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#1
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
I recently recorded a 24-voice acapella group performing in a great-
sounding church. When I make a recording like this, I set up early and record a minute or two of "the room" before anybody's there. I've used that a bit to eliminate low-freq rumbles from HVAC and the like, but this recent performance didn't have any of that. There -was- a low-freq "room sound" (sorry I cannot characterize that better). It wasn't hvac or ac hum; it sounded like stepping into a spacious, empty room. I've experienced that ambient background many places where I've made recordings. For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to X-Y. What accounts for this or am I hearing things? (or not) |
#2
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Jason wrote:
For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to X-Y. Okay, you have L and R signals in a file. You convert them to M and S. Then, you adjust the levels in order to change the stereo image. Then, you convert them back to L and R to play them back. Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage? If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do, there is a mathematical issue going on. If you convert to M-S and then play the M-S signal through two speakers, it will sound bizarre and not very useful. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#3
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
The low freq room tone is probably almost
all mono in phase. Any processing you do to that reduces the mono in phase component and increases the out of phase difference component will likely also reduce the room tone. M |
#4
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 10:40:48 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
I recently recorded a 24-voice acapella group performing in a great- sounding church. When I make a recording like this, I set up early and record a minute or two of "the room" before anybody's there. I've used that a bit to eliminate low-freq rumbles from HVAC Forced air? Steam? What makes "rumble"? Jack and the like, but this recent performance didn't have any of that. There -was- a low-freq "room sound" (sorry I cannot characterize that better). It wasn't hvac or ac hum; it sounded like stepping into a spacious, empty room. I've experienced that ambient background many places where I've made recordings. For fun, I used an Audition plugin to convert the X-Y recording to M-S because I wanted to see what the effect of "more S and less M" would do to spread out the image. The result was very pleasing if I didn't push it very hard. But I noticed something I can't explain: the M-S rendition had much less of "the room" ambience than the X-Y recording. The vocals didn't sound different except for being spread out some. I actually liked the fact that silences during the performance were really silent compared to X-Y. What accounts for this or am I hearing things? (or not) |
#5
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On 29 Apr 2017 23:36:45 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in
article Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage? If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do, there is a mathematical issue going on. I did that. The sound changed, so I think you're speculation about a math issue is probably true. |
#6
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Jason wrote:
On 29 Apr 2017 23:36:45 -0400 "Scott Dorsey" wrote in article Is this the process you are going through, or did you omit one or more stage? If you convert to M-S, don't change the gains, and then convert back to left and right, you shouldn't notice any difference in sound at all. If you do, there is a mathematical issue going on. I did that. The sound changed, so I think you're speculation about a math issue is probably true. Well, that's no good. Let us know what software this is so we can avoid it. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#7
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
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#8
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 12:40:06 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
In article , says... Well, that's no good. Let us know what software this is so we can avoid it. --scott It is a freebie from Voxengo. I see now that there is a newer version. I may see if it's any different. I can use the Channel Mixer in Audition to do the same experiment (I'd forgotten about that), so I'll give that a try. I'd HOPE you could do everything in Audtion, since it's so costly and so filled with bells and whistles. Feel everyone wants to be a Pro, so they must use what Pros use. So silly to think like that. Just my two cents, no attack intended. Jack |
#9
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Sat, 13 May 2017 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article e4be4864-63a9-462c-9adf-4ee66ae2a245 @googlegroups.com Just my two cents, no attack intended. None taken. I use a number of Adobe CC products for audio, photos, video, and document creation so I have a CC subscription. Worth the money for what I need. |
#10
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Saturday, May 13, 2017 at 8:24:53 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Sat, 13 May 2017 10:32:35 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998 @netscape.net wrote in article e4be4864-63a9-462c-9adf-4ee66ae2a245 @googlegroups.com Just my two cents, no attack intended. None taken. I use a number of Adobe CC products for audio, photos, video, and document creation so I have a CC subscription. Worth the money for what I need. Great, Jason!!! I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money. Jack |
#11
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998
@netscape.net wrote in article f1d6a83a-e1ad-448a-b8b8-7a9d10cce932 @googlegroups.com I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money. Simply not true. If you look -carefully- at that update you are given a choice about the yahoo stuff. The Creative Cloud apps are not freebies so don't drag along external baggage. Pay attention! |
#12
