[24]

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.
I would like to convert my vynil records into a obviously a very good way to
do so is through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly to my
computer's soundcard. Sure you can go from turntable to amp to computer but
that's not the purpose for this post.
Can someone perhaps share some information on which digital turntable
they're using and if they are happy with the result? Many thanks in advance!

[Scott Dorsey]

24 wrote:
I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.
I would like to convert my vynil records into a obviously a very good way to
do so is through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly to my
computer's soundcard. Sure you can go from turntable to amp to computer but
that's not the purpose for this post.

Can someone perhaps share some information on which digital turntable
they're using and if they are happy with the result? Many thanks in advance!

All of the "digital turntables" I have seen were just godawful crap. None
of them had good physical transports, none of them had good preamps, and
none of them had a good A/D. Just stay away from this trash and buy a
decent turntable.

If you care about your records you should care enough to do the job right.
That means NO trashy direct drive turntables with cheapo MM cartridges.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Arny Krueger]

"24" wrote in message


I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a
digital turntable. I would like to convert my vinyl
records into a obviously a very good way to do so is
through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly
to my computer's soundcard.

Actually, there is low-priced but questionable quality hardware that
dispenses with the need for a sound card. It hooks right up to a USB port on
your computer. The problem is not the idea, the problem is the quality of
the components, particularly the turntable, arm, and cartridge.

The traditional means for converting vinyl to digital involves a good
quality turntable, arm, cartridge, preamp, and audio interface. This gives
you control over many parameters, instead of taking a pig in a poke with a
one-box solution built to sell for a relatively low price.

Sure you can go from turntable to amp to computer but that's not the
purpose for this post.

So far I know of no instances where someone has provided a one-box solution
that included a turntable, arm, cartridge, preamp and audio interface with
good reputations. Not that it couldn't be done, just that nobody has done it
yet.

[hank alrich]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

24 wrote:
I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.
I would like to convert my vynil records into a obviously a very good way to
do so is through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly to my
computer's soundcard. Sure you can go from turntable to amp to computer but
that's not the purpose for this post.

Can someone perhaps share some information on which digital turntable
they're using and if they are happy with the result? Many thanks in advance!

All of the "digital turntables" I have seen were just godawful crap. None
of them had good physical transports, none of them had good preamps, and
none of them had a good A/D. Just stay away from this trash and buy a
decent turntable.

If you care about your records you should care enough to do the job right.
That means NO trashy direct drive turntables with cheapo MM cartridges.

When you think of the time it takes to do this work rightly, buying
garbage just isn't worth your life.

--
ha

[Adrian Tuddenham]

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Powell]

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people
who own a digital turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as
though you have to spin it with your finger.

Like this:

NUMARK TTUSB Turntable with USB Interface
http://www.numark.com/

Audio Technica AT-LP2D LP-to-Digital Recording System
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/tu...496/index.html

Ion iTTUSB Turntable with USB Recor
http://www.ionaudio.com/index.asp?Pa...PROD&ProdID=47

[hank alrich]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

Right, and then with the other hand you stick a fingernail into the
groove and away you go. This is a very direct way of listening.

--
ha

[Chris Edwards]

I'm using a Technics SL1300 with a Stanton 681EEE, into a Yamaha receiver,
then using "tape out" into an SB Audigy "Live Drive". Which would be the
best to upgrade first for vinyl restoration?

"Scott Dorsey" wrote in message
...
24 wrote:
I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital
turntable.
I would like to convert my vynil records into a obviously a very good way
to
do so is through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly to my
computer's soundcard. Sure you can go from turntable to amp to computer
but
that's not the purpose for this post.

Can someone perhaps share some information on which digital turntable
they're using and if they are happy with the result? Many thanks in
advance!

All of the "digital turntables" I have seen were just godawful crap. None
of them had good physical transports, none of them had good preamps, and
none of them had a good A/D. Just stay away from this trash and buy a
decent turntable.

If you care about your records you should care enough to do the job right.
That means NO trashy direct drive turntables with cheapo MM cartridges.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Powell wrote:

"Adrian Tuddenham" wrote

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people
who own a digital turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as
though you have to spin it with your finger.

