrote:

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.

Napster operated as a free service from 1999 until 2001. RIAA
shipments:

1999: 939 million units

2001: 882 million units


Note that the dates in question cover 2or 3 years, but there's data for just
one year. Note that Napster was not the only relevant variable during that
time.

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.


The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due to
Napster.

Knowing about the sales pop during the Napster days was a matter of having
one's ears open at the time.

Exactly.


Music has been free as long as there has been radio. Recorded music has been
available at terrific discounts from record store prices as long as there
have been home audio recorders.

Of course.

I remember taping radio and LPs back in the
late 50s.

As do I, but in the late 60s and early 70s.

Therefore there's nothing new about people bootlegging popular
music. All Napster did is decrease the time and effort required for
bootleggng, at the cost of having music in a format that might be harder to
listen to when you were away from your PC. There may have also been SQ
issues, some pretty severe.

I think that you've understate this case. The SQ issue is a MAJOR
difference between recording off the radio with a cassette recorder
(what most people had) and a digital download.


A lot of people learned about music that was new to them via MP3 downloads
and exchanges, and ran right out and bought the CDs so they could enjoy the
music bette. Guilty as charged!

As I said, there's no solid evidence that this happened in large numbers.


What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

Contrary to some people's apparent belief, college folks don't define the
market for music. College students are only a minority of all people who buy
music.

Last I looked, the 10-24 demographic was the largest segment of the
recorded music buying population.

They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

[Jenn]

In article .com,
"bob" wrote:

On Feb 12, 11:15 am, Eeyore
wrote:

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.

Napster operated as a free service from 1999 until 2001. RIAA
shipments:

1999: 939 million units

2001: 882 million units

bob

And of course, other P2P services operate even today.

[George M. Middius]

Jenn said:

college aged people

They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

Darn right. If that were the standard, Arnii Krooger could be excused for
filching cash from the collection plate at church.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.


And you conclude from this.....what?

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all
sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due to
Napster.

Knowing about the sales pop during the Napster days was a matter of
having
one's ears open at the time.

Exactly.

Admission that you were out of the loop at the time Jenn?

Music has been free as long as there has been radio. Recorded music has
been
available at terrific discounts from record store prices as long as there
have been home audio recorders.

Of course.

I remember taping radio and LPs back in the
late 50s.

As do I, but in the late 60s and early 70s.

Therefore there's nothing new about people bootlegging popular
music. All Napster did is decrease the time and effort required for
bootleggng, at the cost of having music in a format that might be harder
to
listen to when you were away from your PC. There may have also been SQ
issues, some pretty severe.

I think that you've understate this case. The SQ issue is a MAJOR
difference between recording off the radio with a cassette recorder
(what most people had) and a digital download.

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts that have been presented (example home
recording from consumer media with excellent quality). After all, where do
most of the MP3s come from from consumers transcribing recordings they have
purchased or borrowed?

A lot of people learned about music that was new to them via MP3
downloads
and exchanges, and ran right out and bought the CDs so they could enjoy
the
music bette. Guilty as charged!

As I said, there's no solid evidence that this happened in large numbers.

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her not-yet-admitted
ignorance of relevant facts to "solid evidence".

What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

Contrary to some people's apparent belief, college folks don't define the
market for music. College students are only a minority of all people who
buy
music.

Last I looked, the 10-24 demographic was the largest segment of the
recorded music buying population.

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no shame?

They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

Is it stealing music to listen to the radio?

Am I stealing from the History Channel when I time-shift some of their
programs?

Is it stealing music when people make their own music videos from commercial
audio recordings and post them on YouTube?

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

And you conclude from this.....what?

It looks very much like those well-known emperor's clothes labelled DVD-A,
SACD and vinyl have been found out by more and more of the music-loving
public.

The major technological changes that relate to LP in the last year or so
include:

(1) Dance music manipulation devices that don't need a vinyl LP to operate.

(2) More and more people seem to be digitizing LPs.

[George M. Middius]

The Krooborg is itching for a tussle.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

Is it stealing music to listen to the radio?
Am I stealing from the History Channel when I time-shift some of their
programs?
Is it stealing music when people make their own music videos from commercial
audio recordings and post them on YouTube?

