Wish you guys would quit cross posting.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Reggie Bar wrote:
****witted Top Post fixed

On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:00:25 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv

wrote
on Thu, 27 May 2004 09:21:39 -0500
:
"T.G.Reaper" wrote:

Like you said, it's easy to install Linux. The real
fun, is what
happens after that. When the new Linux user wants to
read his
email, copy all his favorites over from his old
machine/drive,
play streaming audio, or video, download binaries from
the Net,
burn CDs, etc, etc, etc. Is someone supposed to show
him/her all
that, or are they just supposed to:
"pick-it-up-on-their-own?"

Do you think the average fool learned Windoze in a day?
I hate to
break it to you, but operating a computer is a life
skill that's
worth investing a little bit of time in. God forbid
someone should
take a class (many do, all for Windoze, of course) or
read a book.


Windows can be learned in a few seconds. Mouse thing to
your right, move, press either button, something happens.
(Hopefully something good.)

But it's a bit like Othello in that respect -- a minute
to learn, a lifetime to master.

Quite possibly the most ignorant statement in the entire
history of
OS's. You should be
proud.


Translation of what the ****witted top poster posted: "Huh?
I didn't
understand that."

--
Diogenes

Wonderful peice and enjoyed reading it!
TWELVE SIGNS THAT THE LDS CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH

Michael T. Griffith
1996
@All Rights Reserved
Revised and Expanded on 9/4/98

I first became interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints
(also known as the LDS or Mormon Church) when an LDS friend
of mine asked
me, "If the same church that Jesus founded in the New
Testament were on the
earth today, with a living prophet and twelve apostles at
its head, and with
all the same gifts and powers of old, would you want to join
it?" I replied
that of course I would want to join it! He then shared with
me his testimony
that the LDS Church was in fact the Savior's ancient church
restored to the
earth. He explained that this great restoration began when
God the Father
and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820. After
being introduced by
the Father, the Savior explained to young Joseph that he
would be the
instrument through which the true church would be restored
to the earth.
With this restoration came additional scripture, namely, the
Book of Mormon,
the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

A more complete listing of the signs that the Mormon Church
is the Savior's
true church is given in my article "Forty-One Points of the
True Church,"
which is an edited extract from my book ONE LORD, ONE FAITH
(Horizon
Publishers, 1996). Let us now examine twelve signs that the
LDS Church is
Christ's true church.

1. The LDS Church has a prophet and twelve apostles, as did
the Savior's
ancient church. When the Lord established his church in
Israel, he called
twelve apostles. Peter became the earthly head of the church
after Jesus
died. The LDS Church is led by a living prophet, President
Gordon B.
Hinckley, and under him there are twelve apostles, all of
whom have been
called of God by revelation and all of whom possess the same
power and
authority that Christ gave to his twelve apostles. The
apostles of the New
Testament church "had the prophetic spirit, and were
prophets and teachers"
and "as men of prophecy, they pronounced the word God spoke"
(Eberhard
Arnold, THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS, Fourth
Edition, Farmington,
PA: The Plough Publishing Company, 1997, p. 24). In the
early church,
"teachers" were "subordinate . . . to the highest orders of
the prophets and
apostles" (THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS., p. 25).

2. LDS priesthood holders can trace their authority directly
back to Jesus
Christ. When the Lord restored his church in our day, he
sent Peter, James,
and John to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the
Melchizedek
Priesthood, which is the same priesthood that worthy men
held in the ancient
church. Joseph and Oliver then ordained others. Men are
ordained to the
priesthood by the laying on of hands. This divine authority
is held by every
Melchizedek priesthood holder in the Mormon Church today,
each of whom can
trace his authority back to Joseph Smith, and through Joseph
Smith to Peter,
James, and John, and through Peter, James, and John to the
Lord himself. In
the ancient church it was considered crucial for church
leaders to be able
to trace their authority back to the apostles. Irenaeus, a
second-century
early Christian bishop, noted that church leaders possessed
"succession from
the apostles" (THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS [ANF], vol. 1, p.
497)--he even
declared that key doctrinal questions could be settled by
consulting with
those churches "with which the apostles held constant
intercourse" (ANF
1:417). Indeed, Irenaeus regarded every bishop of his day as
"appointed by
the apostles through the successive laying on of hands" (THE
EARLY
CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS, p. 38).

3. The LDS Church is guided by continuous revelation through
its prophet, as
was the New Testament church. Current revelation has always
been vital to
the Lord's true covenant people. The prophet and the
apostles receive
continuous revelation from the Lord, just as did the
Savior's ancient
disciples after his death.

4. The LDS Church understands and teaches the biblical
doctrine that God and
Jesus are separate and distinct divine beings, who
communicate with each
other, who are aware of each other's existence, and who work
in perfect
harmony with each other. God is the supreme member of the
Godhead. Jesus is
subordinate to the Father and does the Father's will in all
things. The Holy
Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. The Godhead is not
an
incomprehensible three-in-one trinity. Rather, it is a
trinity composed of
three separate divine persons, each of whom is a deity in
his own right.
Their unity is one of works, will, and devotion, not one of
substance, mind,
and essence. Mormons reject the traditional teaching that
the Father and the
Son are "two persons yet one God of one undivided
substance." If Jesus and
the Father are separate divine persons who communicate with
each other and
who are aware of each other's existence, as the New
Testament plainly
teaches, then they are two separate deities. Jesus even
referred to the
Father as "my God" (John 20:17; Matthew 27:46). Similarly,
the apostle Paul
referred to the Father as "the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ" and
"the God of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:31;
Ephesians 1:3, 17).

5. The LDS Church affirms that the Savior was literally
resurrected, and
that he lives today. When Jesus was resurrected, his spirit
was reunited
with his body, which was glorified and perfected in the
resurrection
process. He is a real person, a real tangible person, with a
glorified
physical body, just as the New Testament teaches.

6. The LDS Church obeys the law of tithing. The Bible
teaches us that the
true church will practice this divine principle, whereby
members donate a
tenth of their earnings to the church for the building up of
the kingdom of
God on the earth. The Bible promises great blessings in
reward for obedience
to this commandment, and millions of Latter-day Saints can
testify that they
have been greatly blessed as a result of obeying the law of
tithing.

7. The LDS Church possesses the additional scripture
prophesied of in the
Bible. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon was predicted
by ancient
Israelite prophets. The Bible speaks of the coming forth of
an Ephraimite
record, also called "the stick of Joseph." Elsewhere the
Bible refers to
this record as a sealed book that would come forth at a time
when the Lord
would perform a marvelous work and a wonder. The Book of
Mormon is that
record, which came forth as the Lord restored his church in
all its original
splendor and glory. The Book of Mormon is a history of God's
dealings with
peoples in the ancient Americas, specifically, in ancient
Mesoamerica. The
Bible tells us about God's dealings with his covenant people
in the Old
World. The Book of Mormon tells us about his dealings with
his ancient
covenant people in the New World. The Book of Mormon records
that the
resurrected Christ visited the people of ancient Mesoamerica
and that he
established his church among them.

8. The LDS Church is a missionary church, as was the
Savior's ancient
church. It has thousands of missionaries working in
virtually every part of
the world. It has been said that the Mormon Church is the
most
missionary-oriented church on the earth.

9. The LDS Church has a lay local clergy. Local leaders,
i.e., bishops and
stake presidents, etc., are not salaried. They do their
church work on their
own time, and hold normal jobs like everyone else. The
Savior's church
likewise had an unsalaried local clergy. It was only after
the true gospel
began to be removed from the earth that the practice of
paying local leaders
was instituted. But in the New Testament church local
leaders were not
salaried, and as late as A.D. 200 "the idea of fixed
clerical salaries was
considered an outrage . . . in both Rome and Asia" (Robin
Lane Fox, PAGANS
AND CHRISTIANS, New York: Alfred Knopf, 1987, p. 505).

10. The LDS Church teaches that baptism is essential for
salvation. The New
Testament and the writings of early Christian elders and
theologians leave
no doubt that the ancient church taught that baptism was a
requirement for
salvation. Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell observes that in
the ancient
church "it was universally believed that . . . we obtain the
benefits of
Christ's sacrifice by baptism" (SATAN: THE EARLY CHRISTIAN
TRADITION, New
York: Cornell University Press, 1981, p. 100). The ancient
Christian
theologian Tertullian taught that "without baptism,
salvation is attainable
by none" (ANF 3:674).

