[David Nebenzahl]

I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East
Bay area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both
have told me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case. (Mostly
used stuff, but some new LP releases.)

As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger generation
seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it can be
called) via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are tinny and
harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem to like it.
But independent of this, vinyl sales have increased.

Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older,
discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a comeback it
really is.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Mr.T]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older,
discarded analog recording medium.

Why? It was discarded for very good reasons. What is needed is a return to
good quality mastering, it will be intersting to see if they actually
managed that with the new releases of the Beatles albums next week. I'm
hoping they did, and that it sparks an interest in more of the same, rather
than a return to high cost, low quality playback equipment.

We'll see how much of a comeback it
really is.

It never went away, simply became a very minor fringe/nostalgia media.
Even the disco DJ's seem to be going digital as far as I can see.

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com

I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

Something?

Hmm, anything is something.

Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium?

Unlikely.

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl
basically died in less than 10 years.

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com

I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

Something?

Hmm, anything is something.

Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium?

Unlikely.

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl. Vinyl
basically died in less than 10 years.




The other thing is that although the youngsters will download their
music, the older generation still prefers CDs and the grey power brigade
have a much greater disposable income.


Cheers

Ian

[Arny Krueger]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message

Arny Krueger wrote:
"David Nebenzahl" wrote in
message
s.com
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

Something?

Hmm, anything is something.

Will vinyl ever become a mainstream medium?

Unlikely.

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.

The other thing is that although the youngsters will
download their music, the older generation still prefers
CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater
disposable income.

Good point.

People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back vinyl are
playing a very strange game.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/4/2009 6:45 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"Ian Bell" wrote in message


The other thing is that although the youngsters will
download their music, the older generation still prefers
CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater
disposable income.

Good point.

People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back vinyl are
playing a very strange game.

I don't mean to claim there's a direct correlation between declining CD
sales and increasing LP sales, though there are some interesting
relationships in play.

And of course vinyl will never again become the dominant medium. But
that's not the point here.

I think the point about who's got the money is an important one too.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/4/2009 6:45 AM Arny Krueger spake thus:

"Ian Bell" wrote in message


The other thing is that although the youngsters will
download their music, the older generation still prefers
CDs and the grey power brigade have a much greater
disposable income.

Good point.

People who think that dancing on the grave of CDs will bring back
vinyl are playing a very strange game.

I don't mean to claim there's a direct correlation between declining CD
sales and increasing LP sales, though there are some interesting
relationships in play.

And of course vinyl will never again become the dominant medium. But
that's not the point here.

I think the point about who's got the money is an important one too.



The other point is that, since vinyl sales are tiny compared to all
other media, they can increase ten fold and still be three fifths of
bugger all.

Cheers

ian

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl.
Vinyl
basically died in less than 10 years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!
(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology)
So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-)

MrT.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus:

"Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message
...

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with
vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!
(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology)
So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway? :-)

Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or
what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of
course.)

(And don't forget wax and shellac recordings.)


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Ian Bell[_2_]]

David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus:

"Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message
...

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with
vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!
(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same
technology)
So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares
anyway? :-)

Both good questions, actually.


Well, if you are going to include products based on the same technology
to get 80 years for for vinyl then the CD already has 30 years to its
credit.


Cheers

Ian

[Mr.T]

"Ian Bell" wrote in message
...
Well, if you are going to include products based on the same technology
to get 80 years for for vinyl then the CD already has 30 years to its
credit.

And 28 even if you don't! Only half a century or so to go then :-)

MrT.

[Peter Larsen[_3_]]

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium?

Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a
playback medium.

Kind regards

Peter Larsen

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/5/2009 2:47 AM Peter Larsen spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium?

Medialess, the cd has already become a transport medium rather than a
playback medium.

What about those people who prefer some kind of tangible thing, as
opposed to something just grabbed out of the ether? You know, something
with pictures, liner notes, etc.

Is that just so 20th century?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Arny Krueger]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com
On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus:

So what do you see as the next medium?

It's already here - just a data file on no particular medium in particular.

