Does *anyone* on this thread have a ****ing clue about vintage
guitar amps? B-? WTF?

LV




Fred Gilham wrote:

Dave Curtis wrote:
Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been
known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester
will.

If the "death cap" is the cap that isolates the chassis from the B-,
then the isolation transformer WILL save you! It *isolates* the amp
from the line. There is no electrical reference between the line,
either hot or neutral, and the internals of the amp. So if the cap
shorts then you now have the chassis at B- potential, but still no
reference between the chassis and the line. If you grounded the
chassis using a 3-wire plug, then if the cap shorts you'll reference
the B- to ground. This is *still* not a hazardous situation.

You can compare an isolation transformer to a "wall wart". You can
hold the connector end of a typical wall wart without worrying about
getting a shock even if you touch your cold water pipe. A wall wart
is an isolation tranformer with a little rectifying and filtering
circuitry. Some wall warts, the kind with AC output, don't even have
that rectifiers and filters; they are only isolation transformers.
You don't have to worry about any strange voltages coming from the AC
line showing up on the connector of a wall wart. That's what an
isolation transformer does. Of course the output of a 120V isolation
transformer is still dangerous, but it is an *expected* danger.

If the "death cap" shorts, and you've checked your socket rather than
install an isolation transformer, then you'll have the chassis at
neutral. Great for you. Then you loan your amp out to some bozo who
takes it to a club that was wired up by the owner's friends one
weekend and your amp ends up killing off the lead singer (the owner's
girlfriend) and the drummer. Admittedly not a complete disaster but
doubtless a few people are still going to be peeved.

--
Fred Gilham
I can't escape the sensation that I have already been thinking in Lisp
all my programming career, but forcing the ideas into the constraints
of bad languages, which explode those ideas into a bewildering array
of details, most of which are workarounds for the language.
--Kaz Kylheku

"Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
...

"bulldog" wrote in message
om...
Sander deWaal wrote in message
. ..
(bulldog) said:

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
us can take it no problem.

geoff


What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
Atlantic
in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))

Iain

HEY - YOURE CROSSPOSTING ALL OVER... GIVE IT A REST


"Lord Valve" wrote in message
...
Does *anyone* on this thread have a ****ing clue about vintage
guitar amps? B-? WTF?

LV




Fred Gilham wrote:

Dave Curtis wrote:
Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been
known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester
will.

If the "death cap" is the cap that isolates the chassis from the B-,
then the isolation transformer WILL save you! It *isolates* the amp
from the line. There is no electrical reference between the line,
either hot or neutral, and the internals of the amp. So if the cap
shorts then you now have the chassis at B- potential, but still no
reference between the chassis and the line. If you grounded the
chassis using a 3-wire plug, then if the cap shorts you'll reference
the B- to ground. This is *still* not a hazardous situation.

You can compare an isolation transformer to a "wall wart". You can
hold the connector end of a typical wall wart without worrying about
getting a shock even if you touch your cold water pipe. A wall wart
is an isolation tranformer with a little rectifying and filtering
circuitry. Some wall warts, the kind with AC output, don't even have
that rectifiers and filters; they are only isolation transformers.
You don't have to worry about any strange voltages coming from the AC
line showing up on the connector of a wall wart. That's what an
isolation transformer does. Of course the output of a 120V isolation
transformer is still dangerous, but it is an *expected* danger.

If the "death cap" shorts, and you've checked your socket rather than
install an isolation transformer, then you'll have the chassis at
neutral. Great for you. Then you loan your amp out to some bozo who
takes it to a club that was wired up by the owner's friends one
weekend and your amp ends up killing off the lead singer (the owner's
girlfriend) and the drummer. Admittedly not a complete disaster but
doubtless a few people are still going to be peeved.

--
Fred Gilham
I can't escape the sensation that I have already been thinking in Lisp
all my programming career, but forcing the ideas into the constraints
of bad languages, which explode those ideas into a bewildering array
of details, most of which are workarounds for the language.
--Kaz Kylheku

HEY - SO ARE YOU.

No likee, no clickee, sport.

LV




RAY BOYCE wrote:

HEY - YOURE CROSSPOSTING ALL OVER... GIVE IT A REST

"Lord Valve" wrote in message
...
Does *anyone* on this thread have a ****ing clue about vintage
guitar amps? B-? WTF?