11. The LDS Church teaches that our thoughts and actions
play a role in our
salvation. The Mormon Church agrees with the Catholic Church
and with the
Orthodox Church that we are not saved strictly by grace
alone through faith,
but that our thoughts and deeds also count toward salvation.
In other words,
belief and confession of faith are not enough. We must do
more. We must
strive to keep the commandments to the best of our ability.
We understand
that no one could be saved if Christ had not atoned for our
sins, but the
Savior also taught that we must live righteous lives to the
best of our
ability in order to return to live in the kingdom of heaven.
Among other
things, he said, "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord,
Lord,' shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my
Father who is in
heaven" (Matthew 7:21, RSV). The Lord also taught that "he
who endures to
the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22, RSV). The New
Testament teaches over
and over again that our actions count and that those who do
not keep the
commandments will not return to live with Heavenly Father.
This same
teaching is literally plastered throughout the writings of
early Christian
bishops, elders, and theologians. For instance,
mid-second-century Christian
theologian Justin Martyr, who is still referred to as one of
the ancient
church's "ablest defenders," said the following:

Anyone who is not found living in accordance with his
[Christ's] teachings
should not be regarded as a Christian even if he confesses
to Christ's
teaching with his lips. For he [Christ] said that only those
shall be saved
who do not just talk, but who also do the corresponding
works [see Matthew
7:21]. (First Apology 16, in THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR
OWN WORDS, p.
104)

12. The LDS Church can answer the three great questions of
life: "Where did
I come from?" "Why am I here?" "Where am I going after
death?" Through the
Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed once again the
divine truth that we
did not suddenly spring into existence at birth, but that we
lived with God
the Father as spirits in a pre-mortal life prior to coming
to earth. Members
of the Lord's true church know that we are on the earth to
gain experience,
to be tried and tested, to live the best lives that we can
possibly live
according to the light and knowledge that we possess, and to
receive
physical bodies. After death we go to the spirit world.
Those who die
without having the opportunity to learn of the gospel will
have that
opportunity in the spirit world, where they will be free to
either accept or
reject the message. Then, at the resurrection, our spirits
are reunited with
our bodies--our bodies will be glorified and perfected. All
mankind will be
raised from the dead, and then judged, and each will receive
according to
his works in relation to the light and knowledge that he
possessed. We will
go to one of three kingdoms, the celestial, the terrestrial,
and the
telestial, while sons of perdition will be cast into outer
darkness.

If you would like to know more about The Church of Jesus
Christ of
Latter-day Saints, contact the unit in your area. You should
be able to find
it in the phone book. You can also write to the church
directly at 50 East
North Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150. If nothing
else, send me an
e-mail and I will refer your name to the missionary
department, who will see
to it that you are contacted.

Michael T. Griffith

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds two Associate of
Applied Science
degrees from the Community College of the Air Force and is
awaiting the
awarding of a Bachelor of Science degree from Excelsior
College in Albany,
New York. He is a two-time graduate of the Defense Language
Institute in
Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical
Training School in
San Angelo, Texas. He is the author of four books on
Mormonism and ancient
texts. He has completed advanced Hebrew programs at Haifa
University in
Israel and at the Spiro Institute in London, England. While
at BYU he was a
research assistant for Dr. Ross T. Christensen of the
Society for Early
Historic Archaeology. His published works on gospel subjects
include
Refuting the Critics (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers,
1992) and A Ready
Reply: Answering Challenging Questions About the Gospel
(Horizon Publishers,
1994), and One Lord, One Faith: Writings of the Early
Christian Fathers as
Evidences of the Restoration (Horizon Publishers, 1996).

*** One Lord, One Faith can be purchased or ordered from
your local LDS
bookstore, or you can order it directly from Horizon
Publishers via their
toll-free number 1-800-453-0812. One Lord, One Faith
documents dozens of
parallels between Mormonism and ancient Christianity and is
an excellent
book for investigators and members alike. It is also an
excellent companion
book to the famous talk tape "The 17 Points of the True
Church." If you'd
like to order the book online, click here.

Back to LDS Information Web Page



--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Wonderful peice and enjoyed reading it!
TWELVE SIGNS THAT THE LDS CHURCH IS THE TRUE CHURCH

Michael T. Griffith
1996
@All Rights Reserved
Revised and Expanded on 9/4/98

I first became interested in The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints
(also known as the LDS or Mormon Church) when an LDS friend
of mine asked
me, "If the same church that Jesus founded in the New
Testament were on the
earth today, with a living prophet and twelve apostles at
its head, and with
all the same gifts and powers of old, would you want to join
it?" I replied
that of course I would want to join it! He then shared with
me his testimony
that the LDS Church was in fact the Savior's ancient church
restored to the
earth. He explained that this great restoration began when
God the Father
and Jesus Christ appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820. After
being introduced by
the Father, the Savior explained to young Joseph that he
would be the
instrument through which the true church would be restored
to the earth.
With this restoration came additional scripture, namely, the
Book of Mormon,
the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.

A more complete listing of the signs that the Mormon Church
is the Savior's
true church is given in my article "Forty-One Points of the
True Church,"
which is an edited extract from my book ONE LORD, ONE FAITH
(Horizon
Publishers, 1996). Let us now examine twelve signs that the
LDS Church is
Christ's true church.

1. The LDS Church has a prophet and twelve apostles, as did
the Savior's
ancient church. When the Lord established his church in
Israel, he called
twelve apostles. Peter became the earthly head of the church
after Jesus
died. The LDS Church is led by a living prophet, President
Gordon B.
Hinckley, and under him there are twelve apostles, all of
whom have been
called of God by revelation and all of whom possess the same
power and
authority that Christ gave to his twelve apostles. The
apostles of the New
Testament church "had the prophetic spirit, and were
prophets and teachers"
and "as men of prophecy, they pronounced the word God spoke"
(Eberhard
Arnold, THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS, Fourth
Edition, Farmington,
PA: The Plough Publishing Company, 1997, p. 24). In the
early church,
"teachers" were "subordinate . . . to the highest orders of
the prophets and
apostles" (THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS., p. 25).

2. LDS priesthood holders can trace their authority directly
back to Jesus
Christ. When the Lord restored his church in our day, he
sent Peter, James,
and John to ordain Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to the
Melchizedek
Priesthood, which is the same priesthood that worthy men
held in the ancient
church. Joseph and Oliver then ordained others. Men are
ordained to the
priesthood by the laying on of hands. This divine authority
is held by every
Melchizedek priesthood holder in the Mormon Church today,
each of whom can
trace his authority back to Joseph Smith, and through Joseph
Smith to Peter,
James, and John, and through Peter, James, and John to the
Lord himself. In
the ancient church it was considered crucial for church
leaders to be able
to trace their authority back to the apostles. Irenaeus, a
second-century
early Christian bishop, noted that church leaders possessed
"succession from
the apostles" (THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS [ANF], vol. 1, p.
497)--he even
declared that key doctrinal questions could be settled by
consulting with
those churches "with which the apostles held constant
intercourse" (ANF
1:417). Indeed, Irenaeus regarded every bishop of his day as
"appointed by
the apostles through the successive laying on of hands" (THE
EARLY
CHRISTIANS IN THEIR OWN WORDS, p. 38).

3. The LDS Church is guided by continuous revelation through
its prophet, as
was the New Testament church. Current revelation has always
been vital to
the Lord's true covenant people. The prophet and the
apostles receive
continuous revelation from the Lord, just as did the
Savior's ancient
disciples after his death.

4. The LDS Church understands and teaches the biblical
doctrine that God and
Jesus are separate and distinct divine beings, who
communicate with each
other, who are aware of each other's existence, and who work
in perfect
harmony with each other. God is the supreme member of the
Godhead. Jesus is
subordinate to the Father and does the Father's will in all
things. The Holy
Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. The Godhead is not
an
incomprehensible three-in-one trinity. Rather, it is a
trinity composed of
three separate divine persons, each of whom is a deity in
his own right.
Their unity is one of works, will, and devotion, not one of
substance, mind,
and essence. Mormons reject the traditional teaching that
the Father and the
Son are "two persons yet one God of one undivided
substance." If Jesus and
the Father are separate divine persons who communicate with
each other and
who are aware of each other's existence, as the New
Testament plainly
teaches, then they are two separate deities. Jesus even
referred to the
Father as "my God" (John 20:17; Matthew 27:46). Similarly,
the apostle Paul
referred to the Father as "the God and Father of our Lord
Jesus Christ" and
"the God of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:31;
Ephesians 1:3, 17).

5. The LDS Church affirms that the Savior was literally
resurrected, and
that he lives today. When Jesus was resurrected, his spirit
was reunited
with his body, which was glorified and perfected in the
resurrection
process. He is a real person, a real tangible person, with a
glorified
physical body, just as the New Testament teaches.

6. The LDS Church obeys the law of tithing. The Bible
teaches us that the
true church will practice this divine principle, whereby
members donate a
tenth of their earnings to the church for the building up of
the kingdom of
God on the earth. The Bible promises great blessings in
reward for obedience
to this commandment, and millions of Latter-day Saints can
testify that they
have been greatly blessed as a result of obeying the law of
tithing.

7. The LDS Church possesses the additional scripture
prophesied of in the
Bible. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon was predicted
by ancient
Israelite prophets. The Bible speaks of the coming forth of
an Ephraimite
record, also called "the stick of Joseph." Elsewhere the
Bible refers to
this record as a sealed book that would come forth at a time
when the Lord
would perform a marvelous work and a wonder. The Book of
Mormon is that
record, which came forth as the Lord restored his church in
all its original
splendor and glory. The Book of Mormon is a history of God's
dealings with
peoples in the ancient Americas, specifically, in ancient
Mesoamerica. The
Bible tells us about God's dealings with his covenant people
in the Old
World. The Book of Mormon tells us about his dealings with
his ancient
covenant people in the New World. The Book of Mormon records
that the
resurrected Christ visited the people of ancient Mesoamerica
and that he
established his church among them.

8. The LDS Church is a missionary church, as was the
Savior's ancient
church. It has thousands of missionaries working in
virtually every part of
the world. It has been said that the Mormon Church is the
most
missionary-oriented church on the earth.