[Michael Black[_2_]]

On Fri, 4 Sep 2009, David Nebenzahl wrote:

On 9/4/2009 10:17 PM Mr.T spake thus:

"Arny Krueger" [maybe] wrote in message
...

Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it did with vinyl.
Vinyl basically died in less than 10 years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!
(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the same technology)
So the question is whether CD will last 80+ years? Or, who cares anyway?
:-)

Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or
what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of
course.)

That's the transistion. CDs aren't disappearing because a better medium
came along (be it the more portable notion of cassettes that helped to
drive off records, or the higher density and maybe better sound of the
CD that finished off records). They are disappearing because people
are either not buying music, or have decided to buy electronically.

I find this terrible. My 30 year old records still exist, they are
tangible complete with the record covers. Same with CDs, I can pop
those in my computer and make them digital or even into MP3s, and while
those formats are even better than CD convenience wise (just like CDs
were more convenient than records by being smaller, higher density,
and in equipment that could be remotely controlled), I want the tangible
CD to ensure I actually have the music.

Yes, I suppose the CD could break or get scratched and become useless.
But I damaged only one of my records, through stupidity, in thirty years,
so why should I expect CDs to fail? But there does seem something
terribly insecure about buying a digital file and keeping it on my
hard drive.

There's a world of difference between choosing to convert CDs or
cassettes or records into MP3s for practical reasons, and a scenario
where MP3s become the form of music because the smaller size makes
it easier to retrieve.

Michael


(And don't forget wax and shellac recordings.)


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Andrew Barss[_2_]]

Michael Black wrote:
: what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of
: course.)
:
: That's the transistion. CDs aren't disappearing because a better medium
: came along (be it the more portable notion of cassettes that helped to
: drive off records, or the higher density and maybe better sound of the
: CD that finished off records). They are disappearing because people
: are either not buying music, or have decided to buy electronically.

: I find this terrible. My 30 year old records still exist, they are
: tangible complete with the record covers. Same with CDs, I can pop
: those in my computer and make them digital or even into MP3s, and while
: those formats are even better than CD convenience wise (just like CDs
: were more convenient than records by being smaller, higher density,
: and in equipment that could be remotely controlled), I want the tangible
: CD to ensure I actually have the music.

: Yes, I suppose the CD could break or get scratched and become useless.
: But I damaged only one of my records, through stupidity, in thirty years,
: so why should I expect CDs to fail? But there does seem something
: terribly insecure about buying a digital file and keeping it on my
: hard drive.

: There's a world of difference between choosing to convert CDs or
: cassettes or records into MP3s for practical reasons, and a scenario
: where MP3s become the form of music because the smaller size makes
: it easier to retrieve.


What really worries me is DRM. I have the CDs in
storage, and I play FLAC files from a (well backed up) hard drive.
What makes this easy is that I own the CD, and there are no
software constraints on what I can do with a FLAC file I rip from it.
I can copy it to any hard drive I like, make multiple copies on various
media, play it on any computer I use.

What I'm afraid of is that this is going to end, and I'll need a license
to listen to a given song/album for every device I want to listen to it
on/from/with. Buy a new computer, gotta buy the music all over again.

This is also true for ebooks, one of several reasons I
refuse to buy an e-reader.

-- Andy Barss

[Mr.T]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
Both good questions, actually. So what do you see as the next medium? Or
what *should* the next medium be? (Not necessarily the same thing, of
course.)

Solid state media cards. A 1GB SD card could easily be used now at current
prices, but it won't happen unfortunately, simply because they can charge
just as much for downloads it seems, and YOU have to pay for the
card/storage media, pay the internet fees to download it, pay to print the
artwork etc.(if any is even provided.)

No media manufacturing, warehousing, distribution, or retail mark-up costs,
coupled with approximately the same end user charge, equals *FAR* more
profit for them!!!
(minus what they spend on legal fees pursuing those who won't pay so much
for lossy-compressed media-less "bits" of course)

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!

Revisionst history!

There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even
been invented. If it existed in some lab, there still weren't any production
quantities of it. Vinyl as a production product was a product of the U.S.
synthetic rubber program of WW2.

There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but they weren't vinyl,
they weren't microgroove, they generally were not made or widely played
electronically (electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't stereo.