LV




Fred Gilham wrote:

Dave Curtis wrote:
Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been
known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester
will.

If the "death cap" is the cap that isolates the chassis from the B-,
then the isolation transformer WILL save you! It *isolates* the amp
from the line. There is no electrical reference between the line,
either hot or neutral, and the internals of the amp. So if the cap
shorts then you now have the chassis at B- potential, but still no
reference between the chassis and the line. If you grounded the
chassis using a 3-wire plug, then if the cap shorts you'll reference
the B- to ground. This is *still* not a hazardous situation.

You can compare an isolation transformer to a "wall wart". You can
hold the connector end of a typical wall wart without worrying about
getting a shock even if you touch your cold water pipe. A wall wart
is an isolation tranformer with a little rectifying and filtering
circuitry. Some wall warts, the kind with AC output, don't even have
that rectifiers and filters; they are only isolation transformers.
You don't have to worry about any strange voltages coming from the AC
line showing up on the connector of a wall wart. That's what an
isolation transformer does. Of course the output of a 120V isolation
transformer is still dangerous, but it is an *expected* danger.

If the "death cap" shorts, and you've checked your socket rather than
install an isolation transformer, then you'll have the chassis at
neutral. Great for you. Then you loan your amp out to some bozo who
takes it to a club that was wired up by the owner's friends one
weekend and your amp ends up killing off the lead singer (the owner's
girlfriend) and the drummer. Admittedly not a complete disaster but
doubtless a few people are still going to be peeved.

--
Fred Gilham
I can't escape the sensation that I have already been thinking in Lisp
all my programming career, but forcing the ideas into the constraints
of bad languages, which explode those ideas into a bewildering array
of details, most of which are workarounds for the language.
--Kaz Kylheku

"Iain M Churches" in
:
:
: "Geoff Wood" -nospam wrote in message
: ...
:
: "bulldog" wrote in message
: om...
: Sander deWaal wrote in message
: . ..
: (bulldog) said:
:
: Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about a
: healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists like
: us can take it no problem.
:
: geoff

Have to say I thought that was "Iberial" in Arial font ...
(i.e. from Iberia;-) (still looks the same as I write:-)

: What about we "Good strong christofascists" on the other side of the
: Atlantic
: in Europe. We have 230-240VAC. Do you think we can take it? :-))
:
: Iain

Sure. Just build one of these and test yourself, uh, out;-)
http://www.emanator.demon.co.uk/bigclive/tickle.htm

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1101141044k@trad...

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

"Kruse" wrote in message
m...
(Mike Rivers) wrote in message
news:znr1101141044k@trad...

Yes, I don't understand Lord Valve. He seems to have a good reputation
for both knowledge and stock, but the few times he's descended on this
newsgroup (rec.audio.pro, in case this is cross-posted and I didn't
notice) he's been a real jerk in print. Not good in a crowd.

BUT, he makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here. When somebody is giving out wrong and
bad information, it needs to be corrected. Especially when it is
life threatening.
And no, I am not related to him and have never done business with him.

Dunno what the rules are where he come's from.. But in this socialist
paradise, if I repair something I have to put a sticker on it, signed by me,
saying that it has been tested to comply with electrical safety regulations.
How's that for personal responsibilty ?

But then, we do have national electrical safety regulations...

geoff

What a great word, "Christofascists"
Darwin who?

Tom

"Sander deWaal" wrote in message
...
"Geoff Wood" -nospam said:

Anyway, only pansy lberial commie socialist cry-babies would worry about
a
healthy dose of mains up the armpit, eh. Good strong christofascists
like
us can take it no problem.

Then you assume Lord Valve is a pansy liberal commie socialist
crybaby?

BTW congrats on the creative use of language, LMAO! :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

In article v6b4q0d3rd330opnbje6qf5i9gnontl9et@
4ax.com, says...
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:09:47 -0800, Steve Perry
wrote:

"We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on their way out."
Kinda wonder if the guy who said that later jumped of a bridge ...

"No one will ever need more than four megabytes of ram."

- Bill Gates

Did he actually revise it upward, from the
original 640 *kb*?