9. The LDS Church has a lay local clergy. Local leaders,
i.e., bishops and
stake presidents, etc., are not salaried. They do their
church work on their
own time, and hold normal jobs like everyone else. The
Savior's church
likewise had an unsalaried local clergy. It was only after
the true gospel
began to be removed from the earth that the practice of
paying local leaders
was instituted. But in the New Testament church local
leaders were not
salaried, and as late as A.D. 200 "the idea of fixed
clerical salaries was
considered an outrage . . . in both Rome and Asia" (Robin
Lane Fox, PAGANS
AND CHRISTIANS, New York: Alfred Knopf, 1987, p. 505).

10. The LDS Church teaches that baptism is essential for
salvation. The New
Testament and the writings of early Christian elders and
theologians leave
no doubt that the ancient church taught that baptism was a
requirement for
salvation. Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell observes that in
the ancient
church "it was universally believed that . . . we obtain the
benefits of
Christ's sacrifice by baptism" (SATAN: THE EARLY CHRISTIAN
TRADITION, New
York: Cornell University Press, 1981, p. 100). The ancient
Christian
theologian Tertullian taught that "without baptism,
salvation is attainable
by none" (ANF 3:674).

11. The LDS Church teaches that our thoughts and actions
play a role in our
salvation. The Mormon Church agrees with the Catholic Church
and with the
Orthodox Church that we are not saved strictly by grace
alone through faith,
but that our thoughts and deeds also count toward salvation.
In other words,
belief and confession of faith are not enough. We must do
more. We must
strive to keep the commandments to the best of our ability.
We understand
that no one could be saved if Christ had not atoned for our
sins, but the
Savior also taught that we must live righteous lives to the
best of our
ability in order to return to live in the kingdom of heaven.
Among other
things, he said, "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord,
Lord,' shall enter
into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my
Father who is in
heaven" (Matthew 7:21, RSV). The Lord also taught that "he
who endures to
the end will be saved" (Matthew 10:22, RSV). The New
Testament teaches over
and over again that our actions count and that those who do
not keep the
commandments will not return to live with Heavenly Father.
This same
teaching is literally plastered throughout the writings of
early Christian
bishops, elders, and theologians. For instance,
mid-second-century Christian
theologian Justin Martyr, who is still referred to as one of
the ancient
church's "ablest defenders," said the following:

Anyone who is not found living in accordance with his
[Christ's] teachings
should not be regarded as a Christian even if he confesses
to Christ's
teaching with his lips. For he [Christ] said that only those
shall be saved
who do not just talk, but who also do the corresponding
works [see Matthew
7:21]. (First Apology 16, in THE EARLY CHRISTIANS IN THEIR
OWN WORDS, p.
104)

12. The LDS Church can answer the three great questions of
life: "Where did
I come from?" "Why am I here?" "Where am I going after
death?" Through the
Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord revealed once again the
divine truth that we
did not suddenly spring into existence at birth, but that we
lived with God
the Father as spirits in a pre-mortal life prior to coming
to earth. Members
of the Lord's true church know that we are on the earth to
gain experience,
to be tried and tested, to live the best lives that we can
possibly live
according to the light and knowledge that we possess, and to
receive
physical bodies. After death we go to the spirit world.
Those who die
without having the opportunity to learn of the gospel will
have that
opportunity in the spirit world, where they will be free to
either accept or
reject the message. Then, at the resurrection, our spirits
are reunited with
our bodies--our bodies will be glorified and perfected. All
mankind will be
raised from the dead, and then judged, and each will receive
according to
his works in relation to the light and knowledge that he
possessed. We will
go to one of three kingdoms, the celestial, the terrestrial,
and the
telestial, while sons of perdition will be cast into outer
darkness.

If you would like to know more about The Church of Jesus
Christ of
Latter-day Saints, contact the unit in your area. You should
be able to find
it in the phone book. You can also write to the church
directly at 50 East
North Temple Street, Salt Lake City, Utah 84150. If nothing
else, send me an
e-mail and I will refer your name to the missionary
department, who will see
to it that you are contacted.

Michael T. Griffith

ABOUT THE AUTHOR: Michael T. Griffith holds two Associate of
Applied Science
degrees from the Community College of the Air Force and is
awaiting the
awarding of a Bachelor of Science degree from Excelsior
College in Albany,
New York. He is a two-time graduate of the Defense Language
Institute in
Monterey, California, and of the U.S. Air Force Technical
Training School in
San Angelo, Texas. He is the author of four books on
Mormonism and ancient
texts. He has completed advanced Hebrew programs at Haifa
University in
Israel and at the Spiro Institute in London, England. While
at BYU he was a
research assistant for Dr. Ross T. Christensen of the
Society for Early
Historic Archaeology. His published works on gospel subjects
include
Refuting the Critics (Bountiful, Utah: Horizon Publishers,
1992) and A Ready
Reply: Answering Challenging Questions About the Gospel
(Horizon Publishers,
1994), and One Lord, One Faith: Writings of the Early
Christian Fathers as
Evidences of the Restoration (Horizon Publishers, 1996).

*** One Lord, One Faith can be purchased or ordered from
your local LDS
bookstore, or you can order it directly from Horizon
Publishers via their
toll-free number 1-800-453-0812. One Lord, One Faith
documents dozens of
parallels between Mormonism and ancient Christianity and is
an excellent
book for investigators and members alike. It is also an
excellent companion
book to the famous talk tape "The 17 Points of the True
Church." If you'd
like to order the book online, click here.

Back to LDS Information Web Page



--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Halcitron"
Subject: Be careful what you ask God for
Date: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:58 PM

Be careful what you ask God for


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3044178.stm


Lightning hits preacher after call to God


The service electrified the congregation

A congregation in the United States was left stunned when
lightning struck a
church moments after a visiting preacher asked God for a
sign.
Church members in the town of Forest in the state of Ohio
said the preacher had
been emphasising the importance of penance when, in the
course of his prayers,
he called on the heavens above.

The lightning struck the steeple, then hit the preacher
himself when it
travelled through electrical wiring to his microphone.

Local authorities said he was not injured.

"It was awesome, just awesome," said church member Ronnie
Cheney, who was among
the congregation when the strike hit, told the Findlay
Courier newspaper.



caveat lector

Halcitron misc.survivalism
Check your six and know when to duck.
NRA Member since 2002
The Law of the Land, is the weapon in your hand.

Smith & Wesson starts where the Bill of Rights stop.


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Halcitron"
Subject: Be careful what you ask God for
Date: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:58 PM

Be careful what you ask God for


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3044178.stm


Lightning hits preacher after call to God


The service electrified the congregation

A congregation in the United States was left stunned when
lightning struck a
church moments after a visiting preacher asked God for a
sign.
Church members in the town of Forest in the state of Ohio
said the preacher had
been emphasising the importance of penance when, in the
course of his prayers,
he called on the heavens above.

The lightning struck the steeple, then hit the preacher
himself when it
travelled through electrical wiring to his microphone.

Local authorities said he was not injured.

"It was awesome, just awesome," said church member Ronnie
Cheney, who was among
the congregation when the strike hit, told the Findlay
Courier newspaper.



caveat lector

Halcitron misc.survivalism
Check your six and know when to duck.
NRA Member since 2002
The Law of the Land, is the weapon in your hand.

Smith & Wesson starts where the Bill of Rights stop.


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Forrest"
To: "1.Forrest"
Subject: Christmas Song Game/scott
Date: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:21 PM

I think we did this last year so let's try it again.
The letters form an acronym of a Christmas song. Name the
song, win my gratitude grin.

Some are easy, others aren't.

1. TCS (CROAOF)
2. HYMLC
3. IBHFC
4. FFAJP
5. AIWFCIMTFT
6. ISMKSC
7. SN
8. OHN
9. FTS
10. AF (OCAYF)
11. IDOWC
12. TTDOC
13. HCSC
14. WW
15. SB
16. JB
17. OLTOB
18. WTK
19. TLDB
20. LHAREB
21. ATTN
22. BHC
23. GB
24. GKW
25. CC
26. HWCAW
27. JJOMD
28. MHAB
29. JOSN
30. COCE

That's enough for now!

Scott


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Forrest"
To: "1.Forrest"
Subject: Christmas Song Game/scott
Date: Saturday, December 13, 2003 1:21 PM

I think we did this last year so let's try it again.
The letters form an acronym of a Christmas song. Name the
song, win my gratitude grin.

Some are easy, others aren't.

1. TCS (CROAOF)
2. HYMLC
3. IBHFC
4. FFAJP
5. AIWFCIMTFT
6. ISMKSC
7. SN
8. OHN
9. FTS
10. AF (OCAYF)
11. IDOWC
12. TTDOC
13. HCSC
14. WW
15. SB
16. JB
17. OLTOB
18. WTK
19. TLDB
20. LHAREB
21. ATTN
22. BHC
23. GB
24. GKW
25. CC
26. HWCAW
27. JJOMD
28. MHAB
29. JOSN
30. COCE

That's enough for now!