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 11:49:22 PM UTC-4, Jason wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2017 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) " jjaj1998 @netscape.net wrote in article f1d6a83a-e1ad-448a-b8b8-7a9d10cce932 @googlegroups.com I can't stand Adobe. Each time you update the Acrobat reader, it installs others' software, like a Yahoo (browser) toolbar. In other words, they are hungry for money. Simply not true. If you look -carefully- at that update you are given a choice about the yahoo stuff. The Creative Cloud apps are not freebies so don't drag along external baggage. Pay attention! Bottom line, Adobe is still hard-up for money, soliciting software for others. I can see how the Adobe reader and a POS Yahoo! toolbar are related. Right. I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. I paid attention :-) Thanks, Jason! Jack |
#13
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. "
I'm sure these companies have some ethics guiding their conduct. That said, this business is not about the people who regularly converse here - it's about the artists, labels, and final product. Of those posters on rec.audio.pro who are engineers(mixing, mastering, etc), it is not their product. They are there to fulfill the client's wishes, even if it makes their ears bleed, or goes against every grain of their conscience! Got it now, Jack? |
#14
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
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#15
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 10:00:14 AM UTC-4, John Williamson wrote:
On 17/05/2017 14:09, wrote: jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. " I'm sure these companies have some ethics guiding their conduct. Large companies' business ethics are constrained by "We need to make as much profit as possible for the shareholders while not getting caught breaking the law" The customer is their only means of doing that. Got it now, thekma? Jack -- Tciao for Now! John. |
#16
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 9:09:45 AM UTC-4, wrote:
jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. " I'm sure these companies have some ethics guiding their conduct. That said, this business is not about the people who regularly converse here - it's about the artists, labels, and final product. Of those posters on rec.audio.pro who are engineers(mixing, mastering, etc), it is not their product. They are there to fulfill the client's wishes I see, their customer demand only Adobe products. Nonsense. Back a couple decades ago, right here in usenet, while Photoshop people were scratching their heads, I PLEASED the customer within a 1/2 period, with GIMP. Even sent a proof. It's not software that makes people great. Made a fast $50 :-) Jack , even if it makes their ears bleed, or goes against every grain of their conscience! Got it now, Jack? |
#17
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 1:29:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 17, 2017 at 9:09:45 AM UTC-4, wrote: jjaj wrote: "I don't know why you people support these ugly companies who have no morals. " I'm sure these companies have some ethics guiding their conduct. That said, this business is not about the people who regularly converse here - it's about the artists, labels, and final product. Of those posters on rec.audio.pro who are engineers(mixing, mastering, etc), it is not their product. They are there to fulfill the client's wishes I see, their customer demand only Adobe products. Nonsense. Back a couple decades ago, right here in usenet, while Photoshop people were scratching their heads, I PLEASED the customer within a 1/2 period, with GIMP. Even sent a proof. It's not software that makes people great. Made a fast $50 :-) Jack , even if it makes their ears bleed, or goes against every grain of their conscience! Got it now, Jack? PDFTT |
#18
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
mako wrote: "PDFTT"
Who you calling a "troll". I just described to Jjack how the recording business works, and you're here calling people trolls? Guess someone touched a nerve, eh Mako? |
#19
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT" Who you calling a "troll". I just described to Jjack how the recording business works, and you're here calling people trolls? Well, it's pretty clear that Jack is a troll and explaining anything to him is completely futile. I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. Guess someone touched a nerve, eh Mako? I think Mako is just tired of the poor S/N these days. Can you blame him? --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#20
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:52:44 AM UTC-4, wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT" Who you calling a "troll". I just described to Jjack how the recording business works, and you're here calling people trolls? Guess someone touched a nerve, eh Mako? I could care less about deplorables that claim I'm a "troll". They each know I can kick the audio behinds. They CLAIM to be Pros, but all Amateurs. Why I receive no straight answers, just guesses. Have to answer my own questions. They fear posting any audio THEY did. We got rid of Hank, he was a BITC*. Jack |
#21
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 2:26:17 PM UTC-4, Scott Dorsey wrote:
wrote: mako wrote: "PDFTT" Who you calling a "troll". I just described to Jjack how the recording business works, and you're here calling people trolls? Well, it's pretty clear that Jack is a troll and explaining anything to him is completely futile. I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. Guess someone touched a nerve, eh Mako? I think Mako is just tired of the poor S/N these days. Can you blame him? He can't use a kill filter? Funny, I THOUGHT he was an intelligent "engineer". Jack --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
#22
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:52:44 AM UTC-4, wrote:
mako wrote: "PDFTT" Who you calling a "troll". I just described to Jjack how the recording business works, and you're here calling people trolls? Guess someone touched a nerve, eh Mako? No, it was something I wrote about the presidential election that Mark didn't like, and he quickly tagged me a troll. Someone cross-posting was pushing Bernie Sanders (Senator whose wife was busted for bank fraud) crap. Even then, I was tagged a NAZI. Other than that, no proof that we argued, no name calling. Jack |