:-))))

In article , Lord Valve
wrote:

Does *anyone* on this thread have a ****ing clue about vintage
guitar amps? B-? WTF?

LV



Not me old son.

My Marshall only has 11 valves.

But then I wasn't posting.

MJRB

In article writes:

BUT, he [Lord Valve] makes his living fixing tube amps. Of all the people reading this
thread (remember to how many groups that it's cross posted to) very few
people can say that. When it comes to fixing tubes amps I would listen to
him more closely than anybody here.

Maybe people who need their toob amps fixed are just tough guys who
like other guys who talk tough.

Did he give an explanation of why a chassis becomes hot? I'm sure he
could, but instead, chose to attack a participant. That doesn't give a
good impression for a businessman.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

Does *anyone* on this thread have a ****ing clue about vintage
guitar amps? B-? WTF?

If you look on the Silvertone schematic (at least the 1430 model) you
will see, at the bottom, a "B-" with an arrow pointing to the common
line for where all the negative stuff goes. I don't want to call it
ground return because it's not grounded. It is hooked up to one side
of the line through the switch. So I'm just using the terminology of
the maker of the equipment.

--
Fred Gilham
All languages have Lisp syntax, of course, except that so many of them
insist on encrypting it using a mechanism called "grammar."
-- Drew McDermott

On Tue, 23 Nov 2004 08:29:37 -0500, CompUser
wrote:

In article v6b4q0d3rd330opnbje6qf5i9gnontl9et@
4ax.com, says...
On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:09:47 -0800, Steve Perry
wrote:

"We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on their way out."
Kinda wonder if the guy who said that later jumped of a bridge ...

"No one will ever need more than four megabytes of ram."

- Bill Gates

Did he actually revise it upward, from the
original 640 *kb*?

:-))))

To be fair to Bill, we probably wouldn't need more than 4MB if we
didn't run Microshaft software............................ :-)
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

Stewart Pinkerton wrote in message . ..
On 19 Nov 2004 20:43:06 -0800, (Chuck) wrote:

snip

Guys, it's not THAT hard or THAT dangerous. Of course precautions must
be taken, and knowledge gained, but remember, people didn't die by the
thousands in the years before the three pronged plug. Many, many of us
have been shocked on stage, in the basement, at the workbench; almost
all who are shocked survive. I'm not trying to minimize the dangers,
mind you. I'm just saying that foregoing the pleasures of a vintage
amp because you aren't 100% certain of its safety might be overdoing
it. The FAQs here are great for getting basic safety guidelines under
your belt, and there's a wealth of information elsewhere too.

As the electrician who rewired the house told me -it's only 110, if
that stops you, you should stick to batteries.

Good job he didn't live in Europe................

It's 230, it will frequently kill you!

Er, that's just once each, you understand......... :-)

Just making the poiunt that in an international forum, it's worth
remembering that advice given in one location may prove lethal in
another. That's one reason why I am making no comment whatever
regarding this particular amplifier, save to comment that there are
plenty of completely safe modern tube amps which will give you exactly
the same sound as those vintage guitar amps.


Yes it's common knowledge that all Vintage amps are basically a death
sentence and you should all stop buying them so the prices will drop
and I can buy them all!

Chris

(Guncho) said:

Yes it's common knowledge that all Vintage amps are basically a death
sentence and you should all stop buying them so the prices will drop
and I can buy them all!

LOL!!!!!
You *do* have one or more isolation transformers, I presume? :-)

--
Sander de Waal
" SOA of a KT88? Sufficient. "

"D. Lemon" wrote in message ...

A hand-wired, point-to-point, class A vintage tube amp for that "mojo'
tone - that's the ticket! My ignorance was bliss.

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply. Second, take it to a tech and have them
bring it up to modern safety standards.

Third, don't bring it to a gig. Bring a POD instead.

Thankfully, I play jazz, and it has been a long time since I've seen a
tube amp on the bandstand.

In article writes:

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply.

Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
power transformers here?

This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.


