In article writes:

I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it. For instantaneous readout,
though, I hear ya. Needles are friendlier to the eye.

You gotta see it work before you can make that decision for real. You
don't get to design it, you take what they give you. IMHO, the digital
numbers change too fast to give you a good sense of what's really
happening. That's too much attention to devote to a meter when you
should be mixing, though it might be more useful when checking
frequency response of a room using warble tones or 1/3- or octave-band
pink noise.

Have the best of both worlds - get both. It's still less than $75,
even when not on sale.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 10:06:27 -0400, "Tommy Bowen"
wrote:


"Bob Cain" wrote
James Boyk wrote:

Much easier to track what's happening & get a sense of the average via a
moving needle than via numbers.


I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it.

Not me. The number you see is some type of interpolated average, it's
never what's really going on. How do they come up with the avearage?
That's the problem, you don't know. And you are guaranteed just by the way
they work that transients and spikes are gonna be shown wrong. It's the
same reason that digital voltmeters are useless on signals that bounce
around a lot. You must have analog to see what's happening.

-Tommy


Unless you have a specification for the dynamic response of a meter
needle, and a complementary knowledge of the transient characteristics
of the sound, then you are absolutely no better off with an analogue
meter than a digital one. They both have a dynamic response that is
hidden from you. Of course with a purely digital meter you are far
better positioned to have something you can actually characterise in
some meaningful way.

Spikes will be shown "wrong" (whatever that means) on both types of
meter. Choose which you like on the basis of convenience. If you are
characterising a room with pink noise or pure tones in multiple
positions, then the digital meter is going to be far easier to use -
just write down the numbers. If you are monitoring sound levels in a
dynamic environment, then go for the analogue.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

"Don Pearce" wrote

If you are
characterising a room with pink noise or pure tones in multiple
positions, then the digital meter is going to be far easier to use -
just write down the numbers.

I don't why it would be far easier. Analog meters have numbers, too.
Just write them down as well.

If you are monitoring sound levels in a
dynamic environment, then go for the analogue.

Well, that's almost always what I'm using mine for, so maybe that's why
I prefer it. I still think the analogy of the analog/digital voltmeters is
relevant. If you have even a moderately varying signal coming in, a digital
voltmeter is totally useless. If it's reasonably stable, analog or digital
will work just fine.

- Tommy

I've got one of the digital RS meters and it has an analog
scale bar graph on the bottom of the LCD as well as digits
just like my fluke DVM. Works well for me...

--
AudioGaff


"Mike Rivers" wrote in message
news:znr1058013574k@trad...
. IMHO, the digital
numbers change too fast to give you a good sense of what's really
happening. That's too much attention to devote to a meter when you
should be mixing, though it might be more useful when checking
frequency response of a room using warble tones or 1/3- or octave-band
pink noise.

Tommy wrote

If you are
characterising a room with pink noise or pure tones in multiple
positions, then the digital meter is going to be far easier to use -
just write down the numbers.

I don't why it would be far easier. Analog meters have numbers, too.
Just write them down as well

It possibly the same reason people prefer digital watches and calculators, it's
too hard or requires too much knowledge and expertise to read the analogue
devices.

It just simply blows me away that some people can't make change without a
calculator or cash register. What happened to adding, subtraction and
multiplication tables?

Whatever :(

Wayne

Obviously the volume levels have been going up at all kinds of entertainment

venues.

A couple weeks ago we went to see "Winged Migration". This is a feature length
nature documentary on bird migrations. Very beautiful & highly recommended. But
it was ****ing deafening. I literally had to stuff kleenex in my ears to be
able to tolerate sitting in the theater. This is absolutely insanely stupid,
especially given that the audience consisted of about 10 other middle aged
adults.

What ever happened to OSHA? Oh, right...

They're out working hard to protect the rights of industry to provide dangerous
work environments for American labor.



Scott Fraser

Years back, we played a club that had a system that shut off stage power if
the
sound level exceeded some arbitrary limit. While a good idea in theory, in
practice it sucked.