Show of hands: How many RAOers think it's a crying shame that there's no
rating system for "debating trade" warriors? I think Arnii is deserving of
a first-degree Brown Belt.




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

And you conclude from this.....what?

It looks very much like those well-known emperor's clothes labelled DVD-A,
SACD and vinyl have been found out by more and more of the music-loving
public.

Or perhaps that public has shifted to online buying because of much better
selection, and the remaining B&M stores are dropping their stock.



The major technological changes that relate to LP in the last year or so
include:

(1) Dance music manipulation devices that don't need a vinyl LP to
operate.

Okay

(2) More and more people seem to be digitizing LPs.

Your basis for statement #2?

I can see where #1 might have relevance to LP sales (but not SACD or DVD-A).
What relevance does #2 have to sales of anything (other than electronics)?

[Jenn]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

No Arny, I'm not changing the subject. I'm simply recalling, to the
best of my ability, Harry's point.


The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all
sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due to
Napster.

Knowing about the sales pop during the Napster days was a matter of
having
one's ears open at the time.

Exactly.

Admission that you were out of the loop at the time Jenn?

Not at all Arny. I simply spend a great deal of time with the age group
who seems to do the most illegal downloading.


Music has been free as long as there has been radio. Recorded music has
been
available at terrific discounts from record store prices as long as there
have been home audio recorders.

Of course.

I remember taping radio and LPs back in the
late 50s.

As do I, but in the late 60s and early 70s.

Therefore there's nothing new about people bootlegging popular
music. All Napster did is decrease the time and effort required for
bootleggng, at the cost of having music in a format that might be harder
to
listen to when you were away from your PC. There may have also been SQ
issues, some pretty severe.

I think that you've understated (spelling corrected) this case. The SQ issue is a MAJOR
difference between recording off the radio with a cassette recorder
(what most people had) and a digital download.

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts that have been presented (example home
recording from consumer media with excellent quality). After all, where do
most of the MP3s come from from consumers transcribing recordings they have
purchased or borrowed?

Look 5 paragraphs up, Arny. You mentioned taping from the radio.
That's what I was referring to.


A lot of people learned about music that was new to them via MP3
downloads
and exchanges, and ran right out and bought the CDs so they could enjoy
the
music bette. Guilty as charged!

As I said, there's no solid evidence that this happened in large numbers.

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her not-yet-admitted
ignorance of relevant facts to "solid evidence".

I said, "There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales
was due to Napster." Do you have evidence to the contrary?


What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

Contrary to some people's apparent belief, college folks don't define the
market for music. College students are only a minority of all people who
buy
music.

Last I looked, the 10-24 demographic was the largest segment of the
recorded music buying population.

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no shame?

Troll ignored.


They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

Is it stealing music to listen to the radio?

Nope. The recording "chain" gives it's permission to use their
recordings in this way, and they derive income from this use.


Am I stealing from the History Channel when I time-shift some of their
programs?

Nope. That's referred to as fair use.


Is it stealing music when people make their own music videos from commercial
audio recordings and post them on YouTube?

That's about to be debated in the courts. Stay tuned.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.


In your glee to report the demise of "Hi-rez" and vinyl, you're
overlooking the fact that less music overall is sold.

Which, in turn, can mean two things: people find their music through
other (illegal?) channels, of they listen less.


Sad, indeed, that you seem to enjoy this.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Jenn]

In article ,
Sander deWaal wrote:

"Arny Krueger" said:


Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.


In your glee to report the demise of "Hi-rez" and vinyl, you're
overlooking the fact that less music overall is sold.

Which, in turn, can mean two things: people find their music through
other (illegal?) channels, of they listen less.


Sad, indeed, that you seem to enjoy this.

Last I looked, legal downloads (iTunes, etc) were way up. Clearly this
is the way of the future. Indeed, it seems to be the way of the
present! As I've expressed before here, I'd rather shop in 3D most of
the time, but obviously I'm in the minority.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

And you conclude from this.....what?