Scott


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Discovering the Holy Ghost
Special Issue: New Testament
Discovering the Holy Ghost
By David H. Yarn, Jr.
David H. Yarn Jr., Discovering the Holy Ghost, Ensign, Sept.
1975,

John the Baptist, who prepared the way for the coming of the
Lord, contrasted his own work with that of the Lord when he
said: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but
he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am
not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy
Ghost, and with fire." (Matt. 3:11)
In the later Judean ministry, when Jesus taught at the
temple in Jerusalem at the Feast of the Tabernacles, he
declared, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath
said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(John 7:38)
And John the Beloved explained: "But this spake he of the
Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for
the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not
yet glorified." (John 7:39)
About six months later, when the Lord taught the apostles
after the Last Supper, he said:
"These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with
you.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said
unto you." (John 14:25-26 )
Then Jesus added other things the Comforter would do: "he
shall testify of me" (John 15:26 ); "he will guide you into
all truth and he will shew you things to come." (John
16:13)
Three days later, on the evening of the day Jesus was
resurrected, he appeared to the apostles and told them:
"As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he
had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:21-22)
After the resurrection, then, the risen Christ "shewed
himself alive" [to his apostles] by many infallible proofs,
being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things
pertaining to the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3) He told them,
"ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days
hence" (Acts 1:5), and "ye shall receive power, after that
the Holy Ghost is come upon you." (Acts 1:8)

Jesus had been crucified and resurrected at the time of the
Passover, was with his disciples 40 days after the
resurrection, and the day of Pentecost came 50 days after
the Passover. So it was only a few days after Christ’s
ascension into heaven that the Holy Ghost came upon the
apostles with great power:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all
with one accord in one place.
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing
mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were
sitting.
"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of
fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled
with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:1-4) That was the
magnificent introductory manifestation of the gift of the
Holy Ghost upon the ancient apostles to give them power from
on high to assume the responsibility for that dispensation
of the gospel. But earlier prophets had also enjoyed the
power of the Holy Ghost, for the Lord has revealed in our
day that before he came, holy prophets spake as they were
inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost as well as those who
should come after. (D&C 20:26-27)

However, the gift of the Holy Ghost was not for the prophets
and apostles alone. As a result of a great sermon Peter gave
on that day of Pentecost the multitude "were pricked in
their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the
apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God
shall call." (Acts 2:37-39)
About 3,000 souls were baptized as a result.

From that time the apostles went forth endowed with power,
and the Holy Ghost was an active force operating in their
lives. They spoke by the Holy Ghost (see Acts 4:8); they
preached by that gift (see 1 Pet. 1:12) and taught by it
(see Acts 10:45). They testified of Christ by the Holy Ghost
(see 1 Cor. 12:3), they discerned situations through it (see
Acts 5:3), and rebuked evil forces by the power of the
Spirit (see Acts 13:9). Revelation and scripture were given
to them by the Holy Ghost (see Acts 10:19; 2 Pet. 1:12), and
men were called to offices in the church by the gift of the
Holy Ghost. These were only some of the uses of that
glorious gift in the New Testament church.
Principally, all of those uses existed so that three things
might be accomplished: first, that the Holy Ghost might bear
witness to those taught the gospel by the Lord’s servants
(see Heb. 10:15; 1 Thes. 1:5); second, that people might be
converted to the gospel (see Acts 10:44-48); and third, that
after repentance and baptism they might have hands laid upon
their heads and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for their
own blessing (see Acts 8:17). There was a great variety of
gifts of the Spirit that a righteous person might enjoy
personally after he received the gospel, or he might share
the benefits of the gifts others had. (See 1 Cor.12)
Another way of observing the pervasive influence of the Holy
Ghost in the lives of men and women who strive to associate
themselves with the gospel is illustrated in these brief
summary teachings from the church established by the Savior
in the meridian of time:
(1) One can learn that Jesus is the Christ only by the Holy
Ghost. The Corinthians were taught, "no man can say that
Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Cor. 12:3)
(2) Acceptance of Christ as the Redeemer causes one to love
God "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the
Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Rom. 5:5)
(3) Paul recognized that a witness of Christ and the love of
God are the sources of hope, both in this life and in the
eternities, and said to the Romans, "Now the God of hope
fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may
abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." (Rom.
15:13)
(4) The product or fruit of these things is joy, even in
this life, for as we are told, "the disciples were filled
with joy, and with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 13:52)
(5) The Apostle Paul defined even the kingdom of God in
terms of the Holy Ghost, for he said, "For the kingdom of
God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and
joy in the Holy Ghost." (Rom. 14:17)
A person might ask himself, "Why should I have faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ, repent of my sins, be baptized, and
receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy
Ghost?"
Carefully and prayerfully, study this answer from the words
of the Lord: "all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can
in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing
can dwell there, or dwell in his presence.
"Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these
things freely unto your children, saying:
"That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall
bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world
by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and
so become of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born
again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the
Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine
Only Begotten, that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and
enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal
life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye
are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
"Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of
heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal
glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all
things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth
all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy,
truth, justice, and judgment.
"And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of
salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only
Begotten." (Moses 6:57-62)
The Lord tells us here that if we receive the principles and
ordinances of the gospel in the way we should, even in this
mortal life we can enjoy the presence of the Comforter, the
record of heaven, and the peaceable things of immortal
glory, for they are given to abide in us.
Perhaps we should recall that when we had hands laid upon
our heads to be confirmed members of the Church and to
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the one officiating by
the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood called us by
name and at the appropriate time said, "Receive the Holy
Ghost." Those words were addressed to us as a charge or
responsibility to so conduct our lives and open our hearts
to righteousness that we might be worthy to have the Holy
Ghost come unto us. From that moment we had the right to
receive the Holy Ghost, but he comes to us only as we
manifest to God our desire and readiness to receive him in
our lives.
The Lord said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if
any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to
him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) No
doubt the Lord was also describing the influence of the Holy
Ghost.
How different is Satan and his unholy influence! He takes
advantage of every opportunity to force his way into any and
every nook and cranny of one’s thoughts and life. In
contrast, the Lord is a "gentleman" in the most exalted
sense of that word. He does not force his way into our
lives. As a gentleman he stands at the door and knocks. He
wants us to invite him in. If we will not get up and remove
the latch and open the door, the very least we can do is ask
him to enter. Needless to say, we should be down on our
knees, pouring out our hearts and begging him to come in to
us.
No doubt there are some, like the ancient Ephesians, who,
when Paul asked "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye
believed?" responded "We have not so much as heard whether
there be any Holy Ghost." (Acts 19:2) Undoubtedly there are
many who have felt the precious influence of the Holy Ghost
in their lives, but for whom it has been an infrequent, even
rare occurrence. Even though it is a most sacred and
priceless thing, surely it is the Lord’s will that we have
that holy influence in our lives continuously rather than
rarely. Even our sacrament prayers, which ordinarily are
heard twice each Sunday, assure us that Heavenly Father
wants us to have the influence of the Holy Ghost in our
lives not only continually but continuously; that is, not
just again and again, but without interruption. In the
blessing on the bread we hear: "that they may eat in
remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O
God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon
them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep
his commandments which he has given them; that they may
always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (D&C 20:77;
italics added.)
When the Lord explained to Nicodemus that being born of the
water and of the Spirit meant being baptized in water and
receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, he compared the coming
of the Spirit to the wind:
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the
Spirit." (John 3:8)
We might say it this way: when one feels the wind blow
across his face he knows it is present, he feels its
influence; yet he doesn’t see the wind, doesn’t know "whence
it cometh, and whither it goeth." With at least comparable
certainty, when the Spirit rests upon one, he knows it is
present, and he feels its influence.
There always seem to be those who are like the multitude who
stoned Stephen to death. As he addressed them he said, "Ye
stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do
ye." (Acts 7:51) No doubt there are others who, like Simon
the sorcerer, would like to have the power of the Holy Ghost
if they could buy it. (See Acts 8:9-24) And surely there are
those who would earnestly like to have that holy influence
in their lives, but for some reason either haven’t had it or
haven’t recognized it. Perhaps the key to their need lies in
these words of Mormon to his son Moroni:
"And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism
cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and
the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
"And the remission of sins bringeth meekness and lowliness
of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart
cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter
filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by
diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all
the saints shall dwell with God." (Moro. 8:25-26)
To make these things possible, the Lord suffered
incomparably for us. In his own witness in this day he said:
"Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of
all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore,
and to suffer both body and spirit." (D&C19:18) That unique
suffering he experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane, prior
to the awful agony of the trials and the crucifixion.
Even earlier, when he beheld Jerusalem, knowing the things
the city would have to suffer because of her sins, his great
compassion caused him to weep for her. (See Luke 19:41-48)
The Lord wept over the sins of ancient Israel and suffered
for the sins of all mankind, including yours and mine. Yet,
ask yourself these questions: Have I wept over my own sins?
Have I pled for forgiveness? If I have been baptized and had
hands laid upon my head to receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost, am I keeping the commandments, and do I constantly
recognize my dependence upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and pour
out my heart in loving gratitude for his mercy? If I have
done these things my life will at least begin to reflect
that meekness and lowliness of heart that prepare me to
enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost in my life. I will
recognize that influence even as I recognize the wind.
Of the "spirit of revelation," one of the gifts of the Holy
Ghost, the Lord has said in our day, "Yea, behold, I will
tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost,
which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your
heart." (D&C 8:2) However, said he, "Remember that without
faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith." (D&C
8:10) Not only should we seek the Lord’s guidance in all
things, but we should realize that he expects us to use the
resources with which we are blessed to find solutions to our
problems, and then, having done so, seek his confirmation or
correction. He said, "Behold, I say unto you, that you must
study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be
right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall
burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but
you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to
forget the thing which is wrong." (D&C 9:8-9)
In addition to any particular gift, there are at least five
basic manifestations we can discern as we witness the Holy
Ghost in our lives: a positive hope of eternal life because
of the Lord’s atoning sacrifice; an assurance of the truth
of the gospel; his power in righteousness; a peace
transcending temporal things; and, in varying degree, the
joy that belongs to the eternal.
Knowing these things, or learning them, we should do
everything within our power in righteousness to help our
children come to know them also, for to be baptized and
confirmed and then to routinely attend our meetings and
perfunctorily do our duties without enjoying the richness of
the Holy Ghost in our lives is like buying the tickets,
dressing up for the event, going to the theater, and then
sitting in the foyer throughout the performance. The Holy
Ghost will be our guide if we will let him. In the words of
the Lord, he will be a "river of living water" flowing in us
always. (See John 7:38-39) If we will do what the Lord has
invited us to do, including having virtue garnish our
thoughts unceasingly, "The Holy Ghost shall be [our]
constant companion." (D&C 121:46)
Gospel topic: Holy Ghost
[illustrations] Illustrations by Gary Smith


