Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics andmain stereo pair
Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp
sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? cheers |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
lewdslewrate wrote:
Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? cheers What you're after is the distance between the two pairs, measured by the speed of sound from one pair to the next. Standing close to the main pair reduces the amount of room spill into those and makes it easier to align the waveforms in post. Regardless of where you stand the distance, and therefore the delay time, remains the same for the given ambient temperature and barometric pressure. Proximity to the main pair puts the source of the impulse as close as possible to both pairs, simplifying the postproduction alignment process. -- shut up and play your guitar * http://hankalrich.com/ http://armadillomusicproductions.com/who'slistening.html http://www.sonicbids.com/HankandShai...withDougHarman |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
|
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
"Frank Stearns" wrote in message acquisition... (hank alrich) writes: lewdslewrate wrote: Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? cheers Be sure to specify exactly what kind of clap you are requesting. |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
malachi wrote:
Be sure to specify exactly what kind of clap you are requesting. Single hand has the lowest measurable distortion and excellent aural safety but s/n tends to be poor. kind regards Peter Larsen |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
lewdslewrate wrote:
Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? It is a good simple distance measurement that stays with the recorded tracks. So go to each mic, clap and identify the mic. Some day you may be glad you did just that. It does however not replace a drawing of the session lay-out, it supplemenets it. It is also nice to have some photographs. cheers Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
"lewdslewrate" wrote in message
Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? If you are following the 3:1 rule, setting delays is arguably futile. You solved the problem a better way. Going for milisecond timing when micing a choir ignores the whole purpose of a choir, which is spreading the spectrum of the vocal music in frequency and time. |
#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
Arny Krueger wrote:
"lewdslewrate" wrote in message Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? If you are following the 3:1 rule, setting delays is arguably futile. You solved the problem a better way. He's talking about mixing spot and ambient mikes for recording, not PA. Going for milisecond timing when micing a choir ignores the whole purpose of a choir, which is spreading the spectrum of the vocal music in frequency and time. That is true, though. But remember, your spot mikes are getting everything, including the orchestra. Proper timing can reduce their influence on the rest of the ensemble. But it's something you can readily do by ear; when the offset is right, it's pretty clear. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot micsand main stereo pair
On 4/16/2011 4:31 AM, Peter Larsen wrote:
malachi wrote: Be sure to specify exactly what kind of clap you are requesting. Single hand has the lowest measurable distortion and excellent aural safety but s/n tends to be poor. kind regards Peter Larsen Then there's always Steve Howe's Clap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KN2qvtosmM Later... Ron Capik -- |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
|
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "lewdslewrate" wrote in message Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? If you are following the 3:1 rule, setting delays is arguably futile. You solved the problem a better way. He's talking about mixing spot and ambient mikes for recording, not PA. I was unaware that the 3:1 rule did not hold for recording. I'm pretty sure that most authories say that it does. The underlying physics say that it should. Fool that I am, I always try to honor it. Going for milisecond timing when micing a choir ignores the whole purpose of a choir, which is spreading the spectrum of the vocal music in frequency and time. That is true, though. But remember, your spot mikes are getting everything, including the orchestra. One might look at an orchestra as an instrumental choir... Proper timing can reduce their influence on the rest of the ensemble. But it's something you can readily do by ear; when the offset is right, it's pretty clear. --scott Again, that's one of those things for which really good unbiased evidence does not exist. It would seem to me that time alignment would have a benefit where you can't honor the 3:1 rule without it. |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: "lewdslewrate" wrote in message Hopefully a quickie. I read somewhere that a clap or other sharp sound can be used to set an aural reference to help setting delays between spot mics and a main stereo pair...for example. Post said stand under main pair and clap.......would it not be better to stand in front of (choir) spot and clap?? or am i missing something? If you are following the 3:1 rule, setting delays is arguably futile. You solved the problem a better way. He's talking about mixing spot and ambient mikes for recording, not PA. I was unaware that the 3:1 rule did not hold for recording. I'm pretty sure that most authories say that it does. The underlying physics say that it should. Fool that I am, I always try to honor it. Are you sure you understand the point of the 3:1 rule? It is only a very, very rough rule which applies to mixing spot-mikes on instruments, and only to microphones with a particular pattern. It does not apply at all once you start getting into the far field. It does not apply once the pattern stops being an even cardioid. It does not apply once you start talking about stereo pairs. It does not apply in situations where comb filtering can be used to your advantage either. Proper timing can reduce their influence on the rest of the ensemble. But it's something you can readily do by ear; when the offset is right, it's pretty clear. Again, that's one of those things for which really good unbiased evidence does not exist. It would seem to me that time alignment would have a benefit where you can't honor the 3:1 rule without it. I'm not sure you understand the point of the 3:1 "rule." --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
Ron Capik wrote:
On 4/16/2011 4:31 AM, Peter Larsen wrote: malachi wrote: Be sure to specify exactly what kind of clap you are requesting. Single hand has the lowest measurable distortion and excellent aural safety but s/n tends to be poor. Then there's always Steve Howe's Clap: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KN2qvtosmM Happy guitar, [like] Later... Ron Capik Kind regards Peter Larsen |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: I was unaware that the 3:1 rule did not hold for recording. I'm pretty sure that most authories say that it does. The underlying physics say that it should. Fool that I am, I always try to honor it. Are you sure you understand the point of the 3:1 rule? Well, I understand it well enough to benefit from it from time to time. It is only a very, very rough rule which applies to mixing spot-mikes on instruments, and only to microphones with a particular pattern. I was unware of those *restrictions*. I know what the 3:1 rule tries to address and of course its a rough rule. But I was unaware that it only applied to spot mics, and mics with a certain patterns. It seems to me that the comb filtering it addresses may or may not be a problem depending on pickup pattern but I can how you can end up with comb filtering with a variety of mic patterns. It does not apply at all once you start getting into the far field. I thought it was well known that far field is outside its realm of applicability. Seems like common sense. It does not apply once the pattern stops being an even cardioid. I don't see that. Please explain. It does not apply once you start talking about stereo pairs. Within the pair or over all? It does not apply in situations where comb filtering can be used to your advantage either. That seems obvious since the 3:1 rule is about avoiding comb filtering. Proper timing can reduce their influence on the rest of the ensemble. But it's something you can readily do by ear; when the offset is right, it's pretty clear. Again, that's one of those things for which really good unbiased evidence does not exist. It would seem to me that time alignment would have a benefit where you can't honor the 3:1 rule without it. I'm not sure you understand the point of the 3:1 "rule." I'm not sure you managed to shed any light other than a mixture of obvious and unexplained points. Besides you made a general claim that the 3:1 rule does not hold for recording and then added all these qualifications. In the end you only supported the idea that the 3:1 doesn't always hold in every case, which seems obvious. |
#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message It does not apply once the pattern stops being an even cardioid. I don't see that. Please explain. If the microphone is an omni, it will pick up more external sound, and correspondingly will need to be closer to the source in order to have the same ratio of direct to diffuse sound. Likewise if it is a hypercardioid, it can be farther. The 3:1 rule isn't _just_ about time delay, it's also about amplitude. It does not apply once you start talking about stereo pairs. Within the pair or over all? Overall, because you're dealing with the far field at that point. You don't stick stereo pairs up into instruments. Besides you made a general claim that the 3:1 rule does not hold for recording and then added all these qualifications. I didn't, someone else said it didn't hold for recording. Since the example was of far-field recording, I would agree that it certainly doesn't apply there. In the end you only supported the idea that the 3:1 doesn't always hold in every case, which seems obvious. It holds in only very few cases, which is not to say that it's not a good general rule in those cases. But it can be very misleading. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
Arny Krueger wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message It does not apply once the pattern stops being an even cardioid. I don't see that. Please explain. If the microphone is an omni, it will pick up more external sound, and correspondingly will need to be closer to the source in order to have the same ratio of direct to diffuse sound. Likewise if it is a hypercardioid, it can be farther. Well yes, but saying that you can vary the target ratio based on microphone directivity and orientation is not the same as trashing the basic idea. I checked about a dozen renditions of the meaning of the 3:1 rule and *none* restricted it to a certain pickup patten. The 3:1 rule isn't _just_ about time delay, it's also about amplitude. Yes, its about the ratio of the two. One source pointed out that it presumes that the sources have equal loudness and are mixed to equal loudness. Seems true. It does not apply once you start talking about stereo pairs. Within the pair or over all? Overall, because you're dealing with the far field at that point. You don't stick stereo pairs up into instruments. Check. Besides you made a general claim that the 3:1 rule does not hold for recording and then added all these qualifications. I didn't, someone else said it didn't hold for recording. Since the example was of far-field recording, I would agree that it certainly doesn't apply there. So you believe in adding time delays to mics in the far field? In the end you only supported the idea that the 3:1 doesn't always hold in every case, which seems obvious. It holds in only very few cases, which is not to say that it's not a good general rule in those cases. But it can be very misleading. --scott Lets be clear - its a rule of thumb, not a scientific law. |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
|
|||
|
|||
aural reference clap for setting delays between choir spot mics and main stereo pair
Arny Krueger wrote:
"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message Arny Krueger wrote: "Scott Dorsey" wrote in message It does not apply once the pattern stops being an even cardioid. I don't see that. Please explain. If the microphone is an omni, it will pick up more external sound, and correspondingly will need to be closer to the source in order to have the same ratio of direct to diffuse sound. Likewise if it is a hypercardioid, it can be farther. Well yes, but saying that you can vary the target ratio based on microphone directivity and orientation is not the same as trashing the basic idea. It is a rule that has so many exceptions that it's hardly a rule at all. I checked about a dozen renditions of the meaning of the 3:1 rule and *none* restricted it to a certain pickup patten. I know, this is much of the problem. You'll see it stated in a whole bunch of ways all over the place and nobody ever BEGINS to list the limitations. The 3:1 rule isn't _just_ about time delay, it's also about amplitude. Yes, its about the ratio of the two. One source pointed out that it presumes that the sources have equal loudness and are mixed to equal loudness. Seems true. That's true also. I didn't, someone else said it didn't hold for recording. Since the example was of far-field recording, I would agree that it certainly doesn't apply there. So you believe in adding time delays to mics in the far field? When it sounds good. Not when it doesn't sound good. But that is a different problem altogether and not related to the 3:1 rule. More likely, though, you need to _advance_ microphones in the far field to make them line up with spots. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
Reply |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
FA: Stereo Pair of Altec/WE 639B Ribbon Mics | Pro Audio | |||
MXL 603s as choir mics? | Pro Audio | |||
Need great choir mics for SR. | Pro Audio | |||
recording choir with unmatched mics | Pro Audio | |||
need new pair of spot mics for chamber ensemble | Pro Audio |