#23
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
jjaj:
I voted for Sanders in the primary last year. If they ran Sanders against Trump it would have been the most lopsided popular vote(and electoral college) in U.S. history! Trump would have ZERO chance against Bernie. |
#24
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Scott Dorsey wrote: "I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear
that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. " What goes on... you mean the politics? Clueless there. All I know is that it's what the artist, producer, or label wants, not the engineer. Same with the DOT: If the state wants to reroute an eight-lane highway over a suburban neighborhood, the engineer's job is to argue with the governor about how impractical it seems; his job is make sure that overpass uses as few columns as possible while still ensuring the thing won't collapse or look ugly. I do know how to get signal through a board and into a recorder at the appropriate levels, if that's what you mean by 'clueless.' |
#25
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:27:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Scott Dorsey wrote: "I don't think you're a troll. I think you're sincere. But it's pretty clear that you have no more understanding what actually goes on in the studio than Jack does. So it is a matter of the blind leading the blind. " What goes on... you mean the politics? Clueless there. All I know is that it's what the artist, producer, or label wants, not the engineer. Same with the DOT: If the state wants to reroute an eight-lane highway over a suburban neighborhood, the engineer's job is to argue with the governor about how impractical it seems; his job is make sure that overpass uses as few columns as possible while still ensuring the thing won't collapse or look ugly. I do know how to get signal through a board and into a recorder at the appropriate levels, if that's what you mean by 'clueless.' Scott immediately didn't like me, maybe because I could see right through him. I guess he's some Pro who sits around to answer questions in usenet, rather than aid any, ahem, customers. Scott claimed there is no such thing as varying DC offset, yet Goldwave offers something to correct it. Scott hinted about mastering quirks, but a defunct site gave me inside information about the cause of what I seen in early CD waveforms, two (popular) Sony PCM machines were responsible. I have yet heard some CD where I'd claim a DAC was the cause of bad sound (though Scott will), but I'd quickly claim foul sounding tapes were the actual cause. Look at Scott, someone rips a vinyl LP (posted on YouTube), and he ****es in the poster's face. Nice? No. However, that is typical of the mentality. If Scott were decent, he's download the LP rip, enhance it, and state what he believes sounds better. But, no, he's quick to criticize others. Look, I can take the 3kHz shots, I think they're funny, but, hey, I had to know why I favored that particular band of frequency. Neil Young's Pono criticism gained me that knowledge. Now, where is the foul mouthed attack dog named, None? Get run over? Can't resist a fire hydrant? :-) Jack |
#26
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
On Thursday, May 18, 2017 at 8:18:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
jjaj: I voted for Sanders in the primary last year. If they ran Sanders against Trump it would have been the most lopsided popular vote(and electoral college) in U.S. history! Trump would have ZERO chance against Bernie. Too OT for this group, but I appreciate you being honest. One last thing, let's use the poster, "None" as an example. Scott claims Mark doesn't enjoy static in this group. But they seem to enjoy None's foul mouth, that DOES damage usenet groups. Yet, I'm the "troll", but I have yet seen Scott Dorsey, Mike Rivers or Mark saying ANYTHING negative about None. Go figure. Jack |
#27
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
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#29
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
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#30
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
geoff wrote: "Everybody can safely simply ignore None's rants,"
Or, keep it on their killfile list, as I suspect many do. "as his posts do not spread false information to uninformed readers who might otherwise be led astray on technical or musical topics. geoff" Yes, but they do crash good threads and quell good converation. Aside geoff: Can you provide examples of alleged "false information"? |
#31
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
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#32
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
geoff2:
On 19/05/2017 11:02 PM, wrote: geoff wrote: "Everybody can safely simply ignore None's rants," Aside geoff: Can you provide examples of alleged "false information"? Pretty much everything JackAss says is demonstrably factually wrong, with a consistency that could only be deliberate. Nobody could be *that* stupid, except one yank Donald (not a duck) maybe. Does "false information" actually still exist? IsnĀ“t called "alternative facts/post facts" nowadays? Please, feed neither troll, everybody... |
#33
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Phil W wrote: "Please, feed neither troll, everybody... "
You know what calling someone else a 'troll' makes you, don't you? |
#34
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Yet, you PROS who only appreciate money, not music, drove people back to vinyl, from CD, because YOU thought it sounded GOOD. I do hope you are proud of YOUR acomplishment!
Jack |
#35
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Randy, who used hang out here, challenged me, but his HQ format FLAC. file contained tape hiss noise, because the single version master tape is spent! Sony Music will publish anything for a buck.
Jack |
#36
Posted to rec.audio.pro
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XY-MS what happened to the room ambience?
Ask the maggots behind FAKE NEWS radio. Just because they wish to destroy a civilzation, I don't care to join in.
Jack |
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