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Discovering the Holy Ghost
Special Issue: New Testament
Discovering the Holy Ghost
By David H. Yarn, Jr.
David H. Yarn Jr., Discovering the Holy Ghost, Ensign, Sept.
1975,

John the Baptist, who prepared the way for the coming of the
Lord, contrasted his own work with that of the Lord when he
said: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but
he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am
not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy
Ghost, and with fire." (Matt. 3:11)
In the later Judean ministry, when Jesus taught at the
temple in Jerusalem at the Feast of the Tabernacles, he
declared, "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath
said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
(John 7:38)
And John the Beloved explained: "But this spake he of the
Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for
the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not
yet glorified." (John 7:39)
About six months later, when the Lord taught the apostles
after the Last Supper, he said:
"These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with
you.
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father
will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and
bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said
unto you." (John 14:25-26 )
Then Jesus added other things the Comforter would do: "he
shall testify of me" (John 15:26 ); "he will guide you into
all truth and he will shew you things to come." (John
16:13)
Three days later, on the evening of the day Jesus was
resurrected, he appeared to the apostles and told them:
"As my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he
had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Ghost." (John 20:21-22)
After the resurrection, then, the risen Christ "shewed
himself alive" [to his apostles] by many infallible proofs,
being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things
pertaining to the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3) He told them,
"ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days
hence" (Acts 1:5), and "ye shall receive power, after that
the Holy Ghost is come upon you." (Acts 1:8)

Jesus had been crucified and resurrected at the time of the
Passover, was with his disciples 40 days after the
resurrection, and the day of Pentecost came 50 days after
the Passover. So it was only a few days after Christ’s
ascension into heaven that the Holy Ghost came upon the
apostles with great power:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all
with one accord in one place.
"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing
mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were
sitting.
"And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of
fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled
with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues,
as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:1-4) That was the
magnificent introductory manifestation of the gift of the
Holy Ghost upon the ancient apostles to give them power from
on high to assume the responsibility for that dispensation
of the gospel. But earlier prophets had also enjoyed the
power of the Holy Ghost, for the Lord has revealed in our
day that before he came, holy prophets spake as they were
inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost as well as those who
should come after. (D&C 20:26-27)

However, the gift of the Holy Ghost was not for the prophets
and apostles alone. As a result of a great sermon Peter gave
on that day of Pentecost the multitude "were pricked in
their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the
apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to
all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God
shall call." (Acts 2:37-39)
About 3,000 souls were baptized as a result.

From that time the apostles went forth endowed with power,
and the Holy Ghost was an active force operating in their
lives. They spoke by the Holy Ghost (see Acts 4:8); they
preached by that gift (see 1 Pet. 1:12) and taught by it
(see Acts 10:45). They testified of Christ by the Holy Ghost
(see 1 Cor. 12:3), they discerned situations through it (see
Acts 5:3), and rebuked evil forces by the power of the
Spirit (see Acts 13:9). Revelation and scripture were given
to them by the Holy Ghost (see Acts 10:19; 2 Pet. 1:12), and
men were called to offices in the church by the gift of the
Holy Ghost. These were only some of the uses of that
glorious gift in the New Testament church.
Principally, all of those uses existed so that three things
might be accomplished: first, that the Holy Ghost might bear
witness to those taught the gospel by the Lord’s servants
(see Heb. 10:15; 1 Thes. 1:5); second, that people might be
converted to the gospel (see Acts 10:44-48); and third, that
after repentance and baptism they might have hands laid upon
their heads and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost for their
own blessing (see Acts 8:17). There was a great variety of
gifts of the Spirit that a righteous person might enjoy
personally after he received the gospel, or he might share
the benefits of the gifts others had. (See 1 Cor.12)
Another way of observing the pervasive influence of the Holy
Ghost in the lives of men and women who strive to associate
themselves with the gospel is illustrated in these brief
summary teachings from the church established by the Savior
in the meridian of time:
(1) One can learn that Jesus is the Christ only by the Holy
Ghost. The Corinthians were taught, "no man can say that
Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Cor. 12:3)
(2) Acceptance of Christ as the Redeemer causes one to love
God "the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the
Holy Ghost which is given unto us." (Rom. 5:5)
(3) Paul recognized that a witness of Christ and the love of
God are the sources of hope, both in this life and in the
eternities, and said to the Romans, "Now the God of hope
fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may
abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost." (Rom.
15:13)
(4) The product or fruit of these things is joy, even in
this life, for as we are told, "the disciples were filled
with joy, and with the Holy Ghost." (Acts 13:52)
(5) The Apostle Paul defined even the kingdom of God in
terms of the Holy Ghost, for he said, "For the kingdom of
God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and
joy in the Holy Ghost." (Rom. 14:17)
A person might ask himself, "Why should I have faith in the
Lord Jesus Christ, repent of my sins, be baptized, and
receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy
Ghost?"
Carefully and prayerfully, study this answer from the words
of the Lord: "all men, everywhere, must repent, or they can
in nowise inherit the kingdom of God, for no unclean thing
can dwell there, or dwell in his presence.
"Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these
things freely unto your children, saying:
"That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall
bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world
by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and
so become of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born
again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the
Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine
Only Begotten, that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and
enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal
life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
"For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye
are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
"Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of
heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal
glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all
things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth
all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy,
truth, justice, and judgment.
"And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of
salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only
Begotten." (Moses 6:57-62)
The Lord tells us here that if we receive the principles and
ordinances of the gospel in the way we should, even in this
mortal life we can enjoy the presence of the Comforter, the
record of heaven, and the peaceable things of immortal
glory, for they are given to abide in us.
Perhaps we should recall that when we had hands laid upon
our heads to be confirmed members of the Church and to
receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, the one officiating by
the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood called us by
name and at the appropriate time said, "Receive the Holy
Ghost." Those words were addressed to us as a charge or
responsibility to so conduct our lives and open our hearts
to righteousness that we might be worthy to have the Holy
Ghost come unto us. From that moment we had the right to
receive the Holy Ghost, but he comes to us only as we
manifest to God our desire and readiness to receive him in
our lives.
The Lord said, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if
any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to
him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) No
doubt the Lord was also describing the influence of the Holy
Ghost.
How different is Satan and his unholy influence! He takes
advantage of every opportunity to force his way into any and
every nook and cranny of one’s thoughts and life. In
contrast, the Lord is a "gentleman" in the most exalted
sense of that word. He does not force his way into our
lives. As a gentleman he stands at the door and knocks. He
wants us to invite him in. If we will not get up and remove
the latch and open the door, the very least we can do is ask
him to enter. Needless to say, we should be down on our
knees, pouring out our hearts and begging him to come in to
us.
No doubt there are some, like the ancient Ephesians, who,
when Paul asked "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye
believed?" responded "We have not so much as heard whether
there be any Holy Ghost." (Acts 19:2) Undoubtedly there are
many who have felt the precious influence of the Holy Ghost
in their lives, but for whom it has been an infrequent, even
rare occurrence. Even though it is a most sacred and
priceless thing, surely it is the Lord’s will that we have
that holy influence in our lives continuously rather than
rarely. Even our sacrament prayers, which ordinarily are
heard twice each Sunday, assure us that Heavenly Father
wants us to have the influence of the Holy Ghost in our
lives not only continually but continuously; that is, not
just again and again, but without interruption. In the
blessing on the bread we hear: "that they may eat in
remembrance of the body of thy Son, and witness unto thee, O
God, the Eternal Father, that they are willing to take upon
them the name of thy Son, and always remember him and keep
his commandments which he has given them; that they may
always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen." (D&C 20:77;
italics added.)
When the Lord explained to Nicodemus that being born of the
water and of the Spirit meant being baptized in water and
receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, he compared the coming
of the Spirit to the wind:
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the
sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and
whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the
Spirit." (John 3:8)
We might say it this way: when one feels the wind blow
across his face he knows it is present, he feels its
influence; yet he doesn’t see the wind, doesn’t know "whence
it cometh, and whither it goeth." With at least comparable
certainty, when the Spirit rests upon one, he knows it is
present, and he feels its influence.
There always seem to be those who are like the multitude who
stoned Stephen to death. As he addressed them he said, "Ye
stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do
always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do
ye." (Acts 7:51) No doubt there are others who, like Simon
the sorcerer, would like to have the power of the Holy Ghost
if they could buy it. (See Acts 8:9-24) And surely there are
those who would earnestly like to have that holy influence
in their lives, but for some reason either haven’t had it or
haven’t recognized it. Perhaps the key to their need lies in
these words of Mormon to his son Moroni:
"And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism
cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and
the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
"And the remission of sins bringeth meekness and lowliness
of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart
cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter
filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by
diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all
the saints shall dwell with God." (Moro. 8:25-26)
To make these things possible, the Lord suffered
incomparably for us. In his own witness in this day he said:
"Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of
all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore,
and to suffer both body and spirit." (D&C19:18) That unique
suffering he experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane, prior
to the awful agony of the trials and the crucifixion.
Even earlier, when he beheld Jerusalem, knowing the things
the city would have to suffer because of her sins, his great
compassion caused him to weep for her. (See Luke 19:41-48)
The Lord wept over the sins of ancient Israel and suffered
for the sins of all mankind, including yours and mine. Yet,
ask yourself these questions: Have I wept over my own sins?
Have I pled for forgiveness? If I have been baptized and had
hands laid upon my head to receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost, am I keeping the commandments, and do I constantly
recognize my dependence upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and pour
out my heart in loving gratitude for his mercy? If I have
done these things my life will at least begin to reflect
that meekness and lowliness of heart that prepare me to
enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost in my life. I will
recognize that influence even as I recognize the wind.
Of the "spirit of revelation," one of the gifts of the Holy
Ghost, the Lord has said in our day, "Yea, behold, I will
tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost,
which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your
heart." (D&C 8:2) However, said he, "Remember that without
faith you can do nothing; therefore ask in faith." (D&C
8:10) Not only should we seek the Lord’s guidance in all
things, but we should realize that he expects us to use the
resources with which we are blessed to find solutions to our
problems, and then, having done so, seek his confirmation or
correction. He said, "Behold, I say unto you, that you must
study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be
right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall
burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but
you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to
forget the thing which is wrong." (D&C 9:8-9)
In addition to any particular gift, there are at least five
basic manifestations we can discern as we witness the Holy
Ghost in our lives: a positive hope of eternal life because
of the Lord’s atoning sacrifice; an assurance of the truth
of the gospel; his power in righteousness; a peace
transcending temporal things; and, in varying degree, the
joy that belongs to the eternal.
Knowing these things, or learning them, we should do
everything within our power in righteousness to help our
children come to know them also, for to be baptized and
confirmed and then to routinely attend our meetings and
perfunctorily do our duties without enjoying the richness of
the Holy Ghost in our lives is like buying the tickets,
dressing up for the event, going to the theater, and then
sitting in the foyer throughout the performance. The Holy
Ghost will be our guide if we will let him. In the words of
the Lord, he will be a "river of living water" flowing in us
always. (See John 7:38-39) If we will do what the Lord has
invited us to do, including having virtue garnish our
thoughts unceasingly, "The Holy Ghost shall be [our]
constant companion." (D&C 121:46)
Gospel topic: Holy Ghost
[illustrations] Illustrations by Gary Smith