It looks very much like those well-known emperor's clothes labelled
DVD-A, SACD and vinyl have been found out by more and more of the
music-loving public.

Or perhaps that public has shifted to online buying because of much better
selection, and the remaining B&M stores are dropping their stock.



The major technological changes that relate to LP in the last year or so
include:

(1) Dance music manipulation devices that don't need a vinyl LP to
operate.

Okay

(2) More and more people seem to be digitizing LPs.

Your basis for statement #2?

Since I used the word seem, this could be nothing more than a perception of
mine. However there is a factual basis for this - the frequency of questions
about digitzing vinyl posted and Usenet, the profusion of web pages about
it, the number of products that facilitate it, conversations with people in
real life, etc.

I can see where #1 might have relevance to LP sales (but not SACD or
DVD-A).

Good.

What relevance does #2 have to sales of anything (other than electronics)?

It's quite a bit easier to exchange digital copies of LPs than copy them by
other means...

[dave weil]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:10:31 GMT, Jenn
wrote:

Is it stealing music when people make their own music videos from commercial
audio recordings and post them on YouTube?

That's about to be debated in the courts. Stay tuned.

Well, it wouldn't be stealing for the person who made the video,
unless it could be proved that he or she used the video to make money
in some fashion outside of YouTube (this *might* be argued if the
video was linked to a commercial site). YouTube could be considered
liable however, since their display of the material could be argued to
support their operation from a financial standpoint. After all, even
non-profit, non-commercial radio stations have to pay royalties.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" said:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

In your glee

Sue me for being in favor of logic and reason, and against empty claims.

to report the demise of "Hi-rez" and vinyl, you're
overlooking the fact that less music overall is sold.

Yeah, total sales of music overall are have *fallen* to the point where
"Total Digital And Physical" sales are *up* almost 30%.

LOL!

Hint to anybody who wants to see Sander's latest lies laid bare - read the
numbers on the bottom line of the cited reference, looking hard for the
number 29.9.

Which, in turn, can mean two things: people find their music through
other (illegal?) channels, of they listen less.

Obviously a *fact* made up to suit Sander's paranoid fears. Seems to be
common to LP bigots, as Jenn seems to be suggesting the same lie.

Sad, indeed, that you seem to enjoy this.

Completely contrived personal attack, based in an obvious lie, noted.

[Arny Krueger]

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant
drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

No Arny, I'm not changing the subject. I'm simply recalling, to the
best of my ability, Harry's point.

Since you have that memory problem Jenn, Harry has be known to say things
like:

"SACD sales ... have been growing rapidly by all accounts. ... "

"In the first half, DVD-Audio sales were up..."

"... combined unit sales will catch up with and equal CD sales."

"...SACD takes hold, we probably ill NOT be having this debate five years in
the future. ... "


The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all
sales,
outperformed the rest.

CD sales went up when Napster and the like were free.
snip

There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales was due
to
Napster.

Knowing about the sales pop during the Napster days was a matter of
having
one's ears open at the time.

Exactly.

Admission that you were out of the loop at the time Jenn?

Not at all Arny. I simply spend a great deal of time with the age group
who seems to do the most illegal downloading.

Since you seem to have expanded college age to be everybody from 10 to 24...

Music has been free as long as there has been radio. Recorded music
has
been
available at terrific discounts from record store prices as long as
there
have been home audio recorders.

Of course.

I remember taping radio and LPs back in the
late 50s.

As do I, but in the late 60s and early 70s.

Therefore there's nothing new about people bootlegging popular
music. All Napster did is decrease the time and effort required for
bootleggng, at the cost of having music in a format that might be
harder
to
listen to when you were away from your PC. There may have also been
SQ
issues, some pretty severe.

I think that you've understated (spelling corrected) this case. The SQ
issue is a MAJOR
difference between recording off the radio with a cassette recorder
(what most people had) and a digital download.

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts that have been presented (example home
recording from consumer media with excellent quality). After all, where
do
most of the MP3s come from from consumers transcribing recordings they
have
purchased or borrowed?

Look 5 paragraphs up, Arny. You mentioned taping from the radio.
That's what I was referring to.