(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the
same technology)

Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology. There were many steps
along the way. Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl stereo
ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we know it a 30 year run.

[Mr.T]

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD evenutally go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!

Revisionst history!

Yes it seems that's what you were attempting.


There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the chemical vinyl had even
been invented.

And you ignore that I wrote "(I include acetate disks and cylinders here
which
are the same technology)" to make this point. Why?


There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but they weren't
vinyl,
they weren't microgroove, they generally were not made or widely played
electronically (electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't stereo.

So what. They WERE similar mechanical groove on disk technology, AND
microgroove/stereo/vinyl disks were around a lot more than ten years in any
case, so your comment was still wrong!


(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are the
same technology)

Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology.

Sure, why not say CD4 only lasted a couple of years if you want to make some
stupid, irrelevant point then?


There were many steps along the way.

Absolutely, and 78 disks were so similar they could still be played on many
of the latest turntables. NOT so with CD's which I would say ARE a
completely new technology.

You of course are welcome to any definition you like, as long as you don't
expect the whole world to agree with you!


Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl stereo
ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we know it a 30 year
run.

And yet you said ten years, why?

MrT.

[Arny Krueger]

"Mr.T" MrT@home wrote in message

"Arny Krueger" wrote in message
...
Will the CD eventually go the way of vinyl?

Possibly, but it will probably take far longer than it
did with vinyl. Vinyl basically died in less than 10
years.

Ignoring the previous 80 years of course!!!!!!!!!!

Revisionist history!

Yes it seems that's what you were attempting.


There was no vinyl 80 years ago. I doubt that the
chemical vinyl had even been invented.

And you ignore that I wrote "(I include acetate disks and
cylinders here which are the same technology)" to make this point. Why?

As I explained in another post, there were monumental sound quality upgrades
at each step along the way. OK, they all worked base on wiggles in a groove.
But I've heard numerous examples of each of these technologies played, and
they are really different.

There were large black disks with grooves in 1929, but
they weren't vinyl, they weren't microgroove, they
generally were not made or widely played electronically
(electronics was in its infancy), and they weren't
stereo.

So what.

To me SQ and performance are very important. Each step along the way from
tinfoil on cylinders to the final vinyl LP of the late 70s brought
significant SQ benefits.

They WERE similar mechanical groove on disk technology

But there were tremendous performance benefits, and the production process
changed violently.

AND microgroove/stereo/vinyl disks were
around a lot more than ten years in any case,

I said that they died in less than 10 years, with the implication that the
10 years started when the CD became available.

so your comment was still wrong!

As you read it.

(I include acetate disks and cylinders here which are
the same technology)

Nope. They were a related, predecessor technology.

Sure, why not say CD4 only lasted a couple of years if
you want to make some stupid, irrelevant point then?

CD4 died during childbirth.

There were many steps along the way.

Absolutely, and 78 disks were so similar they could still
be played on many of the latest turntables.

People play cylinders with modern cartridges fitted with special styli on
special players, but they are a violently different technology if you look
at the production steps and the resulting sound quality.

NOT so with CD's which I would say ARE a completely new technology.

Agreed that CDs were a completely new take on the process of distributing
music. However, there was a point where some thought that RCA's video disc
technology, which was based on mechanically playing a spiral groove on a
disk would replace the LP. It could handle digital data at acceptable data
rates for uncompressed PCM.

You of course are welcome to any definition you like, as
long as you don't expect the whole world to agree with
you!

It appears that I did not do a good job of expressing the idea that the 10
years of vinyl death did not start until there was a viable alternative,
namely the CD.

Vinyl mono ruled from about 1953 to 1958, and vinyl
stereo ruled from 1958 to about 1988. So, give vinyl as we
know it a 30 year run.

And yet you said ten years, why?

I was referring to the overlap, after the CD became marketable. Vinyl
stopped ruling around 1988, and by 1993 it was clear to all but a few noisy
high end audiophiles that it was dead as a mainstream format.

[Geoff]

David Nebenzahl wrote:
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East
Bay area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both
have told me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case.
(Mostly used stuff, but some new LP releases.)

