Has anyone out there done the Dahlquist DQ-20 capacitor and coil upgrades
that Regnar supplies.
I was wondering if they are worth the money, and is the difference
noticable, and how?
Dave

"DMHenrie" wrote in message
...
Has anyone out there done the Dahlquist DQ-20 capacitor and coil upgrades
that Regnar supplies.
I was wondering if they are worth the money, and is the difference
noticable, and how?
Dave

So far as anybody has been able to objectively demonstrate, there is no such
thing as a performance upgrade from using more expensive caps and coils in
crossovers. As a sometime DIY speaker builder I can tell that this has been
my experience as well.

Another thing to consider is why would Dahlquist use parts that don't do
what they are supposed to do? How could they have gained a reputation as a
maker of fine speakers by using parts that didn't perform properly?

The values chosen and tested by the people who design and build speaker
systems are there precisely because they divide the frequencies as needed to
get the performance the manufacturer needed in order to get the performance
that they advertised.

If you really feel inquisitive and brave, and assuming you have the skill
required, get the parts that you think are an upgrade and construct the new
xover. Then disconnect the old one and using the speaker that still has the
original xover in place, find something to listen to that is recorded in
mono or just use one channel of a stereo recording and do a comparison. You
must match the spl level to within .1 dB and have someone switch between the
old and new versions without you knowing which one is which at any given
time.

If you don't feel qualified to do any of the above, just forget it. It's a
waste of time other than as a learning experience.

Yes you will find that components used in xovers don't always conform to the
standards that you might have been told you should look for, but they will
conform to the needs of the design. There are no magic caps and coils,
there are only caps and coils that do work in the design. If they work in
the design, they work as well as they possibly can.

Thanks, I was kind of under the same suspicions. I do know that over time
componnts, such as capacitors can breakdown over time. I am also awar that
over the past 15 years, technological improvments have been made to increase
efficiency and design. Regnar (for those who don't know), does most of the
Old Dahlquist business concerning repairs, etc since the original Dahlquist
is really no more. While I don't doubt that the crossovers could be upgraded
with new technology, I dont know if the cost of about $300 for the cap and
coil upgrades are worth the cost. As far as the comparison side by side, I
can't imagine myself paying for the components to build one crossover
(technically competent though I am), just for sheets and gigggles. And
probably with my 50 year old ears, couldn't tell the difference if there was
one. Not only do you have the spls to worry about, but the room acoustics
from one point to another could enhance or mask a difference. I also
suppose, that if there were other people on this group that HAS done this
upgrade for the $300+ dollars, of course they will say it was the best money
spent since they bought their last can of boston beans.
SO, I guess, why did I ask this at all? Hmmmm
Thanks

wrote in message
...
"DMHenrie" wrote in message
...
Has anyone out there done the Dahlquist DQ-20 capacitor and coil upgrades
that Regnar supplies.
I was wondering if they are worth the money, and is the difference
noticable, and how?
Dave

So far as anybody has been able to objectively demonstrate, there is no
such
thing as a performance upgrade from using more expensive caps and coils in
crossovers. As a sometime DIY speaker builder I can tell that this has
been
my experience as well.

Another thing to consider is why would Dahlquist use parts that don't do
what they are supposed to do? How could they have gained a reputation as
a
maker of fine speakers by using parts that didn't perform properly?

The values chosen and tested by the people who design and build speaker
systems are there precisely because they divide the frequencies as needed
to
get the performance the manufacturer needed in order to get the
performance
that they advertised.

If you really feel inquisitive and brave, and assuming you have the skill
required, get the parts that you think are an upgrade and construct the
new
xover. Then disconnect the old one and using the speaker that still has
the
original xover in place, find something to listen to that is recorded in
mono or just use one channel of a stereo recording and do a comparison.
You
must match the spl level to within .1 dB and have someone switch between
the
old and new versions without you knowing which one is which at any given
time.

If you don't feel qualified to do any of the above, just forget it. It's
a
waste of time other than as a learning experience.

Yes you will find that components used in xovers don't always conform to
the
standards that you might have been told you should look for, but they will
conform to the needs of the design. There are no magic caps and coils,
there are only caps and coils that do work in the design. If they work in
the design, they work as well as they possibly can.

wrote:

"DMHenrie" wrote in message
...

Has anyone out there done the Dahlquist DQ-20 capacitor and coil upgrades
that Regnar supplies.
I was wondering if they are worth the money, and is the difference
noticable, and how?
Dave


So far as anybody has been able to objectively demonstrate, there is no such
thing as a performance upgrade from using more expensive caps and coils in
crossovers. As a sometime DIY speaker builder I can tell that this has been
my experience as well.

Another thing to consider is why would Dahlquist use parts that don't do
what they are supposed to do? How could they have gained a reputation as a
maker of fine speakers by using parts that didn't perform properly?