And then I mentioned taping, and then I mentioned music on the PC, and

Distortion of facts by means of out-of-context quotes noted.

A lot of people learned about music that was new to them via MP3
downloads
and exchanges, and ran right out and bought the CDs so they could
enjoy
the
music bette. Guilty as charged!

As I said, there's no solid evidence that this happened in large
numbers.

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her not-yet-admitted
ignorance of relevant facts to "solid evidence".

I said, "There's no evidence that I'm aware of that any bump in sales
was due to Napster." Do you have evidence to the contrary?

You also upped the ante to "solid evidence".

Here's some interestnig evidence:

http://www.cesifo-group.de/pls/guest...fo1_wp1122.pdf

"As a consequence, the recent legal actions and the development of technical
measures of
protection of musical CDs carried by copyright owners may be badly
motivated. Besides, there
are reasons to believe that the music industry might actually benefit from
digital distribution.
Indeed, numerous surveys (documented in Peitz and Waelbroeck 2003b)
highlight the potential
sampling role of digital copies."

What is clear is that when you talked to college aged people
(particularly before iTunes and other pay-per-song services) is that
their hard drives were full of illegal tracks, and that they almost
never bought music anymore.

Contrary to some people's apparent belief, college folks don't define
the
market for music. College students are only a minority of all people
who
buy
music.

Last I looked, the 10-24 demographic was the largest segment of the
recorded music buying population.

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no shame?

Troll ignored.

Jenn dismisses questions that she doesn't want to answer in order to avoid
accountability for her actions.

They often don't have a lot of disposable income.

No kidding, but this doesn't entitle them to steal music, of course.

Is it stealing music to listen to the radio?

Nope. The recording "chain" gives it's permission to use their
recordings in this way, and they derive income from this use.

But there is evidence shown above, that they may derive income from
"sampling" of commercial LPs.

Am I stealing from the History Channel when I time-shift some of their
programs?

Nope. That's referred to as fair use.

Depends who's talking.

Is it stealing music when people make their own music videos from
commercial
audio recordings and post them on YouTube?

That's about to be debated in the courts. Stay tuned.

[Sander deWaal]

Troll ignored.



"Arny Krueger" said:


"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
.. .

"Arny Krueger" said:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

In your glee

Sue me for being in favor of logic and reason, and against empty claims.

to report the demise of "Hi-rez" and vinyl, you're
overlooking the fact that less music overall is sold.

Yeah, total sales of music overall are have *fallen* to the point where
"Total Digital And Physical" sales are *up* almost 30%.

LOL!

Hint to anybody who wants to see Sander's latest lies laid bare - read the
numbers on the bottom line of the cited reference, looking hard for the
number 29.9.

Which, in turn, can mean two things: people find their music through
other (illegal?) channels, of they listen less.

Obviously a *fact* made up to suit Sander's paranoid fears. Seems to be
common to LP bigots, as Jenn seems to be suggesting the same lie.

Sad, indeed, that you seem to enjoy this.

Completely contrived personal attack, based in an obvious lie, noted.



--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[John Atkinson]

On Feb 12, 2:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject...

Since you have that memory problem Jenn...

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts...

Distortion of facts by means of out-of-context quotes
noted...

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her
not-yet-admitted ignorance of relevant facts to "solid
evidence".

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no
shame?

Jenn dismisses questions that she doesn't want to answer
in order to avoid accountability for her actions.

I have listed your contributions above to this thread, Mr.
Krueger, to reveal the inherent nastiness in your
dealings with Jenn. Are you trying to drive yet
another r.a.o. poster away? Take a chill pill, please.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

[Sander deWaal]

"John Atkinson" said:


On Feb 12, 2:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject...

Since you have that memory problem Jenn...

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts...

Distortion of facts by means of out-of-context quotes
noted...

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her
not-yet-admitted ignorance of relevant facts to "solid
evidence".

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no
shame?

Jenn dismisses questions that she doesn't want to answer
in order to avoid accountability for her actions.


I have listed your contributions above to this thread, Mr.
Krueger, to reveal the inherent nastiness in your
dealings with Jenn. Are you trying to drive yet
another r.a.o. poster away? Take a chill pill, please.