Like this:

NUMARK TTUSB Turntable with USB Interface
http://www.numark.com/

Audio Technica AT-LP2D LP-to-Digital Recording System
http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/tu...496/index.html

Ion iTTUSB Turntable with USB Recor
http://www.ionaudio.com/index.asp?Pa...PROD&ProdID=47

I'm pleased to say I knew nothing about them. I don't think I'd be
tempted to use one.

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Adrian Tuddenham]

hank alrich wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital
turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

Right, and then with the other hand you stick a fingernail into the
groove and away you go. This is a very direct way of listening.

Were at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by any
chance ?

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Adrian Tuddenham]

hank alrich wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital
turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

Right, and then with the other hand you stick a fingernail into the
groove and away you go. This is a very direct way of listening.

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any
chance ?

--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Mike Rivers]

24 wrote:
I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital turntable.
I would like to convert my vynil records into a obviously a very good way to
do so is through a digital turntable which I can hookup directly to my
computer's soundcard.

It's certainly a convenient way, but not ncesssarily a very good one.
The current market has a pretty good choice of mediocre turntables with
a built-in cartridge preamp, A/D converter and USB interface (most
likely all on a single chip, but I've never opened one to see for
sure). They solve the problem that you have - lots of records and no
turntable.

How good it is for you depends on what level of quality you want. You
can probably do just as good a job with a thrift shop turntable and
stereo receiver connected to a built-in computer sound card. The only
real advantage of buying a new turntable is that you'll get a new
(unworn) stylus.

If you just want to do transfers that are no worse than playing the
record on the mediocre turntable that you may have had years ago,
consider the pool of "digital" turntables to be like inexpensive
Chinese mics - they solve a problem of "I don't have" but aren't real
jewels. If you want to make your records sound better than they ever
did, you have to start with a quality turntable and a good cartridge,
set up properly, a decent phono preamp, good A/D converter, and some
care in setting levels. Oh, and clean records.

This is all a much bigger pain in the butt than most people realize.
Think before you spend any money. If you have half a dozen records that
you think you might want to listen to several times if they were on CD
or in some other digital format, then find a local person who has a
turntable, bring over your records and a pizza, and enjoy an evening of
listening to old music while making transfers (and perhaps a new
friend). If you think you'd just like to just hear records from your
collection again occasionally, buy a turntable and set it up, then just
play the records. You've probably worn them all that they're going to
wear. And you'll enjoy the artwork on the jackets and you'll be able to
read the notes.

Or something in between.

[Mike Rivers]

Chris Edwards wrote:
I'm using a Technics SL1300 with a Stanton 681EEE, into a Yamaha receiver,
then using "tape out" into an SB Audigy "Live Drive". Which would be the
best to upgrade first for vinyl restoration?

Probably a better A/D converter (if your Audigy has a digital input) or
a better sound card. I'm not sure where the SL1300 fits into the scheme
of things. You could probalby use a better cartridge, too, if you want
the best fidelity. The 681EEE is a decent all-around cartridge, but
there are better playing cartridges if you want to get all the music
off the grooves.

I guess that's more than one upgrade. But then "restoration" covers a
lot of ground. Once you get a good digital transfer, then you'll need
to start looking at software, and developing your restoration skills.
And then you'll probably want a better turntable.

If you just want to dub your records to your iPod so you can listen to
them while you're on your morning run, keep on doing what you're doing.

[Edi Zubovic]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:19:18 +0100, lid
(Adrian Tuddenham) wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital
turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

Right, and then with the other hand you stick a fingernail into the
groove and away you go. This is a very direct way of listening.

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any
chance ?

-- Hehheh...! And not to be played with a "needle" but by a sapphire
ballpoint...

....And those records spinning inside out...

I had a little luck when I was able to more or less correctly transfer
some of hill-and-dale Electra records, mid-twenties. These Electras
are "Disque Saphir", others are "Disque Aiguille", verticals for
sapphire ballpoint, laterals for "the Needle".

Definitely not for any and all of the "Digital Turntables" existing
today.


Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Edi Zubovic wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 10:19:18 +0100, lid
(Adrian Tuddenham) wrote:

hank alrich wrote:

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

24 wrote:

I'm looking for feedback or reviews from people who own a digital
turntable.