--
I'm really Mike Rivers )
However, until the spam goes away or Hell freezes over,
lots of IP addresses are blocked from this system. If
you e-mail me and it bounces, use your secret decoder ring
and reach me he double-m-eleven-double-zero at yahoo

"Steve Perry" wrote in message
news:221120041009478801%perry1966spamstopper@comca st.net...
In article , Dave Curtis
wrote:

"markedwane" wrote:

A GFCI, snip trips well below the threshold of
sensation

That's just *not true*. If you grab both the 120v
conductor and the neutral of a GFCI-protected
circuit, I *guarantee* you will feel something far
above the threshold of sensation. Don't try it,
please take my word for it.

Do NOT rely on a GFCI to open the circuit in time
to save your life. It might, but then again, it
might not.

Yeah, I like to remember the last words of General John Sedgewick at
the Battle of Spotsylvania, during the War Between the States: "What
are you men jumping around for? They couldn't hit an elephant at this
dist -- "

Kinda like what Decca Records said about the Beatles in the early
sixites, when they turned them down for a recording contract:

"We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on their way out."
Kinda wonder if the guy who said that later jumped of a bridge ...

--
Steve

I bet Pete Best wakes up every morning and says, ".............Damn
it!............".

(Mike Rivers) wrote in message news:znr1101299358k@trad...
In article writes:

Here are my suggestions. First, forget about hot chassis amps -- there
are enough designs out there to allow choosing one with an isolation
transformer power supply.

Are there truly hot-chassis amplifiers that serious vintage tone
lovers really want? Or are we talking about broken amplifiers with
power transformers here?

This discussion is getting a little silly-paranoid. If Some Famous
Guitarist really uses a three-tube-no-power-transformer amplfier to
get "that sound" I'm sure he has it well isolated so he will continue
to be able to gig for many years. But I'll bet nobody really uses
those things no matter how popular trash is in the guitar field.

You'd be surprised at what people will dredge up out of the closet and
plug a guitar into. I have never seen hot chassis gear, but plenty of
other things. One time I got to the gig with easily five minutes to
spare, and the guitarist had been there for an hour hooking up an
amazing assemblage that included an old Marshall with a two-wire cord,
some 240 Volt gadgets plugged into an autotransformer, and a
relatively new "boutique" tube amp. All powered by a combination of
those cheap two-prong extensions with the three little outlets on one
end. The three-prong plugs were stuck into the outlets so the third
prong was doing nothing. The Marshall was being used for vocals. And
he told me he sometimes got a shock from it.

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

Georg Grosz wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear.

You should get out more.

LV

"play-on" wrote in message
news
On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

Blues

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote in message
news
On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800, (Georg Grosz)
wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

Al

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

Blues


BB king plays a Lab Series.

LV

"play-on" wrote in message
news : On 24 Nov 2004 17:38:51 -0800,
(Georg Grosz)
: wrote:
:
: From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the
ones using modern
: solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being
used by some rock
: and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly
small solid state
: amps.
:
: Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to
talk about really
: "famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being
totally unknown to
: the general public) the vast majority continue to use
tube amps.
:
: Al

And may I also add, that Al's vast majority of "famous"
guitar players above usually have only a cord between
the ax and the amp. It is all in the fingers, so save
yourself a lot of dough and learn to play like they
play instead of spending all your time and money on
gimmicks that may make your playing sound like their
sound but your playing still sounds like you playing. .

Phil

On 22 Nov 2004 19:42:34 -0800, Fred Gilham
wrote:


Dave Curtis wrote:
Let's say that old amp's "death cap" decides to short out (been
known to happen). The isolation tranny won't help you. The $2 tester
will.

If the "death cap" is the cap that isolates the chassis from the B-,
then the isolation transformer WILL save you!

IF? (???) What's B-? We're not talking
battery-powered radios, here. If you don't know
what the "death cap" is, you should find out
before you post about it. BTW, not a lot of
series-heater amps had this cap, anyway.

It *isolates* the amp
from the line. There is no electrical reference between the line,
either hot or neutral, and the internals of the amp. So if the cap
shorts then you now have the chassis at B- potential, but still no
reference between the chassis and the line.

If it has a balanced output, you'll get 60VAC to
the chassis through that cap no matter how you
plug it in, even if it's not shorted. A neon
tester will confirm this.

If you grounded the
chassis using a 3-wire plug,

Then that cap is history.

then if the cap shorts you'll reference
the B- to ground. This is *still* not a hazardous situation.