Arny has an irrational fear of women, and Jenn in particular.

When she announced her return to RAO, dark clouds accumulated in the
Michigan skies.
And the Lord sent blizzards upon Grosse Pointe, and Arny quivered in
fear, and there was wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant
drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez
formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

No Arny, I'm not changing the subject. I'm simply recalling, to the
best of my ability, Harry's point.

Since you have that memory problem Jenn, Harry has be known to say things
like:

"SACD sales ... have been growing rapidly by all accounts. ... "

"In the first half, DVD-Audio sales were up..."

"... combined unit sales will catch up with and equal CD sales."

"...SACD takes hold, we probably ill NOT be having this debate five years
in the future. ... "



If you are going to quote me Arny, please have the decency to provide a
citation....so that I and others can see them in context. And for that
matter, to confirm that I EVER said combined unit sales of anything was
going to catch up and equal CD sales. You sure you are not just making all
this up...if you fail to provide quotes then I will have to assume you are?

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then vinyl.

I wonder if the dearth of new major label releases has anything to do
with it.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

As it always has, just as high quality cassettes outsold lps in the
eighties.

Stephen

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

And you conclude from this.....what?

It looks very much like those well-known emperor's clothes labelled
DVD-A, SACD and vinyl have been found out by more and more of the
music-loving public.

Or perhaps that public has shifted to online buying because of much
better selection, and the remaining B&M stores are dropping their stock.


I will accept your silence as an acknowledgment of correctness. A simple
okay as i gave you below would have been appropriate.



The major technological changes that relate to LP in the last year or so
include:

(1) Dance music manipulation devices that don't need a vinyl LP to
operate.

Okay

(2) More and more people seem to be digitizing LPs.

Your basis for statement #2?

Since I used the word seem, this could be nothing more than a perception
of mine. However there is a factual basis for this - the frequency of
questions about digitzing vinyl posted and Usenet, the profusion of web
pages about it, the number of products that facilitate it, conversations
with people in real life, etc.


I "seem" to recall that you had a go-to-pieces over this kind of reasoning
when it came to Scotts assertion that the market for Audiophile LP's and
good turntables was in its best shape in years.


I can see where #1 might have relevance to LP sales (but not SACD or
DVD-A).

Good.

What relevance does #2 have to sales of anything (other than
electronics)?

It's quite a bit easier to exchange digital copies of LPs than copy them
by other means...

A pretty big stretch, Arny, as a reason for a decline in LP sales. Far
thinner than *I* would ever want to claim as *my* logic, especially since
its shakiness stands on the shoulders of an already shaky assumption (see
five paragraphs above).

[Arny Krueger]

"John Atkinson" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 12, 2:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject...

Since you have that memory problem Jenn...

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts...

Distortion of facts by means of out-of-context quotes
noted...

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her
not-yet-admitted ignorance of relevant facts to "solid
evidence".

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no
shame?

Jenn dismisses questions that she doesn't want to answer
in order to avoid accountability for her actions.

I have listed your contributions above to this thread, Mr.
Krueger, to reveal the inherent nastiness in your
dealings with Jenn. Are you trying to drive yet
another r.a.o. poster away? Take a chill pill, please.

Since I've contributed far more to this thread than the very selective
quotes that you have made John, it is quite clear that your intents are
highly deceptive. I don't have the time to waste much more effort with yet
another liar.

[Arny Krueger]

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"John Atkinson" said:


On Feb 12, 2:10 pm, "Arny Krueger" wrote:

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject...

Since you have that memory problem Jenn...

Again Jenn avoids relevant facts...

Distortion of facts by means of out-of-context quotes
noted...

Now Jenn tries to raise the ante of proof from her
not-yet-admitted ignorance of relevant facts to "solid
evidence".

Now Jenn expands college age range to 10-24. Has she no
shame?

Jenn dismisses questions that she doesn't want to answer
in order to avoid accountability for her actions.


I have listed your contributions above to this thread, Mr.
Krueger, to reveal the inherent nastiness in your
dealings with Jenn. Are you trying to drive yet
another r.a.o. poster away? Take a chill pill, please.