What on earth is a digital turntable? It sounds as though you have to
spin it with your finger.

Right, and then with the other hand you stick a fingernail into the
groove and away you go. This is a very direct way of listening.

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any
chance ?

-- Hehheh...! And not to be played with a "needle" but by a sapphire
ballpoint...

...And those records spinning inside out...

I'm waiting for someone to come along with an anti-clockwise rotating
record, I've got a reversible turntable all set up and waiting for it.
(Actually it is useful for recovering the sound from jumped grooves by
creeping up on them from behind)


I had a little luck when I was able to more or less correctly transfer
some of hill-and-dale Electra records, mid-twenties. These Electras
are "Disque Saphir", others are "Disque Aiguille", verticals for
sapphire ballpoint, laterals for "the Needle".

With a modern lightweight cartridge and good compliance, the actual
diameter of the stylus tip for a "U"-bottomed groove with vertical
modulation is far less critical than for a lateral groove. The only
real advantage of the larger tip, in these circumstances, is sometimes a
slight reduction in noise because it spans some of the damage marks in
the groove bottom. On an undamaged copy, you can play the disc with
almost any sized stylus you like.

By the way, had you realised that the 90rpm speed of Pathés was chosen
to be half the 180rpm standard of the cylinders they were dubbed from?
The bigger and even faster 'Ice Rink' discs gave the same playing time
but used wider grooves, allowing higher soundbox pressures on a bigger
playback stylus without any increase in wear. The higher playing weight
permitted a greater slew-rate and louder modulation without loss of
groove contact.


Definitely not for any and all of the "Digital Turntables" existing
today.

I would be interested to read their specifications, but I doubt if any
exist.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Scott Dorsey]

Chris Edwards wrote:
I'm using a Technics SL1300 with a Stanton 681EEE, into a Yamaha receiver,
then using "tape out" into an SB Audigy "Live Drive". Which would be the
best to upgrade first for vinyl restoration?

Hmm...

My first thought would be upgrade the cartridge.... the 681EE actually is
not bad at all tonally, but it's not very good for tracking worn records
and it isn't very detailed. It also has poor stereo imaging.

The problem is that if you upgrade the cartridge _first_, when you later
go and upgrade the turntable you're going to have to be looking for something
with an arm that matches the cartridge you have well.

I might suggest something like the AT440... it's a fineline, so it tracks
very well, but you'll want an arm with adjustable VTA to get the best stereo
separation from it. It's okay on a wide range of arms, and it is pretty high
output so you could get away with a poor preamp.

Keep the 681EE, though. It's a great choice for 78s and other wide groove
stuff where the stereo imaging isn't important.

The thing about the Technics is that you can actually get some decent money
for it on Ebay. You could get an entry-level belt-driven table like the
Thorens TD126, or the bottom of the line Music Hall or Rega tables used
for not much more than you could sell the Technics for used. So I might
suggest doing that, too.

As far as upgrading the preamp goes, I think the main reason you'd want
to do that is so you can use better cartridges that may require more careful
loading and more gain. Paul Stamler has previously recommended a black box
preamp for around $150 around here that ought to be a huge step up from
the preamp section in a consumer receiver.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any chance ?

That's 210 feet per second on the outer edge, nearly 150 mph. Did you have
a cage over it or did everyone in the audience get safety glasses?
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Scott Dorsey]

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any chance ?

That's 210 feet per second on the outer edge, nearly 150 mph. Did you have
a cage over it or did everyone in the audience get safety glasses?

No, wait, that's only 210 feet per minute... but still a lot faster than
walking speed... I can't do this stuff in my head in the morning any more.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[Richard Crowley]

"I. Care" wrote ...
How about a USB turntable?

How is that different from what is already being discussed?

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Scott Dorsey wrote:

In article ,
Scott Dorsey wrote:
Adrian Tuddenham wrote:

Were you at my demonstration of how to play a 14"dia 120rpm Pathé, by
any chance ?

That's 210 feet per second on the outer edge, nearly 150 mph. Did you have
a cage over it or did everyone in the audience get safety glasses?