The values chosen and tested by the people who design and build speaker
systems are there precisely because they divide the frequencies as needed to
get the performance the manufacturer needed in order to get the performance
that they advertised.

If you really feel inquisitive and brave, and assuming you have the skill
required, get the parts that you think are an upgrade and construct the new
xover. Then disconnect the old one and using the speaker that still has the
original xover in place, find something to listen to that is recorded in
mono or just use one channel of a stereo recording and do a comparison. You
must match the spl level to within .1 dB and have someone switch between the
old and new versions without you knowing which one is which at any given
time.

If you don't feel qualified to do any of the above, just forget it. It's a
waste of time other than as a learning experience.

Yes you will find that components used in xovers don't always conform to the
standards that you might have been told you should look for, but they will
conform to the needs of the design. There are no magic caps and coils,
there are only caps and coils that do work in the design. If they work in
the design, they work as well as they possibly can.


The above is questionable, but we can pass it off as just plain bad
advice in an objective and engineering sense - here's why:

ANY crossover that utilizes electrolytic caps (and many do to achieve
large values of capacitance) be they mere standard electrolytic caps,
electrolytic "non-polar" types, "audio" electrolytic, or the above
bypassed with film caps (the last being the best compromise short of the
following...) can be objectively and often audibly improved upon merely
by swapping out the electrolytics for film and preferably polypropylene
type caps. It certainly can be measured, I have found that it is fairly
easy to hear in a speaker that happens to have good basic drivers.
Obviously, this is most obvious when it happens in the tweeter circuit.

SOME xovers use the DCR of one or more inductors to achieve a desired
result (effectively a series resistance without having to buy a
resistor). In replacing these add a suitable resistance in series with
the high quality inductor. Those that do NOT use series resistance to
adjust the xover response will often benefit from their replacement by
an inductor that is lower DCR and has better characteristics across the
frequency spectrum - not all inductors are the same when measured across
a wide spectrum.

Almost any iron core "standard" commercial inductor will not perform as
well as a high quality air core of the same value. Replace it - it is
likely to be measureable and audible.

MOST xovers are built to be reasonably effective for the absolute lowest
price point that the manuafacturer can stand. The reasons for this are
multiple and somewhat self evident.

MANY xovers actually do not provide the optimal result from a given set
of drivers, just one that is sufficient to sell the units at the price
point given. So, it is possible to get or design a better xover that
sounds better and measures better than the stock one - it is certaintly
plausible.

Even the lowly Yamaha NS-10s will audibly benefit from these changes -
the results are also measureable. FYI, they used cheapo caps in the
xovers...

If you can't or don't hear any difference from the changes - and the A/B
"test" suggested is not a bad idea - then obviously there is no benefit
to buying expensive parts, or using better (or heavier gauge) wire either.

But there is little doubt that many commercial speakers will definitely
benefit from merely swapping out the stock xover components for higher
grade parts - film caps being the first and most important change, imho.
How much your speaker will benefit vs. changes elsewhere in the system
is a horserace and depends on all sorts of things that we can't know or
tell about using just words on a newsgroup.

Regards,

_-_-bear

"But there is little doubt that many commercial speakers will definitely
benefit from merely swapping out the stock xover components for higher
grade parts - film caps being the first and most important change, imho.
How much your speaker will benefit vs. changes elsewhere in the system is
a horserace and depends on all sorts of things that we can't know or tell
about using just words on a newsgroup."

Nice theory, how can we confirm it? I think it was in electronic gear
where a listening alone test was done where replacing cheap caps with
tweeky ones made no difference, or it might have been speakers. In any
case this exact theory was being tested. You mention the multiple factors
that could be at work, you neglected to mention those that are related to
false perception generation not existing in the signal as it reaches the
ears. In many listening alone tests this proved to be the critical factor
for any number of proposed theoretical effects.

wrote:

"But there is little doubt that many commercial speakers will definitely
benefit from merely swapping out the stock xover components for higher
grade parts - film caps being the first and most important change, imho.
How much your speaker will benefit vs. changes elsewhere in the system is
a horserace and depends on all sorts of things that we can't know or tell
about using just words on a newsgroup."

Nice theory, how can we confirm it? I think it was in electronic gear
where a listening alone test was done where replacing cheap caps with
tweeky ones made no difference, or it might have been speakers. In any
case this exact theory was being tested. You mention the multiple factors
that could be at work, you neglected to mention those that are related to
false perception generation not existing in the signal as it reaches the
ears. In many listening alone tests this proved to be the critical factor
for any number of proposed theoretical effects.

============================================

Did the original post say anything about what the owner of the
DQ-20 actually hoped to accomplish by changing the capacitors?
The first thing I would do with a DQ-20 or DQ-10 is to check the
woofer. At these speakers' current age, the woofers'
polyurethane foam surrounds are probably deteriorated and
flaccid, if not actually cracked and broken. If there is
distortion or fuzziness, the cause is almost certainly NOT the
crossover, but a woofer that is in need of repair.