Arny has an irrational fear of women, and Jenn in particular.

Lies and lies. But keep up the good work, Sander.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant
drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A
and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez
formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

No Arny, I'm not changing the subject. I'm simply recalling, to the
best of my ability, Harry's point.

Since you have that memory problem Jenn, Harry has be known to say things
like:

"SACD sales ... have been growing rapidly by all accounts. ... "

"In the first half, DVD-Audio sales were up..."

"... combined unit sales will catch up with and equal CD sales."

"...SACD takes hold, we probably ill NOT be having this debate five years
in the future. ... "



If you are going to quote me Arny, please have the decency to provide a
citation....so that I and others can see them in context. And for that
matter, to confirm that I EVER said combined unit sales of anything was
going to catch up and equal CD sales. You sure you are not just making
all this up...if you fail to provide quotes then I will have to assume you
are?

I've provided enough text to google up each post almost instantly, Harry.
Thanks for not taking responsibility for what are clearly your posts. That
way I don't have to answer your additional obfuscations.

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said to the Krooborg:

Troll ignored.

Cue Turdy's exultant "debating trade" poop-dance....




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Arny Krueger]

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
. ..

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

And you conclude from this.....what?

It looks very much like those well-known emperor's clothes labelled
DVD-A, SACD and vinyl have been found out by more and more of the
music-loving public.

Or perhaps that public has shifted to online buying because of much
better selection, and the remaining B&M stores are dropping their stock.


I will accept your silence as an acknowledgment of correctness. A simple
okay as i gave you below would have been appropriate.



The major technological changes that relate to LP in the last year or
so include:

(1) Dance music manipulation devices that don't need a vinyl LP to
operate.

Okay

(2) More and more people seem to be digitizing LPs.

Your basis for statement #2?

Since I used the word seem, this could be nothing more than a perception
of mine. However there is a factual basis for this - the frequency of
questions about digitzing vinyl posted and Usenet, the profusion of web
pages about it, the number of products that facilitate it, conversations
with people in real life, etc.

I "seem" to recall that you had a go-to-pieces over this kind of reasoning
when it came to Scotts assertion that the market for Audiophile LP's and
good turntables was in its best shape in years.

Just idle speculation on Harry's part. Not even a few words quoted.

I can see where #1 might have relevance to LP sales (but not SACD or
DVD-A).

Good.

What relevance does #2 have to sales of anything (other than
electronics)?

It's quite a bit easier to exchange digital copies of LPs than copy them
by other means...

A pretty big stretch, Arny, as a reason for a decline in LP sales. Far
thinner than *I* would ever want to claim as *my* logic, especially since
its shakiness stands on the shoulders of an already shaky assumption (see
five paragraphs above).

Yup Harry, dismiss what you can't answer.

[Arny Krueger]

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

I wonder if the dearth of new major label releases has anything to do
with it.

Huh? Wasn;t Sander just regaling us with all of the new hi rez releases?


The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

As it always has, just as high quality cassettes outsold lps in the
eighties.

There has never been a "high quality cassette" in the history of man.
They've categorically sounded even worse than LPs.

[ScottW]

On Feb 12, 10:52 am, "Arny Krueger" wrote:
"Sander deWaal" wrote in message

...

"Arny Krueger" said:
Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:
http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf
SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%
Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.
The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.
In your glee

Sue me for being in favor of logic and reason, and against empty claims.

to report the demise of "Hi-rez" and vinyl, you're
overlooking the fact that less music overall is sold.

Yeah, total sales of music overall are have *fallen* to the point where
"Total Digital And Physical" sales are *up* almost 30%.

Impossible to tell. Complete album sales are down.
Digital downloads of singles and ring tones are way up.

Do these mixed units equate to more music being sold?
Who can tell.

Bottom line the dollars are declining.


LOL!

Hint to anybody who wants to see Sander's latest lies laid bare - read the
numbers on the bottom line of the cited reference, looking hard for the
number 29.9.

Equating ring tones and singles to albums may work for you,
but it doesn't work for me.