--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Mark and Bev Tindall"
Subject: BAPTISM BY THE BEAST
Date: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:06 PM

"Dario Western" wrote:

I attended a Pentecostal church in 1991 in which they
claimed to remove
spirits of 'witchcraft, homosexuality and deceit' from me.
.....
It was pretty scary stuff, and I remember being held down
on the floor and
writhing about whilst the pastor kept telling me to say
"Thank you Jesus"
all the while. Whatever I was feeling was not the love of
Jesus. ...
I should like to warn others that these churches, and the
cult-like
zealotry
of the preachers do not bring you the success in life you
might wish for.
Jesus warned that there would many false Christs who take
advantage of the
physical and mental famine of other people. They might
appear to be sweet
and loving, but if you get too close - watch out!

This is VERY true! I am an expentecostal but still a
Christian after 30
years. TWO excerpts below. Please read:

*******************

from http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#d

How Revivalist Preachers Work

If you'd like to see a revivalist preacher at work, there
are probably
several in your city. Go to the church or tent early and sit
in the rear,
about three-quarters of the way back. Most likely repetitive
music will be
played while the people come in for the service. A
repetitive beat, ideally
ranging from 45 to 72 beats per minute (a rhythm close to
the beat of the
human heart), is very hypnotic and can generate an eyes-open
altered state
of consciousness in a very high percentage of people. And,
once you are in
an alpha state, you are at least 25 times as suggestible as
you would be in
full beta consciousness. The music is probably the same for
every service,
or incorporates the same beat, and many of the people will
go into an
altered state almost immediately upon entering the
sanctuary.
Subconsciously, they recall their state of mind from
previous services and
respond according to the post-hypnotic programming.

Watch the people waiting for the service to begin. Many will
exhibit
external signs of trance--body relaxation and slightly
dilated eyes. Often,
they begin swaying back and forth with their hands in the
air while sitting
in their chairs. Next, the assistant pastor will probably
come out. He
usually speaks with a pretty good "voice roll."




The "Voice Roll" Technique
A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by
hypnotists when inducing
a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom
are highly
trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point
firmly in the minds
of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were
talking to the
beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were
emphasizing every word
in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be
delivered at the
rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic
effect.




The Build-up Process: Inducing Altered States
Now the assistant pastor begins the "build-up" process. He
induces an
altered state of consciousness and/or begins to generate the
excitement and
the expectations of the audience. Next, a group of young
women in "sweet and
pure" chiffon dresses might come out to sing a song. Gospel
songs are great
for building excitement and involvement. In the middle of
the song, one of
the girls might be "smitten by the spirit" and fall down or
react as if
possessed by the Holy Spirit. This very effectively
increases the intensity
in the room. At this point, hypnosis and conversion tactics
are being mixed.
And the result is the audience's attention span is now
totally focused upon
the communication while the environment becomes more
exciting or tense.




Assured Continuation: Fleecing the Flock
Right about this time, when an eyes-open mass-induced alpha
mental state has
been achieved, they will usually pass the collection plate
or basket. In the
background, a 45-beat-per-minute voice roll from the
assistant preacher
might exhort, "Give to God...Give to God...Give to God...."
And the audience
does give. God may not get the money, but his
already-wealthy representative
will.




Bonding by Fear and Suggestion
Next, the fire-and-brimstone preacher will come out. He
induces fear and
increases the tension by talking about "the devil," "going
to hell," or the
forthcoming Armegeddon.

In the last such rally I attended, the preacher talked about
the blood that
would soon be running out of every faucet in the land. He
was also obsessed
with a "bloody axe of God," which everyone had seen hanging
above the pulpit
the previous week. I have no doubt that everyone saw it--the
power of
suggestion given to hundreds of people in hypnosis assures
that at least 10
to 25 percent would see whatever he suggested they see.




Testimony: Creating Community Spirit
In most revivalist gatherings, "testifying" or "witnessing"
usually follows
the fear-based sermon. People from the audience come up on
stage and relate
their stories. "I was crippled and now I can walk!" "I had
arthritis and now
it's gone!" It is a psychological manipulation that works.
After listening
to numerous case histories of miraculous healings, the
average guy in the
audience with a minor problem is sure he can be healed. The
room is charged
with fear, guilt, intense excitement, and expectations.




Miracles
Now those who want to be healed are frequently lined up
around the edge of
the room, or they are told to come down to the front. The
preacher might
touch them on the head firmly and scream, "Be healed!" This
releases the
psychic energy and, for many, catharsis results. Catharsis
is a purging of
repressed emotions. Individuals might cry, fall down or even
go into spasms.
And if catharsis is effected, they stand a chance of being
healed. In
catharsis (one of the three brain phases mentioned earlier),
the brain-slate
is temporarily wiped clean and the new suggestion is
accepted.

For some, the healing may be permanent. For many, it will
last four days to
a week, which is, incidentally, how long a hypnotic
suggestion given to a
somnambulistic subject will usually last. Even if the
healing doesn't last,
if they come back every week, the power of suggestion may
continually
override the problem...or sometimes, sadly, it can mask a
physical problem
which could prove to be very detrimental to the individual
in the long run.




The Grey Area of Legitimacy
I'm not saying that legitimate healings do not take place.
They do. Maybe
the individual was ready to let go of the negativity that
caused the problem
in the first place; maybe it was the work of God. Yet I
contend that it can
be explained with existing knowledge of brain/mind function.




A Game in Which the Rules Keep Changing
The techniques and staging will vary from church to church.
Many use
"speaking in tongues" to generate catharsis in some while
the spectacle
creates intense excitement in the observers.

The use of hypnotic techniques by religions is
sophisticated, and
professionals are assuring that they become even more
effective. A man in
Los Angeles is designing, building, and reworking a lot of
churches around
the country. He tells ministers what they need and how to
use it. This man's
track record indicates that the congregation and the
monetary income will
double if the minister follows his instructions. He admits
that about 80
percent of his efforts are in the sound system and lighting.

Powerful sound and the proper use of lighting are of primary
importance in
inducing an altered state of consciousnes--I've been using
them for years in
my own seminars. However, my participants are fully aware of
the process and
what they can expect as a result of their participation.

******************************

FUNDAMENTALISM (from Peter Cameron's "Fundamentalism and
Freedom"
(Doubleday; Sydney: 1995. pp. 6-7)

Most Fundamentalists persuade themselves that they are
imitating Christ,
even to the extent of making the farcical allegation that
they share his
attitude to the infallibility of the Bible. But that apart,
the Grand
Inquisitor illustrates perfectly the following features of
Fundamentalists-
a distrust and fear of freedom; a belief in the importance
of authority and
in controlling what people believe; a corre*sponding
preference for
obedience rather than love; a desire to give people what
they want rather
than the truth: a refusal to allow themselves to be in the
least
disconcerted when they are confronted with the true nature
of their
religion; and a readiness to persecute and exclude anyone
who is of a
different persuasion.