If it has an unbalanced output, you'll get 120VAC
through the cap depending on how it's plugged in
(even if that cap is good).

You can compare an isolation transformer to a "wall wart". You can
hold the connector end of a typical wall wart without worrying about
getting a shock even if you touch your cold water pipe. A wall wart
is an isolation tranformer with a little rectifying and filtering
circuitry. Some wall warts, the kind with AC output, don't even have
that rectifiers and filters; they are only isolation transformers.

Clue: All transformers isolate. It's their nature

You don't have to worry about any strange voltages coming from the AC
line showing up on the connector of a wall wart. That's what an
isolation transformer does. Of course the output of a 120V isolation
transformer is still dangerous, but it is an *expected* danger.

I've been doing electrical work for over 30 years,
and fixing amps for the last 5 as well, so I'm
more than just a bit familiar with the topic.

If the "death cap" shorts, and you've checked your socket rather than
install an isolation transformer, then you'll have the chassis at
neutral. Great for you. Then you loan your amp out to some bozo who
takes it to a club that was wired up by the owner's friends one
weekend and your amp ends up killing off the lead singer (the owner's
girlfriend) and the drummer. Admittedly not a complete disaster but
doubtless a few people are still going to be peeved.

For that very reason, I'd never loan an amp in
that condition, especially to "some bozo".

My main point is that the NE2 neon tester will
tell you quickly, easily and cheaply whether or
not your chassis is hot. Isolation transformer or
not.

-Dave Curtis
Electrician, Technician, Musician.

On 23 Nov 2004 06:43:34 -0800, Fred Gilham
wrote:

I don't want to call it
ground return because it's not grounded.

It's grounded through the .05 cap. It *is* a
ground return. Plug it in the wrong way and the
chassis will be hot.

B- is a holdover from the battery days (way
vintage), and really shouldn't be on this
schematic.

-Dave Curtis
Electrician, Technician, Musician.

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

B- is a holdover from the battery days (way
vintage), and really shouldn't be on this
schematic.

B- is not an uncommon term. See the following schematic:

http://antiqueradio.org/art/gt051.jpg

I heard this term used when I was in a class where we built an
All-American-5 radio back in the mid '60s.

Anyway the point of all this ranting is that the safest way to use
such equipment is with an isolation transformer.

--
Fred Gilham
Democracy and capitalism seem to have triumphed. But, appearances can
be deceiving. Instead of celebrating capitalism's virtues, we offer
it grudging acceptance, contemptuous tolerance but only for its
capacity to feed the insatiable maw of socialism. We do not conclude
that socialism suffers from a fundamental and profound flaw. We
conclude instead that its ends are worthy of any sacrifice including
our freedom... -- Janice Rogers Brown

Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV,

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

LV,

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

LV

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

"Harvey Gerst" wrote in message
...
Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using
modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by
some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid
state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about
really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally
unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube
amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a
single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get
out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/


Finally...celebrity death match warm up, Harvey vs. Valve.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004 00:28:50 -0600, Harvey Gerst
wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:



Harvey Gerst wrote:

Lord Valve wrote:

Blues_Jam wrote:

"play-on" wrote:
(Georg Grosz) wrote:

From what I can tell, the famous guitarists are the ones using modern
solid state gear. There may still be tube amps being used by some rock
and blues players, but on jazz gigs, I see mostly small solid state
amps.

Maybe jazz players use them, but if you are going to talk about really
"famous" guitar players (most jazz guitarist being totally unknown to
the general public) the vast majority continue to use tube amps.

I agree, Larry Carlton is a notable example and I don't know of a single
blues guitarist who doesn't use tubes. Then again, I don't get out much
either

BB king plays a Lab Series.

Albert King played a solid state amp.

Yes, an Acoustic 270, as I recall.

Heard it live. Sounded like ass. Admittedly, it was *LOUD* ass,
but it was still ass. Betcha cash money he didn't record with one.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Discuss.

play-on wrote:

Harvey Gerst wrote:
Lord Valve wrote:

Albert King played a solid state amp.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

True, I just knew Albert.

Harvey Gerst
Indian Trail Recording Studio
http://www.ITRstudio.com/

Karl Uppiano wrote:
But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved building
an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid state
amps sound different.