ScottW

[George M. Middius]

Sander deWaal said:

I have listed your contributions above to this thread, Mr.
Krueger, to reveal the inherent nastiness in your
dealings with Jenn. Are you trying to drive yet
another r.a.o. poster away? Take a chill pill, please.

Arny has an irrational fear of women,

Yes, we've all seen a mountain of evidence that supports that opinion.

and Jenn in particular.

The more a woman knows about anything, the more Krooger fears her. Jenn
knows a lot about music, orders of magnitude more than Turdy does. The
other female posters in the past (Jennifer from Atlanta and Leslie from
New York are the two I remember) didn't have nearly such a debilitating
effect on the Krooborg. They weren't professional musicians, though.

When she announced her return to RAO, dark clouds accumulated in the
Michigan skies.
And the Lord sent blizzards upon Grosse Pointe, and Arny quivered in
fear, and there was wailing and the gnashing of teeth.

Could be, could be. Or those grotesque sounds might be something more
readily associated with Arnii Krooborg.

;-)





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[George M. Middius]

The Big Bad Krooborg strokes his self-pity organ.

I don't have the time to waste much more effort with yet
another liar.

Filled your recruiting quota for February already, Arnii?

;-)




--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[Sander deWaal]

"Arny Krueger" said:


Lies and lies. But keep up the good work, Sander.


Troll ignored.

--

- Maggies are an addiction for life. -

[Harry Lavo]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
news

"Harry Lavo" wrote in message
...

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
. ..

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message

...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"Jenn" wrote in message
.
com
...
In article ,
Eeyore wrote:

Arny Krueger wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a
significant drop
in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A
and
then
vinyl.

Contrast this with Harry's hype about booming sales of Hi-Rez
formats.

IIRC, Harry's point was concerning number of titles available.

Typical Jenn - she tries to change the subject.

No Arny, I'm not changing the subject. I'm simply recalling, to the
best of my ability, Harry's point.

Since you have that memory problem Jenn, Harry has be known to say
things like:

"SACD sales ... have been growing rapidly by all accounts. ... "

"In the first half, DVD-Audio sales were up..."

"... combined unit sales will catch up with and equal CD sales."

"...SACD takes hold, we probably ill NOT be having this debate five
years in the future. ... "



If you are going to quote me Arny, please have the decency to provide a
citation....so that I and others can see them in context. And for that
matter, to confirm that I EVER said combined unit sales of anything was
going to catch up and equal CD sales. You sure you are not just making
all this up...if you fail to provide quotes then I will have to assume
you are?

I've provided enough text to google up each post almost instantly, Harry.
Thanks for not taking responsibility for what are clearly your posts. That
way I don't have to answer your additional obfuscations.

Lack of courtesy, honesty, and integrity noted for all to contemplate, Arny.

[George M. Middius]

Harry Lavo said:

Thanks for not taking responsibility for what are clearly your posts. That
way I don't have to answer your additional obfuscations.

Lack of courtesy, honesty, and integrity noted for all to contemplate, Arny.

Thank Harrrry for, admitting Harrey that you have no debating trade chops,
in the snow Hareye.





--

Krooscience: The antidote to education, experience, and excellence.

[MiNe 109]

In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

"MiNe 109" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Arny Krueger" wrote:

Most recent RIAA figures show that there has been a significant drop in
retail sales of all physical formats:

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/...midYrStats.pdf

SACD down by 44.6%
DVD-A down by 35.1%
Vinyl down by 32.3%
CD was down by 14.3%

Note that the list of biggest losers was led by SACD, DVD-A and then
vinyl.

I wonder if the dearth of new major label releases has anything to do
with it.

Huh? Wasn;t Sander just regaling us with all of the new hi rez releases?

Most often found on specialty labels, not majors. You'd think Sony
wouldn't sell anything but hybrid SACDs. Go figure.

The traditional CD format, which amounted for about 99% of all sales,
outperformed the rest.

As it always has, just as high quality cassettes outsold lps in the
eighties.

There has never been a "high quality cassette" in the history of man.
They've categorically sounded even worse than LPs.

My bad. Change to "just as the inferior cassette outsold lps in the
eighties."

Stephen