A more sensible system is that used at a performing arts center in Sun City,
Arizona that basically has an audience of retirees. The house sound guy sits at
the console with the guest engineer. He has an SPL meter in one hand & his
other hand on the output gain of a DBX160 limiter on the system. Go over 95db &
he cranks you down. When I mixed a Mel Torme/big band tour there the applause
was consistently 5 to 10db louder than my mix. The house management was very
pleased.


Scott Fraser

Bob Cain wrote:
James Boyk wrote:

Much easier to track what's happening & get a sense of the average via a
moving needle than via numbers.

I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it. For instantaneous readout,
though, I hear ya. Needles are friendlier to the eye.

Try both... I find the digital readout impossible to use unless you have
a constant signal. Otherwise the display is constantly bouncing around.
Even worse than a digital speedometer. On musical signals it seems utterly
worthless but give it a try and see if you don't agree. They'll let you
play with them in the store.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:

Bob Cain wrote:
James Boyk wrote:

Much easier to track what's happening & get a sense of the average via a
moving needle than via numbers.

I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it. For instantaneous readout,
though, I hear ya. Needles are friendlier to the eye.

Try both... I find the digital readout impossible to use unless you have
a constant signal. Otherwise the display is constantly bouncing around.
Even worse than a digital speedometer. On musical signals it seems utterly
worthless but give it a try and see if you don't agree. They'll let you
play with them in the store.
--scott

For casual monitoring of sound levels, I like the analog meter, as I've got
84dB marked with a bit of tape. ( 84 dBa is the threshold for damaging
noise that I was trained for when I was in the navy running the hearing
conservation program on my ship. )

Apropos of this discussion, I ran across this web page that showed the
worlds largest VU meter, which I though folks here would appreciate.
It was, of course, at MIT.

--Dale
http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/1...bldg_vu_meter/

In article znr1058013574k@trad, wrote:

In article
writes:

I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it. For instantaneous readout,
though, I hear ya. Needles are friendlier to the eye.

You gotta see it work before you can make that decision for real. You
don't get to design it, you take what they give you. IMHO, the digital
numbers change too fast to give you a good sense of what's really
happening. That's too much attention to devote to a meter when you

Digital just doesn't tell you enough. I suppose the digital unit also has an output like the analog
unit. Connect it to an oscilloscope and I got eveything I need to know.

greg

Bob Cain wrote:

James Boyk wrote:

Right; and the one to get is the "analog-display."

Other than it being the one on sale, why is that? The
digital meter has nice features like peak or average
measurement.

I find those types of options nice when reviewing information
statically, i.e., after the fact of capture. I don't like watching a
numerical display never come to rest when reading data in realtime,
compared to watching a meter needle wave around. In the realtime case, I
need a good ballpark, and I'll do the "averaging" myself.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:

Bob Cain wrote:

Other than it being the one on sale, why is that? The
digital meter has nice features like peak or average
measurement.

Analog sounds better.

j

You will now be taken out and shot.

/j

--
ha

David Morgan (MAMS) wrote:

Did more than a few shows with Uncle Walt. Have you seen Champ's son play
the fiddle? ...Got a great little group called the "South Austin Jug
Band".

Yeah, Warren is damn good and a great guy, too. Met him and heard the
SAJB at Threadgill's last year, and saw him again this year at Antone's
big Monday night when Clifford finally got off of federal probabtion and
could actually go to his own joint. Was quite a night.

Warren went to Berklee last year and this summer has been in Austin with
some young bluegrass pals of his from school, tearing it up and drawing
sizeable crowds.

(This last trip to Austin got the pressingly urgent biz stuff out of the
way, so I'm again aiming to see you, Harvey and some other TX outlanders
next trip(s) later this year. Be there in December for sure.)

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

"Mike Rivers" wrote in message news:znr1058013574k@trad...