To reduce that to convenient headings, the Fundamentalist is
uncomfortable
with freedom, truth, and dissent; and very much at home with
authority,
obedience, and conformity But the most striking feature of
the
Fundamentalist is that, whether he is conscious of it or
not, his approach
results in the total contra*diction of what he professes to
believe.

*********************************




--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

From: "Mark and Bev Tindall"
Subject: BAPTISM BY THE BEAST
Date: Monday, December 01, 2003 5:06 PM

"Dario Western" wrote:

I attended a Pentecostal church in 1991 in which they
claimed to remove
spirits of 'witchcraft, homosexuality and deceit' from me.
.....
It was pretty scary stuff, and I remember being held down
on the floor and
writhing about whilst the pastor kept telling me to say
"Thank you Jesus"
all the while. Whatever I was feeling was not the love of
Jesus. ...
I should like to warn others that these churches, and the
cult-like
zealotry
of the preachers do not bring you the success in life you
might wish for.
Jesus warned that there would many false Christs who take
advantage of the
physical and mental famine of other people. They might
appear to be sweet
and loving, but if you get too close - watch out!

This is VERY true! I am an expentecostal but still a
Christian after 30
years. TWO excerpts below. Please read:

*******************

from http://www.ctyme.com/bwash/bwash.htm#d

How Revivalist Preachers Work

If you'd like to see a revivalist preacher at work, there
are probably
several in your city. Go to the church or tent early and sit
in the rear,
about three-quarters of the way back. Most likely repetitive
music will be
played while the people come in for the service. A
repetitive beat, ideally
ranging from 45 to 72 beats per minute (a rhythm close to
the beat of the
human heart), is very hypnotic and can generate an eyes-open
altered state
of consciousness in a very high percentage of people. And,
once you are in
an alpha state, you are at least 25 times as suggestible as
you would be in
full beta consciousness. The music is probably the same for
every service,
or incorporates the same beat, and many of the people will
go into an
altered state almost immediately upon entering the
sanctuary.
Subconsciously, they recall their state of mind from
previous services and
respond according to the post-hypnotic programming.

Watch the people waiting for the service to begin. Many will
exhibit
external signs of trance--body relaxation and slightly
dilated eyes. Often,
they begin swaying back and forth with their hands in the
air while sitting
in their chairs. Next, the assistant pastor will probably
come out. He
usually speaks with a pretty good "voice roll."




The "Voice Roll" Technique
A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by
hypnotists when inducing
a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom
are highly
trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point
firmly in the minds
of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were
talking to the
beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were
emphasizing every word
in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be
delivered at the
rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic
effect.




The Build-up Process: Inducing Altered States
Now the assistant pastor begins the "build-up" process. He
induces an
altered state of consciousness and/or begins to generate the
excitement and
the expectations of the audience. Next, a group of young
women in "sweet and
pure" chiffon dresses might come out to sing a song. Gospel
songs are great
for building excitement and involvement. In the middle of
the song, one of
the girls might be "smitten by the spirit" and fall down or
react as if
possessed by the Holy Spirit. This very effectively
increases the intensity
in the room. At this point, hypnosis and conversion tactics
are being mixed.
And the result is the audience's attention span is now
totally focused upon
the communication while the environment becomes more
exciting or tense.




Assured Continuation: Fleecing the Flock
Right about this time, when an eyes-open mass-induced alpha
mental state has
been achieved, they will usually pass the collection plate
or basket. In the
background, a 45-beat-per-minute voice roll from the
assistant preacher
might exhort, "Give to God...Give to God...Give to God...."
And the audience
does give. God may not get the money, but his
already-wealthy representative
will.




Bonding by Fear and Suggestion
Next, the fire-and-brimstone preacher will come out. He
induces fear and
increases the tension by talking about "the devil," "going
to hell," or the
forthcoming Armegeddon.

In the last such rally I attended, the preacher talked about
the blood that
would soon be running out of every faucet in the land. He
was also obsessed
with a "bloody axe of God," which everyone had seen hanging
above the pulpit
the previous week. I have no doubt that everyone saw it--the
power of
suggestion given to hundreds of people in hypnosis assures
that at least 10
to 25 percent would see whatever he suggested they see.




Testimony: Creating Community Spirit
In most revivalist gatherings, "testifying" or "witnessing"
usually follows
the fear-based sermon. People from the audience come up on
stage and relate
their stories. "I was crippled and now I can walk!" "I had
arthritis and now
it's gone!" It is a psychological manipulation that works.
After listening
to numerous case histories of miraculous healings, the
average guy in the
audience with a minor problem is sure he can be healed. The
room is charged
with fear, guilt, intense excitement, and expectations.




Miracles
Now those who want to be healed are frequently lined up
around the edge of
the room, or they are told to come down to the front. The
preacher might
touch them on the head firmly and scream, "Be healed!" This
releases the
psychic energy and, for many, catharsis results. Catharsis
is a purging of
repressed emotions. Individuals might cry, fall down or even
go into spasms.
And if catharsis is effected, they stand a chance of being
healed. In
catharsis (one of the three brain phases mentioned earlier),
the brain-slate
is temporarily wiped clean and the new suggestion is
accepted.

For some, the healing may be permanent. For many, it will
last four days to
a week, which is, incidentally, how long a hypnotic
suggestion given to a
somnambulistic subject will usually last. Even if the
healing doesn't last,
if they come back every week, the power of suggestion may
continually
override the problem...or sometimes, sadly, it can mask a
physical problem
which could prove to be very detrimental to the individual
in the long run.




The Grey Area of Legitimacy
I'm not saying that legitimate healings do not take place.
They do. Maybe
the individual was ready to let go of the negativity that
caused the problem
in the first place; maybe it was the work of God. Yet I
contend that it can
be explained with existing knowledge of brain/mind function.




A Game in Which the Rules Keep Changing
The techniques and staging will vary from church to church.
Many use
"speaking in tongues" to generate catharsis in some while
the spectacle
creates intense excitement in the observers.

The use of hypnotic techniques by religions is
sophisticated, and
professionals are assuring that they become even more
effective. A man in
Los Angeles is designing, building, and reworking a lot of
churches around
the country. He tells ministers what they need and how to
use it. This man's
track record indicates that the congregation and the
monetary income will
double if the minister follows his instructions. He admits
that about 80
percent of his efforts are in the sound system and lighting.

Powerful sound and the proper use of lighting are of primary
importance in
inducing an altered state of consciousnes--I've been using
them for years in
my own seminars. However, my participants are fully aware of
the process and
what they can expect as a result of their participation.

******************************

FUNDAMENTALISM (from Peter Cameron's "Fundamentalism and
Freedom"
(Doubleday; Sydney: 1995. pp. 6-7)

Most Fundamentalists persuade themselves that they are
imitating Christ,
even to the extent of making the farcical allegation that
they share his
attitude to the infallibility of the Bible. But that apart,
the Grand
Inquisitor illustrates perfectly the following features of
Fundamentalists-
a distrust and fear of freedom; a belief in the importance
of authority and
in controlling what people believe; a corre*sponding
preference for
obedience rather than love; a desire to give people what
they want rather
than the truth: a refusal to allow themselves to be in the
least
disconcerted when they are confronted with the true nature
of their
religion; and a readiness to persecute and exclude anyone
who is of a
different persuasion.

To reduce that to convenient headings, the Fundamentalist is
uncomfortable
with freedom, truth, and dissent; and very much at home with
authority,
obedience, and conformity But the most striking feature of
the
Fundamentalist is that, whether he is conscious of it or
not, his approach
results in the total contra*diction of what he professes to
believe.

*********************************




--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Points of the True Church



Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph
5:23)
The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and
Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
The true church must have the same organization as
Christ's Church (Eph
4:11-14)
The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 4:4-10)
The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34;
John 10:11-13)
The true church must baptize by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by
the laying on of
hands (Acts 8:14-17)
The true church must practice divine healing (Mark
3:14-15)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate
and distinct
individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies
of flesh and bone
(Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1;
40:13-16)
The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
The true church must be a missionary church (Matt
28:19-20)
The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor
15:16&29)
"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)




--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Points of the True Church



Christ organized the Church (Eph 4:11-14)
The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ (Eph
5:23)
The true church must have a foundation of Apostles and
Prophets (Eph 2:19-20)
The true church must have the same organization as
Christ's Church (Eph
4:11-14)
The true church must claim divine authority (Heb 4:4-10)
The true church must have no paid ministry (Acts 20:33-34;
John 10:11-13)
The true church must baptize by immersion (Matt 3:13-16)
The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost by
the laying on of
hands (Acts 8:14-17)
The true church must practice divine healing (Mark
3:14-15)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate
and distinct
individuals (John 17:11; 20:17)
The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies
of flesh and bone
(Luke 23:36-39; Acts 1:9-11; Heb 1:1-3)
The officers must be called by God (Heb 4:4; Ex 28:1;
40:13-16)
The true church must claim revelation from God (Amos 3:7)
The true church must be a missionary church (Matt
28:19-20)
The true church must be a restored church (Acts 3:19-20)
The true church must practice baptism for the dead (1Cor
15:16&29)
"By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7:20)




--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Some years ago, when I'd first joined the church, I was very
happy with
the world,a nd wanted to share my happiness with everyon. I
was
installing a couple locks on a house for a fellow, and
wanted to share
my joy iwth him. This was about 1990, so the details are a
bit fuzzy. Anyhow, he turns
out to be a baptist minister. I've since learned that I need
to avoid
baptist and Cavalry Chapel ministers. They tend to be quite
Antimormon.

