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#41
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The Best Speakers In The World.
On Apr 30, 3:58*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 10:55:34 -0700, Walt wrote (in article ): Mostly agree, with two caveats: 1) Amplifiers *do* sound different when pushed to their limits. 2) I'm willing to entertain the possibility that there are subtle differences between amplifiers that may be ascertained by carefully controlled listening tests. * It is possible that due to differences in components that there are small differences in the sound of amplifiers or preamps. However, these differences are tiny and don't really mean anything significant. It's also possible that the gentlemen above speaks of amplifiers that can have very real and LARGE differences in sound when combined with different speakers. SET amplifiers generally have quite high output impedances, on the order of several ohms in some cases. That large an output impedance, combined with the very real and large frequency-dependent load impedance presented by nearly every speaker in existance, turns the combination into, essentially, a fixed tone control. For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from 4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass (certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency where it's going to do the most good (or harm, as the case may be): the low frequency resonance of the system. If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at the crossover frequency, near the range where the ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this case. |
#42
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
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#43
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from 4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass (certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency where it's going to do the most good (or harm, as the case may be): the low frequency resonance of the system. If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at the crossover frequency, near the range where the ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this case. While anything is possible and certainly, there are exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in question is more specific in his comments, I have to conclude that he's talking about modern, mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs with high output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances and then, I might agree with him. Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5 posts back in this particular branch of this particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found to be saying:: "With a big SET amplifier like the one I have driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown here http://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm). With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely detailed." I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other things, I am unable to find anything that could be mistaken as " modern, mainstream push- pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state variety. Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs with high output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances," he seemed to have met your requirements to the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT have high output impedance. |
#44
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
wrote in message
... Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5 posts back in this particular branch of this particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found to be saying:: "With a big SET amplifier like the one I have driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown here http://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm). With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely detailed." I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other things, I am unable to find anything that could be mistaken as " modern, mainstream push- pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state variety. Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs with high output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances," he seemed to have met your requirements to the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT have high output impedance. Thanks you! The Lowther units in the Teresonic speakers do not an amplifier that has more output in the low end. The speakers themselves are designed to have output down to about 30Hz, but it is a rather dry bass unless the amplifier gives some help. The Audio Note OTO SE tube amplifier ( http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...to_se_01.shtml ) does give a nice bass output but it is not as good as the 211 based amplifier. The sound stage precision and transparency of the sound with the 211 amp. compared to the AN is also better. It is simply quite a bit more pleasant to listen to. This is not based on double blind testing or even A/B testing as I don't have a setup that allows that. I have heard many amplifiers with these types of speakers and they have sounded quite different. I have also heard differences based on the power source which may be controversial to come people. Wrt. the increase of bass by the 211 amp. I have tried to increase the bass on a ripped CD and burned it to a CD and played it back through the AN amp. but it does not sound as good as the 211 based amp. on the original CD (btw. I don't hear any difference between an origianl CD and one that is burned from a ripping of the original CD as I know some people will claim there is. If there is, I don't hear it). The 211 amp. have large Lundall output transformers and is built on a minimal principle of as few components as possible and with direct connections. The design philosophy is similar to the very pricy Ongako amp. from Audio Note http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/...ngaku_01.shtml. -- Med venlig hilsen/Kind regards, Hans Kruse www.hanskrusephotography.com, www.hanskruse.com |
#45
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
On May 2, 5:09*pm, "Hans Kruse" wrote:
wrote in message Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs with high output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances," he seemed to have met your requirements to the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT have high output impedance. Thanks you! The Lowther units in the Teresonic speakers do not an amplifier that has more output in the low end. The speakers themselves are designed to have output down to about 30Hz, but it is a rather dry bass unless the amplifier gives some help. Hans, I think you are missing the basic premise of my post. I am merely pointing out that you were the one that made the post. I am not advocating or endorsing your choice of amplifiers and speakers. The results may be something you really like, and there's no arguing with that. It's not something I would advocate any of my clients engage in. The simple technical and physically irrefutable fact is that the current modern generations of single- ended, low- or no-global feedback tube amplifiers all suffer from a common technical problem: comparatively high output impedance, proximal, in fact, to that of the load itsel f. The result is that these amplifiers in combination with pretty much ANY speaker is a system with a big fixed tone control. That one has more bass than another is not the least bit surprising: it's a significant frequency response deviation because of the high output impedance of the amp and the frequency dependent impedance variations of the speaker. There are those that suggest that if you WANT those kinds of frequency response variations, an amplifier with an anomolously high output impedance is the wrong way to do it. |
#47
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
On May 3, 11:10*am, Sonnova wrote:
On Fri, 1 May 2009 18:25:55 -0700, wrote (in article ): On May 1, 5:32*pm, Sonnova wrote: On Fri, 1 May 2009 13:18:03 -0700, wrote For example, consider a modest 2-ohm output impedance amplifier driving a speaker whose impedance varies from 4 ohms in the midrange to 40 ohms in the bass (certainly not at all unusual). The result is simply a nice bass boost of 3.2 dB right at the frequency where it's going to do the most good (or harm, as the case may be): the low frequency resonance of the system. If it's a two-way, add a couple of dB boost right at the crossover frequency, near the range where the ear is most sensitive and, voila, you've proven that tone controls are audible. Just not adjustable in this case. While anything is possible and certainly, there are exceptions to every "rule", unless the gentleman in question is more specific in his comments, I have to conclude that he's talking about modern, mainstream push-pull amps of either the tube or the solid-state variety. IOW, if he means SETs with high output impedances, then he should specify SETs with high output impedances and then, I might agree with him. Let's look right back, a mere 3 days and 5 posts back in this particular branch of this particular thread, where Herr Kruse is found to be saying:: * "With a big SET amplifier like the one I have * driven by 211 tubes it sounds absolutely * wonderful and with a lot of bass (it is a new * version of the Teresonic 2A3 amp. shown * herehttp://www.teresonic.com/product_amp.htm). * With an Audio Note Oto SE tube amplifier it is * sounding a bit thin and clinic although extremely * detailed." I don't see a lot of ambiguity the among other things, I am unable to find anything that could be mistaken as " modern, *mainstream push- pull amps of either the tube or *the solid-state variety. Indeed, if you insist that "if he means SETs *with high output impedances, then he should *specify SETs with high output impedances," he seemed to have met your requirements to the fullest. Unless, of course, you know of a zero-feedback SET amplifier that does NOT have high output impedance. I did not see the earlier post as being connected with the OP's *statement about amplifiers having a "sound" * Curious, because you now state that they do have a sound, so I am not sure where your disconnect is. And, I stand by my statement that "if an amp has a sound that is statistically quantifiable, it is because the amp in question is either defective or flawed." I am not arguing with that point at all. (or words to that effect). I say that because, IMHO, SETs are seriously wrongheaded designs which have a "sound" because they are very colored devices. Again, no argument. It's possible that SETs have the rather minuscule following that they do because they provide tone controls for those audiophiles who don't like tone controls. Or something like that. |
#48
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
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#49
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
"Sonnova" wrote in message
... Absolutely. I have heard some very pleasant SET ensembles at audio shows and the like, but believe me they were pleasant because the speakers through which they played were very carefully chosen to match the amps well in that particular demonstration. I once had a pair of Ongoku (SP?) SETs costing many thousands of dollars each sent to me for review. I couldn't make them work with any speakers I had in the house, so I sent them back - unreviewed. The Audio Note Ongaku is an intergrated amplifier built on similar principles as the Teresonic 211 amp. The Ongaku seemed to work very well with the Audio Note AN-E speakers as reported here http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/...means_ecstasy/. Here is a picture of the Teresonic 211 amp. http://www.pbase.com/hkruse/image/106014541/original. Life's too short...... Where can I read your reviews? -- Med venlig hilsen/Kind regards, Hans Kruse www.hanskrusephotography.com, www.hanskruse.com |
#50
Posted to rec.audio.high-end
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The Best Speakers In The World.
On Mon, 4 May 2009 08:05:10 -0700, Hans Kruse wrote
(in article ): "Sonnova" wrote in message ... Absolutely. I have heard some very pleasant SET ensembles at audio shows and the like, but believe me they were pleasant because the speakers through which they played were very carefully chosen to match the amps well in that particular demonstration. I once had a pair of Ongoku (SP?) SETs costing many thousands of dollars each sent to me for review. I couldn't make them work with any speakers I had in the house, so I sent them back - unreviewed. The Audio Note Ongaku is an intergrated amplifier built on similar principles as the Teresonic 211 amp. The Ongaku seemed to work very well with the Audio Note AN-E speakers as reported here http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/...means_ecstasy/. Here is a picture of the Teresonic 211 amp. http://www.pbase.com/hkruse/image/106014541/original. Life's too short...... Where can I read your reviews? There are a bunch of them on Stereophile's web site archives, but they are 20 years old and older and mostly irrelevant now. |
#51
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Of course your sources and your driving electronics will have to be of the same caliber(Audio Research suggested for the Beveridges and spectron for the Von Schweikerts suggested). Hope this helps great listening |
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