In article writes:

I dunno, I'd rather see a numerically integrated or captured
result than "get a sense" of it. For instantaneous readout,
though, I hear ya. Needles are friendlier to the eye.

You gotta see it work before you can make that decision for real. You
don't get to design it, you take what they give you. IMHO, the digital
numbers change too fast to give you a good sense of what's really
happening. That's too much attention to devote to a meter when you
should be mixing, though it might be more useful when checking
frequency response of a room using warble tones or 1/3- or octave-band
pink noise.

Have the best of both worlds - get both. It's still less than $75,
even when not on sale.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

I tested them both on some music at the Shack on Saturday. Definitely
picked up the analogue meter to add to the kit. I used it to check my
levels in church on Sunday. The main source of energy behind the
plexiglass was near the rhythm section - more monitors and live amps -
Sound there was around 100dB on the average. The vocalist's hot spots
showed surges of 102 to 104 from 6 feet back. The FOH, measured from
25 feet in front of each of the mains, averaged about 82 to 86 dB. The
FOH from the mix position was in the low 70's... all "A" weighted.
Interesting.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com

In article writes:

Digital just doesn't tell you enough. I suppose the digital unit also has an
output like the analog
unit. Connect it to an oscilloscope and I got eveything I need to know.

Not me. A scope will tell you what the waveform looks like and you can
measure peak amplitudes, but that doesn't relate very well to how loud
it sounds. A meter is really the correct device for this. An
oscilloscope has plenty of good uses, but measuring SPL isn't one of
them.

And if you just want to look at the output of a microphone on a scope,
you don't need a sound pressure level meter.



--
I'm really Mike Rivers - )

"LeBaron & Alrich" wrote ...

Around here an RS store is part of either a hardware store or an auto
parts store.

Gotcha. You have those stupid "Radio Shack Dealer" things. We have one
of those, but they're just ridiculous. If you go to a regular RS, you'll
probably score. At least on the meters. I wouldn't be surprised if the
splicing stuff gets torpedoed everywhere sometime soon.
The "Radio Shack Dealer" here is actually a tire store. They don't
carry anything electronic and can order even less. You're more likely to
find electronic stuff at a 7-11 than these places.

- Tommy

James Boyk wrote:

Mike Rivers wrote:

Seems like I've heard of a venue/producer who allowed some fireworks
on stage that resulted in a lot of injuries and a few deaths. And I
think I recall an accident with lasers at a light show. But of course
these things shouldn't happen.

And when they do, they no doubt give rise to liability claims and
lawsuits because people are outraged that they or their near & dear were
injured. But why---WHY?---don't we regard our sense of hearing the same way?

Because due to the way we work, we don't notice it properly until it's
way too late, unless we are well trained in advance. Trying to talk to
folks technically doesn't often seem to work, IME. So I've been coming
up with different ways to try to get the point across, and the one
that's gettign results so far is to compare what happens to our hearing
sensitivity to the development of callouses on our hands. Callouses
somewhat reduce tactile sensitivity and most folks have done enough
manual labor somewhere along their path to be able to relate to that. So
I tell them to realize that the ear develops callouses _almost
immediately_ when confronted with "abrasive" sound, i.e., too loud, and
that the resulting reduction of sensitivity prevents them from realizing
just how loud the sound really is. More laypeople seem to get that
concept than any other I've been able to think up.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
Mike Rivers wrote:

In article writes:

Casio or Neutrik or someone should make a wrist watch with a digital SPL
meter built in.

Kind of like a nuclear radiation dosimeter?

Radio Shack has the analog-meter SPL meter on sale now. For $25, it
should be your "next condenser microphone" (and it DOES have an output
jack).

So I called the RS dealer in Quincy CA, my localist RS, and they can't
find that meter anywhere in their reference material. I want one. How'd
you find out about it?

An out of the blue question for you Hank, since you live near Quincy:

I was down there a few weekends ago for High Sierra...