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound different.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.
---scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
Karl Uppiano wrote:
But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps? Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Hell, I have been doing this since before freshman circuits lab involved
building
an AA5 radio, and I'm not really sure all the reasons why tube and solid
state
amps sound different.

I wonder if anyone has done any controlled research on this. Musical
instrument amplifiers tend to be overdriven a lot, or rely on non-linear
characteristics. Tubes and transistors have obvious differences in their
behavior in overload, partially due to the dramatically different design
philosophies and parameters. Under strictly linear operating conditions,
It's a lot harder to explain sonic differences, if any (especially if noise,
frequency response and distortion are similar in the amplifiers being
compared).

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path
(or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Partially, but I can build you a zero-feedback tube amp and a
zero-feedback
solid state amp with the same output transformer and they'll sound
different.

Are there any *measureable* differences between them? Are they running into
overload at any time?

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Sure, but the curves are different. Hell, for that matter, the curves on
beam power tetrodes and straight pentodes are totally different. And the
curves on different FET configurations are different. It's all different.
It's a wonder anyone can agree on how things should sound at all.

FET curves look a lot like tetrode curves to me, although the voltages and
currents are much different. Some high-end tube enthusiasts only like to
listen to triode amplifiers. Sometimes, only class-A amplifiers, despite the
fact that the price per watt becomes enormous.

My personal belief is that the quest for highest fidelity, from an
engineering perspective (i.e., numerically, scientifically and objectively)
is most easily accomplished using BJT designs. But if money (and
reliability, repeatability and consistency) is no object, some interesting
creations can be made by trial-and-error using other devices. This is a
generalization, of course. I have designed with JFETs and MOSFETs or opamps
because of some specific design requirement or another with very predictable
results. So far, I have never been called upon by any employer to design any
tube gear.

For musical instrument amplifiers, and live recording (where the maximum
level is not known in advance) tubes may have the advantage due to the way
they overload. But according to articles I've read on the subject, this is
partially due (as I said in my earlier post) to the amount of feedback, and
the amount of iron in the audio path, as well as tube characteristics
themselves.

Of course, this is all speculation until someone actually publishes some
scientific research, which may never happen. I doubt there's any money in
it. I often wonder how audio history would have looked if FETs were the
first transistors, instead of BJTs. The transition to solid state design
would have been much smoother, I think.

Harvey Gerst wrote:

play-on wrote:

Harvey Gerst wrote:
Lord Valve wrote:

Albert King played a solid state amp.

I think it was an Acoustic 261 and yes, he did record with it.

Still sounded like ass live.

Well, Albert seemed to like it.

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Al

True, I just knew Albert.

Hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

No-one said you can't like amps that sound like ass.
I don't make the rules, I'm just an observer. If you're
in love with three-legged fuses, no reason Albert can't
be too. I know a few folks who aren't; turn your radio
on and have a listen, won't you? It's all good. ;-)


Lord Valve
Tone Chaperone

VISIT MY WEBSITE: http://www.nebsnow.com/LordValve
I specialize in top quality HAND SELECTED NOS and
current-production vacuum tubes for guitar and
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Phone orders/tech support after 1:30 PM Denver time at 303-778-1156

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Karl Uppiano wrote:

But Harvey, you must remember, LV knows everything.

Does he know *why* tube amps sound different than transistor amps?

Probably. ;-)

Does he
know *how* a transistor amp might be designed to sound like a tube amp?

Does he give a ****? Probably not. ;-)

Hint: It has to do with how these amps overload, iron in the signal path (or
lack of it), and the amount, type and speed of feedback, etc.

Gosh, thanks.

Hint: Tubes *and* FETs are both field-effect devices.

Hint: trons need plenty of room to frolic.

Now, if you wanna squish 'em all up into an itty-bitty
piece of sand, you go right ahead. I prefer free-range
organic trons which have plenty of room to do the bop,
the shimmy, the shake, or whatever other gyrations
their little homespun inspiration may lead them to try.
Don't need no consarned foreign molecules in the
way, or no dope, neither.

Discuss.

Go right ahead.

Lord Valve
Uberrohrenfuhrer, Thousand Year Glass Reich