Anyhow, he sent me home wtih a copy of Walter Martin's
"Kingdom of the
Cults". And an audio cassette which was the sound track of
the movie The
Godmakers.

Well, I had a read through the book, and it had chapters for
Mormons,
Jehovas, Scientology, etc. And it surely did not describe
the church I
was attending. It was about 1/3 accurte, 1/3 misrepresented,
and 1/3
stuff I'd never heard in my entire life.

In the years since then, I've learned a couple things. And,
in super
short form, here they are........

1) A lot of people tell lot of lies about Mormons. Very
often, the
Mormon Cult they try to describe is very much different than
the Church
of Jesus Christ that we attend. But, supposing you want to
buy a Ford
truck. Would you go to a Chevy dealer,a nd ask them about
Fords? Why,
then, would you go to a Baptist minister to learn about
Mormons?
Supposing the Mormons wrote a pamphlet about Baptists? Would
you and I
believe the Mormon pamphlet, or would we go to visit a
Baptist service,
and see for ourselves?

2) When you try to describe the Church of Jesus Christ, very
often
people won't believe you. They will try to convince you that
the little
pamphlet that their pastor gave them is right, and that you,
who go to
church, study the Book of Mormon, go to Genral Conference,
and go to
Stake Conference, and read the Ensign, are wrong. They will
try to
convince you that this is what the old guys in Salt Lake
*REALLY*
believe, and that the old guys are lying to you every time
they approach
the mic. (Who is the father of all lies, after all?) Many of
these antis
have never attended a LDS church service, or had the six
discussions.
Worse, some of the antis are former LDS who have lost the
Spirit, and
gone to the dark side. I'd be curious about this fellow. Is
he a "never
been" or a "been and fallen away"?

3) And very often, when you tell them about the Church of
Jesus Christ,
they will continue to believe the little pamphlet that their
pastor gave
them. This is the height of insult. A person who does this
stands up on
his toes, looks you in the eye, nose to nose and says "YOU
ARE LYING TO
ME ABOUT WHAT YOU AND YOUR CHURCH BELIEVES". People who call
me a liar
to my face, well it's challenging not to use violence. But
as long as a
person is calling me a liar, the Spirit can't dwell. So,
that other
person is caught in an evil spirit, believing that everyone
else is
lying. This is "projection". It goes like..... "I'm a liar,
and there
fore everyone else is".

4) There is a never ending stream of antimormon literature
out there. It
is impossible to prove the Church of Jesus Christ by reading
scriptures.
If you quote LDS scripture, they will quote twisted
scripture, or out of
context back at you.

5) Worse, there are many people who simply don't appear to
want to know
the truth. They have their own view of God, and don't want
to hear the
truth.

In short, about the only thing I can think at this point is
to tell him
how many years you've been in the church, and that A, B, C,
is what the
church has taught for all those years. I wouldn't try to
respond point
to point, or try to rebutt anything.

It will become clear in his next response or two if he's
seeking God, or
trying to get out out of "that cult". Actually, his email
already was
very clear that he is trying to get you out of the cult. The
question is
whether he's open minded enough to hear the truth. I kinda
doubt it.



--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Some years ago, when I'd first joined the church, I was very
happy with
the world,a nd wanted to share my happiness with everyon. I
was
installing a couple locks on a house for a fellow, and
wanted to share
my joy iwth him. This was about 1990, so the details are a
bit fuzzy. Anyhow, he turns
out to be a baptist minister. I've since learned that I need
to avoid
baptist and Cavalry Chapel ministers. They tend to be quite
Antimormon.

Anyhow, he sent me home wtih a copy of Walter Martin's
"Kingdom of the
Cults". And an audio cassette which was the sound track of
the movie The
Godmakers.

Well, I had a read through the book, and it had chapters for
Mormons,
Jehovas, Scientology, etc. And it surely did not describe
the church I
was attending. It was about 1/3 accurte, 1/3 misrepresented,
and 1/3
stuff I'd never heard in my entire life.

In the years since then, I've learned a couple things. And,
in super
short form, here they are........

1) A lot of people tell lot of lies about Mormons. Very
often, the
Mormon Cult they try to describe is very much different than
the Church
of Jesus Christ that we attend. But, supposing you want to
buy a Ford
truck. Would you go to a Chevy dealer,a nd ask them about
Fords? Why,
then, would you go to a Baptist minister to learn about
Mormons?
Supposing the Mormons wrote a pamphlet about Baptists? Would
you and I
believe the Mormon pamphlet, or would we go to visit a
Baptist service,
and see for ourselves?

2) When you try to describe the Church of Jesus Christ, very
often
people won't believe you. They will try to convince you that
the little
pamphlet that their pastor gave them is right, and that you,
who go to
church, study the Book of Mormon, go to Genral Conference,
and go to
Stake Conference, and read the Ensign, are wrong. They will
try to
convince you that this is what the old guys in Salt Lake
*REALLY*
believe, and that the old guys are lying to you every time
they approach
the mic. (Who is the father of all lies, after all?) Many of
these antis
have never attended a LDS church service, or had the six
discussions.
Worse, some of the antis are former LDS who have lost the
Spirit, and
gone to the dark side. I'd be curious about this fellow. Is
he a "never
been" or a "been and fallen away"?

3) And very often, when you tell them about the Church of
Jesus Christ,
they will continue to believe the little pamphlet that their
pastor gave
them. This is the height of insult. A person who does this
stands up on
his toes, looks you in the eye, nose to nose and says "YOU
ARE LYING TO
ME ABOUT WHAT YOU AND YOUR CHURCH BELIEVES". People who call
me a liar
to my face, well it's challenging not to use violence. But
as long as a
person is calling me a liar, the Spirit can't dwell. So,
that other
person is caught in an evil spirit, believing that everyone
else is
lying. This is "projection". It goes like..... "I'm a liar,
and there
fore everyone else is".

4) There is a never ending stream of antimormon literature
out there. It
is impossible to prove the Church of Jesus Christ by reading
scriptures.
If you quote LDS scripture, they will quote twisted
scripture, or out of
context back at you.

5) Worse, there are many people who simply don't appear to
want to know
the truth. They have their own view of God, and don't want
to hear the
truth.

In short, about the only thing I can think at this point is
to tell him
how many years you've been in the church, and that A, B, C,
is what the
church has taught for all those years. I wouldn't try to
respond point
to point, or try to rebutt anything.

It will become clear in his next response or two if he's
seeking God, or
trying to get out out of "that cult". Actually, his email
already was
very clear that he is trying to get you out of the cult. The
question is
whether he's open minded enough to hear the truth. I kinda
doubt it.



--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


"Diogenes" wrote in message
s.com...
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wish you guys would quit cross posting.


I wish you'd quit top-posting.
I wish you'd not clip alt.locksmithing out of the
distribution.
But, most of all; I wish you'd die.

--
Diogenes

Reggie Bar wrote:

Quite possibly the most ignorant statement in the entire history of OS's. You should be
proud.



On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:00:25 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:


In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv

wrote
on Thu, 27 May 2004 09:21:39 -0500
:

"T.G.Reaper" wrote:


Like you said, it's easy to install Linux. The real fun, is what
happens after that. When the new Linux user wants to read his email,
copy all his favorites over from his old machine/drive, play streaming
audio, or video, download binaries from the Net, burn CDs, etc, etc,
etc. Is someone supposed to show him/her all that, or are they just
supposed to: "pick-it-up-on-their-own?"

Do you think the average fool learned Windoze in a day? I hate to
break it to you, but operating a computer is a life skill that's worth
investing a little bit of time in. God forbid someone should take a
class (many do, all for Windoze, of course) or read a book.


Windows can be learned in a few seconds. Mouse thing to
your right, move, press either button, something happens.
(Hopefully something good.)

But it's a bit like Othello in that respect -- a minute
to learn, a lifetime to master.


Ahhhh! Othello, now THAT is a LOVE/HATE thing....

Reggie Bar wrote:

Quite possibly the most ignorant statement in the entire history of OS's. You should be
proud.



On Thu, 27 May 2004 20:00:25 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
wrote:


In comp.os.linux.advocacy, chrisv

wrote
on Thu, 27 May 2004 09:21:39 -0500
:

"T.G.Reaper" wrote:


Like you said, it's easy to install Linux. The real fun, is what
happens after that. When the new Linux user wants to read his email,
copy all his favorites over from his old machine/drive, play streaming
audio, or video, download binaries from the Net, burn CDs, etc, etc,
etc. Is someone supposed to show him/her all that, or are they just
supposed to: "pick-it-up-on-their-own?"

Do you think the average fool learned Windoze in a day? I hate to
break it to you, but operating a computer is a life skill that's worth
investing a little bit of time in. God forbid someone should take a
class (many do, all for Windoze, of course) or read a book.


Windows can be learned in a few seconds. Mouse thing to
your right, move, press either button, something happens.
(Hopefully something good.)

But it's a bit like Othello in that respect -- a minute
to learn, a lifetime to master.


Ahhhh! Othello, now THAT is a LOVE/HATE thing....