No, wait, that's only 210 feet per minute... but still a lot faster than
walking speed... I can't do this stuff in my head in the morning any more.

You had me grabbing for the calculator until I noticed this correction.

It certainly was pretty fast, but the original replay stylus would have
been massive in order to spread the pressure of the soundbox; so a high
speed was needed to get any kind of HF* response.


* In this context, 'HF' = 2Kc/s upwards.


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[Edi Zubovic]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:17:11 +0100, lid
(Adrian Tuddenham) wrote:
----------------------8------------------------
...And those records spinning inside out...

I'm waiting for someone to come along with an anti-clockwise rotating
record, I've got a reversible turntable all set up and waiting for it.
(Actually it is useful for recovering the sound from jumped grooves by
creeping up on them from behind)

-- Recently, a collector said he'd got a few. I'll ask him about, it
may be interesting to me.

I had a little luck when I was able to more or less correctly transfer
some of hill-and-dale Electra records, mid-twenties. These Electras
are "Disque Saphir", others are "Disque Aiguille", verticals for
sapphire ballpoint, laterals for "the Needle".

With a modern lightweight cartridge and good compliance, the actual
diameter of the stylus tip for a "U"-bottomed groove with vertical
modulation is far less critical than for a lateral groove. The only
real advantage of the larger tip, in these circumstances, is sometimes a
slight reduction in noise because it spans some of the damage marks in
the groove bottom. On an undamaged copy, you can play the disc with
almost any sized stylus you like.
--Yes, after a careful set-up, the recordings went OK. Of course,
reproduced "normally", the noise was horrible. But I kept the M/S
extract of course, and this is a much more pleasant story.

One record is also Michaelis' "Turkish Patrol". No performer has been
mentioned on the label and I guess it has been recorded around 1925.
BTW, I saw your Web pages, and I think I'll contact you for your
"Victory Bands" CD. Rare and nice music and a pleasant tone, I liked
the clips.


By the way, had you realised that the 90rpm speed of Pathés was chosen
to be half the 180rpm standard of the cylinders they were dubbed from?
The bigger and even faster 'Ice Rink' discs gave the same playing time
but used wider grooves, allowing higher soundbox pressures on a bigger
playback stylus without any increase in wear. The higher playing weight
permitted a greater slew-rate and louder modulation without loss of
groove contact.

-- I must admit, there's a plenty of news for me in your last
paragraph. I thought, 120 RPM was if not fastest spinning, but
certainly at the upper speed limit But 180 RPM? Wow.

Yes, at early Pathe you can find many a thing because they used to
experiment. I've heard of 0.5 meters dia. disks but I doubt one can
even find a picure of it.

"Ice Rink" records are complete news for me. I couldn't find a
description (or there are too many -- an ice rink is, well, an ice
rink


Definitely not for any and all of the "Digital Turntables" existing
today.

I would be interested to read their specifications, but I doubt if any
exist.


All the best,

Edi Zubovic, Crikvenica, Croatia

[Adrian Tuddenham]

Edi Zubovic wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:17:11 +0100, lid
(Adrian Tuddenham) wrote:
----------------------8------------------------
...And those records spinning inside out...

I'm waiting for someone to come along with an anti-clockwise rotating
record, I've got a reversible turntable all set up and waiting for it.
(Actually it is useful for recovering the sound from jumped grooves by
creeping up on them from behind)

-- Recently, a collector said he'd got a few. I'll ask him about, it
may be interesting to me.

I'll bet they just turn out to be centre-start discs. I've never heard
of an anticlockwise one - or any machine to make or play them.


I had a little luck when I was able to more or less correctly transfer
some of hill-and-dale Electra records, mid-twenties. These Electras
are "Disque Saphir", others are "Disque Aiguille", verticals for
sapphire ballpoint, laterals for "the Needle".

With a modern lightweight cartridge and good compliance, the actual
diameter of the stylus tip for a "U"-bottomed groove with vertical
modulation is far less critical than for a lateral groove. The only
real advantage of the larger tip, in these circumstances, is sometimes a
slight reduction in noise because it spans some of the damage marks in
the groove bottom. On an undamaged copy, you can play the disc with
almost any sized stylus you like.
--Yes, after a careful set-up, the recordings went OK. Of course,
reproduced "normally", the noise was horrible. But I kept the M/S
extract of course, and this is a much more pleasant story.