Take care of the big stuff first; diddling with capacitors isn't
worth doing if the woofer is bum.

wrote:
"But there is little doubt that many commercial speakers will definitely
benefit from merely swapping out the stock xover components for higher
grade parts - film caps being the first and most important change, imho.
How much your speaker will benefit vs. changes elsewhere in the system is
a horserace and depends on all sorts of things that we can't know or tell
about using just words on a newsgroup."

Nice theory, how can we confirm it? I think it was in electronic gear
where a listening alone test was done where replacing cheap caps with
tweeky ones made no difference, or it might have been speakers. In any
case this exact theory was being tested. You mention the multiple factors
that could be at work, you neglected to mention those that are related to
false perception generation not existing in the signal as it reaches the
ears. In many listening alone tests this proved to be the critical factor
for any number of proposed theoretical effects.

You can confirm it by trying it yourself.

Feel free to use any of the measurement tools that are presently
available to hobbyists via the computer or other hardware. If you need
to measure things to believe your ears?

No matter what, it will not hurt to change out the caps.

If it makes you happy, and permits you to sleep at night, think of it as
a "tune up" for your car - wires, oil, filters, etc...

Imho, in many cases the replacement of an electrolytic cap with a film
cap will be easy to hear - quite frankly I can't imagine why anyone
"testing" this wouldn't hear it assuming reasonable test conditions and
that the quality of the rest of the signal chain was sufficient.

Get ye a pair of Yamaha NS-10s and try it with that speaker - I know
from past experience that it is easy to hear with that speaker. And,
I'm sure you will agree there is nothing "special" about them.

(of course, as the next poster suggested all the drivers must be in
proper working order - that is the first order of biz...)

_-_-bear

_-_-bear

"You can confirm it by trying it yourself.

Feel free to use any of the measurement tools that are presently available
to hobbyists via the computer or other hardware. If you need to measure
things to believe your ears?"

As mentioned before, listening alone testing is able to exclude those
factors generated in the brain not existing in the signal reaching the
brain. I know differences can be introduced by kinds of caps, this is not
the question that listening alone asks, it is the question about which
differences rise above the threshold of being able to hear them as being
different. On an absolute basis any two bits of hifi gear or product will
be measured to be different, our ability to do so far surpassing the
ability of the ear to hear it. One should believe one's ears indeed, as
is the case in listening alone tests which could not detect types of caps
as different.

wrote:

"You can confirm it by trying it yourself.

Feel free to use any of the measurement tools that are presently available
to hobbyists via the computer or other hardware. If you need to measure
things to believe your ears?"

As mentioned before, listening alone testing is able to exclude those
factors generated in the brain not existing in the signal reaching the
brain. I know differences can be introduced by kinds of caps, this is not
the question that listening alone asks, it is the question about which
differences rise above the threshold of being able to hear them as being
different. On an absolute basis any two bits of hifi gear or product will
be measured to be different, our ability to do so far surpassing the
ability of the ear to hear it. One should believe one's ears indeed, as
is the case in listening alone tests which could not detect types of caps
as different.

You are welcome to believe what you have read about "the case in
listening tests alone..." as you wish.

If you would like to cite these "tests" including the specific and
precise test conditions - which would include a list of the equipment
and the in-room acoustic response tests that were made prior to and
after testing (to establish the *measurable* and *objective* acoustic &
electronic parameters) as well as the similar tests that were done on
the electronic equipment, that would be great... then we'd all have a
pretty good idea of the *meaning* of these tests...

Oh, you say that they didn't *publish* this sort of information?
humorous comment How very "scientific" that is... /humorous comment
It's not like such tests are terribly exotic or difficult to do these
days, now is it?

I presume that the reason that 'no one does this sort of pre-test
testing' is that 'it's not necessary?' And that is because the
*presumption* is that any measured 'artifacts' are either 'below
audibility' or will not 'effect the results of the test(s)'??

It really isn't too difficult to hear the difference between an
electrolytic cap and a film cap on a tweeter of a reasonably high
quality tweeter... dunno if you could hear it on a DQ-20 or not, haven't
tried it myself.

_-_-bear

"You are welcome to believe what you have read about "the case in
listening tests alone..." as you wish.

If you would like to cite these "tests" including the specific and precise
test conditions - which would include a list of the equipment and the
in-room acoustic response tests that were made prior to and after testing
(to establish the *measurable* and *objective* acoustic & electronic
parameters) as well as the similar tests that were done on the electronic
equipment, that would be great... then we'd all have a pretty good idea of
the *meaning* of these tests... "

You go first, as it was you that made the assertions that certain caps can
be easily herd, based on one's subjective experience one presumes. If you
value such info as above then it should be established in your example
likewise. We can add one critical parameter worthy of note, was it done
blinded or not.