You have any info on the car accident on 70 in the Feather River canyon? As
we were leaving Quincy, about 7pm on sunday evening (July 6) we were passed
by several ambulances. Turned out a car had gone off hte road, fell what
looked like 50+ feet to the river and was in the middle of the river on its
roof, partially submerged. Several ambulances, a fire truck, and a chopper
were there. I'm just wondering what the hell happened...


---
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

RA2-4-D15
phone: 971-214-8380

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's

Aaron C Borgman wrote:

An out of the blue question for you Hank, since you live near Quincy:

'deed i do.

I was down there a few weekends ago for High Sierra...

So how'd you like the festival?

You have any info on the car accident on 70 in the Feather River canyon? As
we were leaving Quincy, about 7pm on sunday evening (July 6) we were passed
by several ambulances. Turned out a car had gone off hte road, fell what
looked like 50+ feet to the river and was in the middle of the river on its
roof, partially submerged. Several ambulances, a fire truck, and a chopper
were there. I'm just wondering what the hell happened...

Passengers were recovered alive with minor injuries, amazingly. When my
son saw the photos in the local paper he commented that he would not
have wanted to take _that_ ride.

However, on the 4th, a guy drank ten beers and left his buds playing
poker to take a swim in Antelope Lake. He fell down on the way to the
water, sat there for a while, then went into the lake and headed out,
swimming on his back. Small waves from a passing boat washed over him
and he sank and drowned. Hint: ten beers and swimming at high altitude
is not a smart combination. I heard lots of sirens, as I was in
Taylorsville jamming at a party with friends.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

James Boyk wrote:

great idea.... i would add that callouses on our hands go away when we
don't need them any more; but the metaphorical ones on our ears are forever.

Yep, and I tell them that, too. Great feeling when someone gets it
enough to make changes in the way the listen, both to music and in
general.

--
hank alrich * secret mountain
audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
"If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"

On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 15:46:07 GMT, "David Morgan \(MAMS\)"
wrote:

I used it to check my
levels in church on Sunday. The main source of energy behind the
plexiglass was near the rhythm section - more monitors and live amps -
Sound there was around 100dB on the average. The vocalist's hot spots
showed surges of 102 to 104 from 6 feet back.

Gonna be a lotta deaf Christians in a few years. . .

The FOH, measured from
25 feet in front of each of the mains, averaged about 82 to 86 dB. The
FOH from the mix position was in the low 70's... all "A" weighted.
Interesting.

--
David Morgan (MAMS)
http://www.m-a-m-s.com
http://www.artisan-recordingstudio.com



Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/~wkyee
Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.org

LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
Aaron C Borgman wrote:

An out of the blue question for you Hank, since you live near Quincy:

'deed i do.

I was down there a few weekends ago for High Sierra...

So how'd you like the festival?

It was a lot of fun.

You have any info on the car accident on 70 in the Feather River canyon? As
we were leaving Quincy, about 7pm on sunday evening (July 6) we were passed
by several ambulances. Turned out a car had gone off hte road, fell what
looked like 50+ feet to the river and was in the middle of the river on its
roof, partially submerged. Several ambulances, a fire truck, and a chopper
were there. I'm just wondering what the hell happened...

Passengers were recovered alive with minor injuries, amazingly. When my
son saw the photos in the local paper he commented that he would not
have wanted to take _that_ ride.

Amazing... the crash looked pretty horrific. I'm amazed everyone survived.


However, on the 4th, a guy drank ten beers and left his buds playing
poker to take a swim in Antelope Lake. He fell down on the way to the
water, sat there for a while, then went into the lake and headed out,
swimming on his back. Small waves from a passing boat washed over him
and he sank and drowned. Hint: ten beers and swimming at high altitude
is not a smart combination. I heard lots of sirens, as I was in
Taylorsville jamming at a party with friends.

Now that is just stupid...

--
Aaron Borgman HE Design Engineer

RA2-4-D15
phone: 971-214-8380

Disclaimer: All above opinions are mine... not Intel's