Yes, the preservation of a 'stereo' signal seems to have been neglected
by archivists. I suppose it is partly because there were no 3-track
archiving formats easily available (Left flat, Right flat, Mono
equalised). Most of the current multi-track stuff is probably
unsuitable for archiving because the very long-term recovery prospects
are poor.


One record is also Michaelis' "Turkish Patrol". No performer has been
mentioned on the label and I guess it has been recorded around 1925.

Very popular tune around that time - gets your feet moving.

BTW, I saw your Web pages, and I think I'll contact you for your
"Victory Bands" CD. Rare and nice music and a pleasant tone, I liked
the clips.

Glad you like it - a lot of time and hard work went into recovering
those recordings. We later found a picture of the recording lathe: it
looked like a cream-separator fitted with a cutterhead made from a Post
Office relay. I'm sure the studio was using just one moving coil mic
and one carbon mic on some of the sessions.

If you ever get the chance to listen to the soundtrack of some of the
British wartime newsreels, you will hear almost exactly the same style
of orchestra., It wouldn't surprise me to find that George Cathie was
conducting the film studio orchestras during that period (and
orchestrating the scores).



By the way, had you realised that the 90rpm speed of Pathés was chosen
to be half the 180rpm standard of the cylinders they were dubbed from?
The bigger and even faster 'Ice Rink' discs gave the same playing time
but used wider grooves, allowing higher soundbox pressures on a bigger
playback stylus without any increase in wear. The higher playing weight
permitted a greater slew-rate and louder modulation without loss of
groove contact.

-- I must admit, there's a plenty of news for me in your last
paragraph. I thought, 120 RPM was if not fastest spinning, but
certainly at the upper speed limit But 180 RPM? Wow.

You can sometimes hear the surface noise of the cylinder and it is twice
the disc speed. You also sometimes hear it start or stop - on occasions
with a wow, or a 'reciprocal wow' if the recording disc stopped first.
This suggests that the disc and cylinder shafts were not always
irrevocably locked together.


Yes, at early Pathe you can find many a thing because they used to
experiment. I've heard of 0.5 meters dia. disks but I doubt one can
even find a picure of it.

I've seen some big ones (perhaps not *that* big) used as wall
decoration by collectors, but I'm told that everything recorded on them
is available on the more conventional sizes too

I was told by someone that the Pathé dubbing room was on the upper floor
of a building and the weights that powered the lathes were hung from
pulleys on cantilever brackets stuck out over the street below. At the
start of each morning and afternoon they were wound up by hand; then, as
the work progressed, they slowly descended towards the heads of the
unwary passers-by.

Pathé didn't use the Matrix - Mother - Stamper method, they plated one
stamper direct from each wax master disc and just kept dubbing new
master discs from a master cylinder. In one case, I have heard a disc
dubbed from a cracked master cylinder and the crack is faithfully
reproduced at a level nearly 30dB above peak modulation.

Now *that* was a trackability test for a Shure 44.



"Ice Rink" records are complete news for me. I couldn't find a
description (or there are too many -- an ice rink is, well, an ice
rink

They were extra loud, for playing in an ice rink instead of using an
orchestra. The copying 'pantograph' could increase the amplitude of the
cut to the master disc, but the disc and groove dimensions needed to be
correspondingly larger too. The playback machine must have been an
absolute giant!


--
~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

[[email protected]]

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

Chris Edwards wrote:

I'm using a Technics SL1300 with a Stanton 681EEE, into a Yamaha
receiver, then using "tape out" into an SB Audigy "Live Drive".
Which would be the best to upgrade first for vinyl restoration?

Hmm...

My first thought would be upgrade the cartridge.... the 681EE
actually is not bad at all tonally, but it's not very good for
tracking worn records and it isn't very detailed. It also has poor
stereo imaging.

....

How about FAQing this stuff. I have not been near a cartrige and arm
for ages, but I would like to get som of my LP back to being
listenable. Including an unplayed Missing Link II, and a Swan Lake
that has never made it to CD. A VERY tired one at that...


--
Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
+61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
West Australia 6076
comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.