As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger
generation seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it
can be called) via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are
tinny and harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem
to like it. But independent of this, vinyl sales have increased.

Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an
older, discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a
comeback it really is.

Maybe if people get back a taste for sound quality, then they'll move from
vinyl 'back' to CD !

geoff

[Richard Crowley]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote ...
I think vinyl may be making something of a comeback.

This based on anecdotal evidence: in two local (San Francisco Bay East Bay
area) record shops I've visited recently, people working in both have told
me that their vinyl sales are up--way up in one case. (Mostly used stuff,
but some new LP releases.)

As we know, CD sales are basically in the toilet. The younger generation
seems to be getting most of its "music" (if that's what it can be called)
via non-physical means, many (most?) of which are tinny and
harsh-sounding, but since that's all they know, they seem to like it. But
independent of this, vinyl sales have increased.

Anyhow, it's gratifying to see what appears to be a return to an older,
discarded analog recording medium. We'll see how much of a comeback it
really is.

I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on
a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference
between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate"
is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk.

Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable
to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any
kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a
microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do
these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays.

If you're interested....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus:

I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on
a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference
between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate"
is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk.

Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable
to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any
kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a
microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do
these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays.

If you're interested....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU

Intrestin' ...

Probably won't watch that video right away, as I'm on dialup (yep, I'm a
card-carrying Luddite!). But I did find these pages on dubplates:

http://www.duophonic.de/index.php?vi...bplate_cutting (German mfgr.)
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dubplate
http://www.skratchworx.com/news3/comments.php?id=112

Apparently the discs can be either acetate or vinyl, with vinyl the
preferred substance.


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Richard Crowley]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote...
Richard Crowley spake thus:
I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on
a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference
between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate"
is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk.

Most likely constant pitch, and must require a pretty beefy turntable
to maintain speed while cutting, etc. Not clear that there was any
kind of monitoring the groove, no microscope, etc. Although a
microscope with a video camera would likely be pretty easy to do
these days. They are sold as children's toys nowdays.

If you're interested....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa9_h2CrNJU

Intrestin' ...

Probably won't watch that video right away, as I'm on dialup (yep, I'm a
card-carrying Luddite!). But I did find these pages on dubplates:

http://www.duophonic.de/index.php?vi...bplate_cutting (German mfgr.)
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Dubplate
http://www.skratchworx.com/news3/comments.php?id=112

Apparently the discs can be either acetate or vinyl, with vinyl the
preferred substance.

I saw another vintage film on YouTube showing making a wax
blank by pouring hot wax from a tin measuring cup onto the
spinning turntable. It is remarkably similar to the say we use
"spin-on" methods today to coat silicon wafers with various
chemicals and photoresist, etc. Except we don't need some
guy wielding a hair-dryer to smooth out the surface (as shown
in the movie. :-)

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus:

I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that sits on
a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the difference
between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except that maybe a "dubplate"
is home-cut vs. a commercial moulded vinyl disk.

Is this a vinyl cutterhead?
http://carverycuts.com/dubs/index.ph...9&Itemi d=147

Looks like there's a resistance heater, a vacuum tube to eat the
shaving, and some kind of guide wire or something. And what's that
little hook thingy dangling? Some kind of anti-resonance device?


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Arny Krueger]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com
On 9/7/2009 1:10 PM Richard Crowley spake thus:

I just watched a video on YouTube of a vinyl cutter that
sits on a turntable to make DIY "dubplates". Dunno what is the
difference between a "dubplate" and a vinyl disk except
that maybe a "dubplate" is home-cut vs. a commercial
moulded vinyl disk.

Is this a vinyl cutterhead?
http://carverycuts.com/dubs/index.ph...9&Itemi d=147

Looks like there's a resistance heater,

Resistance wire scramble-wound around the cutting stylus.

a vacuum tube to eat the shaving,

Relatively huge oval orifice behind the stylus.

and some kind of guide wire or something.

The power lead for the resistance wire which may be just more resistance
wire.

And what's that little hook thingy dangling?

Looks like a vinyl shaving that escaped the vacuum and melted it onto the
lead wire.

Some kind of anti-resonance device?

Unlikely.